The Reading Room

4:00 AM

@Emrakul Hm. I think that the way this site seems to define it (and I'm not 100% certain I would fully agree), text refers to actual words in a human language. Not visual or sound elements. I'm tempted to say "language that has grammar", as a rough approximation, but that's just a random attempt at building a rule of thumb.

BESW

More specifically, that the further a work's origin lies from the "canon" of Western literature, the less willing we are to forgive its deviations from that structure.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Hamlet And new ones are created. Via the same mechanisms as those dying languages were created before. I can't understand a bit of Cockney, frankly. There are more dialects of English than you can shake a dictionary at. Latin was a hegemon language... until it split off into a bunch of different ones. Thus is the case with most memetic constructs.

BESW

We've accepted ee cummings' eccentric relationship with punctuation and syntax, but editors who see even the smallest deviation from standard punctuation in an indigenous poem will "fix" it as a typo.

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To I think that definition is valid, but gives an incomplete, or at minimum not-as-useful definition of text.

BESW

@DVK-on-Ahch-To So, again, this is drawing false equivalence between natural, organic processes and man-made ones.

The languages which die out today are not naturally vanishing. My island is currently desperately trying to salvage a language which was forbidden in public schools by the US within living memory.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

4:04 AM

@BESW That's an interesting example, actually. Are they deviating on purpose, and is that actually known? (incidentally, leaving aside my personal opinion of ee cummings's punctuation - which is "fix it!" :) - did the initial editors try to fix that punctuation issue when ee cummings was just starting to publish as unknown author?)

@Emrakul What would be yours? I'm not totally stuck on the one I noted earlier, just don't have anything better I can think of.

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Truthfully, I'd start by defining it as inclusively as I could. I'd probably start with something like, "a message conveyed by a medium."

user61230

But I think this is a similar problem as defining "literature": it's hard to come up with one, singular, generally applicable definition. I recognize that my "definition" is deeply problematic for that reason.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@BESW Nope, merely recognizing that history has happened before. Hegemonic cultures are nothing new. Disappearing and absorbed cultures are nothing new. Fragmentation of hegemonic societies are also nothing new. None of it is "organic" or "not organic", merely things that tend to happen due to objective factors influencing human society.

@Emrakul That seems too inclusive. TCP protocol fits your definition. I am pretty sure TCP protocol is NOT literature, by any means.

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To I mean, I count stuff like that as somewhat equivocational. You know I don't mean to include TCP packets.

BESW

SFF.SE has a lot of arguments over what counts. RPG.SE doesn't, despite similar arguments existing in the wider community. I wonder why.

LIT.SE may have to face that defining literature is part of the literary dialogue.

2

DVK-on-Ahch-To

4:18 AM

@Emrakul Right, you don't mean to, but that's permitted by the definition. Thus, definition needs to be less open.

@BESW SFF has - by design - a somewhat artificial genre-based scope, so arguments over artificial scope's boundaries are expected.

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Yes, if you hold the definition in the absolute strictest possible sense, then it's permitted. But both of us know that isn't what I meant, so there's no reason to be that strict about the definition. I'm not trying to be semantically perfect, because semantic perfection is impossible.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Emrakul Ugh. That gets into "I know it when I see it" area. Which is doomed to failure because everyone knows differently :(

user61230

@DVK-on-Ahch-To But that's why we ask questions and hold discussions, rather than try and come up with one unifying phrase or umbrella.

user61230

Like it or not, at some level, everything on Stack Exchange comes down to "I know it when I see it." Discussions like this are here to clarify what in particular we're looking for.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Emrakul True. But in context of those discussions, some general rules of thumb that are commonly agreed upon will still be required. Is something that's based on sound in or out of scope and why? The answer doesn't matter (kind of), the fact that the answer has to exist, matters.

user61230

4:25 AM

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Sure, I agree with that.

user61230

I don't think the answer has to be clear, mind you.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Emrakul That, i'm not sure I agree with. I'm a programmer, I yearn for clear definitions :)

user61230

I can get that!

BESW

Then lit may not be a comfortable fit for you.

Literature at its best is about the co-existence of mutually exclusive concepts, and how the clash of opposing ideas reveals new insights.

It does not ask that the opposing ideas resolve themselves into a single truth.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Damn, ran out of stars for the day. Sign to get offline. 'nite everyone

user61230

4:33 AM

'night, @DVK!

