@Bysshed I think homological algebra would be an advanced version of what i'm going for, you can see the contents on page 5 of the pdf here. I am currently in chapter 2, there are lots of exercises to make sure you learn the material.
I'm kind of thinking about this like they do on Worldbuilding for blog posts - each new post gets an "event" status for a set number of days, and there's one meta post which lists all the blog posts.
@JyrkiLahtonen I guess you're talking here about an event in the community bulletin rather than simply about featured post? (Of course, it's up to the mods whether they add events to the bulletin. Ping also for @heather in case this is relevant.)
> Events can be created with a start date and time, an end date and time, a simple title, and a link to something somewhere on the network. Current or upcoming events are listed, with those starting or ending nearest to the current time shown first.
My main point is that event in a community bulletin does not actually need to link to a post on meta, the target can be something else. (At least, if I understood correctly how community bulletin works.)
@MartinSleziak, @heather We are discussing this in the mod chatroom. After all, I'm a relative noob mod. Others may see some bad consequences that I have overlooked. No, I didn't think about using the Community Bulletin. Well, I didn't know that one existed.
It looks like the other mods are not as interested in giving this enterprise a featured status. We'll see.
Community bulletin is that thing where featured meta posts are displayed (among other things) - so I though you meant this by "featured box".
Anyway, since you say there's ongoing discussion about this in some private moderators' room, I am pretty sure you have enough experienced users there to judge various possibilities.
@heather I think that @JyrkiLahtonen 's post on meta has been very generous. Meta math is to be about issues occurring on mse, or thoughts about, features proposed for MSE. I agree with @Asaf. You are hi-jacking the meta.mse platform to promote was is, essentially, a chat room (at a particular time.).
not really @amWhy - first, I'm not "hijacking the meta.mse platform" - people can ignore the posts if they want. second, yeah, i'm promoting a chatroom on m.se - how the heck is that on related to m.se/a problem? third, i'm willing to reduce the number of meta posts, but this was two meta posts about a. whether people'd be interested (upvoted, so people want to see this on the site), b. what volunteers there were (again upvoted), and then the third post advertising the first course
which with what Jyrki and I thought about would be the max number of meta posts.
how is that "a lot" or "a problem" or "hijacking" in any way shape or form? plenty of meta sites use it to advertise other projects:
P.SE uses it to advertise AMAs/chat sessions
Worldbuilding uses it to advertise blog posts
etc, etc.
I think you all are making a mountain out of a molehill with this.
note: in first message instead of "that on related" it should be "that not related"
@heather Don't dismiss me like that, @heather. That is unbecoming of you to do. How do we know that one volunteer to "teach" calculus, (who has never taught a course, and has only worked with individual users, whose focus has been on Calc II, and not so much on student's first exposure to calculus) is sufficient?
@amWhy I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just saying I think everyone's getting more worked up about this than they should be. You're jumping from issue to issue. First I'm hijacking meta, now I'm using untrustworthy volunteers, what next?
a. "upvoted so people want to see this on the site". That would be fair if you offered an option for those who'd rather not see it on meta, where the votes would have likely been higher."
SimplyBeautifulArt is a trustworthy individual who will be helped by someone who is doing their PhD studies. If you don't think they're trustworthy, feel free to ask questions of them!
@amWhy If you don't want to see it, you downvote. There are almost no downvotes on that question.
Ditto for the second question.
And then for the third question, bam, everyone gets upset.
(well, okay, a couple of users got upset - most users didn't downvote)
that was going to be basically the last post under Jyrki's plan, again.
Heather, you are mis-interpreting what you see as "upvotes" ~ agreement that meta be used (overused) with respect to a chat-room. Meta is about the main MsE site, not about it's chatrooms.
or see for example Martin Sleziak's comment on the third meta post:
> But in the past, when you had an idea on some activity to do in chat, meta seemed to be the natural place to discuss that suggestion - RFC: Chat Seminars, (And I'll admit I am probably the most frequent poster of suggestions of the form: "Could we maybe use chat for this and that.")
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude at all, I'm just a bit frustrated by the situation =/
@Heather, you've got your mind made up, and see only the positives (expressed to you), dismissing those who are not telling you not to form what you want, but the ways in which you are doing it. Secondly, I've already read through the many comments a mod/ Martin, have made. You never did address the issue that just because on volunteers to teach a course doesn't mean they can teach it. You have absolutely no quality assurance.
which is it, hijacking meta, dismissiveness, quality assurance - to be honest, you're kinda slinging mud at me right now, or at least that's how you come across.
i get there's problems, and i know it's not all worked out
@amWhy, if you want we can talk about quality assurance.
i don't mind what we talk about, i'd just prefer not topic-jumping.
i freely admit i don't completely know how to do some good quality assurance. my thoughts here are sort of along the lines of 1. there's a book, so giant errors will hopefully be noticed pretty fast. 2. there should be at least 2 people teaching per class, so they'll catch the mistakes of the other. 3. outside users can point out errors - that's why it's good to have the classes in the topic chatrooms. 4. for this first class, two users volunteered that i'd consider fairly trustworthy.
if you don't think their trustworthy, please tell me so =)
Prior to advertising, you've really failed to filter volunteers for capabilities and experience teaching, prior to setting the room up. I'm simply suggesting you are a tad naive. That's not meant as an insult! I see the energy you're putting forth, which more than compensates.
yes, i know, which is why for this first course i specifically saw two users that i consider fairly trustworthy. this is definitely something i need to improve, and yeah, i'm definitely on the naive side =) however, i found it important to start at least one course to keep momentum and interest going.
plus, I figured the other three built-ins i already mentioned would help act as a safety stop.
