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00:00 - 05:0006:00 - 00:00

6:21 AM
@kviiri [Time of day]
Am I missing something here? rpg.stackexchange.com/a/101778/11660
I'm not sure I'm following exactly what the user is saying. I think they negotiated with their GM that they could have Instrument (Voice) proficiency in exchange for the use of Bardic Inspiration, Countercharm and Song of Rest, even as they seem fully aware that proficiency bonus won't stack...
I think there's 2 issues - one that controls how OP reacts to your answer, and one that controls how everyone else does.
For everyone else, the question (on a cursory reading) looks like "What's the point of being proficient in an instrument if it's always a Performance check anyway?" - which is a really good question, and your answer doesn't really address it.
For the OP, I honestly can't tell what they're asking, and I'm not at all sure they really know either.
That's something I honestly don't know the answer to. The tool proficiency thing in 5e is a jumbled mess in my opinion.
@Miniman Yeah, the edit seems to push it more towards balancing homebrew.
@kviiri Absolutely. And I'm happy to admit, when I looked at the question (way back when it was posted), I didn't really read it properly, just saw someone asking about Performance vs instrument proficiency, assumed it was that question which I've often wondered about, upvoted and moved on.
And I suspect I'm not the only one.
6:30 AM
I actually had to double-check upon reading that question - I could've sworn one requires proficiency with an instrument to play it.
Ah, looking at the edit history, it was that question when it was first posted.
Pretty much :)
Well, I'm sufficiently confused that I'm going to vote to close as unclear, and come up with some kind of comment asking for clarification.
I'll edit my answer to expand on Performance vs instrument proficiencies.
@Miniman I think you're absolutely right. I edited my answer anyway to include my take on instrument proficiencies.
@kviiri Nice, looks good to me.
> Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.
Maybe the point is that instrument proficiency lets you add your bonus even if you aren't proficient in Perform, so toll profs are like a subset of skills.
But that seems seriously weird.
6:43 AM
@Miniman Yeah, that's true as well.
I didn't add it, since the character in question is proficient in Performance already.
That's something that, subjectively, might need a bit of arm-twisting to get across to one's GM I think... I would guess at least my GM would raise an eyebrow if I insisted I'd get instrument proficiency for rolling a skill other than Performance.
@kviiri Yeah, that was me musing on "what the heck is the point of these proficiencies", not trying to add anything useful.
But by the rules: if one plays an instrument they're proficient with, they gain the bonus on any roll as long as it involves playing music, and nothing says music is always Performance in nature :)
@kviiri I actually meant the other way round - "I'm not proficient in Performance, but it doesn't matter cos I'm proficient in my instrument, so I get proficiency in Performance checks with it anyway".
@Miniman Ah yes, that was me musing on what I added :P
We're two people having three conversations! ^^
6:51 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +3 more: guidemesupplements.com/elite-male-extra/ by jackiejon on rpg.SE
We've had some discussions regarding the different paradigms of skill checks in different games among our RP group. I guess dilemmas like "I play music so it's perform, but I do it as a part of my disguise, so which do I roll?" aren't as often a part of DnD.
In Apocalypse World, it's usually the goal that matters, not the action itself: forcing someone to do something with a violent threat is rolled as Go Aggro if one is intent on carrying out the violence if declined, and Seduce/Manipulate if they're just bluffing.
@kviiri I'd suggest that they often are a part of D&D, D&D just doesn't provide any mechanism to resolve them :P
7:22 AM
Heh, yeah.
Well, most of the checks we run into are the few classic ones: perception to see if there's a trap and stealth for our rogue to hide.
The rest are considerably less common.
7:40 AM
user image
Fluffer Sif from Pupper Souls
Such rolling. Much Souls. Wow
8:08 AM
And I see the chosen undead is represented by a half-eaten apple. That seems about right.