BESW

ttfn

muru

4:55 AM

I don't chat much here, so can someone tell me what's up with the massive downvoting on the mod nomination post? Are the nominated users really that divisive?

Rand, I can understand somewhat from the comments, but the others ...

BESW

I think it's less the nominees and more the site; folks have very strong ideas about the direction of the site and moderation can play a large role in that.

user61230

I'd agree. I think people just have strong feelings about what we Want To Be (TM).

muru

Hmm. Will they extend the private beta until we settle down or something?

Doesn't make much sense to go public with appointed pro-tems if everybody is drawing battelines

BESW

Eh, voting is just one factor considered in choosing pro-tems.

muru

I know, I'm one myself (didn't win the voting league :P)

Mithrandir

8:40 AM

Wow, that was a... Deep conversation last night. I just read the transcript. O_o

Mithrandir

9:03 AM

@Emrakul question: does anyone actually refer to you as they/them like I did in my nomination?

BESW

No, I'm the collective entity.

Mithrandir

I agree with that message. *nods*

+23/-14 for me. O_o

Ankit Sharma

I hope you know final call is in CM's hand

BESW

9:19 AM

I tend to be wary of folks who are especially eager for a mod role.

user61230

@Mithrandir Not usually, but I'm used to it. Stack Exchange isn't a good place to nudge people about pronouns. I really do appreciate it, though.

BESW

I had somebody ask me for preferred pronoun last week!

user61230

Really! On Stack? What was the context?

BESW

A meta post where a third party was describing an interaction between myself and another citizen, and the indeterminate pronouns were getting ridiculously messy.

The other citizen wasn't available, but you may have noticed I'm almost always chattable.

user61230

Ahah, yeah, that does happen, sometimes. It can get, a liiittle confusing sometimes.

user61230

9:30 AM

The only real downside is when you're in a conversation where you could be talking about person A, B, or both A and B. Because, "they" could be any of them.

BESW

There's also the ESL thing.

user61230

English as a Second Language?

BESW

Yeah. Pronouns do... fun... things across languages, and my quote of the day is "English is a phonetic hellscape."

user61230

Hey! That was your quote yesterday!

user61230

...or was it earlier this morning, I don't really remember.

BESW

9:41 AM

It's the same day for me.

[is frying tofu for dinner]

user61230

No wonder I'm confused.

user61230

And, yeah. There are multiple reasons I don't really nudge anyone about it on Stack Exchange.

user61230

It basically boils down to 1) avoiding having to explain it; b} avoiding some people who... might not be the happiest about it; III] I prefer it, but I don't like to worry about it; iv> I'm open to talking about it in private, but I don't really like talking about it in public; it feels too much like a political statement.

Mithrandir

...Your numeration is wonky.

Emrak needs two more votes for their nomination ;)

23

A: Accepting nominations — Who should moderate this site?

Notes: This nominee would be a good choice because they have shown themselves to be a good moderator over at Puzzling, and has shown themselves to be active in helping with the moderation on this site. They are also active on main Meta, which is always good in a mod :) Emrakul is also qu...

user61230

Oh, whoa, what, +23?

Mithrandir

9:51 AM

Yep. You're at the top by a very large margin.

user61230

Iiii... was not expecting that, huh.

Mithrandir

Rand has you beat for total upvotes, though. You have 30,he has 31.

user61230

How dare. It's time for another fight to the death.

Mithrandir

...but he has 20 downvotes and you have 7,so...

And I'm lagging behind at +23/-14.

*yawn* I went to sleep far too late last night.

BESW

@Emrakul My condentulations.

user61230

10:05 AM

@BESW You've invented a new word!

Mithrandir

Congratudolences?

Ankit Sharma

@Mithrandir what is that

Mithrandir

A clearer version imo

Ankit Sharma

congratudolences

Interjection: congratudolences

(humorous) Used to express congratulations and condolences simultaneously.
1996 October 31, Dennis Monbourquette, “Re: DemoniK for hire”, in alt.1d, Usenet,
: And soon to be an eligible bachelor guy!
Congratudolences, or whatever.

Noun: congratudolences pl ‎(plural only)

(humorous) Simultaneous congratulations and condolences.
1918–1920, Octavus Roy Cohen, Come Seven, page 354,
The place was crowded. It was crowded with men who knew Cass intimately. A score crowded commiseratingly around him. “Ise sayin’ tha’s a devil of a trick fo’ a feller's gal to do, Cass — run off an’ make ma’iage with another man!” Cass ducked and tried to get away. Bud Peaglar extended earnest congratudolences. “Bet I woul’n’t stan’ fo’ it if’n I was you, Cass.”
2005, Colin Baenziger, quoted in Mark Woods, “New Clay manager has his hands full”, in The Florida Times-Union, 2005 October 12,
"When I have friends elected to the city council, I offer them congratudolences," Baenziger said....

hmmm

user61230

Oh, oh dear.

