English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

3:43 AM

Wow! Two hatfree answers in a single day!

Matt E. Эллен

12:13 PM

@Cerberus I'm the BFG

terdon

12:28 PM

@MattE.Эллен British Fanged Guy?

Fair enough.

And yes, I have read Dahl.

Mitch

2:04 PM

Apr 19 '13 at 1:08, by Mitch

I'm Gunga Din.

Tonepoet

2:50 PM

@Mitch If I may ask you something, what is it about some people referring to a 188 year old dictionary that seems so ridiculous when most of those same people still refer to 405 year old bible? 39% of people still report reading The King James version, which is considerably more than any of the other bible translations and it uses the language of wherefore instead of why, thou instead of you and a few other oddities that don't come immediately to mind.

tchrist

3:06 PM

I just heard a Frenchman remark in English, So without any further adieu, ....

I shan’t be correcting his s/adieu/ado/.

(He's a VIF.)

MetaEd

3:23 PM

@Tonepoet Suffer.

terdon

@Tonepoet Well, to be honest, I find the idea of people referring to a 2000 year old document, in whatever translation, to be much more ridiculous than referring to a 188 year old dictionary.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet Sprinkle.

Tonepoet

@terdon That's really not quite so strange whole of civilization is built upon the records of the past. On worldbuilding the number one impediment to technological development seems to be the ability to read. Text exists for the sole purpose of remembering information that would otherwise be lost.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet Sore.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon sometimes one can judge a book by its cover

terdon

3:42 PM

@Tonepoet Records yes. Violent mythology is what I wish we'd grow out of.

Tonepoet

@MetaEd Cough, and here I was worried about the fact that I forgot to put the indefinite article before 405. Clearly, I wrote the wrong words altogether!

terdon

@Tonepoet Didn't you mean inability there?

Matt E. Эллен

once people start reading they stop doing anything else

Tonepoet

@terdon Indeed I did.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet Covering one's feet.

terdon

3:45 PM

@Tonepoet Ah, OK. It got me really curious as to how the WB people had reached that conclusion :)

Tonepoet

I make too many grammatical errors to be on an English Language website...

Abcd

4:06 PM

may someone help me with some doubts?

tchrist

Here are two.

First, you have to use "can" not "may". Second, you have to use "questions" not "doubts".

If you wish to soften the request from "can", make it "could".

> Could someone please help me with some questions?

Rubisco

And add a 'PLZ URGANT HALP' in the end.

tchrist

/kick @Rubisco

Abcd

Could someone help me with some requests ?

sorry doubts

@Rubisco dont mock !

Rubisco

Not mocking.

Abcd

4:09 PM

So what scorning/ ridiculing/ insulting

?

Rubisco

I wasn't.

That wasn't about you.

It was a general remark.

Abcd

I do not know.

tchrist

@Abcd "Doubts" doesn't mean that in English. What language are you mis-calquing from? Are you a Subcontinental or an Iberian?

Tonepoet

@tchrist "Doubts" doesn't strike me as being any worse that "joys" or "sorrows", which are certainly used in count form to describe reasons for feeling emotion.

Rubisco

Unless you have previously posted something on one of the sites titled "URGANT HALP PLZ". Then that'd be another story.

Abcd

4:11 PM

Could someone help me with some questions ?

Rubisco

Yes.

Abcd

Here in India doubts is synonymus with questions

tchrist

@Tonepoet Et anco jois m’es dols e plazer m’es dolors.

Abcd

I realised this right now

Rubisco

@Helmar After a meta rant.

tchrist

4:12 PM

@Abcd Yes, that’s not how we use that word in English. :)

Abcd

synonymous*

Rubisco

@Abcd Yes, it's an Indianism.

MetaEd

@tchrist s/English/American English/ftfy

tchrist

It's a mistranslation from a non-English language.

Abcd

@tchrist thanx a lot for correcting me

Rubisco

4:12 PM

And people take it very seriously on the internet.

tchrist

@MetaEd Nor North American nor Insular nor Antipodal.

Abcd

Could someone help me with some questions?

