TRPG General Chat

daze413

00:31

whoa they blinded a monkey for that?

trogdor

a lot of places do some pretty bad things to some animals to get scientific/medical data

daze413

@godskook I have an answer lined up for that, if it gets reopened. I've divided XP for OotA per PC only, and haven't run into any issues

considering, also, that in the beginning, some of these NPCs will be effectively carrying the PCs weight until about 3rd or 4th level when the PCs start to outshine them

Shalvenay

00:49

@trogdor yeah -- you just can't get the data otherwise.

trogdor

yeah,.. unless you did it to humans instead, which is worse

but neither of them is great

I can at least to some degree empathize with those who protest animal testing

but I also don't know how else we would find certain cures or information about these kinds of things otherwise

Shalvenay

02:48

hey there @daze413

daze413

03:08

@Shalvenay ohai! what's up?

Shalvenay

@daze413 not a whole lot, as for you?

daze413

@Shalvenay got a game coming up tonight, so that's nice. Gonna run 2 recurring players and 1 returning player through the Darkest Dungeon. It is likely to be a boss fight

we'll see how treating the party as 50% larger affects the difficulty of an encounter, if it really does deliver the hard-but-still-beatable result

Magician

...posted an answer to the tremulus question. Got downvoted within the first 3 minutes. Oh-kay then.

I know single downvotes are random noise, but that was abrupt

Miniman

Presumably someone took exception to your criticism of tremulus?

Magician

I seem to be ruffling feathers lately

Miniman

03:18

It only takes a light breeze to ruffle feathers, so it's bound to happen.

godskook

03:29

Anybody familiar with a 3.5 or PF class call "Master Sage"?

Miniman

@godskook Nope, and Google doesn't seem to be either.

Even searching dndwiki (shudder) comes up blank.

daze413

@Miniman let me wash you!

there, there, it's all over...

Shalvenay

hey there @KorvinStarmast

Magician

In other news, I couldn't sleep last night so I came up with a house rule for Fate that fixes an issue only I seem to have with it. Namely, the checklist of aspects, invocations and boosts.

In most large fights, the same thing happens: players want to land big hits, so they look around for each and every invocation and boost they can use. The Room's On Fire. The opponent is Banged Up. I'm the Goddamned Batman. What else?.. Oh, A Criminal Killed My Parents, and the opponent is a criminal. At that point, it's not heroic or dramatic. It's checking off items from a list.

The solution I've seen is referencing the invoked aspects in your narration... But that hardly works when there's 5 of them. There's no focus. So that's what I want to add.

In this variant, the first boost or invocation, free or otherwise, becomes the focus of the narration and gets +1. So it either becomes a +3 or a reroll +1, before any stunts get involved. Any further invocations or boosts get a -1 instead, becoming a +1 or a reroll -1.

How does this work out? Using one invocation is even more rewarded than before, so you'd want to pretty much always do that. At two invocations you're at the same +4 you would have had without the change. Going beyond that is not very efficient, though.

There's a reduced incentive to look for every invocation you can find. Similarly, the narration of the action is actually cohesive. But if you really wanted to blow through your fate points and stacked up free invocations, you can still do that and get some benefit.

The one concern I have is players being unable to take out the opponent with one massive blow as before. More individual attacks working through their stress boxes may be required. At the same time, you'd do more damage with the one invoke, so maybe that's not an issue. Still, perhaps reducing the total stress boxes some opponents get is prudent.

Thoughts?..

trogdor

03:57

it at least seems like something worth testing out

our group tends to have more of a problem with not compelling ourselves as often as we could though

Magician

That's a whole 'nother issue, and one with which mechanical tweaks can hardly help

trogdor

I don't usually see anyone going for more than 1 or 2 aspects to invoke on something

but that is just us

Magician

It's typically free invocations and boosts, I found

trogdor

for any group that has the issue that you apparently do, this seems like a worthwhile fix to try

Magician

Yeah, if you're not regularly seeing 3+ invocations on a single roll, there's no need for this house rule.

trogdor

03:59

@Magician we don't have those floating around long enough for people to invoke a lot of them at once

they typically get used the turn they are made or the one after

my only concern is it possibly over-incentivizing single aspect invokes

Magician

That could be a problem, but maybe also good? Bringing drama or situational context into the action is what Fate's about, and this way you really want to do so.

trogdor

it doesn't really punish 2 invokes, but it does create a sort of stingy fate point economy where you might get greedy and want to spend exactly one fate point every turn

Magician

That's certainly true. Would need to actually try it out to see if that's a problem.

trogdor

I do think it would depend on the group

that seems like it will always be the biggest factor

I do think it is a good thing if your group wants to spend multiple fate points on some turns

but I can see how it would be an issue if they typically want to be constantly spending 5 of them at a time

Magician

May relax it to let fate point invokes be unchanged. Those are very limited as it is.

trogdor

04:07

to be fair though, that takes actually spending a fate point you can only get back by getting compelled, or taking a turn to create an invokable aspect with free compels

Magician

Oh, forgot an important thing. The high concept aspect cannot be the focus of the roll.

trogdor

@Magician is this a major issue for you?

people over using high concept aspects I mean

Magician

Focusing on it is not novel or creative. Yes, you are the Goddamned Batman, that's nice.

trogdor

our group probably does use the High Concept aspect a tad more than we probably should

but I don't think it is a huge issue for us

Magician

It's not an issue on its own for me, no. But with the emphasis on single invokes I want to avoid the overuse of the generic go-to high concept aspect.

trogdor

04:10

fair enough

though to me that suggests that the problem might be more that some of the aspects, maybe even the high concept one some of the time, might not fit the criteria they should to be aspects?