Mithrandir

10:08 AM

o_o

Ankit Sharma

O.o

Mithrandir

-1

Q: How to help a postgraduate student to write a book?

What is the best way to help a weak student who has already completed her post-graduation but has also secured a result much worse than her expected one during the completion of graduation, to write … a good quality book which shall be recommended to higher secondary level students after its publ...

Can't figure out what to flag that as

Ankit Sharma

@Mithrandir finally I got a site where I don't have account :p

Mithrandir

I find it odd that one of the mods hasn't been there in 11 days.

The others only around 11 hours.

Ankit Sharma

people can have life outside SE site too

If it's that urgent then it should be raised in meta or with some CM

user61230

10:20 AM

@AnkitSharma A-are you... are you sure?

2

BESW

@Emrakul Sure, otherwise they wouldn't be able to leave passive-aggressive "let me Google that for you" comments.

Ankit Sharma

@Emrakul flagged as primary opinion based

Mithrandir

@AnkitSharma I don't...

Ankit Sharma

fair enough

Mithrandir

@AnkitSharma not urgent, just a bit strange that he's been that inactive.

Ankit Sharma

10:27 AM

Not following that site but if nobody there to compensate his absence then point should be raised. Else if other mods are efficient, it's not that big of concern.

user61230

Mods sometimes dip out for a bit, too. There are a lot of tools for keeping things smooth when that happens.

BESW

It may also be temporary, or in anticipation of a changing of the guard.

Mithrandir

Well I came in fourth place by voting for protem there :P

b_jonas

10:42 AM

@BESW So Worldbuilding was actually a good site once? Maybe I should look at old questions there.

BESW

@b_jonas It's been struggling since day one.

But the tide's definitely shifted.

Ankit Sharma

Asked a Hemingway question on movies.se, now I wish I can ask one here too

b_jonas

@Riker If only we could collect those and also the American English enforcing pedants and then make them fight to death for our enjoyment... but the problem is, that will never work, because they wouldn't be able to agree whether they're dueling for their honor or for their honour.

@DVK-on-Ahch-To No way. Do most people buy those kinds of popular books to actually read them, as opposed to for putting them to their bookshelf or otherwise exhibiting it for social signaling?

Benjamin

@b_jonas Yes, unfortunately they do. Otherwise, we would have a few million potential members of this site.

b_jonas

10:59 AM

@BESW Heh. But that's not only the editors. If a random person wrote something like "Szügyeikben tőrt keze forgat" or "Sok-száz buzakalász érik, hajlik,", outside of a direct quote, I'd consider it an error. But I respect those masters of poetry (Arany János and Weöres in these two cases) that I allow them to break the rules, because they understand enough about the language that they know when they can break which rules and when they can't.

("Suhog a fü sürüjén", also from Weöres, is pushing it though.)

BESW

@b_jonas Right. And just one or two instances of that, sure. But this is about patterns.

And it's not just random people either.

b_jonas

@Emrakul Luckiliy we don't have to define what "literature" is, because our site isn't bound by that one word in the title. We have to decide what sort of questions we want asked because they help make the site better, and what questions we don't.

BESW

Perhaps more importantly, though, it's about those rules. English doesn't have rules. It has broad guidelines, and specific contexts have styles and standards.

Applying formal English punctuation standards to a Palauan author writing a multilingual poem? Not really gonna fly with me.

b_jonas

@BESW Yes, Lakatos's translation of the Aeneid is FULL of these words that would normally count as misspellings. You find some on every page.

BESW

By "patterns," I mean patterns of gatekeeping and curation, where writing from a particular context is consistently less leniently edited.

b_jonas

11:09 AM

And the standards change too. Back when Arany wrote his poems, every poem used capital letters at the start of every line, but no capitalized letter at the start of sentences. In the twentieth century, people figured out that was a stupid habit, so now only half of poetry is printed that way. I have two books of Weöres's children's poems, with high overlap in content, and they differ in this convention.

BESW

Works from Oceanic voices are evaluated by mainland standards and forms for both content and format, and those found lacking are discarded--or edited until they fit.

