The Nineteenth Byte

wizzwizz4

7:00 PM

Let me guess: Made with 3D Paint.

Tempted, but not that tempted.

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem I got it down to 48 now. Very happy with the results

Pavel

@wizzwizz4 It's been around since before Paint 3D. Also, it's not 3D.

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard Did you see my comment?

Wheat Wizard

Yes, I'm working one out

Pavel

I have a ninjacat coffee mug

DJMcMayhem

7:05 PM

I have a Shakespearian Insults coffee mug

Wheat Wizard

The reason those are not on the wiki is back when I wrote the wiki I thought it would be obvious. And it may be obvious to some people but it is no longer obvious to me.

DJMcMayhem

It was never obvious to me

I would have used a "Greater than 0" snippet in my answer if I knew how to make it

Scratch that

Wheat Wizard

You just subtract one from the input on Greater than or equal to

DJMcMayhem

Greater than 0 doesn't help me at all

I was proud of ((({})[[]]))

Wheat Wizard

That was pretty cool

Riker

7:09 PM

@Pavel it looks exactly like a firefox though but ok

Wheat Wizard

You might be able to combine our methods to get a slightly better count

DJMcMayhem

[] is definitely my favorite atom. It's fun to abuse it in different contexts

Wheat Wizard

I need to explain mine first though

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard Out of curiosity, is it obvious to you how my solution works? I didn't post an explanation, just a whitespace formatted version. I wonder how readable that is to someone familiar with brain-flak but not my answer

Wheat Wizard

I could "read" it in a few seconds, it took me a little while longer to understand what you were doing

Pavel

7:12 PM

@Riker ಠ_ಠ

Riker

/shrug

@Pavel you're a ms "VIP" right?

Pavel

@Riker No. My dad works at MS.

Riker

ah ok

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard Ping me when you post an explanation and I'll take a stab at it

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem Added leq to the wiki

Its the only 52 byte one but I can't beat it

wizzwizz4

7:16 PM

@Pavel What's your favourite MS product?

Pavel

@wizzwizz4 Depending on your definition of "product", C#.

wizzwizz4

@Pavel Why?

Pavel

@wizzwizz4 Because C# is bloody amazing that's why.

wizzwizz4

@Pavel What's so good about it?

What does it do that BrainF*** doesn't? ;-p

Poke

apologies if this was already posted but...

Pavel

7:18 PM

@Poke That onebox is effing huge

Poke

yeah it's a bigger comic

Pavel

@Poke That means no one box please

@wizzwizz4 Imagine if Java had an extremely expansive standard library, supported functional programming concepts (like such useful functions as "map" or "reduce"), and wasn't as stupidly verbose.

Poke

@Pavel crap next time i'll just link

the edit button is gone

DJMcMayhem

@Poke I'm going to trash this to get rid of massive onebox, but if you repost https://i.stack.imgur.com/Cqesc.png it should be smaller

Dennis

Eh, it's fine. It's only slightly larger than the dinosaur GIF, about as on-topic, and a lot more related to current events.

DJMcMayhem

7:23 PM

Oh, should I not then?

Dennis

Not saying you can't, but I wouldn't.

Pavel

@Dennis Really? The dinosaur only takes up about a third of my screen, as opposed to all of it.

DJMcMayhem

→ 1 message moved to Trash

That looks way smaller on my screen

Pavel

now it's roughly dinosaur sized

DJMcMayhem

Pro tip: If you upload it to imgur, you can append s, m, or l to the end of the link (before .png) to choose how large of a onebox you want

Wheat Wizard

7:28 PM

@DJMcMayhem Exlpanitino up

DJMcMayhem

I suspect that @WheatWizard Has slowly been taking the brain-cells that were previously dedicated to "Spelling" and "Deciding what avatars to use", and dedicating them to Brain-flak golfing skills

10

Pavel

Exlpanitino sounds like the name of either a rare subatomic particle or something served at a fancy bar.

betseg

meltdown_and_spectre_2x.png

mınxomaτ

@DJMcMayhem Went to xkcd. Now I'm addicted to desert golfing ....

Wheat Wizard

How much rep do you need for all the privileges if ppcg gets designed?

DJMcMayhem

7:43 PM

25K I think?

Pavel

@WheatWizard More than I currently have, which is why I'd rather the design not come for a little while.

Wheat Wizard

Oh wow. I guess I don't need more rep then.

New Main Posts

1

Q: Cribbage Scoring

My brothers and I like to play Cribbage. Now, the scoring rules for Cribbage are somewhat complicated, and I often worry that I'm not counting my score correctly. Therefore, your job is to write a program that will correctly score my hand. Scoring There are two ways to score points in Cribbag...

