English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:24 AM

Dear Scholars, there's nothing I dislike more than the vagueness off how quotations are typically cited. It's bad enough that you only cite last names, which are only half of the information necessary to adequately identify a person individually but abbreviating Shakespeare to Shak. just goes to show that you are going intentionally trying to go out of your way obfuscate their true origins. Today I need to know something: Who is Clarke?

SmokeDetector

1:37 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Meaning of government-run in paragraph? by voa4you on english.SE

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Until a few years ago I used to mix up pejorative and prerogative, in writing I mean.

@Tonepoet You mean of right?

Tonepoet

@englishstudent I do things like that as well. I keep on using epithet to mean something else that I think starts with an E, a word I can never really remember, which means something more along the lines of a word that is to be said for the sake of having some...

@englishstudent Yes. Oh well, it's not too big of a deal. Dr. Webster considered of and off to be the same word anyway. =P

englishstudent

1:53 AM

@Tonepoet I wonder how you pronounce tsundere. I mean I read that word, consulted the internet, and got confused at its pronunciation. =)

@Tonepoet How is it going Tonepoet.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent The t is the tricky part. I'm not sure if I can explain that.

englishstudent

Yeah, so do you pronounce that /t/ or is it silent?

Tonepoet

Otherwise it's basically soon der ay.

englishstudent

Yep.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent I can't even explain that. XD

englishstudent

1:55 AM

It's cool. xD

I will figure it out.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Have you looked at the bibliography?

englishstudent

Something like this: San-da-ray

Cerberus

The full title of Clarke should be in there.

I generally agree about abbreviations: they should only be used when really necessary.

In the age of computers, this is rarely the case.

In a paper dictionary, however, 'tis a whole nother matter.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Even if it exists, which I am not sure if it does, I can not, because it surely is not a part of the book that Google will allow me to preview.

Cerberus

2:16 AM

@Tonepoet That is indeed annoying.

But I'm sure it exists; why wouldn't it?

The notation is typical for a reference to a bibliography.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Hmm, I do not know why. Perhaps I just lack faith in my fellow man.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Noöne would use a reference to a work that nobody else would know.

Either it is a famous pre-modern author, or it's in the bibliography.

The name Clarke not being the former, it must be the latter.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus That's heartbreaking to hear. I was hoping it was the former, as I could've gotten my answer here if it was. XP

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Heh, nope.

Or the notation wouldn't be just a plain page number.

Very few classic authors have written only one work, and even fewer have written only one work that has plain modern page numbers.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus When you say classic author, I can't help but think you mean people like Homer and Plato.

Cerberus

2:32 AM

@Tonepoet Yes, or Shakespearse.

Tonepoet

I'm not sure if that's just my Websterian bias or also the fact that I know you are a Latinist at heart though. >_>

Cerberus

Those whose name is enough as a reference.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus I meant that statement to be a little more specific. =P

Tonepoet

4:25 AM

@Cerberus After searching for one of his quotes, and seeing a source that cited his book, I believe I found Mr. Clarke.

Mohamed Ahmed

6:16 AM

Is this sentence correct grammatically: Reading so much isn't of fun without sharing knowledge.

SBM

8:14 AM

@MohamedAhmed doesn't look like so

Mohamed Ahmed

8:31 AM

@SBM What do suggest?

M.A.R.

9:04 AM

@MohamedAhmed What do you want to convey?

@Tonepoet 90 close votes tell me they are.

Burdensome, as in, a damn lot to review

M.A.R.

9:40 AM

Just noting that the same proverb exists in Greek (τα χλωρα καιγονται με τα ξερα). Word for word it reads: The green/verdant are burned along with the brown/dry. The meaning is that the innocent often pay along with the guilty. — Thanassis 34 secs ago

Interesting

Mohamed Ahmed

10:04 AM

@M.A.R. it's an about-page for a FB page: "reading so much is not fun without sharing knowledge" (but I think that of could be used in similar contexts)

M.A.R.