The magazine I worked for sought to be a space where Oceanic authors writing really amazing works could be heard without having to translate or gloss, or try to cram a Pasifika expression of authorship into a Euro-American category, or worry that portraying the harsh edges of Pacific reality would make it less publishable.

Pacific literature is what's called "undertheorised," meaning it hasn't been studied enough for a formal theory base and scholarly discourse to really dig itself into the works yet.

That means they're defining and exploring what "Pacific literature" can mean: we're talking about peoples who didn't develop their own written forms, and are now writing (in dozens of languages, across a multitude of cultures and experiences) into contested terrain already occupied by influences from Westernisation, militarism, and popular culture from three continents.

That process can't happen if the primary venues for publication only accept work that's familiar.

We can see similar modes in Africa as colonising powers withdrew from countries, leaving behind the ragged tatters of old narrative traditions plastered over with new colonial ones. When the only theatre you have in town is a Proscenium stage, it's an uphill battle to put on plays which weren't designed for that venue.

Benjamin

11:26 AM

Would a question about the definition of a genre be on-topic?

BESW

Many post-colonial art communities start by using the language and forms of the absent coloniser to explore their own realities, and then slowly incorporate their own languages and their own forms--recovered traditional forms and new forms for their new reality--into new works over time.

@Benjamin I think so, but be specific about what you're really asking.

Genre is a minefield.

3

I prefer to think of it as a tool for categorising a work's audience, rather than a description of the work itself.

Benjamin

Like, what characterises a book as being a "coming of age" story?

@BESW Or, what characteristics are required for a work to be "literary fiction"?

BESW

[ducks and covers]

Benjamin

11:41 AM

@BESW So, no?

BESW

Well, I'd VTC as too broad.

Nobody regulates these things, they're mostly used by publishers to get books into the hands of the audiences they think will buy 'em.

And something like "literary fiction"? What IS that?

It's like asking for a universal definitive answer on the nature of "classic."

("Classic" is whatever Coke says it is.)

Benjamin

What about: Is ______ a coming of age story?

Or, how does ______ reflect on the human condition?

Or @BES

BESW

@Benjamin That'd be on pretty solid ground; if you don't provide a definition of COA each answer will have to.

doppelgreener

@Benjamin that's an invitation to a discussion, unless it's a book where the answer is very clear

Benjamin

@BESW Okay, then I think that will have to be the way I form it.

BESW

11:49 AM

@Benjamin It's also kinda begging the question.

Benjamin

@doppelgreener But, I think it would still be short enough for this format.

@BESW What question?

BESW

@Benjamin As always, the Stack works best when we ask what's really bothering us. Do you have a book that you're curious about the genre of?

doppelgreener

@BESW because it may not reflect on the human condition at all, but it's asking us to seek out why it might be, right?

BESW

Right.

Benjamin

@BESW Sort of, I think I know what it is, but I don't really know how to explain why I think that is what it is.

doppelgreener

11:51 AM

@Benjamin "Begging the question" -- a confusing label if I've ever seen one -- is a fallacy where you assume something to be true without any evidence other than the claim itself.

Benjamin

@doppelgreener True, so what about: Does ______ reflect on the human condition?

BESW

In fact, the notion that any literature truly offers insight into universal human truth is... problematic, and probably best left for the religious literature.

doppelgreener

In essence, asking "How does Star Wars reflect on the human condition?" is assuming, without evidence, that Star Wars reflects on the human condition then asks us to explore it, without first examining any evidence that it does reflect on the human condition.

Benjamin

@BESW Oh, it definitely doesn't offer 'universal human truth', but many books do have some element of reflection on the human condition.

@doppelgreener Oh, that is a funny phrase.

doppelgreener

@Benjamin Yes. The name totally threw me off understanding it at all several times when I tried to understand what people meant by it. 8l

Benjamin

11:53 AM

@doppelgreener So, would asking the "Does it?" question and hoping for greater explanation by the answerer work?

BESW

Doesn't help that a number of folks have started using "begging the question" to mean... something totally different.

Benjamin

@BESW What do they use it to mean?

BESW

Modern usage has started to take it to mean "raise the question."

Which is, you know, exactly the opposite of assuming an important question is already answered.

doppelgreener

Yeah, I've seen it used that way.

Benjamin

So, do you too think a question of the form: Is ______ a coming of age story?, would work?

