English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

12:00 AM

Basically, I can't just hammer those.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I see. Would you object to me flagging it to put it on the queue to see what the close voters think then?

tchrist

It would be much better as a meta post than a flag.

Tonepoet

I see.

tchrist

I mean, do as thou wilt, but that's my perspective.

Tonepoet

Hmm, well I'll discuss it elsewhere first then. We have several chatrooms for that purpose I think, and maybe I've missed something. If I don't see a strong objection, I'll put it on meta.

SmokeDetector

1:22 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Can quoted (i.e. citation) text retain its original sentiment? by Serena on english.stackexchange.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Who deleted my post? by Serena on english.stackexchange.com

tchrist

2:48 AM

Saoirse Ronan Tries To Teach Stephen An Irish Accent

►

Færd

3:26 AM

Concave and convex have different stress patterns.

Can I even ask why?

tchrist

4:04 AM

hm

unreduced diphthong/long?

Færd

Ah. Maybe.

Tonepoet

5:08 AM

@tchrist Does the t in your name stand for Trebek?

user227867

10:29 AM

The 1.6 million words in this chat can be used as the next version of the Oxford English Corpus.

user227867

@Tonepoet I think the definitions in the Oxford Dictionary of English are much better than those in the Collins English Dictionary, which is why the latter can squeeze in twice as many entries in the same size. However, the American Heritage Dictionary has the very best definitions of all dictionaries I have seen. I am very happy you recommended me this wonderful labour of love.

Matt E. Эллен

@Jasper oh gods I hope not.

Tonepoet

@Jasper That makes sense.

user227867

@Tonepoet Everything I say makes sense, but some may not realise it until the final days.

user227867

@MattE.Эллен Which god? Banana god or orange god?

Tonepoet

10:33 AM

@Jasper Well, maybe not everything, or at least not yet but we'll see when the time comes!

Matt E. Эллен

@Jasper all of them

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен What are you hoping against?

user227867

@Tonepoet By the way, still no reply from Collins or Oxford, lol. I think they know I am crazy.

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet all the bad English in this chat transcript becoming standard :D

user227867

The most recent release of Debian cannot start up properly on my laptop and that of Ubuntu cannot shutdown properly. That is why I am using Mint.

Tonepoet

10:37 AM

@MattE.Эллен Oh! That and worse are inevitable if chatrooms are taken as evidence of what constitutes standard English, and I doubt Oxford has the discretion necessary to do otherwise. =P

user227867

Also, GNOME and Unity desktops have mobile interfaces and MATE doesn't allow me to have the date format I want in the calendar or disable the list of recent documents in the panel, so I am using Cinnamon.

user227867

Therefore I declare Mint with Cinnamon to be the best distro-desktop combination of all time. Amen.

user227867

I am currently on Linux Mint Cinnamon 64-bit. Install it, all of you!

user227867

@Tonepoet Dictionaries keep boasting about how their language is authentic because of their brilliant corpus, but at the end of the day it is the definitions written that are important. Any Tommy, Dicky, or Harry can produce a corpus using some computers.

user227867

The race to win in the dictionary market has perhaps caused many lexicographers to forget the true meaning of quality.

Tonepoet

10:42 AM

@Jasper Some are better than others. I wish the Google nGrams corpus had the C.O.C.A. interface.

user227867

I suggest they first look up the meaning of 'quality' in the American Heritage Dictionary, which is really a dictionary of the highest quality, as recommended by the great @Tonepoet

Tonepoet

What can I say? I do product research before placing my faith in something.

user227867

The fact that the great @Tonepoet can receive so many downvotes on ELU demonstrates that this site is finished.

Tonepoet

Don't extol me too much now. I can't always be right, and in fact I'm often wrong...

user227867

I am going to leave some positive comments on Jacob's channel to see if others reprimand me.

RegDwigнt

10:53 AM

Honest meditation.