@heather I'll paraphrase something Daniel Sank said to me: don't worry about doing things perfectly the first time, but do them lots of times. That way, with each failure you'll improve a bit and after a few times, you'll get a decent result. After lots of times, you'll have something great, as opposed to eventually getting something good, but not so great
@heather who is the second user that you consider capable of teaching Calculus (17 year old Simply, and ..... ?) Note that "trustworthy" and "very very good at calculus" are a very weak basis for qualifying as a teacher. I'd be happy to step in/supervise, whatever is needed, but if you think everything is already covered, I'll let it go.
By Saturday, I'd suggest that there be available a "rough syllabus" and the identification of a text or other predefined readings, and the encouragement that "students" know mathjax well enough to participate, and that "students" also download "chat jax" so they can use "mathjax" in the chat room.
@amWhy As a teacher, none - that's why I only agreed to help. As of this coming term (starting in a few weeks), I'll be helping in undergrad physics problem classes (don't know which, except that it's more likely to be third or fourth year classes). As such, I view this as part of my learning how to teach
And I'd like to hear @SimplyBeautifulArt respond to the same question: What experience have you had, teaching a Calc course, to numerous students, one hour each week. Simply is going to need to pin down the curriculum, the resources (text and/or websites and/or pdfs, and or?) which is typically covered in Calc 1, and create a syllabus.
@SimplyBeautifulArt What? You upset that someone may actually be concerned about your capability to teach? I tutored from high-school through my undergraduate career. That is not at all like actual teaching, which I've done for 25 years now. So, don't be terribly overconfident.
@amWhy Nah, I've just picked up the habit of saying it when I find a lot of chat I kind of have to read lol. Kind of a chore is all, and "bleh" to chores.
@amWhy Yup, I definitely expect bumps in the road. Just trying to be a little optimistic now that things are rolling somewhere.
Well, you're going to need to learn how to do this if you're going to "teach" in a chat forum. It's not the same thing as doing one-on-one teaching (unless heather is the only student). Have you considered the material (and sources/outside readings you'll assign, and the material you'll cover (say just through Calc I)? Good ideas, like heather's don't correlate to easy implementation. The focus on the first class should be to exemplify something successful happening. I'm not a nay-sayer.
@SimplyBeautifulArt That'll be great, at the start, this coming Saturday! If you want to run any ideas by me, in terms of material you'd like to structure the course with, I'd be happy to take a look-see :)
@SimplyBeautifulArt Oh my! Believe me, I know that you know the material covered in a basic calculus class thoroughly. And I have never doubted your trustworthiness. I guess all I should say is that I'll make it a point to stop in each week, and before the class begins... and from then on, if you need to consult me with respect pedagogy (the "art" of teaching ha ha), I'll be here.
@amWhy I'm in a similar position, teaching for going-on 20 years now. But I've got to say that your reasonable concern is coming across more like hostile objection. What's the "threat"/worst-case scenario you're seeing develop if the coordinator's overwhelmed/underqualified? (That's not a rhetorical question--sincerely curious.)
I mean, I feel like this whole endeavor (mark II, starting with @heather, I mean) has been well above-board in terms of "these are volunteers at various stages of experience, this whole thing's an experiment, who knows what'll happen?"
@nitsua60 Never meant or insinuated any "hostile objection". You clearly don't know me very well. @SimplyBeautifulArt will do fine, and in the case things become overwhelming, I'll be around to advise, as will @Mithrandir24601, to consult with, and/or make suggestions. So, given that you do not know me well, my only point is that if we are going to offer a "class", we need to ensure that the "students" involved don't get short-changed from what such a "class should cover."
@nitsua60 So it's a big deal that your understanding of the "class" is made clear to the students who hope they'll cover all of Calc I. On Saturday, please post your last comment in the chosen chatroom, at 22:00 UTC. That's all I've been saying.
I don't think a comment from me's really the right medium. I'd say that the various room descriptions for any of these should clearly state something along the lines of my fictionalized quote up there, and should link to one or more of the metas describing the whole project.
@nitsua60 This comment should also appear, if I understand this to represent heather's perspective, in her last meta post: "these are volunteers (name them) at various stages of experience, this whole thing is an experiment, who knows what'll happen", and only then, she asks for volunteer students.