Magician

What do you mean?

trogdor

my group has discussed trying harder to make aspects that are broadly usable and more creative

we sometimes rush into making as many aspects for our characters at once as we can at the start of character creation

and we have found it often works better when we limit ourselves to just a couple aspects and let the rest emerge through play

I don't know for a fact that this is an issue for other groups, but I can imagine it might be

if an aspect is a "really good aspect" it should be broadly useable to be invoked, and easily compelled as well, and it shouldn't say a similar thing about a character as another aspect does

overlap is fine but not too much overlap

if you have "I am the Goddang Batman" and "Vigilante Crime Fighter"

those might not need to both be on the same character

just as an example

Magician

Agreed. Coming up with good aspects is hard. But so is coming up with good aspects on the spot during play.

trogdor

also obviously the first one is kinda a better aspect than the second one, but I was just trying to illustrate a specific point

@Magician this is fair too, but I have found that when we rush through the first few minutes of making a character and just put down all the aspects, it is indeed worse than when we realize through play a thing about a character that could fit well as an aspect

Magician

Fair enough. We'll try the on-the-go character generation next time we play Fate. Which may be a while...

trogdor

04:18

also, realizing an aspect through play is best when applied with patience

it's awesome if you want to do something on the first session that you think adding an aspect to invoke for would be good, but if you still have 1 or 2 aspects to fill out you could wait a few sessions to see what your character acts like in a few different scenarios to pick out an aspect for them

I know I personally have a particular problem creating aspects for characters

I tend to try to just cram all the aspect slots with stuff and then realize a little too far in that I made the character a little flat

that isn't always how it has worked out, I think Dr Light was a huge hit, but a lot of the other fate characters I have made might have been a little one dimensional

@Magician it may be a while for us too

Magician

What are you playing nowadays?

trogdor

nothing steady

mostly King of All Monsters or whatever the exact name was

the one @BESW made

Magician

That... seemed like a fun one-off

trogdor

we have not been playing it as a steady game, it's just that the last few times we met up and played anything, it was that

it doesn't have a campaign or anything, we just played several separate sessions of it

though technically one of them "remembered" the one before it

in so far as two of the monsters from the last game had basically statues in their honor

which were of course pretty promptly destroyed

the only fate we have played in a while is a Fate StarGate game

with just @BESW as the GM and @doppelgreener and myself as players

and we have only played two sessions of it

and the last one must have been at least a month or a month and a half ago

our last almost semi steady fate game was the Amaterasu one

which we all agreed needs to be rebooted in some way or other to work

SmokeDetector

07:27

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching product name in body, pattern-matching website in body, repeated URL at end of long post: The truth is almost all men have a few interest by tansyjoy on rpg.SE

daze413

08:40

Have you tried turning it off an- I mean, have you talked to your GM about this?

kviiri

I wonder if I'm imagining it, but I feel "talk to your GM/players/deity-of-preference" has become a lot less common answer to questions where it could be applicable.

Which is nice, IMO, because even though it's usually sound advice it's thrown about so casually it's becoming meaningless.

Magician

While prevalent and not question-specific, it is the first step in resolving many if not most issues at the table. No sense in diagnosing finer details if a simple conversation can solve it.

daze413

08:55

@kviiri I've seen it a couple of times this past week I mean, it's not really that bad, but usually if you want really quality answers, you need to talk to your GM first, and then ask. Here's to hoping more people will talk to their GMs!

trogdor

yeah talking things out is a good thing to do in a lot of cases

daze413

I sure did learn to talk things out before asking. Now, if only I had a GM to talk to....

trogdor

and if the issue isn't solved solely by that, bringing things here after amassing the info you can hopefully get from doing so isn't a bad idea either

but I have mostly seen "talk to them about it" when the poster of the question didn't specify that they had

daze413

@trogdor I would be so bold to say, that it is the best idea :)

trogdor

@daze413 seeing as you said it first, just with different words, I would expect as much xD

daze413

09:02

We also do get the occasional "yes, I talked to the GM, and now I'm even more confused"

but they resolve themselves

trogdor

well that can certainly happen yeah

but not talking to them is a horrible losing kind of game

nwp

To be fair hearing strangers give advice gives a lot better perspective on who is doing it wrong and what can be done about it. Especially identifying when you fall into a stereotype like "Mad Scientist" or "Strategist" helps a lot in identifying and solving problems that regular talks between GM and players just cannot do.

trogdor

if talking about a difference in understanding about something doesn't help, there might not be much that can

I mean, I am not saying no one should ask for help on the site

just that a regular conversation with people helps you understand them better, and then you can give more understanding to the people trying to help you here

nwp

There is some weird psychological effect where you just don't believe someone no matter the arguments and a third person saying it makes it believable.