SmokeDetector

11:14 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: "Answers arrive in a piecemeal fashion" by myriamtouimer on english.stackexchange.com

Mitch

11:44 AM

@MattE.Эллен your gods can't help you now

Matt E. Эллен

oh...

how about your gods?

Mitch

Let me ask...

Ugh...my gods are the worst. They couldn't miracle their way out of a bag of hammers

Ok I guess that's expecting too much

You pray so hard and all I get is extra spam phone calls saying I won a free cruise

(Really)

Hmmm

Maybe I should ask them if this is a good corpus.

Matt E. Эллен

free cruises are the worst

Mitch

I don't know. Take the same cruise and get a bill for it.

But by the theory of cognitive dissonance, maybe that feels like a better cruise then

So touché

First item on task list today: 'do stuff on task list today'

Man, why didn't I put that on them before? I'd get so much more done

Matt E. Эллен

12:13 PM

lol

Mitch

1:01 PM

pun of the day:

I hope Elon Musk never gets in a scandal, because Elongate would be sure to get really drawn out.

Tweeted by OhLookBirdies on October 12, 2016 at 3:24 PM

user227867

It is raining, winding, and thundering here in Antarctica.

user227867

Ah! Don't break my circuit breakers again!

user227867

I like to tell Mr Thunder to STFU.

Tonepoet

1:22 PM

@MattE.Эллен I was going to make a meta-post but I found this post by curiousdanii suggesting that I should contact a mod. This seems relevant since I question one of the edits he made should be reverted back to my revision. The key difference is that I opted to do some more research for the questioner, which in my opinion does not actually intention of the question itself, but instead just adds resources. Would you rate my edit and revert if appropriate?

Matt E. Эллен

what edit's that?

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен My revision to this question is revision 2, which has links to the phrase finder to exhaust it as a resource. Thanks.

Matt E. Эллен

1:36 PM

@Tonepoet yeah, I think the extra links help people realise that they should keep on track and not wonder down the road of other phrases with "wood" in

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен I'm just glad to see I hadn't done anything wrong, or at least insofar as I can tell from this exchange so far. Thank you again for the assistance.

Matt E. Эллен

no probs

Mitch

2:19 PM

@Jasper You must live in a funny part there. Antarctica is considered a desert, one of the most arid places on Earth (based on amount of precipitation). But I'm sure it is very windy there given how those crazy penguins huddle together.

user227867

3:16 PM

@Tonepoet If you look up the definitions of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism on ahdictionary.com and en.oxforddictionaries.com, you will see the AHD has definitions that are vastly superior to those of the ODE. I am extremely impressed by their lexicographers now.

user227867

@Mitch A desert? I prefer desserts. I hope one day, I get the desserts I deserve, like...

user227867

I really hope YouTube rolls out its experimental interface soon. One only gets to use it for a few seconds if lucky on some occasions, when it randomly presents itself to lucky users in the world. My feedback told them to roll it out already!

user227867

I am not sure if I can change settings to get the new interface permanently now. If anyone knows, please PING me!

user227867

For those who don't know what I am talking about, you obviously have not been lucky enough to get to try it.

Færd

3:32 PM

Can look to be used to mean look at? I believe some people use it like that, although this sense is not listed in dictionaries.

Some examples of it I've heard from native speakers: look to corpora, look to a dictionary, look to the clock on the wall.

terdon

Aren't you thinking of see?

Look to X does exist but it doesn't mean the same thing as look at X

More like "look to your left" or "look to your own problems before trying to fix mine" or similar constructs.

Matt E. Эллен

look to your father for advice
vs
look at your father for advice

Færd

@terdon Yeah, those I understand: oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/…

@MattE.Эллен That's interesting. Does it mean seek then?

terdon

I can't think of any case where I'd use look alone when meaning look at.

To look to something is a different thing as @MattE.Эллен's better examples show.