BESW

11:56 AM

I'd be curious to know why you're asking.

Feels kinda like there's a better, juicier question underneath.

Benjamin

@BESW I am just wondering it because it feels sort of like other coming of age stories, but it has a different focus, less on the character's development, but more on the development of their 8 year long research project.

BESW

Ah. That's juicy.

"X feels like a COA but doesn't share most of the gross characteristics I associate with COAs. What's up with that?"

It's better than "Is X a COA?" because it's explaining why you're unsure which gives answerers a point to dig into.

And it's better than "What's a COA?" because it gives a good example to poke at.

Benjamin

@BESW I assume you mean gross as in obvious, right?

BESW

Right.

Benjamin

@BESW But, how could I distill this into a short title?

@BESW Well, it was a coming-of-age, so I couldn't be sure.

BESW

12:02 PM

Heheh.

Titles don't have to be complete and thorough.

Benjamin

@BESW So, something like: What aspects of ____ make it coming-of-age-esque?

BESW

That sounds nice and pithy.

doppelgreener

@BESW I agree with this being pretty effective as a question to respond to

I've got not just my own armchair commentary to offer, but I've got whatever's going on for the person asking this to respond to and handle, and I better understand what's going on for them in general which in itself helps me respond to them.

BESW

As always "Describe your situation and where it's tripping you up" is the best policy.

Anything else quickly veers into "answers may not be useful" territory.

Bookworm

12:27 PM

0

Q: Why is "pensión" left untranslated in "The Shadow of the Wind"?

In The Shadow of The Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón, they attempt to find a place to live for Fermín Romero de Torres, a former street beggar with a great mind, who they hire to help them find the books that their customers request. In the English version of the text, they continue to use the Spanish ...

translation carlos-ruiz-zafon the-shadow-of-the-wind

Benjamin

12:49 PM

Relieving some stress by writing tag wikis.

Mithrandir

@Benjamin o_o I just reviewed 16 of them.

BTW, did you vote on the mod post?

Benjamin

@Mithrandir Yes, you and a few others got my vote. Thanks for reviewing them!

Librarian

0

Q: Shouldn't we mark spoilers in our questions?

Wouldn't it be practical for us to briefly mark questions as containing spoilers (see this revision as an example)?

discussion

Benjamin

@Librarian This is a duplicate of meta.literature.stackexchange.com/questions/34/…

@Librarian One more vote and this is gone.

Mithrandir

Not gone, exactly, just closed...

Benjamin

1:02 PM

@Mithrandir True, but let's say gone from our minds.

Mithrandir

Remember, we shouldn't delete dupes because they can be a signpost

... Duped

Ankit Sharma

@Librarian you are a librarian now O.o

I miss good old bookworm

Mithrandir

Bookworm is for the main shoe

*site

Librarians keep the library in order. Bookworms use the library.

Ankit Sharma

Librarians are boring :p

BESW

Them's fightin' words.

Ankit Sharma

1:06 PM

ohh so meta bot is renamed and main site bot is bookworm

Loong

I have bookworm traces in my Silmarillion.

Mithrandir

I'm a librarian

No I'm not

Ankit Sharma

ouch

Mithrandir

I'm a Bookworm

Ankit Sharma

go make ur mind first

Loong

1:08 PM

@Mithrandir stop eating my Silmarillion.

Mithrandir

Someone else review tag wiki edits

Ankit Sharma

1:23 PM

I wish I can

BESW

1:34 PM

I'm paging through Morson's Narrative and Freedom, and he's talking about the utopia as "the end of history" when "the anachronizing of beliefs is over" and "we shall no longer need to fear that our present opinions and values will be outdated."

And that's not jiving with my understanding of, say, Pasifika concepts of time. So I'm pondering a question about where utopias come from, geoculturally.

It's especially interesting because Morson's examples are Russian, straddling the end of the Imperial era and the roots of Soviet propaganda. And Russia spans such a vast space both geographically and culturally.

Morson tends to treat all of Russia as a single entity, but for the purposes of his thesis that actually seems to work. Which implies some intriguing notions I'm still percolating.

Certainly his broad ideas about "narrative time" apply nicely to many different cultures, but I'm not sure the subset of utopian time is as easily transferred.

Mithrandir

Are you on Philosophy?