It sounds very awkward at least

So drop the ''of''

Mohamed Ahmed

@M.A.R. I think I read this formula somewhere (sounds like not the same context!)

M.A.R.

@MohamedAhmed 'of fun' is not wrong, but something doesn't need to be wrong to be un-recommendable

Your sentence still could use some improvement after removing 'of'

Lemme think . . . hmm

Mohamed Ahmed

@M.A.R. I do need improved one

M.A.R.

> Reading a lot isn't fun if you're not sharing what you know.

Or ''you don't share what you know''

Mohamed Ahmed

10:15 AM

Is a lot better than so much in this context?

M.A.R.

Seems so

Cerberus

12:30 PM

@Tonepoet Well done!

Too bad the bibliography wasn't accessible, but you managed anyway.

tchrist

Do you know what this is?

zn̩ˈɛg̚zln̩ˈkʰwɛʃt͡ʃn̩

SBM

Ouch

That's strange

tchrist

"strange" was not the answer I was looking for, but certainly it is one I will accept. :)

Oops, move the stress marker.

Cerberus

"It is an excellent question"?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

12:44 PM

What about it?

I imagine one might pronounce it like that in a hurry.

tchrist

We have a Japanese speaker struggling with how to recognize words spoken quickly in English under our characteristic reduction and sometimes even elimination of unstressed syllables, particularly in connected speech.

0

Q: When sound is reduced, does how to identify syllables change?

I would like to ask how many syllables are counted in natives' minds in an occasion where reduction happens. When "and" is reduced into 'n', its syllable nucleus is lost, and, for example in this phrase "water n hot water", it's unclear for me that this reduced "n" is identified as a syllable or...

@snailplane I was wondering whether you had advice for this ^^^^^^ poor soul.

Something like [zn̩ˈɛg̚zln̩ˈkʰwɛʃt͡ʃn̩] for "It is an excellent question" just won't happen in Japanese.

Cerberus

Practice, practice, practice.

And be glad you're not learning French.

tchrist

This problem is exactly parallel to that of a Spanish speaker trying to listen to European Portuguese and being unable to hear the individual words in a flurry of consonants and a few stressed vowels, but little else.

@JohnFelz: Yes. That's not really a homophone issue -- it isn't limited to those words -- but rather a general tendency for tense and lax vowels to merge ("overlap" in the OP's terminology) before /r/. These are not all neutralized in some cases, in some dialects, including the ones that distinguish Mary, merry, and marry. As for the OP's question, Peter's right -- English speakers cue strongly on the shape of the word in terms of the rhythm of stressed and unstressed syllables. So does Japanese, but in a different way, since Japanese syllables are very different from English. — John Lawler Oct 9 '16 at 14:54

This asker has many, many questions about this same matter, and has not yet received an answer satisfactory to her, since she keeps asking what is essentially the same question over and over again.

@PeterShor has the most important advice -- and get used to stress-timing, as well. Those unstressed syllables are increased in rapid speech groups. That makes English sound like it's all being collapsed into one unpronounceable syllable sometimes. The hardest thing to hear is where one word ends and another begins; you can't recognize a word if you only hear a stream of things coming at you. — John Lawler 2 days ago

Cerberus

And is the question like "why is this bad thing so?"?

tchrist

No.

Cerberus

12:50 PM

@tchrist Don't you feel that French is worse?

tchrist

It's how we can manage to recognize which word in said under reduction and fast-speech rules.

The things a Japanese speaker instinctively listens for won't work in English, just like a Spanish speaker listening to Portuguese.

@Cerberus Ok, so this is a weird thing. I think it probably is, and yet French doesn't confuse me like that, probably from having dabbled in it for more than three decades.

Cerberus

And nothing works for French...

SBM

It applies to me at times as well sadly since I'm not or at least haven't been an English speaker for long

Cerberus

My experience with French is also 100x more extensive than with Portuguese.

@SBM A little bit is normal!

And yet I find French relatively difficult to listen to.

tchrist

I can read Portuguese far better than I can read French, and yet for listening, unless it's Brazilian, the opposite applies.