Anne Aunyme

yeah, as long as it's only one person why would (s)he be more right than you?

after all if you have a strong opinion on the topic you must have experimented things related to that, probably more than this random dude, but more than two of them? maybe not.

nwp

09:20

I always found that effect to not be explainable by rational thought. There are super convincing arguments that you just don't buy and then some random dude says "Yeah" and you fold. Makes no sense to me, but I experienced doing it.

doppelgreener

@trogdor especially when those people aren't necessarily your friend, and don't have a stake in ensuring you stay happy. those people will call you out on stuff pretty well.

like that one time someone complained to us that their GM was a jerk, and I answered with, actually, they're the one being a jerk.

trogdor

@doppelgreener do you mean in context of people on the site giving advice to question askers?

doppelgreener

@trogdor yup

trogdor

mk

I was 90-10 sure it was that

doppelgreener

-19

Q: DM is making rules without reason, how can I stop this

My DM is a beginner, she does not know the basics very well. I am playing a game where I am inside a camp with creatures that can give you almost any food that you want (We're doing this game off of a campaign). My character like to eat human but they won't serve that to me, it's against they're ...

house-rules

trogdor

09:26

the 10 was maybe some abusive friendship scenario or something XD

doppelgreener

oh right yeah hopefully not ;_;

trogdor

I have had about one friend ever who I probably should have realized at the time was not treating me the way he should have

good news is though, he didn't do anything that scarred me for life, and I got a free life lesson out of it XD

nwp

@doppelgreener You phrased "you are the one being a jerk" really well.

trogdor

he did legit scare me a couple times, but life is a little scary sometimes

doppelgreener

@nwp teachable moments! \o/

trogdor

09:36

lol

nwp

@nwp Maybe that is nature's way of diversifying human behavior in order to not have everyone die on the first good-sounding fatal idea.

kviiri

@daze413 This summarizes my opinion on talking quite well.

I am in a party where we take turns being the GM, and as a consequence we spend quite a lot of time talking about various issues in our game. It is definitely helpful, but it's more like a starting point for finding solutions than a solution in itself.

kviiri

10:37

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/101913/… Yet Another Video Game Question (ps. what's a trainer?)

Anyone know a 5e equivalent for The Shop? d20srd.org/d20/magic/shop.html

ACuriousMind

11:13

@kviiri A "trainer" is usually a cheating program that enables you to give your character items, abilities or whatever else that wouldn't be normally available at that point (or at all).

doppelgreener

Have I ever told you how glad I am that these pictures exist? https://t.co/JlLXfWMG5Z

Tweeted by grahamslexa on June 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM

Onward, mighty steed!

kviiri

11:34

@ACuriousMind Is that short for "so-I-don't-have-to-train"-er?

trogdor

@doppelgreener oooh jeez the comments under the pictures though

Anne Aunyme

My guess is that's like something that trains your character for you

trogdor

and I was wondering if it was photo-shopped or something, seems it is worse than that

doppelgreener

@trogdor oh nooooooooooooo T_T

trogdor

@doppelgreener sorry to ruin that X(

doppelgreener

11:41

@trogdor it's worth learning about!

trogdor

it is

ACuriousMind

@kviiri Heh. I think @AnneAunyme's etymology is more likely, though

kviiri

11:54

Even at the risk of sounding like a total gaming elitist, I never figured out why people would play games that are so boring they'd rather let a software accessory play it for them.

BESW

Simply put, time sinks.

More complexly, many games have a variety of different minigames and some people really like some of them while detesting others.

nwp

@kviiri They want to skip the boring parts and get to the interesting parts. They want to cast wish, draw from the deck of many things, have a keep and kill a dragon. Starting at level 1 you need to play for a while to get there and the "time spent per enjoyment had"-factor is unacceptably low.

kviiri

@nwp I wouldn't trust a game designed so badly to have an entertaining late game either, I guess.

Maybe it's different with games with attractive multiplayer scenes for powerlevelers.

nwp

Once could also say they are IRL homebrewing in order to not let the rules get in the way of fun. It's just that the GM they need to convince happens to be a computer.

kviiri

12:10

Sure

But usually, whether for video games or tabletops, if one needs to homebrew to get a good game it's a warning sign! ;)

BESW

Sure. But it's increasingly prevalent for games to be designed with time sinks to pad their play time.

doppelgreener

games that think more gameplay mechanics equals more fun

►

and then also as well

BESW

(One thing I admire about REIS is that, as much as I dislike some of its minigames, they don't try to fool me into thinking I'm getting more play for my money with time sinks. The minigames are actually feeding the game's design goals.)

nwp

I suppose a perfectly designed game would not need homebrewing, but the rules are made for typical players and if you are particularly impatient none of the games quite fit you.

kviiri

@doppelgreener Oh boy. This reminds me of Assassin's Creed: Revelations! (aka the game in the series with the least plot-relevant revelations)

doppelgreener

12:15

@kviiri it reminds me of Jak II, which I could not complete because they had a section with a completely different game mechanic to the rest of the game (a rail shooter) and I couldn't beat it.

kviiri

Metal Gear Solid V: Phantom Pain is a first-class stealth action game, but they had to slap a forced base-building game on that too. And it's even forced-online. :(

nwp

Maybe some day a market place will emerge where you can do deals like "You play the RTS part in my FPS game and I play the FPS part in your RTS game".