I didn't realize the chosen undead was such a pushover
8:48 AM
@trogdor Depends who you ask.
they have died a lot
but they also killed a ton of powerful monster things so
Sif would say the undead is like a homing missile - you can dodge as much as you want, you're still going to die in the end.
kinda metal actually
1 hour later…
10:17 AM
@BESW confirmed. today is a delicious day for trade.
It occurs to me that some people may not get the punchline.
11:06 AM
how odd
11:23 AM
@trogdor well the ice cream attack trucks were a weird decision, but we're assuming the ice cream truck union had good reasons for it.
12:09 PM
@BESW speaking of that heat, i found out last week my cafe is serving cold brew coffee on ice. so good for days like today. i've been looking into starting to brew it at home.
would a small glass jug do OK as a vessel for brewing it in?
Sure. You just need something that holds water, and either something like a tea leaf infuser or a tea leaf strainer.
Put the coffee grounds in the jug of water, inside the infuser if you have one, and let it sit in the fridge for about a day.
If you don't have an infuser, you'll want to strain the grounds out when you're done steeping them.
happy monday!
@BESW I suppose that confirms it. The British should never have come to Australia
12:20 PM
@NautArch \o/
@Ben they adapted. but i agree based on other reasons. :P
@Ben @doppelgreener You could probably just put an "X" after "to" and that would always work.
@NautArch that is true.
12:36 PM
ugh, getting an aura scotoma
can't really see...wheeee
@doppelgreener other reasons are,.... fair
parents, don't let your kids engage in manifest destiny
it's admittedly a little late for that one
and unfortunately parents can't stop countries from colonizing places
12:53 PM
1 hour later…
2:06 PM
In DnD lore, is there any pre-existing way to accelerate a dragon's growth to adult?
I'm sure there's at least one plane where time moves faster than the Material.
Hm, there's an idea. I was thinking more along the lines of using magic to make it gain power faster.
the trivial solution is almost always a wish spell :p
Be a Kobold-Dragon?
Fastest way to Great Wyrm by RAW
Er, lore, not rules, right...
2:09 PM
@Yuuki lol
@kviiri why are you wanting this?
Wild Magic Sorcerer Dragon?
And repeatedly surge and hope for the aging effect?
@godskook is a fan of DnD and Yu-Gi-Oh?
@Szega huh?
@godskook There is a scene in the series where someone summons a young dragon, then cast a spell to fast-forward time
2:10 PM
@godskook My party secured a dragon egg, and sold it to a buyer who isn't the best person to keep it from becoming a power-hungry tyrant. I was planning on having a dragon boss eventually, and the egg quest gave the dragon a nice, ironic origin story... except by the time the players reach the dragon, a young Dragon won't be level-appropriate anymore, and a wyrmling most certainly isn't.
thus killing all creatures but the dragon
who becomes strong instead
You could always do a reference to Nidhogg.
Instead of gaining its power through age and experience, it feeds off the energies of some powerful artifact and becomes strong through that.
If time magic is the go-to way to make a dragon mature faster, I'll probably just hand-wave it and justify it by being a boon of Tiamat.
It would effectively become a Great Wyrm without any time magic or aging.
@Szega Time Wizard! Go Time Roulette!
2:15 PM
@Yuuki Yeah, this is fertile ground.
3:01 PM
grumble grumble Told a guy on the Ronin Army site that I'd try to help him build his character. I'm trying to be helpful, linking to the online SRD as I encounter things, but it's like pulling teeth with him picking items off of the page with no actual comprehension of what's legal or not, like trying to buy two ranks of Grappling Finesse despite it not being a ranked Advantage and the text indicating that grabs would use his 0 Dexterity score instead of his 8 Strength.
1 hour later…
4:12 PM
@FuzzyBoots, maybe you should explain to him what the implications of his stats are on what kind of character he can build. Especially since grappling is often-enough a Str-based thing that this is a legit confusion point.