Cerberus

12:53 PM

I read French novels, but a film is too difficult.

tchrist

Yes.

Same.

Cerberus

The same applies to Portuguese as well, to some extent; but the extent would seem to be lesser.

Hmm that sentence sounds odd.

SBM

I can understand only five languages as of now though I'm not used to three of those. That's bad, right?

tchrist

What's bad?

Most people understand only one language.

SBM

Around the place where I live, it's essential to know at least three languages.

tchrist

12:57 PM

You live in Switzerland? :)

SBM

India

M.A.R.

Heh

@SBM Hmm, Hindi, English, and?

Odia

O-what

Quien?

12:58 PM

Because I stay in Odisha

Googling

haha

:p

Additionally sometimes Bangla, Sanskrit or even Telugu may be necessary?

I do not know the third on that list though

@M.A.R. Googling always produces strange results though

M.A.R.

Odia language

Odia (/əˈdiːə/) or Oriya (/ɒˈriːə/), both renderings of (Odia: ଓଡ଼ିଆ ଭାଷା) oḍiā , is a language spoken by 3.2% of India's population. It is an Indo-Aryan language that is spoken mostly in eastern India, with around 40 million native speakers as of the year 2016 from the state of Odisha, adjoining regions of its neighboring states and by the largely migrated Odia population across India. It is the predominant language of the Indian state of Odisha, where native speakers make up 80% of the population, and also is spoken in parts of West Bengal, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh and Andhra Pradesh. Odia is...

You're right

All the letters look like some form of punching

Cerberus

1:02 PM

@tchrist Are you sure?

M.A.R.

From different angles

@Cerberus Hellish dogs aren't most people

tchrist

@Cerberus The data are disputed.

Araucaria

@tchrist I'm trying to use this chat room as a mini corpus using the search feature. However, it will search for shall, but won't give me any results for will. Any idea how to get round this?

tchrist

@Araucaria Perhaps.

SBM

@M.A.R. Whoever that was he has an awfully awkward writing

M.A.R.

1:05 PM

@SBM The Wikipedia thingies?

SBM

Yes

M.A.R.

Those are computer-generated, not handwritten

Arabic looks ugly-ly tiny in this chat as well

tchrist

@Araucaria google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:http://… versus google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:http://…

Cerberus

Multilingualism

Multilingualism is the use of two or more languages, either by an individual speaker or by a community of speakers. It is believed that multilingual speakers outnumber monolingual speakers in the world's population. More than half of all Europeans claim to speak at least one other language in addition to their mother tongue. Multilingualism is becoming a social phenomenon governed by the needs of globalization and cultural openness. Owing to the ease of access to information facilitated by the Internet, individuals' exposure to multiple languages is becoming increasingly frequent, thereby promoting...

M.A.R.

شسیبلاتنم

Cerberus

1:06 PM

> Multilingualism is becoming a social phenomenon governed by the needs of globalization and cultural openness.

That's a bit silly.

As if it were new.

M.A.R.

هگپ فغحهدل ثدلمهسا هد شقشذهز. شزفعشممغ فاث سزقهحف هس شقشذه ذعف هفگس حثقسهشد

SBM

lack of clear fonts

Cerberus

Very tiny.

M.A.R.

It's like 5 in MS Word, haha

SBM

हिन्दी

looks better

Cerberus

1:08 PM

That looks nice, is it Odia?

SBM

hindi

Cerberus

Ah.

Tonepoet

@Araucaria My worst fears have come true. People are using internet chatrooms as sources of English. Rest in piece, gud riteing.

M.A.R.

Curves have always been astonishing <lenny face>

Araucaria

@tchrist Yes, that works. And will work for 'll too. Good grief there's a lot of biblical English in this chat room!

SBM

1:09 PM

ଓଡ଼ିଆ

M.A.R.

@Araucaria Isn't "will" a stop word?

SBM

looks bad

M.A.R.

You should probably download the transcript and do operations on it manually

Araucaria

@M.A.R. I wouldn't know. What is a stop word?