Rubisco

You can type "doubts" in your question title and see how quickly it attracts downvotes.

MetaEd

Go ahead and ask your question.

tchrist

@Abcd Rule Zero: Never ask to ask.

Rubisco

4:13 PM

Except on math.SE, where people even forgot a down arrow exists.

@Abcd you can ask as many questions as you want. Don't ask to ask questions, just ask questions.

Abcd

I am unable to solve some exercises on Prepositions . Little confused between some words

SHe has been going ____ the script for days (through or over??)
He was able to put ____ his ideas so well that he impressed everyone (confunsed between forth and across)
Sujata stood _____ the river and saw the ship pass by. (by or beside ??)
Do you take his word______ mine ? (over ? against / For)
The old woman looked -______ the cupboard searching for the photograph. (into / in)
I prevailed _____ him to join the gymnasium. (upon / on )
She is extremely anxious _____ an interview next week. (of/about)

These one ^^^

I need help . The words in the brackets are the ones that I am confused betwixt

tchrist

Which, the last one?

Abcd

no all of those

tchrist

Well.

Let's take these one at a time, in order then.

Abcd

okay

tchrist

4:15 PM

For the first one, you could use either of through or over.

Abcd

Great !

understood

tchrist

For the second one, I tend to think across is better than forth.

I don't feel all that strongly about it, though.

Abcd

@Rubisco what do u say about this one?

@tchrist okay across is better

terdon

Well, they mean slightly different things, too. You want across here.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Ah, just as I pictured you!

tchrist

4:17 PM

For the river, there’s no especial distinction between standing by a river and standing beside it.

Rubisco

@Abcd I think they want "across"

Abcd

okay @Rubisco :)

Cerberus

@Mitch And early.

Abcd

@tchrist which one should we go with?

by or beside?

tchrist

Standing beside might do a better job at conveying that you are standing at the riverside.

Abcd

4:19 PM

Noted.

Next one is more confusing

tchrist

It has to be over.

The other two don't work.

You take Bob's word over Sue's.

terdon

@tchrist Well for could but it would mean something else altogether. As in did you take his voice for mine

Abcd

but here it's a question

terdon

@Abcd Yes, and it is asking if you took (accepted) his word over (as more correct than) mine.

tchrist

@terdon True; it means a different thing.

Abcd

4:21 PM

@terdon do u mean it as an expression of reproach?

tchrist

No, it means "mistake".

Did you mistake his voice for mine?

Did you accept his word over mine?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus with big ears and snozcumbers?

tchrist

Snozcumbers!

Abcd

ohh what about a situation when the person expresses reproach

Matt E. Эллен

glad I don't disappoint :D

Abcd

4:21 PM

that his advice wasnt considered ?

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Mm perhaps not the latter.

terdon

@Abcd Not really. To take someone's word over someone else's is to accept that one of them is true and the other not. So, if John says he is innocent and Mary says he is guilty, if you take Mary's word over John's, you accept Mary's statement as true.

tchrist

needs to bone up on his Cumbrian

Abcd

Noted.

@tchrist next?

tchrist

Looking in a closet is different from looking into a closet.

In the first case, you are in the closet and looking for something.

Abcd

4:23 PM

how?

tchrist

In the second, you stand outside that closet and are regarding its contents from a distance.

Abcd

oh I didnt know that. Thanx

tchrist

Switch cupboard for house and it will make more sense.

Abcd

in that case we will use in

right?

tchrist

Looking in = looking inside of

Looking into = looking from outside of

Maybe.

Abcd

4:26 PM

terdon

Yeah. It gets more complicated (look into smth), but that should do for now.

Abcd

Yup

tchrist

Prevail is a verb that collocates with either of upon or on without any change in meaning.

Abcd

Next?

okay

tchrist

Upon is generally more wordy.

Abcd

4:27 PM

wordy?

terdon

@tchrist For some reason, I think I'd always use upon with prevail. Maybe because prevail itself is kinda wordy.

Abcd

what does that mean ?

tchrist

Too long. Tedious. It's hard but not impossible to find anywhere that it means anything different from on.