Like....generally, in 3.5, Str-based characters are aggressive frontliners, often dip Barbarian and Fighter, and prefer THF or Sword/Board. Dex-based characters are skirmishers and ranged attackers, preferring TWF, throwing or archery. Con-based characters are tanks, and prefer to have classes that bolster their defense. However, everyone has a strong Con because duh. Int-based characters are sneaky, coniving and knowledgable, making good Rogues, Factotums, Wizards and Psions.
Wisdom-based characters tend to devote themselves to self-study stereotypes, like monks, clergy and nature-lovers. Finally, Charisma-based characters tend to be leaders or vagabonds, but regardless, people who's personality is suited to forming a cult of personality around.
I kinda want some kind of alternative to CON though I don't know enough about game design to know how that would work.
@Yuuki, huh? What do you mean, an "alternative"?
Like...an alternate name, or what?
I want to not have to feel required to have above average CON just to survive.
I want to have a negative CON modifier without having a death sentence.
@Yuuki, those are REALLY post-processed desires. Can you try unprocessing them?
A functional Raistlin Majere?
4:22 PM
I dunno, my feeling is that D&D as it currently is is already balanced around the assumption that players will have more than 10 CON no matter what they're playing.
@Yuuki, 3.5 was balanced on the assumption of the Elite Array, afaik.
And >10 is lore-wise "above average".
Even if randomly distributed
most PCs will have more than 10 Con
Because PCs are "above average"
Is your objection to the fact that not all stats are created equal, outside character-defining choices like class?
Well it feels strange from a character building perspective to have to work in "oh, my wizard goes to the gym two days every week so he doesn't have the terrible CON you'd expect from being a bookworm stuck in the library at uni for four years".
Adventuring is good cardio
4:25 PM
@Yuuki, being at a STEM college, I'd the average graduate to be in better health than the average person of similar age.
I tested into magic college, goddammit, I didn't get in on a football scholarship!
@Yuuki, but phys-ed is mandatory.
How the HELL are you going to handle Quidditch otherwise?
If anything, D&D doesn't reflect how relatively easy it is to get into a semi-decent shape, you are largely stuck with what you start with. All the running away from orcs should do wonders.
@godskook I personally feel that Quidditch having such an out-sized effect on the outcome of the House Cup is the perfect allegory for how college sports is distorting the budgets of universities.
@godskook ^_^ I completely forgot to mention... Mutants and Masterminds 3E. But yeah, I'm trying to explain things as best I can, but I just feel like he's expecting me to do all of the heavy lifting while he provides "ideas".
4:31 PM
@Yuuki To do that, you may want to find a system where hit points aren't determined by constitution, or whatever analogous attribute is used.
@Yuuki, as a fat person who grew up hating sports, I think they play a very important role in society, and should be a strong part of universities, from a PURELY educational perspective.
@FuzzyBoots, aren't the ideas the heavy-lifting?
@godskook There's a difference between "should be a strong part of universities" and "my former uni fired a good number of liberal arts professors so it could give the head football coach a million dollar (maybe plus) raise".
@FuzzyBoots, also, are his base-stats locked?
@Yuuki, that's a fairly context-less anecdote, given how little I know of even what college you are talking about. SO many justifications I could insert that'd make it perfectly reasonable.
@Yuuki if you just want to reduce the need for decent Con in castery types, you could simply increase their hit dice/hit points per level/whatever 5e does. It's a straight up buff, but it's reducing a weakness which is less unbalancing than increasing a strength.
With the increases in base hit dice, I kinda wanna try a negative CON run on a spellcaster and see how it goes.
4:36 PM
@Yuuki, simply put, I'm not someone who takes "Sports < Liberal Arts" as a self-evident truth in every anecdote I hear. I'd have to know MUCH more about the situation, including if those teachers were ACTUALLY fired in order to give the Coach his raise, or if its just a coincidence of timing.
@godskook I get where you're coming from and it makes sense if you're talking about a smaller college with a likelier smaller sports budgets. These things happen and sports programs have several unseen or at the very least not obvious benefits.