M.A.R.

Jason C downloaded and uploaded the whole transcript of Tavern on the meta.

tchrist

1:10 PM

@Araucaria ¡Feliz Sábado Santo!

SBM

Tavern?

M.A.R.

Stop words

In computing, stop words are words which are filtered out before or after processing of natural language data (text). Though stop words usually refer to the most common words in a language, there is no single universal list of stop words used by all natural language processing tools, and indeed not all tools even use such a list. Some tools specifically avoid removing these stop words to support phrase search. Any group of words can be chosen as the stop words for a given purpose. For some search engines, these are some of the most common, short function words, such as the, is, at, which, and on...

tchrist

In Taberna....

M.A.R.

@SBM Main chatroom for meta.SE

Scary scary place

SBM

Oh

Tonepoet

1:11 PM

@Araucaria Well of course. The Bible is unarguably the single most influential book in the English language.

M.A.R.

@Arau "the" is a stop word, so you can't search for it

Cerberus

@Araucaria Oh, is there? What are you researching?

M.A.R.

Dunno if ''will'' is as well

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=the&room=95

Tonepoet

Well, actually, on second thought, I suppose it could be argued that the bible is a collection of books, but the main point still stands.

M.A.R.

So you get 0 results for a keyword that has been used like literally a million times

Araucaria

1:13 PM

@tchrist Gracias. ¡A ti tambien! (dunno if that's correct or not ...)

SBM

Spanish, Portugese what?

All languages in Europe look alike

tchrist

@Araucaria Close enough. But what do you mean about Biblical English?

M.A.R.

@SBM All languages in Asia look different

Except most of them

SBM

I don't know how people from some countries write full sentences in 2 letters

@M.A.R. The Tavern is really scary

M.A.R.

@SBM o.O

SBM

1:18 PM

o.O ?

tchrist

@SBM Spanish is “a ti también”; Portuguese is “a ti também”; Brazilian is “a você também”.

terdon

@SBM Έτσι νομίζεις!

SBM

Greek?

terdon

Yep

European but quite different.

As are Finnish or Basque, although they use the Latin alphabet.

Russian is also European, as are all the Slav languages.

SBM

Greek letters sound pretty much like the first letters in their English spelling, I guess

Araucaria

1:23 PM

@tchrist Stuff like this: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."!

SBM

Wait sounds like Shakespearean English

tchrist

Jul 25 '14 at 22:24, by Cerberus

> His ransom there is none but I shall pay: I'll hale the Dauphin headlong from his throne, — His crown shall be the ransom of my friend; Four of their lords I'll change for one of ours.

Araucaria

@tchrist Yes, that kind of stuff is everyday English round here!

tchrist

Jan 4 '13 at 14:15, by tchrist

The dog, he shallna keep it lang,
To flinch we’ll mak him fain again;
We’ll hang him hie upon a tree,
And James shall have his ain again.

SBM

Um

sounds weird

Araucaria

1:30 PM

@tchrist That sounds quite modern to me! (live in between Edinburgh and Glasgow half the year ...)

@SBM Haven't looked it up, but might be Burns ...

@SBM Is Shakespearean ... :)

SBM

burns == that injury caused by fire

terdon

@SBM First letters?

SBM

I don't know

Greek

The last time I saw somebody using Greek

was when he was wearing a rho beta rho t-shirt

And in India those three letters can make laughter out of nowhere

because of Hindi

terdon

@SBM Ah yes. Well that has absolutely no relation to what they're pronounced like in Greek.

Well, rho is close.

Araucaria

@tchrist "And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide." That's you - don't know a fast way of putting in a link, though

tchrist

1:35 PM

Jul 25 '16 at 19:04, by tchrist

@ktm5124 Job 13:15: “Aunque él me quitare la vida, en él confiaré” —Jorge Luis Borges, “Deutsches Requiem”, El Aleph, 1949.

That's another one.

“Though he should take my life, in him shall I trust.”