3

kviiri

Heh :D

NautArch

12:37

all i can think about with this quesiton is the dwarf setting his own beard on fire every time he uses his breath weapon.

nwp

If he goes with a dragonborn reskin his beard would gain fire resistance :P

NautArch

@nwp hehe. Roll to attack. And roll percentile for your beard...

kviiri

A beard damage chart sounds like something ADnD second edition could've had.

BESW

Sounds like a fun "success at cost" negotiation.

NautArch

Our dwarf lost his beard in-game. It's been a pretty amusing roleplay.

BESW

12:44

...did it involve a bet?

NautArch

Sadly, it did not. It involved being engulfed in flame. I think. Details are...hazy.

kviiri

@NautArch Smoky haze tends to happen when fire is involved, yes.

NautArch

he also had gotten caught in a wild magic surge by our warlock and ended up with the feather beard.

BESW

Nov 15 '14 at 2:29, by BESW

You're an RPG player. On Fire is a very common condition.

NautArch

@BESW Yes, and often in my underwear.

that should probably get clarification. DM often has evening attacks and I'm fighting without armor. Those attackers often use fire.

BESW

12:49

Also emus:

Bee hive, so angry bees and yaks everywhere. The emus were curious about the fire pit and set themselves on fire. Don't worry, they are ok

Tweeted by foxfeather on November 24, 2016 at 6:05 PM

kviiri

In Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, yaks or sheep, can't recall which, are special-cased to spread the burning status to nearby creatures. It's hilarious!

ACuriousMind

@kviiri The sheep are the fluffy flammable ones. The yaks just gore you to death, uncaring that the world around them is on fire :P

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected, offensive title detected: Closed ik how to kill the fucker stealth by user36678 on rpg.SE

kviiri

@ACuriousMind Yaks. They're serious business.

Sheep? Not as much.

Adam

@SmokeDetector That's very strange. They edited their own post down to spam?

ACuriousMind

12:56

@Adam Not so strange. The pattern of "user posts question -> question gets closed -> user vandalizes question" is pretty common on SE in general.

BESW

We don't see it a lot here, happily.

kviiri

@Adam I think defacing one's own posts when closed or answered isn't too uncommon. I've seen it a couple of times on Math.SE, probably in an effort to destroy evidence that help was received for homework or something.

ACuriousMind

Well, "pretty common" in the sense of "it happens regularly". The vast majority of users don't do this.

BESW

"It's only being on fire. I don't know what the rest of you are worried about." -- Rooster the (burning) paladin #dnd

Tweeted by UrsulaV on February 25, 2014 at 3:35 AM

2

doppelgreener

13:13

@ACuriousMind Charcoal HQ detects this happening a few times a day -- especially on Stack Overflow around the end of school semester, when students aplenty suddenly realise that asking Stack Overflow to complete their homework wasn't ethical and could get them in trouble and is right there for university 'bots to uncover.

BESW

(Ursula Vernon has a lot of relephant experience.)

doppelgreener

@kviiri Yes this.

BESW

> Flame of Aran. When you move into a new zone while On fire, you take 2 stress and everyone in both zones must defend against a +3 fire attack.

...nobody raided Karazhan?

nwp

I feel like mixing 5e with some darkest dungeon elements such as torches, stress and eldritch monsters would work out great.

kviiri

A friend of mine is throwing a introductory RPG session with 5e for some first-timers. They want a Lovecraft-like game. We're having a rather hard time figuring out how to really do cosmic horror in DnD where the characters are heroic and monsters are there to be bashed into pieces...

BESW

13:25

That is... yes. That is a thing.

20

Q: How to make combat encounters terrifying?

I'm running a 5e, self-written, horror/psychological themed adventure for a group of experienced players this weekend. Noting that many players have the mindset of "meh, if this character dies I'll roll a new one", I'm finding it difficult to come up with combat scenarios that are actually unsett...

dnd-5e combat horror

22

Q: How to make a dense, immersive horror atmosphere?

I'm currently narrating a horror-esque campaign set in a dystopian future based on the Lovecraft Mythos. My problem is that my players break their own sense of immersion often, making the game seem no more tense than a walk in the park. I believe that fostering a more atmospheric playing enviro...

gm-techniques horror

And in case you go too far...

53

Q: Preventing saturation in a horror campaign

I am currently designing my first horror campaign and what I've come up with so far is pretty dark and gruesome. I worry that if it is gut wrenching the whole way through, eventually the players will either mentally adjust, get bored, or pass their tolerance/exposure level. How can I stop that fr...

gm-techniques system-agnostic campaign-development horror

kviiri

Thanks, I'll forward these to him.