And if it is not heather's perspective, stop taking such a flippant attitude about using potential students as guinea pigs. Everyone should know upfront what to expect, in particular, I don't want "students" to be misled if this is all an experiment. That's horrible you suggest as much.
@amWhy I feel like there's a big disconnect going on here, but I don't know where. Specifically, I don't know what you're reading when you feel I'm being "flippant." Can you clue me in?
I was not addressing you, @heather. I was addressing @nitsua60's comment "I feel like this whole endeavor (mark II, starting with @heather, I mean) has been well above-board in terms of "these are volunteers at various stages of experience, this whole thing's an experiment, who knows what'll happen?"" I have not gleaned that from anything you have said, heather. I specifically said, inmy last comment, "And if this is not heather's perspective....." then addressing nitsua60
yes, i know you weren't addressing me. please @amWhy hold on a sec. nitsua60 wasn't being flippant and they're right that I've been trying to be very clear that this is an experiment, not a "qualified university" or any of that nonsense.
I want volunteers to be qualified but in spite of whatever I do, there's always a chance they aren't.
it's not about students being "guinea pigs", it's just life on the internet.
that's all.
i have to go now, i'll read the rest of the transcript later.
Personally, I'd stay away from the "student"-"teacher"-"class" nomenclature in the first place. Many of the discussions in what I'm calling "mark II" have been around self-study, tutorial-style work with a "coordinator" setting the objectives. Perhaps that would also tone down some of the clash/concern over expectations?
I should probably stay out of this discussion, so as to not be banned again. However, I agree. Having students and teachers makes no sense here. Especially considering that younger people might teach older people and different things. Plus, we aren't a school, lol.
I am being very clear here. I am looking out for the students who hope to learn basic Calculus by participating in the chatroom/"class" on calculus. Do not offer a class if you cannot assure them that they will learn Calculus. That's what I mean by not putting eager student's in jeopardy with an experiment. Say what you mean, directly, on Saturday. If you think of this as an experiment, let the students who you are experimenting with know that upfront.
@amWhy I have no real problem with any of this. I guess I just thought all of that was already clear. This is a completely untested model, medium, and population.
@amWhy To some extent, everything's an experiment. As @nitsua60 said (well, implied), you can think and think and think and come up with the perfect idea of how to do this, but the only way to know is to try. It'll probably take several attempts until we actually get it really properly, but it'll be a good optimisation as a result. Also, if anyone doesn't want me to help teaching, I don't mind (I won't take offence or anything), although I am very happy to try to help
@Mithrandir24601 As am I. As an experiment, it should not be called a class, the guides directing the study should not be considered teachers, but guides, and those participating should not be called "students" of the "class", because, by your own admission, it is none of those things. It is an experiment, which was not dealt with in heather's third meta post (calling it "class in basic calculus", with reference to "students").
people already help a great deal in teaching each other
and having a room for someone to tutor students isn't something that couldn't be considered
I agree that it cannot be called a class but let's face it
we aren't a formal institution
if someone wants to use that name for the sake of consistency and it's primarily a general plan of study for people to follow along with as resource material... then so what?
@Mithrandir24601 Unless the most recent meta post uses the word "experiment", and/or on Saturday, makes it explicit that those who want to learn calculus are being experimented on, or that this "class" is precisely, and nothing more and nothing less than, an experiment, I believe the "class" (as announced on meta) is deceptive.
but people are going to pick up on the fact that it isn't a formal class. It's just a room for helping with that subject ran by a specific individual with some general plans of study and scheduled activities
honestly though
do we want to open the possibility of non-accredited individuals conning others with their own classes?
granted
it's free so who cares?
(in terms of the possibility of people being 'conned')
@amWhy I'd disagree slightly here, but wouldn't have a problem if the naming was changed (also, I'm just like this - I ask "what does this involve?" and "what does so-and-so do?", not go "oh, they're a 'student' so they must do exactly this") - a class is a gathering of people where some people, called the 'teachers' teach others, called the 'students'. Yeah, it's a bit of an experiment in that 'parameters' need tuning (possibly a lot), but that and being a class aren't mutually exclusive
@Mithrandir24601 I'm hearing everyone's defense and characterizations in hopes of promoting the site, but these descriptions have not appeared elsewhere, not in the most recent post announcing the "class" and not in earlier discussions. I agree with most visions expressed here, but met
@Typhon What do you mean by 'non-accredited'? We've been through this before - the chat rooms being open should help mitigate this by a considerable margin, as does having multiple teachers. I can say this about all of MSE or PSE, yet they're still here
@Mithrandir24601, In any case, I believe these remarks should all be comments posted on Saturday, in the calculus chat room, at 22:00 UTC, to make much more explicit to interested "participant's, that this isn't to be taken for what a calculus class really is, and that it serves first and foremost, as an experiment.
@Mithrandir24601 Multiple "teachers" I thought you were suggesting you and Simply are not really "teachers, and that "students" are not really students, and yet, you fall back on "teachers." Neither you nor Simply are teachers, and there is no other multiples of "teachers".