@Araucaria You missed some: chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=shalt

Tonepoet

1:53 PM

@SBM Shakespeare's works roughly coincide with the publication of the King James Bible in particular, so that should not be surprising. Granted, he probably used a Geneva bible, but that's another issue altogether.

Araucaria

@tchrist Wow! Think what you could try and show with that corpus data. 650 uses of shalt ... The word shalt is twice as common as the word shirk round here!

tchrist

No shirking in this chat.

Tonepoet

@Araucaria We prefer shrugging, which we spell as: ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Araucaria

@Tonepoet There, you have it, ¯_(ツ)_/¯

terdon

@Araucaria Now, try the same search but filter out the outliers: cerb and tchrist

SBM

2:03 PM

Never say "Rho Beta Rho" in India

tchrist

@Araucaria Here are over 200 more that you missed.

Araucaria

@terdon I did, I got zero results :D

terdon

@SBM Why? What does it mean?

@Araucaria Heh. Not surprised.

SBM

Rho == cry

Beta (as in US pronunciation) == son

terdon

So it would mean cry son, cry? Doesn't seem particularly offensive.

Or funny.

tchrist

2:09 PM

Kyrie eleison.

Araucaria

@tchrist ?

tchrist

cry son cry

And Greek.

Araucaria

@tchrist That's more what we might expect. Won't v shan't - 3,300: 200. Still quite a lot for shan't, though.

tchrist

It's really only eight and twenty.

Araucaria

@tchrist Yes, I was forgetting that the numbers don't count for anything there unless you count them yourself ...

Here's why I was investigating:

9

Q: Difference between will and shall

What is the difference between will and shall in modern spoken English? For example I have the following sentences: He will arrive on Tuesday. He shall arrive on Tuesday. Are there any rules specifying usage of will and shall? Reopen note: I looked at this question here: "Shall"...

meaning word-usage modal-verbs

SBM

2:23 PM

Ouch

Tonepoet

3:10 PM

@Araucaria Modern more or less disqualifies me from even attempting to answer, and any question that removes it would probably be marked as a dupe anyway. XP

The only thing I would probably note is that although shall has similar trends to will, it seems to be dropping off at a faster rate, which I take to mean that more people are using will for both cases. =P

Mitch

@terdon 'will' might be a stop word or not depending on which stopword list is used by SE's search

Google search on the SE domain might be better. They seem to index even 'the'

terdon

@Mitch I think you meant to reply to someone else.

Mitch

@tchrist "everybody do his own..."

@terdon sure, probably

terdon

Tom!

Mitch

But you're here now!

terdon

3:17 PM

And I'm doing the Vatican Rag to boot.

Mitch

@M.A.R. the stopword list depends on what the search engine has been set up as

@terdon I don't remember boots being involved at all

terdon

I know. I improved it.

Mitch

Oh you.

SBM

3:36 PM

um, what

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer: What is the suitable word here? "granted" loan or "allotted" loan, or "provided" loan or any better word? by George Laurent on english.SE

terdon

@SBM Sorry, we're referring to a rather obscure (these days) song. youtube.com/watch?v=3f72CTDe4-0

Araucaria

@Tonepoet Yes, that does seem to be what the corpus linguists are saying ...

SBM

Um, YouTube showed this on the right?

"Weird Al" Yankovic - Word Crimes

►

terdon

OK?

That one's fun too

Mitch

3:42 PM

Nobody uses shall in the us anymore except in bible study and law

terdon

Nobody except tchrist, you mean.

Mitch

Uh...yeah

Shall we dance?

Cerberus

Be careful with "never" and "nobody" statements!

Mitch

Ok maybe Jennifer Lopez too

Cerberus

"Shall we" is in fact used in America too.

Mitch

3:44 PM

Not in everyday circumstances

Cerberus

I must disagree.

Not everyone there speaks like Trump!

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Yeah, some speak like Bush! =P

terdon

@Mitch Perhaps as the set phrase Shall we?

SBM

@Tonepoet Some also speak like Trump, :(

Cerberus

I'd love to go to the mall.

Shall we?

Or whatever people like to do.