Mitch

@Jasper links please

Færd

3:41 PM

@terdon So you can't look to the clock on the wall to see what time it is, right?

terdon

Not really. You sort of could maybe get away with it if you're being literary (say look to the clock to learn the time) but it isn't natural and not something you'd ever hear in conversation.

Færd

Okay. Thanks.

terdon

Kinda like look to the west for help and similar constructs. In any case, it does not mean look at the clock. It is closer to "ask the clock" or "turn to the clock for help".

Mitch

@Jasper You'd prefer to just get your just desert in a just desert

Matt E. Эллен

@Færd the first one means "ask your father" the second one means "your father looks good" or, if sarcastic, "your father looks dumb"

Færd

3:44 PM

I guess it's the same as look toward.

Thanks.

Mitch

'look at X' means more 'here's an object X that you should have your eyes pointed at'.
'look to X' means more 'turn towards X in order to consider it, literally or figuratively depending on context'

I can't think of a dictionary that would explicate this difference.

terdon

@Færd Not really. It's what Mitch said.

Mitch

All dictionaries suck. But some suck a little less than others.

terdon

@Mitch Yeah, it's hard to put into words isn't it?

Maybe worth asking on English Language Learners: How can I explain the difference between look to and look at?

Færd

I think you should spell out the names of the dictionaries you link to, and make sure you are looking to the dictionary you name. Are you really looking to the Oxford English Dictionary? — GoDucks Jan 31 at 15:30

Mitch

3:47 PM

@terdon We're limited in using words to communicate the meaning of words.

Færd

@Mitch That's a nice explanation. You should publish a dictionary.

terdon

@Færd That sort of works but I think GoDucks actually meant at and not to. However, I could say that Tonepoet always looks to Webster's for guidance

Færd

Hmm. Why does it sort of works? Are you contradicting yourself?

I would have thought you'd say it didn't work.

Mitch

In like 80,000 BC translation must have been like
A: Gronk.
B: Gronk?
A: Yes, Gronk.
B: Gronk??
A: Yes, Gronk!
B: Really? Gronk?
A: What is wrong with you? Yes, I said Gronk. What do you want from me?
B: You're stepping on my toe. Get off. And stop gronking, it's rude.

@Færd 1 down. 50M more to go

terdon

@Færd Because here you might say that I am looking to the dictionary for guidance, as opposed to looking at the dictionary for an answer.

Mitch

3:52 PM

Also, I could be wrong

Færd

@terdon I guess I'm getting it now.

Thanks all.

terdon

@Færd here:

12

A: What is the difference between "look at" and "look to"?

The difference between the two phrases is that both can be used in the literal sense (to look in the specified direction), "look to" and "look up to" also have a figurative meaning. The literal meaning: Look at that, Henry's taking his first steps! Look to your left and your right befor...

Mitch

@Færd 'to' sounds a little weird there for me and I would prefer 'at'

terdon

Oh, yes, I'd also prefer at. No question. I just meant that you could make it work with to if you squint hard enough.

tchrist

Finians Rainbow,"Look To The Rainbow","How are things in Glocca Morra".

►

Mitch

3:57 PM

@terdon I'm having a hard time squinting my ears

Færd

That answer sums it up. It's basically what Mitch said.

terdon

Yep

Mitch

Holy crap. the review queue jumped from 6 to 60 in a day

terdon

@tchrist "I've a legacy waiting for ye"?

tchrist

I noticed that.

Rubisco

3:58 PM

@Mitch CV?

terdon

@tchrist That is wrong, right?

tchrist

Well.

terdon

I thought ye was like the French toi as opposed to tu (you).

tchrist

The subject–object case distinction of ye–you grew muddled because people "wanted" the ye part to work like thee and me rather than like he and she.

Mitch

@Rubisco 'CV?'?

tchrist

4:01 PM

Originally, yes: ye people is vocative/nominative and you people is oblique.

Curriculum Vitae?