But without self-identifying, this was at a major public university with an already superb football program that was already paying its coach an outsized amount in comparison to his peers.
@Yuuki Mechanically, I predict it will play exactly the same as a character with vanilla hit point/hit dice and an average con mod, except you'll roll worse on con saves/checks
@Yuuki, even at a big school, if you have a professor who's not providing value, but your coach is bringing x100 his salary, its a perfectly justified trade-off.
@Yuuki The potential danger there, of course, is not so much the increased hit points as being able to put more points into Int, which does increase the power of the character.
@Yuuki @godskook perhaps that discussion belongs more on NAB than general?
4:39 PM
@Magician Yeah but character creation limits point-buy to 18, IIRC, so that limits the effectiveness of dumping CON, so to speak.
@Yuuki I thought it was 15 in 5e point buy. only way to get an 18 at creation is to roll stats
With a class as single attribute dependent as most casters seem to be, taking a negative CON doesn't seem like it'd provide any sort of compensation any which way.
@Adam Welp, too late to edit.
@Yuuki, another solution, instead of nerfing Con's generalistic value is to prop-up other stats as being valuable-enough to justify more varied distributions.
I'll point out, however, that you don't have to express the character's personality through the character sheet. That's a trap that 3.5 players often fall into. The system both rewards optimized characters and offers craft(basketweaving).
@godskook Strength, Int, and Charisma saves are so rare, it would be pretty refreshing to see them used a bit more
4:44 PM
You can just as easily play a sickly bookworm whose 12 Con is more of a game mechanics element.
By that note, I could play a 18 STR Fighter with a massive warhammer who can't win at arm wrestling against anyone then.
@Adam, I'm speaking from a 3.5 point-of-view, so....
Depends entirely on what you're trying to achieve, and what breaks your suspension of disbelief.
Hit points are entirely abstract. Arm wrestling is an observable event in the game world.
Then am I allowed to have an 8 STR wizard who can carry a car?
Eh, ideas are cheap. Everyone has them. Actually getting them into something workable is the difficult part in my mind.

And stats are bought by the player (M&M is a point-based system where the same points are used for Abilities, Advantages (basically Feats), Skills, Defenses, and Powers). So he could choose to put points in his Dexterity. I floated the option.
4:47 PM
@Yuuki You're conflating roleplaying with mechanics now.
I guess the issue is that it's a bit difficult in D&D to delineate where mechanics stops and roleplaying starts. Or if there's anything there at all.
@Magician, 3.5 stats are not removed from our reality. They dramatically affect what kind of character you have. If you have 6 Con, your negative mod is going to make you sickly, and you'll constantly fall to things that'd only wound a tougher man.
The point is, if you only want slightly below average con to roleplay a thematic type of character, or a personality and not feel punished for it, then you could just roleplay that character type with average or slightly above average con and explain away somehow why the mechanics aren't affected
@FuzzyBoots, imho, mechanics are cheap as long as the idea isn't outside the power-level necessitated by the character-building rules.
If you want the mechanics of choosing con as a dump stat to be more attractive, then you and your DM have some more work to do to try and find a way to do that.
4:50 PM
@godskook Fair enough. Opinions differ. :)
@FuzzyBoots, admittedly, I'm a 3.5-snob, and in that system, matching a lot of ideas that I've seen with a reasonably-powerful build isn't that hard. Might be harder when you have far more choices to make.
Only people I struggle building characters for in rapid time are the type that get hung-up on class-names(objecting to Unarmed Swordsages when they wanted to play Monks).
It's even more frustrating when that type of person is your DM.
"Yes, I know it says 'Paladin'. But I'm flavoring Divine Smite to make it more of a spellfencer type than a holy warrior."
@Yuuki, not wanting to de-align Paladin isn't getting hung-up on class-names.
@godskook I know we were discussing 3.5e, but that was in reference to 5e, whose Paladin is un-aligned.
My bad, didn't clarify.
@Yuuki, oh, I knew it was 5e, I just didn't know that 5e-Paladins dropped alginment-based Paladin stuff.