Abcd

okay.

tchrist

I would normally say prevail upon as well.

I’d check relevant corpora for collocation preferences here.

Abcd

4:28 PM

great. Next?

tchrist

To be anxious collocates only with about never with of.

Well, these days.

It sounds foreign.

Abcd

Never?

terdon

@tchrist I've been feeling anxious of late.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

tchrist

@Abcd Never.

terdon

@Abcd Yeah, pretty much. If you're anxious, you're anxious about or because of something. Not of something.

Abcd

4:30 PM

Thank you @tchrist . You are a helpful person.

Keep these mind

@tchrist Anxious for

Abcd

She is not aware ______ the danger. (of/about??)

tchrist

@Abcd Not to mention trustworthy, loyal, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Tonepoet

@Abcd of

Abcd

Thats you ?

Keep these mind

4:33 PM

lingohelp.me/preposition-after-adjective/…

tchrist

You can look all these up in Google Ngrams or the various corpus searches.

terdon

@Abcd by the way, you might be interested in English Language Learners, a site for people learning English. they are better at helping non-native speakers than we are, and are less likely to bog you down with the exceptions.

Abcd

The singer put the flute _____ his lips.

No its okay

terdon

@Abcd to, probably. Although, devoid of context, it might also be through.

tchrist

@Abcd to, at, between, through, by, over, beside

Again, these are most easily figured out with searches.

Abcd

4:34 PM

okay

terdon

@Abcd Um. I was trying to politely let you know that this is the wrong place for the questions you're asking.

Abcd

Haha. I didnt realize that.

U mean I should go there ?

I enjoy more here

tchrist

@Abcd Yes: go here.

Abcd

And here there are experts so I am more confident about the answer I receive

answers*

go here ?4

4 -- typo

tchrist

This is the right chat room for these.

terdon

4:37 PM

@Abcd There are "experts" on both sites. However, those on English Language Learners enjoy helping people with basic questions about the English language. Those here, less so.

Keep these mind

Is Wikipedia offline or is it just me?

Tonepoet

@Keepthesemind It's just you.

Abcd

You and @tchrist too ?

The teacher complained ____ him when she met his mother at the market.

terdon

@Keepthesemind Works fine for me.

Abcd

The waves hit ____ the shore.

Matt E. Эллен

4:40 PM

@Keepthesemind downforeveryoneorjustme.com

tchrist

distributes garlic liberally

Abcd

@terdon that site is inactive too

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен I thought about that website too but then I figure, how do you know if it actually works or not?

Abcd

therefore I need help from here

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet true! who tests the testers?

Keep these mind

4:41 PM

@MattE.Эллен Thanks! Nice site.

Abcd

The teacher complained ____ him when she met his mother at the market

Matt E. Эллен

no probs :)

@Abcd between

Abcd

how can it be between

It doesnt fit in there

Keep these mind

@Abcd He means under

Mitch

@Tonepoet I don't understand your question. Why are you asking me? Did I say something about Bible translations that was somehow relevant to Webster 1828?

terdon

4:43 PM

@Abcd Wow. Someone sure feels entitled.

Mitch

@Cerberus That's how I roll

Matt E. Эллен

@Abcd ok. what do you think it is?

Mitch

Literally

tchrist

@Mitch Quoting 1828 sources if of no practical use today.

Abcd

about

or of

Mitch

4:43 PM

I ate a lot

Abcd

against?

Mitch

comfortably round

Matt E. Эллен

mixes some holy water

@Abcd have you ever complained against someone?

Mitch

@tchrist I know. That's what I was trying to tell Tonepoet. But some how I got caught up in some Bible thing (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Keep these mind

@MattE.Эллен I have. Big bloke.

Abcd

4:45 PM

I am unable to understand > @tchrist could you help me?

terdon

@Mitch Beverly Hills, 90210?

Matt E. Эллен

@Keepthesemind :D

tchrist

@Mitch That's what Moroni said.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Tsk tsk, you haven't even just criticized my choice of dictionaries like Mitch did, you've just thrown out the whole of 19th century literature! What would Mr. Dickens and Mr. Carol think?