@Mitch Close votes

Oh

@terdon You really have to read the full OED entries on ye and you to look at their respective histories and crossovers.

Rubisco

@Mitch So CV?

Mitch

4:02 PM

Also lots of low quality and first posts, both of which are only driven by questions/answers, rather than CVs

terdon

Damn, there's never a simple answer. . .

tchrist

It sounds "folksy" to say for ye.

Just like it sounds "folksy" to say if thee want.

Both are contrary to formal rules, but occur.

@terdon Pick two: complete, short, correct.

terdon

Ye olde shorte, corecte and complete answere?

Færd

Complete and not correct?

Mitch

4:24 PM

complete here probably means covers all positive instances, correct (correctly) leaves out negative instances

Færd

Then a complete answer is at least as long as any correct answer.

Mitch

hm..correct and short but not complete sounds hard to do

tchrist

4:51 PM

England : Anglophile :: United States : _______

Neomundophile L)

terdon

MetaEd

Yankophile.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch you've obviously never read single word request answers

Mitch

5:06 PM

succinct

... is autological. or autologous. One of those.

Abcd

A car drew ______ in frony of the gate.

Front*

I have put _______ money for my daughter's education.

Please help me with these two questions

Færd

drew to a halt
put away

There may be other acceptable answers.

Abcd

Can it be put in

Færd

@Mitch Is that down American football terminology?

Abcd

@Færd and there has to be only one word to be filled.

Drew away? And put in?

Færd

5:20 PM

@Abcd For saving money put in doesn't work, unless you put money in(to) an account.

Abcd

Okay . And the first one?

Mitch

@Færd only if they have an etymological connection. n down, m to go is a common pattern. I don't think it is connected to the (American) football term.

Færd

I don't know what single word can fill that properly.

Abcd

Away?

terdon

@Mitch I'd assume it's a few centuries older actually.

Abcd

5:22 PM

Up?

terdon

It seems like such a natural construct.

Hmm, maybe not:

> This phrase may come from sports. The reason is because the earliest writings of the phrase that I could come from the first thalf of the 20th century, and it's pretty much always used in the context of sports.

This term is applicable to different sports. For example, in baseball, the word "down" can be synonymous for "out." A batter or baserunner can be ruled as "out" by an umpire. If the team on defense gets three offensive players out, then the teams switch places. Hence, sometimes you might hear that the offensive team has two players down, and one to go.

knowyourphrase.com/phrase-meanings/Two-Down-One-To-Go.html

Mitch

etymonline.com/index.php?term=down

@terdon ... mentions neither

why doesn't etymonline one-box?

Færd

@Abcd There are many words that can go in there, but I don't know what the examiner was thinking of. Drew to a halt works nicely, but you say it has to be one word.

terdon

@Mitch We should ask for that.

Mitch

or rather, why wasn't etymonline put in the one-boxing white list?

Abcd

5:25 PM

Okay. Thank you.

Mitch

@terdon hm... how do we do that?

terdon

@Mitch Meta?

Mitch

or rather, how do we do that @KitZ.Fox?

terdon

Sigh. A car drew up in front of the gate and I have put aside money for my daughter's education.

Abcd

Can adversity be used synonymously with difficult situation

?

Mitch

5:26 PM

@terdon I hope those aren't connected

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Feature request on Meta.SE.

terdon

@Mitch Heh.

@KitZ.Fox Maybe on ELU.meta though, since it's probably only something we'd want here and perhaps on ELL

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox are there example requests there to search for? with keyword 'one-box'?

terdon

9

Q: Can we one-box imdb links in chat?

For both Sci-Fi and Movies, IMDB is a pretty heavily used resource. We also share links to different movies in chat, and it's not very apparent what those links are because they tend to look like this: imdb.com/title/tt1456635. A simple one-box would be an amazing feature to have and would bene...

Færd

@terdon I made you sigh I see.

Kit Z. Fox

5:27 PM

@terdon Well, it would still go on Meta.SE because it's for chat.

terdon

@Færd Not you.