You seem to be writing like a philosopher :P

Prospective mods might want to look at this:

130

Q: Moderator Cheat Sheet

As an alternative to the other FAQ format being fleshed out here on Meta Stack Exchange, I'd like to propose something far more terse that covers the bare essential mechanics of being a moderator. Feel free to add more questions, but keep them short: this isn't the place to get into complex mod...

support moderators moderator-faq

Mithrandir

1:53 PM

@Randal'Thor I found the beta site with 4 mods. Chinese language.

b_jonas

I for one would prefer some spoilers covered, but not too much. I wonder if I should point that out by asking whether Michel whispered to her mother <insert twist ending here> when the novel doesn't tell what he whispered.

DForck42

@Randal'Thor agreed

b_jonas

Hmm, I might actually ask that.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@b_jonas I almost exclusively read e-books, therefore I don't really know. But I somehow doubt that "50 shades" is used for status signalling. The kinds of people who'd be impressed by someone reading kinky literature are the kind of people who consider 50 shades as a bad fanfic with pretensions of being about kink and no clue what real BDSM is about.

DForck42

mornin

b_jonas

2:04 PM

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Yes, maybe that's not the case with 50 shades then.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

I'm not sure though, that's just my subjective opinion.

b_jonas

So, what's our current spoiler hiding policy, in titles and in question bodies separately?

Should I make the title "What did Michel tell his mother?" or "Did Michel tell his mother that <twist ending>?"?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Yikes!

Me: posts a comment trying to help a new user who posted a new answer

Experienced user #1: This answer is wrong because it offers something OP didn't want

DForck42

@b_jonas there's a meta

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Me: OK, let me go verify that scrolls up to the question

Me: Oups! I was the OP! It was my question embarassed look

DForck42

2:10 PM

17

Q: Should we assume that questions about a book spoil that book, or should we use spoiler markup?

The title pretty much sums it up. It seems plausible to me that an assumption that a question about a book is liable to contain spoilers is enough reason to not use spoiler markup. I wanted to ask and be sure, though.

discussion spoilers

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Began, the Spoiler War, has.

DForck42

@b_jonas tl;dr: don't put spoilers in titles, and a question should be understandable without reading anything in the spoiler markup

b_jonas

Ok. Then title sohuld be like "What did Michel tell his mother?"

or "What did Michel secretly tell his mother?"

hmm no, that's no good, it might not have been a secret

I can't say "secretly"

Ok, let me find an English translation of the novel now.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

In my experience, most questions can be edited to avoid the title being either spoilery or meaningless. But sometimes that requires effort and thought.

b_jonas

There's only one English translation I see online. That simplifies matters. (It's so much harder when there are two, and I have to decide which one to quote.)

DVK-on-Ahch-To

2:16 PM

@b_jonas Why don't you translate yourself? My understanding is that you're fluently bilingual.

I generally trust book translations less than my own, at least on SFF

At least as far as translation fidelity

Gallifreyan

@DVK-on-Ahch-To you have time to chat but not to answer my question here? </sarcasm>

DForck42

@DVK-on-Ahch-To from what I've heard in a couple of chat rooms, translating a work is hard

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Gallifreyan I'm just stalling for time till there's more site users so my answer can get more upvotes. j/k

@DForck42 Absolutely. Very hard. But translating a single paragraph for the purpose of SE Q&A is quite doable. (and it's not a literary translation, because the goal is fidelity, which makes it easier as well)

DForck42

@DVK-on-Ahch-To ahh

Gallifreyan

@DVK-on-Ahch-To <*Mithrandir mode on*>

DForck42

2:24 PM

all the suggested edits!!!

b_jonas

@DVK-on-Ahch-To I generally don't try to make my own translations of literature I respect, because I think they'd be disappointing and not worthy of the original work. And in this specific case, I don't understand the French enough, especially not Jules Verne's French. And there's no need, for he's famous enough that most of his works do have English translations.

Thanks for the praise though.

And as for this question, there's not much to translate anyway. All the chapter says is that Michel spoke a few words to Marfa in a low voice, which she might or might not have heard.

Gallifreyan

@DForck42 you're welcome

DForck42

@Gallifreyan :-D

b_jonas

@DVK-on-Ahch-To But I don't trust English translations either, especially not old ones, which are the ones you usually find on the internet.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@b_jonas Ah, I didn't catch that it was Verne, sorry. However, my original concern still stands - some Verne translations are rather... um.... not quite fully in line with the original text (not Verne specific, I saw the same issues with for example Alexandre Dumas).

b_jonas

2:33 PM

Luckily I don't read them, so it doesn't matter.