("Divine Smite" isn't a normal 3.5 thing, and google pinged 5e, so I assumed!)
4:59 PM
5e Paladin isn't even religion-aligned anymore.
Which frustrates me when people try to pigeonhole Paladins into the "holy warrior" archetype.
@Yuuki, are there any codes/rules of playing a 5e Paladin?
@godskook You swear an oath and your power comes from your devotion to that oath. That oath isn't necessarily religious in nature. In fact, Batman is a pretty common example for an Oath of Vengeance Paladin.
So you follow a code and ostensibly there are rules to that code, all of which vary depending on which oath you take.
So....at that point, what's the difference between an oathsworn spellsword and a Paladin?
None at all, really.
Like.....other than labels?
5:02 PM
Pretty much.
So....if that's the case, were you getting hungup on class-names by wanting to change it when there wasn't a need? Or was your DM trying to impose things that weren't in the rules?
Well, I didn't want to change anything. Or at least I didn't think I was changing anything. A spellsword bodyguard who's devoted to the royalty he's protecting seems to fit into how Paladins are described in 5e.
But the DM was insistent on Paladins worshiping a deity and basically being a cleric.
Ok, so he was enforcing things that weren't there, sounds like.
@daze413 No, I just lost 2 games while trying to score a daily - which I could do next day no problem
@godskook We get a bit of that in M&M too. Powers are built off of a bunch of core effects that have specific mechanical uses lightly flavored by Descriptors (basically whether an attack is Darkness, Bludgeoning, Magic, etc).
Two of the common problems are a) confusing the effect name for what the effect actually does and b) trying to get additional powers as side effects of their descriptor (the game has a simple method for letting people do that, but it has a cost to it in Fatigue, which some people object to).
4 hours later…
8:59 PM
Anybody with 5e experience, do you know if GMPC/DMPC was redefined in 5e to mean "built as a player character" and/or "has advancement" rather than the usual 3.5 definition of being a character played by the DM who hogs the spotlight usually reserved for PCs?
I don't know if GMPC/DMPC has ever had a set definition.
@godskook I don't ever remember the term "DMPC" being explained in any of the rule books. Just PCs and NPCs
The books do guide you on giving class levels to NPCs, but they still just call them NPCs
Q: Out of the Abyss

PopinjayThis is my first time GMing. I am unsure as to whether the other NPCs could be leveling up with the PCs. I do not see any rules for it, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense of them not to if they are participating in defense, etc. How do other people handle this?

@Adam, the answer on that's making a weird claim then.
@Yuuki, there's definitely a community consensus on what it means for 3.5, with a little bit of play on the "are GMPCs always bad" front between speakers, but its mostly nuances that are natural for terms not yet in dictionaries.
Yeah, I don't like that answer very much. As far as I know, DMPC/GMPC is a social term, not a game term. At least as far is 5e is concerned. And the idea that monsters can't have levels is unsteady I think
@godskook I mean, I've seen the same questions pop up as 5e-related posts.
9:10 PM
Q: How do we add to our FAQ index?

SevenSidedDieI recently collected together our various faq-tagged meta questions in the FAQ Index for Role-playing Games Stack Exchange, as inspired by the network-wide FAQ on MSE. Naturally, this raises the question: How do we add new questions to the FAQ index? The MSE FAQ has a section at the end definin...

So I guess people might be using the same definition?
10:03 PM
hey there @Yuuki
@Adam whether monsters can have levels or not in 5e is a matter of DM discretion. the DMG does allow for it in the monster creation materials there, and it can be useful from a DMing standpoint, albeit not easy to calculate a CR for.
10:15 PM
hey there @Pyrodante
how're things going?
pretty good.
alright here
10:34 PM
Today I learned that blindsight is a medical condition wherein a cortically blind person can respond to stimuli they cannot consciously see.
11:25 PM
huh, I would have thought that was a made up thing
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