The Oracle

0

Q: What is the [dnd-miniatures] tag for, and can we give it a tag wiki / revise its tag usage?

We have a dnd-miniatures tag on main site which has 8 questions and no tag wiki, and I'm not sure what to add for one, nor what this tag gets used for exactly. There seems to be a D&D Miniatures game that was unrelated to other D&D games, but it was discontinuned in 2011 Wizards of the Coast al...

discussion support tags tag-wiki

kviiri

@BESW The lingering modifiers is an excellent idea.

Magician

NEW NEW IDEA: Go here and generate 6 skills, these are the only skills in your game, offer no explanations https://www.randomlists.com/random-verbs

Tweeted by gshowitt on June 20, 2017 at 12:57 PM

kviiri

DnD characters are heroes, they don't have to fear a monster... unless they have to feat losing their status as a hero first.

doppelgreener

13:35

@Magician invent, whisper, scare, trouble, bang, turn. This skill set seems creepy on multiple levels.

Magician

> ignore, exercise, promise, regret, search, punch

I like mine

kviiri

@doppelgreener I got the same one. Halloween-punk scavenger game with sex moves?

Oh wait, you gotta click refresh... rats.

Increase, Analyse, Stain, Pause, Bury, Drop. Yuck.

doppelgreener

@kviiri oh, that makes sense.

kviiri

I liked our first set more!

BESW

@kviiri Sounds like a morgue-based police procedural where they hardly ever solve the case.

doppelgreener

13:38

> time, guard, lick, fix, spell, wobble

Magician

@doppelgreener A game of cutthroat spelling bee competitions.

kviiri

@BESW If this type of TV show has taught me anything, it's that whenever they bring a body, clear two slabs. Another one is on its way soon.

@Magician This sounds like a game where everyone plays "a Chad" as envisioned by the stereotypical niceguy.

Adam

In one of my old 5e games, we had an "incompetent wizard" who had to make an intelligence save every time he cast a spell, and if he failed, he instead cast a random wizard spell of the same level. One time the result was Continual Flame targeting himself. He was on fire for the rest of the game.

Magician

@Adam For the rest of his life

Adam

The spell lasts until dispelled, he would be on fire until the flesh rotted off of his bones.

Magician

13:43

@kviiri I can see that. But my first thought was about the terrible price of violence.

Ryan

Debating on my next level up. Multiclassing early is hard. Currently level 2 Warlock / level 1 Cleric. Hit level 4 towards end of yesterdays session so need to pick between Warlock and Cleric for this level

Adam

And, if the DM were cool, the bones would be on fire until they crumbled to dust, and then the dust would be on fire

BESW

> risk, dance, queue, appear, shock

Ryan

Getting my Pact Tome at level 3 would be awesome but I think leveling Cleric makes more sense at the moment from an RP perspective

BESW

...WWII British socialites.

kviiri

13:45

I need to go so I'll be in time for my IRL rpg friends. See you!

BESW

ttfn

kviiri

@BESW He sent his thanks for the tips.

BESW

@kviiri Yey!

NautArch

@kviiri have fun! may the dice be with you :)

Magician

> dust, ruin, tame, rhyme, water, admire. Desert fairies.

BESW

13:46

@kviiri D&D isn't really well suited for cosmic horror, specifically because it wants to stat up everything you meet and if it has hit points you can kill it.

So a major key is going to be finding ways to subvert the battle paradigm without robbing your players of agency.

Adam

@Ryan If you feel the cleric level would make you happiest, then I would go with that. but I would probably pick one side and at least level it up enough to get an ASI before splitting up your levels too much more.

Ryan

@Adam ASI?

Adam

Ability Score Increase

BESW

Actual Satisfaction Index.

NautArch

Astute Symbiotic Intelligence

BESW

13:52

Aw, shucks, innit?

Ryan

@Adam oh I don't think the Ability Score has a huge effect on my character really especially since we did roll for stats so I'm pretty good already.

Adam

Do you guys play with feats?

Ryan

yeah I can get feats if I want those instead. I haven't read them in a while to remember if any made sense for my character and seemed fun

BESW

> warn, owe, separate, cross, serve, invite

....I think that's a Samurai game.

doppelgreener

@BESW that'd make sense

Ryan

13:56

I'm a Forest Gnome, Knowledge Cleric that worships Garl Glittergold but became possessed by the Fey. Speaking Sylvan, Gnomish, Elvish, and Common. Thinking I might eventually dip into Druid if I play this character far enough

doppelgreener

@Ryan Ok but what character are you playing?

Ryan

@doppelgreener ... if you're being sarcastic I can't tell. If you're not being sarcastic than I have no idea what you're talking about :\

Adam

So, the choice is between channel divinity, an extra level 1 spell slot, and extra prepared cleric spell and RP, versus the benefits pact tome

BESW

@Ryan Grammar pedantry joke: Assuming that "I'm a Forest Gnome..." refers to you, not your character.

doppelgreener

@Ryan ^ yes that. :) just playing around.

sorry for the confusion!