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Yes, I know, that's why I should rewrite that question of mine that should ask about good editions of Michel Strogof...

The old translations don't have quality because they didn't know how to translate; the new translations suck because they wanted to sell instead of produce a good translation.

DVK-on-Ahch-To

Partly it's simply because there are different imperatives acting on a translator when they're producing a sellable work of literature - the full fidelity takes backseat to readability and audience preferences ahem Sorcerer's Stone ahem

b_jonas

@DVK-on-Ahch-To Is there really evidence that anyone preferred that title? The translation that is, not the covers.

(That doesn't apply to Verne. There, there is a valid audience who want the horrible compressed translations: schoolchildren who are required to read the book and write a test of it, and want to read as little as possible.)

DForck42

@Riker for your id question, I'm vtcing because if it were on movies it doesn't have enough info to stay open

Riker

"if it were on movies"

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@b_jonas I'm not aware of anyone who preferred American version at all. But I don't know all that many people :)

Riker

2:40 PM

@DForck42 that's obviously different because it was sufficient to answer the question

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Emrakul That expression seems self-contradicting. </pedant>

DForck42

@Riker yes, but my agenda is to ensure that id questions stay of high enough quality

Riker

why does buying the book make a difference?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

PSA: PROPOSAL: Should we try A-B testing? E.g. let some people do title based tagging, some people do genre based tagging, and have a large set of users volunteer to compare? Othewise, everyone seems to have a contradictory opinion.

Riker

and if you want the country then ask

don't vtc before asking, it's most likely they'll add it to the question

DForck42

2:44 PM

@Riker this site spans most of the world, telling those interested in answering the question can cut out a lot of leg work and guessing for them

Riker

then comment below with that. don't VTC without explaining what's unclear

@DForck42 but seriously how does buying/checking the book out make a difference

DForck42

@Riker you're right, I'm being a bit obtuse. I just want to make sure that id questions on here are good and don't swamp the site like the old site

Riker

I think you're VTCing before commenting, it's a lot easier to ask the person when they read it then it is to close the question and wait to reopen it

this one has enough information to identify the book in the way of plot, and english/US-ness aren't that hard to ask somebody about

DForck42

@Riker because new books usually don't hit libraries right away, so if it was check out from a library we know there's probably some wriggle room to when the person read it. if it was bought from a used book store, it could be older, could be newer. if bought from barnes and noble it's more likely a newer release. this information can help tighten the timeline for when a story was read vs when ti was published

Riker

where I am at least, books hit libraries after a month or two

that's a pretty short gap... it doesn't really make that much of a difference

DForck42

2:51 PM

@Riker and in my local library I don't think I've ever seen a book that was published within the last two years. at least in the fiction section

Riker

okay your library is weird

DForck42

@Riker no, poorer most likely

despite being a state capitol

Riker

which one?

DForck42

@Riker missouri

Riker

ah

also, somebody please go review tag edits?

b_jonas

2:59 PM

@Riker Popular books published in Hungary do hit the library. Not very popular books, or books published abroad, don't hit the library at all, because most libraries barely have enough money to maintain their existing large collection.

DForck42

@b_jonas yeah. a good example is that the Dresden files is a fairly popular series, but you can't find it in my library

but you can find random YA books that you've never heard of

b_jonas

@DForck42 Meh, libraries are large, it's easy to find random books you've never heard of.

DForck42

@b_jonas true

@Riker apparently today's my day to pick on your questions ;-)

Riker

@DForck42 uhhhhh why else do people use theremins

DForck42

@Riker shrugs I saw a video about theramin metal the other day

Riker

3:13 PM

the whole point of the instrument is to convey a sense of fear/suspense

you need more twilight zone in your life

DForck42

heh

Riker

@DForck42 you've been living under a rock. — Riker just now

DForck42

@Riker I saw. you got a sauce for the purpose of this instrument?

Riker

yes

me

I can play a theremin

DForck42

@Riker so you want to boil a whole world's worth of use of an instrument to solely your intentions when using it?

that's a bit egomaniacal

Riker

3:22 PM

I didn't say everybody uses it for that or that's its only use

b_jonas

@Riker Wow. We have find with the widest range of unusual skills on the internet, but we can't find a Stanisław Lem expert?

3

DForck42

@Riker no, but you stated that it's specifically known for such purpose, which I've never heard of

@b_jonas ?