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem You just beat me to hammering that quesiton :)

totallyhuman

lol

wizzwizz4

7:51 PM

@totallyhuman So close...

totallyhuman

i think i'm gonna get an upvote soon enough though

but it is unnerving

unless somebody finds a shorter string...

betseg

8:08 PM

CMC: print this:

@ĀȀЀࠀက 䀀耀𐀀𠀀񀀀򀀀􀀀

AdmBorkBork

I don't think it's showing correct on my side. There's a definite pattern up to 32768, but then it just kinda jumps around in the 55000 range.

betseg

#include <stdio.h>
#include <wchar.h>
#include <locale.h>

int main() {
    int i;
    setlocale(LC_ALL, "en_US.utf8");

    for(i=0; i<=32; i++)
        putwchar(1<<i);

    return 0;
}

it puts the necessary unicode byte before the actual character

DJMcMayhem

@betseg 48 bytes: Try it online!

betseg

nice

AdmBorkBork

8:24 PM

Dangit, technet seems to be having trouble, so I can't lookup wchar_t for usage

dzaima

@betseg SOGL, 8 6 bytes

betseg

nicer

Conor O'Brien

CMC: Given a list, concatenate the list with itself. Be obscure.

DJMcMayhem

@betseg Jelly, 6 bytes: 21Ḷ2*Ọ

@ConorO'Brien Example?

flawr

@ConorO'Brien does haskell count as obscure? :D

Pavel

8:31 PM

@ConorO'Brien n=>n.AddRange(n)

Conor O'Brien

@DJMcMayhem [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] -> [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Mr. Xcoder

Jelly, 1 byte ;

Conor O'Brien

@flawr obscure relative to the language :)

flawr

@ConorO'Brien Haskell 8 bytes: ("*>"*>)

Mr. Xcoder

Are there any python-based esolang writers around which have languages on tio?

Conor O'Brien

8:32 PM

@Pavel C#?

Pavel

@ConorO'Brien Yep.

Conor O'Brien

so far flawr's is most obscure in that it['s the only one that I don't know how it works :P

Pavel

Takes a System.Collections.Generic.IList.

DJMcMayhem

@ConorO'Brien Here's something obscure: V 12 bytes: O a:~DJ@"gJ

Cookie to anyone who can explain it

Mr. Xcoder

in talk.tryitonline.net, 3 mins ago, by Mr. Xcoder

@Dennis I am planning to ask you to add a language to TiO. Where should the source code of the program be read from? CLA #1 or from another file?

Conor O'Brien

8:34 PM

@Mr.Xcoder he can do whatever, but the source is usually given as a file

Mr. Xcoder

Like, read the source code from "code.txt" or something?

Conor O'Brien

Try it online!

that's the usual bash wrapper for a language

flawr

@ConorO'Brien Do you know some haskell?

Conor O'Brien

@flawr I know some haskell. not well enough to write it

AdmBorkBork

Not an answer, but I encountered some neat behavior

Conor O'Brien

8:36 PM

that's fun, took me a second

Pavel

@AdmBorkBork wat

flawr

@ConorO'Brien The used operator has signature (*>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b In my case f a == [a] and f b = [b] (list with entries of type a/b). So the string (the left argument) could be anything of length 2.

betseg

@ConorO'Brien py, 30: __import__("operator").iconcat (needs input twice) Try it online!

Mr. Xcoder

needs input twice – Really?

betseg

@ConorO'Brien py, 12 Try it online!

Conor O'Brien

8:37 PM

@betseg ...

AdmBorkBork

@Pavel The right-hand $args[0] stringifies to "1 2 3"

Pavel

@betseg lambda i:i+i

betseg

34 secs ago, by betseg

@ConorO'Brien py, 12 Try it online!

Conor O'Brien

@flawr oh neat

@betseg As one doesn't answer with ungolfed Java code to a code-golf, one shouldn't use the obvious, boring solutions for this type of question :P

Pavel

So this is a popcon

betseg

8:39 PM

"Be obscure." __import__("operator").iconcat seems obscure to me

DJMcMayhem

Anyone want to take a stab at figuring out my V answer?

Conor O'Brien

@betseg how so? it's importing an operator called "concat" which is what the challenge asks for (albeit in a dubious input manner)

betseg

its an icon cat

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem It begins inserting on the line above the input, and... escape is never pressed, so it doesn't stop inserting?

I'm guessing it doesn't work in regular Vim

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel Nope

Here's a verbose version: O<C-k>a:<esc>~DJ@"gJ

Pavel

8:42 PM

@DJMcMayhem Ah, I thought the second character was a space.

DJMcMayhem

You're correct that it doesn't work in regular vim though

Althought the majority of it does

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Well hey, I learned about <C-k> atleast, so that's neat.