Keep these mind

@tchrist Is that the Italian plural of moron?

tchrist

4:47 PM

@Tonepoet Non sequitur.

@Keepthesemind No, too much LDS.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен the cobbler's kids

tchrist

@Abcd I recommend this chat room.

Abcd

thats dormant

@tchrist

Tonepoet

@tchrist Okay fine, you've specifically thrown out all books from the year 1828, but the implications remain unless you don't consider texts other than reference books "sources". =P

Mitch

@tchrist that was a nonsequitur...because I can't find the chat message it links too! Was it deleted? What did that message mean?

terdon

4:50 PM

@Abcd why do you insist like this? You've been told that this isn't the right place for what you're doing. Some people were nice enough to help you anyway and now you think that's an invitation to keep pinging and insisting? Yes, you can ask here and if anyone wants to, they can answer. We're not, as someone once said, the customer service line for the English language.

Mitch

@terdon Zoom 02134

terdon

@Mitch Zouk 123!

Keep these mind

@terdon Customer service line here. May I help you?

terdon

@Keepthesemind How do I restart my damn router?!

Abcd

okay. Your monologue at lleast permits me to post questions. @terdon . I wont disturb your conversations by pinging constantly

terdon

4:52 PM

sigh, I tried. . .

Keep these mind

Go to 1.0.0.1 and press restart. Hope this helps. Please fill out our customer satisfaction questionnaire. Thanks

Matt E. Эллен

@Abcd if you want to know about collocations, you can use corpus.byu.edu/coca

terdon

@Tonepoet nobody's throwing anything away! Tom mentioned citing sources, specifically. And yes, when it comes to something as dynamic and constantly changing as language, citing things that are centuries old is rarely useful.

That doesn't in any way impugn upon the quality of literature that is that old, or older.

Mitch

@terdon except for an historical perspective.

Abcd

@MattE.Эллен whats collocations

Keep these mind

4:54 PM

@terdon Did language change in the last minute or so?

terdon

@Mitch Yep. Hence the rarely. I was ready for you.

@Keepthesemind That's what it feels like some days :)

Mitch

@terdon haha. i can't read.

Tonepoet

@terdon If somebody wanted to propose this on one of my other answers that cited the 1828 dictionaries that'd confuse me much less. I'd still disagree but I'd be much less curious than this specific one.

Matt E. Эллен

@Abcd words that appear together. so you can ask it what prepositions appear next to "complained"

Mitch

@terdon Quit snobbing the grangette.

Abcd

4:55 PM

okay thnx

Mitch

oops misspelled. gangrette

terdon

@Mitch Argh, dammit! I was trying to figure out what you meant and had already made my way to small farm.

Keep these mind

@Mitch I never quite got why it isn't missspelled.

Matt E. Эллен

@Abcd click on POS to insert the type of Part Of Speech you're interested in

Abcd

could u send me the link again?

terdon

4:57 PM

OK. Gangrette makes even less sense than grangette.

Mitch

@Keepthesemind The guy who invented English made it with just two esses's.

And of course it was a guy. kinda douchy

Keep these mind

@Mitch Well, he made a bloody mess of his 'language'.

terdon

@Keepthesemind Perhaps to differentiate the word from my unmarried aunt, Georgina Spelled.

Mitch

@terdon my work is done

terdon

@Mitch I knew it. And I knew it even while wasting my time searching. And. Yet. I. Couldn't. Resist.

Matt E. Эллен

5:00 PM

@Abcd you can scroll back up to get it

Mitch

@terdon I think a grangette would really just be a barn.

Keep these mind

Resistance is futile.

terdon

Grange means farm, I think. That's how I'd use it, anyway, but my French is far, far from perfect.

Abcd

gentle riddance

Tonepoet

@terdon What I was proposing however, is that people still use the 1828 dictionary as a bible study reference, and that may have influenced the odd speech usage of a pastor, perhaps even if just indirectly, especially since the word "afterclap" is an unusual word choice. Most people would now prefer repercussion in my opinion.

tchrist

5:03 PM

@terdon In English, too.