@KitZ.Fox Ah, true. I guess if it works for one it'll work for all, perforce.

Abcd

I made him sigh

Mitch

@MetaEd nice avatar

Abcd

Bye guys i wont trouble you more

Mitch

citizen of the world

Kit Z. Fox

5:28 PM

@terdon Well, some chat rooms do have special features, but it would impact all of chat by default so you'd want to see if other sites wanted it too.

Færd

@terdon My answers were drew to a halt and put away. Yours are better. (Big surprise)

MetaEd

@Mitch October 24: United Nations Day

There's a day?

there're 365

United Nations Day is devoted to making known to people of the world the aims and achievements of the United Nations Organization. United Nations Day is part of United Nations Week, which runs from 20 to 26 October. In 1948, the United Nations General Assembly declared 24 October, the anniversary of the Charter of the United Nations, as which "shall be devoted to making known to the peoples of the world the aims and achievements of the United Nations and to gaining their support for" its work. In 1971 the United Nations General Assembly adopted a further resolution (United Nations Resolution 2782...

Huh

Mitch

5:29 PM

366 sometimes

Rubisco

Huh

Mitch

you know, science

Færd

@MetaEd Happy UN day.

It makes me think of several things, for example: washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/28/… Even if Iran was a member of that panel it would be hypocritical.

Mitch

There's a UN day, and there's a NATO day, but why isn't there a bombing the crap out of some poor country day? Because every day is children's day.

terdon

No more hypocritical than having the world's foremost nuclear power spearheading the effort of nuclear non-proliferation.

Færd

5:33 PM

True. Now you make me sigh.

terdon

Or having the same power be so adamantly against nukes in the middle east but allowing one country to have them. Not like that country has ever started a war or anything.

Rubisco

@Færd This is ridiculous

Who are they lying to?

I mean, is anybody believing any of this?

Færd

It's a big masquerade, until everything falls out.

MetaEd

"About 10 percent of electricity in the United States is fueled by enriched uranium originally produced in Russia for nuclear warheads". That was in 2013. I don't know where the percentage is this year but anything greater than 0 is a good thing.

terdon

Yes, that is a step in the right direction.

Mitch

5:55 PM

@terdon Nice

I'm making up a question for etymonline

Are there any other resources that would be good to one-box?

Mitch

6:12 PM

Also, this happens all the time:

The reality of being a programmer with a finite amount of memory! 😂 https://t.co/lRpowqsU6d

Tweeted by CodeWisdom on October 13, 2016 at 7:30 PM

2

Færd

7:31 PM

Rubisco

7:52 PM

@Færd Well, I'm not sure if it makes learning easier in the slightest

I remember an article that argued that more illustrations than text is distracting from text, not helping learning.

Færd

I have to encounter a phrase, word, etc like 10 times before I get familiar to it. This is not a bad first encounter.

Rubisco

I have to effective use something to learn it.

If I don't use it, I will never really learn it.

I dunno about others.

Færd

@Rubisco People vary.

Rubisco

There are tales (myths?) of kings having very good memories.

Like Mansoor.

The Abbasi Caliph, I mean.

Færd

Hmm. Don't remember that about him.

I have some friends who have exceptional memories.

Rubisco

7:58 PM

@Færd They say he memorized a poem when it was read out loud to him.

Færd

Yeah, there are people like that, but some of the famous one's are exaggerated I guess.

Rubisco

Obviously.

Exaggeration is an inherent part of story-telling.

Færd

And there are different types of memory, as you know.

Rubisco

Yeah yeah, photographic blah blah blah

Færd

Some people have good visual memory and they're not talented in other types.

Rubisco

8:03 PM

I was never comfortable with classifying things that aren't classifiable.

Færd

I'm not talking memory science here. Just chatting about personal experiences.

And I think it might be classifiable BTW. But mental talents are not inherent unchangeable traits, and that makes the whole thing a bit uncertain.