Vim, 5 bytes: v$y$p

Vim, 3 bytes: Dpp

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel I know the goal is obfuscation, but you can just do y$ instead of v$y and P instead of $p

Conor O'Brien

Well, in a language I'm developing Outers#`#

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem I tried Y instead of v$y but it didn't quite work.

There's not a magical put-without-trailing-newline is there?

DJMcMayhem

8:49 PM

Y != y$

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Yeah, Y copies the whole line including the newline.

I realized that now.

DJMcMayhem

Anywho, you could also do YPgJ

Or YPJx

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem What does J do? I've played around but I can't quite figure it out.

DJMcMayhem

Join

Pavel

What annoys me is that copying with D doesn't copy the newline if it's the last line, but copying with Y does.

DJMcMayhem

8:54 PM

That's because Y = y_ and D = d$

You're not the only one annoyed by the inconsistency

Y is more equivalent to dd except yanking instead of deleting

Pavel

Is dd d_ then?

DJMcMayhem

Yes

Generally, <uppercase operator> == <lowercase operator>$, and Y is the exception

Pavel

Wait, I think I'm confused by what _ is. v_ doesn't select the whole line, but from the cursor to the start of the line, like v0 does.

DJMcMayhem

Hmm, good question

Pavel

V doesn't appear to be v<any_mod> but its own thing for selecting the whole line

DJMcMayhem

8:58 PM

@Pavel Ah, here's the distinction. _ is linewise, so it doesn't matter where it's going, it isn't equivalent to v<anything>. It's more equivalent to V<anything>. So V_ selects the line and grabs the ending newline

Even 0v$ isn't equivalent

Does that kinda make sense?

Pavel

Yes. It's annoying but it does make sense.

DJMcMayhem

Actually, here's a better way of putting it. 0 and _ both go to the beginning of the line. But d0 and d_ are different. d0 == v0d and d_ == V0d (or just Vd)

Pavel

And y_ follows the same rules as d_.

DJMcMayhem

Yep.

Pavel

Someone should rewrite Vim, fix all the odd inconsistencies. It'll be annoying at first but I think better in the long run.

Kinda like the Python 2->3 transition.

DJMcMayhem

9:04 PM

Personally, I like having Y == y_ much more than Y = y$

I rarely use y$, and I do yy all the time, so it's nice to have it faster

Pavel

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ yeah maybe

Although come to think of it, I use dd far more than D. D could be d_.

Also, I have long believed that j and k are backwards.

Esolanging Fruit

9:26 PM

I just use the arrow keys instead of HJKL

Zacharý

So, apparently spanish stack exchange has a golfing-game: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/66153/translation-golf

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý Yeah.

I knew about that! That's unusual.

Zacharý

How is that objective in any way, shape, or form ?

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý If it means the same.

Zacharý

I mean how can people determine if it "means the same"? There could be tiny minutia that can't be translated or something.

Mr. Xcoder

9:30 PM

Can someone link me to the meta post which clearly defines "programming language"?

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem care to explain your V answer to the CMC? I don't think anyone is getting it.

Mr. Xcoder

Nvm I found this.

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel Haha, sure. Give me a minute

Pavel

V is the only esolang I care about learning since I can actually apply it in practice when using Vim. And I do use Vim, just mainly the more basic functionality.

Esolanging Fruit

I'm reading the spec for Quylthulg right now and it's ridiculous

> Now, I claim that Quylthulg is Turing-complete [...] I shall perform a series of short vignettes, each intended to invoke the spirit of a different forest animal or supermarket checkout animal. Then I shall spray you with a dose of a new household aerosol which I have invented and which I am marketing under the name "Doubt-B-Gone".

DJMcMayhem

9:39 PM

O                       " Open up insert mode on the line above us
 <C-k>                  " Insert a diacritic
      a:                " ä
        <esc>           " Return to normal mode
             ~          " Convert the character under the cursor to uppercase
              DJ        " Delete this line
                @"      " Run the line we just deleted
                  gJ    " Join the two lines together

Pavel

Purely functional, prevents recursion, only loop is foreach, goto

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel ^

Pavel

Yep, I see it.

DJMcMayhem

(Hint: Ä == YP in vim)

Esolanging Fruit

Goto is used to make cyclic data structures, which can then be iterated over with foreach

Pavel

9:42 PM

@DJMcMayhem Why <C-k>a:<esc>~ and not Ä<esc>?

Is Ä not one byte in V?

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel For obfuscation :P

If golfiness was the goal, it would just be ä$

flawr

@DJMcMayhem Golfiness is always the goal! :)

DJMcMayhem

1 hour ago, by Conor O'Brien

CMC: Given a list, concatenate the list with itself. Be obscure.