@b_jonas lol

@b_jonas not mine

3:28 PM

@b_jonas oh, I missed the "unusual skills" part. I was confused

@Mithrandir do you just leave your review tabs open 24/7 now? :P

Mithrandir

I still haven't installed it didn't hand time

Riker

ah k

Mithrandir

*have

Riker

then you're just really fast at reviews

Riker

3:39 PM

@Mithrandir pls go review edits?

wait you're out

Mithrandir

3:52 PM

Right. I'm out. :(

Do seven sides dice exist?

Gallifreyan

@Mithrandir yes, but they're not fair

Does a D7 (Seven-Sided Die) Roll Fairly?

►

Because a heptahedron can't be regular

Mithrandir

Cool

This was not Rand al'Thor:

in Mathematics, Dec 19 '12 at 20:19, by Rand al'Thor

@OldJohn oh god, that "ping" noise nearly made me fall from my chair ;)

DForck42

@Mithrandir a way to make a fair "seven sided die" is to make a cylinder, then cut 7 even faces into it

Mithrandir

I was actually asking @SevenSidedDie :P

DForck42

@Mithrandir lol

Gallifreyan

4:08 PM

@DForck42 are you saying there is a regular seven-sided polyhedron?

DForck42

@Gallifreyan no

crystalcaste.com/mm5/…

I'm trying to find it, I saw one awhile ago

Gallifreyan

@Mithrandir @DForck42 actually, there's this

DForck42

@Gallifreyan yeah, I found that but it's not the one I was trying to find

Gallifreyan

I think it's as fair as it gets with non-classroom dice

DForck42

@Gallifreyan non-classroom?

Gallifreyan

4:11 PM

@DForck42 as in "for a 4-sided fair dice, calculate..." question asked in.... wait for it... classrooms

SevenSidedDie

@Mithrandir They do, in two styles. One looks like my avatar and (in theory) has the height of the pentagonal prism adjusted so all seven faces are about equally likely to come up. There's also a barrel-type d7 that rolls like a log with seven faces, and because it won't land on the thin pointed ends they can be ignored. (But they make it actually more like a 21-sided solid.)

DForck42

@SevenSidedDie I've been trying to find an example of the "log" one

Mithrandir

@SevenSidedDie cool. You might have given me an idea for Puzzling ;)

SevenSidedDie

@DForck42 I think they're only sold in the big “weird dice” sets that DCC inspired. I've seen barrel dice loose in a game shop once, but I haven't ever found them sold individually online.

DForck42

@SevenSidedDie yeah, I can't even find an image

SevenSidedDie

4:18 PM

@DForck42 Oh hey, here's a third style that should be fair, even: genomicgames.com/store/p/10/d7-regular-size-non-rainbow

DForck42

@SevenSidedDie oh yeah, I remember seeing those now

SevenSidedDie

@DForck42 Aha! Found 'em. They're specifically the ones made by Crystal Caste, called “crystal dice”.

DForck42

@SevenSidedDie I don't see a d7 on there (I was looking at them earlier)

SevenSidedDie

@DForck42 Oh you're right.

I could have sworn I've seen a pencil-barrel type before, but yeah, I'm not finding it.

DForck42

4:33 PM

@SevenSidedDie same

Bookworm

5:12 PM

0

Q: Meaning of the chapter structure in Calvino's Invisible Cities

Italo Calvino's book Invisible Cities is essentially a collection of descriptions of cities. What I find interesting is that the chapters follow a specific structure. There are ten categories of cities, labeled "Cities & Memory", "Cities & Desire", and so on. The book is also divided into ten c...

italo-calvino invisible-cities

HDE 226868

6:11 PM

(crickets)

Gallifreyan

tumbleweeds

Skooba

yawn

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Nope, it had three at first. They just weren't announced on meta originally, for some reason.

Gallifreyan

zzzzzzz

Himarm

@Randal'Thor flagged for ruining the moment

Riker

6:18 PM

if you seriously did that...

then I wouldn't be suprised

did SE just go down?

back up now tho

but I got the error message

b_jonas

6:49 PM

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/35121425#35121425 => question cancelled. Verne explicitly reveals the answer in the last chapter. Yes, Michel told his secret to Marfa.

Bookworm

1

Q: Did Jack's tribe view themselves as savages?

In Golding's Lord of the Flies Jack's tribe is clearly meant to be portrayed as savages. However it was never clear (to me at least) whether they considered themselves savages. Did Jack's tribe view themselves as savages?

lord-of-the-flies william-golding

Transcript for