Ryan

14:02

@Adam well if you're going to include all of the Cleric than should also include all of the Warlock. So Pact Tome and 2 additional spells known

doppelgreener

Myself I am a Fire Dwarf with the Outsider subtype and with the Hammer Master prestige class. I speak many languages and may dip into Leadership.

3

Adam

@Ryan Ah! Yes! So rather, it is: channel divinity, an extra level 1 spell slot, and extra prepared cleric spell and RP, versus the benefits pact tome (3 cantrips from any class, is it?), an extra warlock spell known, and pact magic spell slots bumped to 2nd level.

Ryan

@Adam sounds right

nwp

@doppelgreener Leadership

doppelgreener

@nwp Yes! Thank you citizen.

nitsua60

14:10

@Miniman I'd upvote this if the citations were there. I'm 1000 mi. afb at the moment, or I'd do it for you =)

NautArch

@nitsua60 edited with citations for you

nwp

14:26

If I set the alignment of my report to "justify" will my chaotic evil boss object?

BESW

Depends on how good your hyphenation is.

NautArch

@nwp depends on your justifications

Szega

@nwp Nah, he is chaotic, he is not reading any reports.

doppelgreener

@Szega He will thank you for the report you've been stressing all week over, and then feed it directly into a shredder without reading it.

Adam

14:42

@Ryan Personally, I lean towards the warlock level. 2nd level spells are nice to have, especially since you're a level late to get them. That being said, I don't know anything about your campaign, your other players, or your party dynamic. So, whichever choice makes you feel the most excited, you should go for.

NautArch

@Adam I learned something very cool about my warlock dip for my bard recently. If I don't use my 1st level warlock slots (which I often don't), I've basically got 2 free Level 1 Cure wounds/Short rest.

Adam

Yup. Spell slots you get from regular old Spell Casting and Pact Magic can be interchanged. It's pretty nice.

Ryan

@Adam I'm the only spell caster in the entire party. We have 2 rogues, 2 barbarians, 1 ranger (who's our tank) and 2 monks. Depending on who shows up. At this point the most consistent players are me, the ranger, one of the rogues, and one of the barbarians. I'm higher level than everyone because I'm the only one who's been there consistently since the campaign started

NautArch

We don't have a healer, so I'm becoming it. Next level I get an ASI/Feat and going to go with Inspiring Leader. We've got a warlock, so the DM is giving more Short Rests. That allows me to drop a d8 for healing with my Song of Rest, the level 1 Cure Wounds, and an extra 19 Temp HP every short rest.

who needs a cleric?

Ryan

last night was brutal though because the only AOE any of us have is sleep or dragon breath poison neither of which work on skeletons and we had 14 fighting us and every time they hit us 2 more skeletons emerged. We retreated with minimum casualties

it was a bit ridiculous. i think our DM needs to figure out balance between fights where the rogues just kill everything before anyone else gets to play and fights like yesterdays

Adam

14:50

@Ryan Ah! See the usual problem with multiclassing is that you end up being weaker in terms of raw strength, but gain some versatility. In your case though, you are likely just as strong as the others in your party since you are ahead. So, you should be fine no matter what you choose.

@Ryan @NautArch They needed a cleric. Turn Undead would have...well...turned that whole situation around :p

Ryan

@NautArch hmm explain please. You're saying I could use my Word of Healing with my Warlock slots?

NautArch

@Ryan Exactly. Pact Magic gives you much more freedom in sharing spells/slots.

Ryan

@NautArch do you have a reference somewhere I can read to understand why that is? Could've definitely used more healing last night

NautArch

See page 164 of the PHB

Bottom right, "Pact Magic" heading.

Adam

@Ryan My DM had that issue too, and he solved it by using waves of enemies. So, if we take out a group of minions easily, more just keep coming in from the other entrances, until he feels that we have had the appropriate challenge (or everyone gets to do something). Then the next few rooms are all empty because "the waves came from the surrounding rooms"

@NautArch You can also see the rule for that here: roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Character%20Advancement#toc_12

Ryan

14:56

hmm I definitely read that and completely missed it. Gotta keep that in mind

NautArch

@Ryan I did, too :) I've done the spell slot sharing, but didn't really think about the power of it until we lost our cleric.

Ryan

I also realized last night that I had done Cleric wrong and thought it was like Warlock where I pick one of the Divinity Spells and it is in place of a different one. Discovered last night only Warlock works that way. With Cleric I get both the Divinity Spells in addition to the others

Adam

Yeah, Domain spells freaking rock my socks

Ryan

main reason I'm thinking Cleric before Tome is because I tried doing Fey Presence on the skeletons to frighten them and the DM said they were frightened... then as I ran away 3/5 of them hit me. But once I got away I started praying to Garl and he spoke to me and buffed our tank.