Rubisco

I guess we should understand mind first.

How is all this info stored?

Færd

But people do have different cognitive processes in learning and memorizing. A good teacher must be familiar with that.

@Rubisco I don't know. Neuron synapses and stuff.

Rubisco

There's a lot of fun to be had learning that stuff.

Færd

Are you talking about the neurological viewpoint only?

Rubisco

8:13 PM

Yeah.

I like the nervous system

Færd

There are a number of ways to explore this topic I believe, like how things are categorized and encoded and recalled and reconstructed in your mind.

I don't think all of that is explainable via neurology.

Or neuroscience.

Rubisco

Mhm

Færd

So, in a nutshell, how does that help you understand how the mind works?

Rubisco

Considering how hard and how far Konkur has gone, I'm not certain I'd be able to be a doctor anyway.

Færd

Among those who deal with biology one way or the other, doctors are not the most insightful about fundamental stuff, generally.

Rubisco

8:19 PM

Unless they dig in deep.

But you know how it is. Stuff with real science doesn't get you any money in Iran.

Færd

@Rubisco Yeah.

@Rubisco Well.

Rubisco

And now, Fard is about to disagree

Oh.

That was smoother than I expected

Færd

It doesn't get you real money, alright.

But in some cases you can earn money which is not earned through a constructive cycle.

Like, some teachers (a small percentage) do earn a lot, but so what?

Rubisco

1 min ago, by Færd

@Rubisco Well.

@Færd Ugh. I hate some of those teachers.

Others are just good teachers.

But some of them use every dirty trick in business to prove they're important.

Makes me sick.

Færd

And there are government jobs available for some fields I guess. I'm not aware of the details though.

Rubisco

8:25 PM

Dunno if you know of the toxic atmosphere of the biology classes, caused by the majority of teachers continuously proving themselves to the students and proving that the few known names aren't really teaching anything special.

@Færd Those are exceptional cases, and mostly for mathers.

Or computer geeks.

Færd

Nuclear physics?

And ...

Rubisco

@Færd Very few people manage to get good money out of it

Those especial people are in every field. But there's no guarantee that you will be able to get the opportunity to be one of them.

So it's not a secure future.

Færd

Yeah, no, it's not.

@Rubisco Is that specific to biology?

Rubisco

@Færd It's not as prevalent in other classes.

Physics too, a little.

Færd

Many people are just a pointing arrow toward themselves, and they're all over the place.

Rubisco

8:30 PM

But Konkur questions are my biggest per peeve.

Færd

I can't say I'm not one of them. Although I've tried not to be.

Rubisco

When a doctorate in biology doesn't mean you can answer the questions correctly, what good are the questions for?

Færd

Screw Konkur. Just pass it and get it over with.

Rubisco

user227867

8:55 PM

@Mitch I certainly know about just deserts. I was the one who posted this question on ELU 9000 years ago when ELU was a baby, mind you. It was I, LOL.

user227867

I see @MetaEd is the new United Nations Chief, LOL. Please stop suffering in this world! First thing you need to do is make sure everyone gets a free copy of the dictionary of their choice.

user227867

@Rubisco What is your favourite ice cream flavour? Mine is raisin and rum but I haven't had this for 9000 years.

user227867

@Færd With regard to stress patterns in words, that has always confounded me too, even though I am a native speaker. English often seems illogical, just like mathematics. Who would think that 1+1/2+1/3+1/4+1/5+... does not converge to a real number?

tchrist

9:23 PM

@Jasper If you keep adding something, it won't stop adding something.

MetaEd

9:57 PM

@tchrist Modulo your definition of something.

My word for the day is anus preternaturalis.

user227867

10:48 PM

@tchrist Well, at least 1+1/2+1/4+1/8+... does converge to 2. =P

user227867

Hey @ringo nice apple you have there. I am thinking of buying some Apple computers now...

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…