New Main Posts

1

Q: A Dance of Many Dimensions

Challenge Given a n-dimensional array of integers and a permutation of the first n natural numbers, permute the array dimensions accordingly. Details This challenge is inspired by MATLABs permute. demonstration The permutation is given as a list of integers, e.g. [1,3,2] means 1 gets mapped to...

code-golf array-manipulation permutations

flawr

@DJMcMayhem Did you see my solution? :D

DJMcMayhem

9:44 PM

In haskell?

flawr

yep:)

DJMcMayhem

I saw it, but haskell is about as readable to me as brain-flak is to a monkey

Mr. Xcoder

^

flawr

You should definitely try it:)

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Constructing a character like that isn't creative though, it's like if I obfuscated "Hello World" as "H"+"e"+"l"+"l"+"o"+" "+"W"+"o"+"r"+"l"+"d"

DJMcMayhem

9:48 PM

Except that way is immediately obvious what it means.

Could you tell what i<C-k>a:<esc>~ means?

The unprintables aren't rendering, detracting from my point lol

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Could I get that in verbose mode?

DJMcMayhem

Done

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Well sure. I know ~ is capitalize and <C-k> is like vim-compose-key.

DJMcMayhem

If you were't familiar with vim, it would be difficult to figure that out

Pavel

Well, change case, not capitalize.

DJMcMayhem

9:52 PM

toggle

totallyhuman

swap

Pavel

I typed <C-k><C-c> in insert mode and vim freaked way out

totallyhuman

finally did it! :P

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem how does ~ behave if you select multiple characters of different case? My computer's dead and I can't test.

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel It just swaps the case of every one of them

There's also g? which is the same thing, but as an operator

Pavel

10:00 PM

@DJMcMayhem What does operator mean? And how would I make an entire selection all-caps?

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel An operator is any command that takes a motion afterwards (so y, d, c, etc. are all operators). You can also define your own operators (which is largely what V does).

To make a selection all uppercase, use U, lowercase use u

And gu and gU are also operators, so you could do gU<motion> rather than v<motion>U

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Ah. Thanks!

Laikoni

@totallyhuman Congrats, I also got mine today. :)

Mr. Xcoder

Congratulations guys @Laikoni @totallyhuman!

DLosc

Congrats! \o/

Mr. Xcoder

10:21 PM

\o/ I can multiply two integers using my esolang :)

Try it online! (I suggest closing the header and footer)

DLosc

So... are we going to do anything with the 2017 time capsule? The Google Docs link seems to be dead, but perhaps @Pavel still has the list of languages somewhere?

Zacharý

The only thing that should be remembered is Tetris in GoL

Laikoni

@flawr Nice one, I was confused for a second. :D

Esolanging Fruit

10:41 PM

@Mego Why doesn't ⌠2%⌡8╓ print out the first 8 odd numbers in Actually (1 3 5 7 9 11)?

Hmm... 8⌠2%⌡╓ works as expected

Mr. Xcoder

@EsolangingFruit The first 8 odd numbers [...] (0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14)

Esolanging Fruit

@Mr.Xcoder Too late to edit now :(

Anonymous

@EsolangingFruit 2 reasons: 1) The argument order for ╓ is reversed. The function should be TOS. 2) The argument order for % is reversed - it should be 2@%.

Anonymous

8⌠2@%⌡╓ works as expected

Anonymous

You can also do &1 instead of 2@% - bitwise magic

Esolanging Fruit

10:44 PM

Ahh, ok - the docs say pop f, x, which means the function should be first

because popping order

forgot about that

Anonymous

Yep

Anonymous

Stack-based will get you

flawr

@Laikoni that was the intention, I'm glad it worked :D

Esolanging Fruit

@Mego My main golfing language is CJam, whose documentation uses the opposite order

CJam has some of the best documentation I've seen, since it covers most edge cases, describes all the overloads, and includes examples

Anonymous

Actually's documentation will eventually be good :P

Esolanging Fruit

10:51 PM

Yep

"eventually"

Anonymous

Sherlock has been working on it for a while

Esolanging Fruit

We need a new golfing language called "eventually"

Maybe not a golfing language, but it could be similar to Snowflake

Pavel

@DLosc yeah, I ran out of space in Google drive and deleted it accidentally

Esolanging Fruit

I liked the idea of Snowflake, but not really the implementation (it relies too much on this metaphor of numbers and a linear command list which don't depend on the highly nested nature of the list data types)

Anonymous

@EsolangingFruit Maybe a language based on extremely lazy evaluation?

Anonymous

10:55 PM

Also dibs

Pavel

Also, I forgot about it entirely.

Esolanging Fruit

@Mego Have lazy evaluation but don't make it pure functional

a = 4
def compute(x):
    return x + 1
b = compute(a)
a = 5

print(b) # 6

Something like that

DLosc

@Pavel I'm sure most of the people who submitted languages know what they submitted, so we could still do something with them if anyone's interested...

But if not, at least it inspired me to make a neat (IMHO) language.