So from a purely RP standpoint that makes me think my character would be drawn more to Cleric at the moment than the Fey that didn't help

NautArch

@Ryan That's a great RP reason. I did my warlock dip solely because I saw our cleric of Bane turn an entire room of undead. I want power/fame, so I quickly made a pact with Bane at next level to get some.

godskook

15:01

@Ryan, presumably, frightening a thing, even a Skeleton, would have in-game implications, even if they were non-mechanical in nature.

Especially since the Skeletons didn't follow you, as is normal for frightened things in 5E

Adam

@godskook They should have all had disadvantage on the attack. Doesn't mean they couldn't get lucky and still roll stupidly high on both dice. Assuming they failed the Wis save of course

godskook

@Adam, but as I read the q/a, making that attack is normal for frightened creatures, which means your character would be used to this behavior from having seen how frightened creatures behave in the past.

Ryan

@Adam the DM said the frightened would just negate the advantage they have from flanking me on all sides

Adam

@NautArch I've used turn undead, I think 3 times in my campaign so far. The first two times, all but 1 or 2 creatures got turned. This most recent time, only one failed the save. And it was a room of 4 or 5 ghouls with one of our dudes paralyzed. It was a bad time for them to all beat the saving throw. But it was awesome!

godskook

"Use Power -> Power works as expected -> Conclude that power worked as expected" is what I'd expect from an OotS-meta-aware character

Ryan

15:07

I would've been better off to just disengage and run to stand next to my tank. Then do it on my next turn so they couldn't approach us. Live and learn. Except one of our rogues that died badly hehe

Adam

@Ryan Well, all of the ones that failed the save would have disadvantage on all of their attacks as long as they can see you. Even if that attack wasn't against you. And can't chase you as you run out of the room. So, it did have its benefits.

Ryan

@Adam should they have had disadvantage or should it have just offset the flanking advantage making their attacks "normal?"

NautArch

@Ryan if they're flanking and getting advantage, then it would just offset.

Adam

@Ryan Having advantage and disadvantage at the same time just cancels each other out, but that's still better than 5 attacks at advantage.

godskook

@Ryan same difference?

Your Fey Presence made their attacks less accurate than they should've been.

NautArch

16:06

well, that escalated quickly

doppelgreener

@NautArch Yeah, though it looks like the kind of situation it would be very helpful to assess on meta.

NautArch

@doppelgreener very much so. I even agree with ICanChan that it's a good type of question to ask/guide someone wanting to play an evil character.

doppelgreener

@NautArch I agree with that. However it runs into age-old arguments over what "evil" should even mean, which for us is the kind of terrain that murders advanswerers and rusts their questions away to nothing.

NautArch

@doppelgreener Haha. yup. A meta discussion would be helpful here. Maybe there is way to phrase it to be more useful. Although I think the "don't be a dick" is the operative directive.

even though i've got player who keeps creating "dick" characters. I killed his last one (totally by accident, I swear.)

Adam

@NautArch site is down, so I can't leave a counter-comment, but I didn't make the answer saying that skeletons weren't immune to unconscious. Pyrotechnical did. I just fixed a small error in the answer body.

Oh look, it's back up. Comment still stands

NautArch

16:14

@Adam fixed it. thanks.

Adam

No, thank you!

NautArch

nono, thank YOU!

doppelgreener

@NautArch Those rocks just fell on their own, honest!

NautArch

@doppelgreener haha

i was DMing and tried to hit my DMPC (my own character, we rotate DM and sometimes keep our players active) with Disintegrate. He pointed out that I was not in range. ROlled randomly for other in-range characters and his number came up.

nwp

@NautArch Does rotating DMs work well? I would expect players/ex-DMs to have more knowledge of the world than they should have.

Szega

16:23

@nwp We do that, but each GM runs his own story.

so there is no secret info they are "in" on

when they are Pcs

nwp

So you switch the GM after a story arc completes, not after a session. That makes sense.

Szega

not necessarily after an arc. we have separate stories running parallel

NautArch

@Szega we try to do the same. That 'campaign' is more pure combat than anything else, but we switch after their story is done. We just got a bunc of new players and have made a decision to keep the world the same with a single BBEG to help give more structure to the group.

Adam

@doppelgreener Over the weekend, my rogue companion purposefully activated a trap that he had previously discovered. Caused part of the ceiling to cave in. Bright side: it killed half of the monsters we were fighting. Flip side: nearly knocked me out, and in a different situation, could have killed me. But I survived, so now it's just a funny story :p

Insert pedantic joke about "me" dying and not "my PC" dying here

nwp

Yes, in this chat RP of any kind is strictly prohibited!

doppelgreener

16:33

@nwp check with @BESW and @trogdor; i think they did some DM rotation during D&D and I think it went fine for them. I also think they explored alternate stories in the same world between rotations. Nowadays outside D&D our group rotates GMing whenever anyone's got something they want to run, and it works fine, even within the same campaign.

@Adam that's fantastic

Szega

16:51

@NautArch I posted a comment on your answer, not sure it could stand on its own as a question. I can ask separately maybe..