Tonepoet

4:02 PM

@Cerberus Although that might be one of the more common usages of shall, I would suppose it is far more common for that person to simply say "Let's go to the mall!" and drag whomsoever happens to be in arm's reach there, whether they wish it to be so or not. This is especially the case if that person is not normally interested in going to the mall to shop, or has prior obligations which should prevent the occasion.

Cerberus

But so what?

The burden of proof is on the "nobody"-sayer.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus But so Mitch did qualify his statement with everyday. =P

Cerberus

I don't make any frequency statements.

"Never" is quite different from "uncommon".

The latter would not have elicited my comments.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus You tacitly indicated a frequency judgement by rejecting Mitch's correction. =P

Cerberus

4:47 PM

Did I?

Tonepoet

5:15 PM

@Cerberus Oh yes. Even if we do not assume that you mean the average person would regularly use that sentence every day, you are at least indicating that at least one person uses the word shall every day. That is not an unreasonable assumption, but it is still an assumption. =P

Mitch

@Cerberus maybe as an ironic anachronism

Down with shall! Long live "Imma"!

Imma let you continue but...

Indeed.

lets monocle drop

Mitch

5:41 PM

@Cerberus a broad range of probabilities are implied by uncommon

M.A.R.

5:57 PM

I have never eaten food I have never eaten.

EAT THAT DOUBLE ''NEVER'', Cerberus

Færd

@M.A.R. Do you mean double negative?

@Mitch Uncommonly.

M.A.R.

@Færd Since when did you become Google?

Færd

In giving auto suggestions?

It's just that I ain't never heard of double 'never'.

(Correction: auto correction)

M.A.R.

6:13 PM

@Færd You don't need to

Færd

Awlright.

user8469759

Hi guys, if "make" means "to force someone to do something he doesn't want to do" and to let means "give permission to do something that is wanted to"

Is there any verb like make but that doesn't imply the "forcing" aspect

Færd

You can have someone do(ing) something.

Or get someone to do something.

user8469759

6:29 PM

Can "have" in this context be used like "I'll have you cook the roast today?

Færd

@user8469759 It can, but that doesn't sound normal. Why not just Cook the roast today?

See number 27 on this page.

And number 22 here.

Anyway.

Yesterday a pack of free-ranging dogs maimed a young boy in a town in central Iran.

They literally peeled the skin off the top of his head and otherwise injured him.

Apparently other attacks have been reported too, along with positive cases of rabies.

On the other hand there are some who see the solution in killing off those dogs. Some even take ruthless measures to do that.

And then there are those who blow this out of proportion and make it out like there's an all-out genocide going on against dogs in Iran.

What's the solution? I don't know. Maybe painless castration, if the problem is indeed serious.

M.A.R.

6:46 PM

The problem isn't that serious here

@Færd Inorite, people are stupid

Færd

Speaking for myself, I have to deal with an increasing number of wandering dogs on my treks outside the city.

M.A.R.

The stupidest are Iranians that deliberately buy in and help spread these news because of losing faith in anything Iranian

@Færd Maybe doggies like south better

Or hmm, Tehran

Færd

Yeah. Some environments suits them better hear apparently.

And they do nothing but pestering me.

I mean, they try real hard to frighten me (by charging toward me and snarling etc), but they can't, so they just try to annoy me in any way possible.

Bur they do frighten other people.

I wish this could be managed somehow.

M.A.R.

Maybe it needs to be as large a city as Tehran for it to be a serious problem

Færd

I guess some smaller towns have it worse.

That piece of news was about Najaf Abad. People were outraged there.

Here, you don't get out of the city, or wander alone in big parks at night, and you're safe from dogs.

You barely see any in town, except for pet dogs.

M.A.R.

6:59 PM

Makes sense actually

Færd

To be fair to them, some of them are pretty harmless. Even genial with people. But they're not the problem.

I haven't heard of a rabies outbreak around here, but if the danger looms poorer areas, then that's something to be forestalled.

Færd

7:27 PM

(looms --> looms over)

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…