NautArch

@Szega that's an interesting question. I think it's worth a standalone. I'm worried it'll be a DM-fiat type of thing as to what "deception" entails, but could see the answer being you can't unless you have this feat.

sort of like everyone can do an unarmed strike, but tavern brawlers get 1d4

Adam

As far as I'm concerned, feats should make you better at things that anybody could reasonably attempt. Or things anybody with the required prerequisites could attempt I should say.

Szega

@Adam I'm cool with that, but this way that is not a boon, just an example.

sounds like it should be a boon though...

Adam

17:06

Well, there are two different DM styles. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't" and "If it doesn't say you can't then you can." That section was written almost certainly for the former.

godskook

@NautArch, I gotta disagree with your Actor Feat interpretation. The two conditionals do not always overlap, and thus, when they don't overlap they obviously don't both apply.

"Yes! When they both apply, at least" would be more accurate.

NautArch

17:26

@godskook that's totally fair. I think they're meant to overlap.

godskook

@NautArch, they're definitely meant to overlap in a lot of situations, but as far as I can tell, there's some circumstances in which they don't.

NautArch

@godskook i'm thinking of the actor feat like Michael Winslow

godskook

Such as when mimicing the sounds of a non-person creature.

NautArch

i think that can be a DM decision, but if you're going to invest an ASI into that feat, allowing creature sounds seems legit (as long as you're tyring to trick a person and not convince a bird you're a bird.)

godskook

The first passage couldn't give you advantage because you're not passing yourself off as a person

@NautArch, do you think he's asking about your opinion of what's a reasonble houserule or what's RulesAsReasonablyInterpreted?

(Or RAW or RAI, w/e)

Szega

17:29

@godskook he doesen't have to think, you can ask me :)

as I usually give my answers, go for RAI and embellish with personal preference/rulings

godskook

@Szega I could ask you, but I wanted his answer :P Depending on his response to me would inform on which question he thinks he's answering. If he thought houserules are an appropriate answer, its one discussion. If he doesn't think that, its another.

@Szega, although its useful to know that I accurately assessed which you were asking for. Saves me time :P

NautArch

@godskook if you're asking about the question i responded to, that querent was about "Speech". not about sounds.

Szega

because it got edited

I should roll it back

NautArch

oh

well, then i'd probably downvote me, too :D

godskook

@NautArch, does a Dragon count as a "person" for the purpose of Hold Person?

Mike Q

17:37

@godskook What system?

NautArch

@godskook no, they would not.

godskook

If not, then you have a reasonable interpretation of this feat where you can mimic a creature's speech(which is a sound they make), but it not be a "person's" speech.

@MikeQ, 5e.

NautArch

so in this caes, i should change my answer to advantage when using mimicing people to people, but can mimic sounds where others can't.

Mike Q

@godskook Hold Person begins: "Choose a humanoid that you can see within range." Dragons aren't humanoids, so I would say no it does not work.

Adam

@NautArch I'm not convinced of the idea that the feat lets you do anything that another creature can't attempt to do. Especially considering the related question.

You just get to do those things faster/better/more reliably.

godskook

17:41

@MikeQ, uh....you might want to catch up on the context here. That was a leading question for NautArch, rather than a question I needed answered for my sake.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: What's the best way to kill a PC in my party when they're alone? by user36678 on rpg.SE

Szega

Made the edit to the question to refer to vocalisation

Mike Q

Oops. There seemed to be multiple topics going on simultaneously, so I got confused which was which.

godskook

@MikeQ, no worries, just trying to re-calibrate the conversation so everyone's on the same page.

NautArch

@Adam if that's the case, then they SHOULD get advantage on it - even though it doesn't match the wording.

godskook

17:45

@NautArch, huh?

NautArch

@godskook The second part of the feat about mimicing creature sounds. IF everyone can do it, why list it? If everyone can do it, then it would make sense that it works with the first part of the feat, otherwise...why list it? If everyone can't do it, then the feat is granting you something no one else can do.

Adam

@NautArch As markovchain's answer suggests, the actor gets to try to mimic it with a chance of success after only hearing it for 1 minute. versus another player who could either need more time to study, or could have disadvantage for attempting such a thing without practice, or perhaps even is working against a higher DC.

godskook

@NautArch, what @Adam said.

Adam

Heck, the actor may not even need to make the roll at all, whereas somebody without the feat would.

NautArch

@Adam just playing devil's advocate: Why wouldn't they need to make the roll? Why couldn't someone without the feat try to mimic the sound of a bird? Are you saying it's an auto-fail in that case?

godskook

17:53

@NautArch, what's the normal rule on PHB p.165?

Or is that a reference for the feat?

Adam

No. It's not an auto-fail. I'm saying that there are ways to give the actor a bonus that isn't as simple as "advantage or no". Perhaps the DM feels that having the feat, or that training combined with the enemies' stupidity, is enough of a reason to assume that the actor could fool the enemy pretty easily and so doesn't have to roll. Doesn't mean that the untrained person couldn't try with a roll if they wanted to. Just that their plan would succeed certainly if they had an actor in the party.

NautArch

@godskook I've adjusted my answer.

@Adam Hmm, I still read it as needing a check.

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