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet Wrong.

terdon

@tchrist Yes, and in Spanish, but not in French. Sorry @Mitch, my bad.

I was probably thinking of granja, I guess.

Tonepoet

@Keepthesemind On which count?

tchrist

@terdon And Catalan.

Finca is more common, at least in my own experience.

What, it’s a barn in French??

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet Roddel & achterklap [contemporary Dutch]. Gossip & afterclap.

terdon

5:05 PM

@Tonepoet sure. When studying text that was written hundreds of years ago, it makes sense to use a dictionary that was also written a while ago. What we've been saying, or I have, anyway, is that it makes less sense to do so when discussing modern usage.

@tchrist yeah

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet Nothing to do with repercussion.

tchrist

@terdon Granary.

terdon

There's probably an interesting history there. Presumably, all of these come from whatever was latin for grain (grano?) but have become farms in some languages and granaries in others.

Tonepoet

@Keepthesemind That's an entirely different language...

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet No. It's the same in a lot of ways.

Tonepoet

5:10 PM

@Keepthesemind Okay, it's a mostly different language.

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet No. Hungarian is mostly different.

Mitch

@Keepthesemind Hungarian is totally different. I don't think they even use letters.

Keep these mind

@Mitch Carrots, in fact.

Tonepoet

@terdon Since you said less sense, rather than no sense, would there be exceptions in your opinion and when might those exceptions be?

Mitch

@Keepthesemind Mmm... the primary ingredient of Hasenpfeffer.

Keep these mind

5:15 PM

@Mitch feeling hungry

Hungary

terdon

@Tonepoet none if discussing modern usage, I guess

Mitch

@Tonepoet What strange people use an 1828 dictionary as a bible study reference? Unless they're studying the !808 edition of the Good News bible written in contemporary Haight-Ashbury patois.

@Keepthesemind Have some Turkey

rimshot

terdon

Just like I wouldn't cite Newton if discussing quantum mechanics. Which is not to say that Newton wasn't one of the greatest minds humanity has ever seen, only that his work is less relevant in a modern context. Some of his work, anyway

Mitch

woo hoo!

First @Jasper ism of the day!

Keep these mind

@terdon How is Newton less relevant in a modern context? You think gravity is an archaic notion?

Mitch

5:20 PM

@terdon less than no sense

@Keepthesemind gravity is so 19th century

whoa... I'm feeling a little queasy floating like this

terdon

Well, he's not very relevant if discussing quantum mechanics, as I said.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Perhaps a 19th century dictionary for a 1611 King James bible is a mismatch, however it's less of a mismatch than a 20th century dictionary and I can't really think of any very good 17th century dictionaries...

Mitch

@terdon I think he's entirely relevant given that QM is a refinement of NM...

wait... is it?

SR/GR is certainly a refinement/correction.

terdon

Um. Er. I'm a biologist?

Matt E. Эллен

QM doesn't really mix with gravity. I guess conservation of momentum is still relevant?

Mitch

5:23 PM

It's not like I know any of these things either

tchrist

@Tonepoet That fails to apply if you are using an historical dictionary like the OED.

terdon

Point being that the new often replaces the old. That's the point

Keep these mind

@terdon Of course he is. As quantum mechanics is kind of opposite to Newtonian mechanics. Any introductory book on QM will mention the difference. So, relevant.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен is there an extrapolation of QM to larger masses or conglomerates that would approximate Newtonian mechanics?

@terdon The new is overrated

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch the mechanics of superfluids... I think that breaks Newtonian mechanics

terdon

5:25 PM

Bunch o' lousy pendants, the lot of ya

Keep these mind

@terdon Ja, und?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I think there are a lot of physical theories that are incompatible with classical NM. eg staistical thermodynamics but that may be unfair, moving the goal posts

tchrist

Keep these mind

@Mitch When did moving goal posts become 'unfair'?

Matt E. Эллен

lol

terdon

5:29 PM

@tchrist dammit! Lousy autocirrext

Matt E. Эллен

Newtonian mechanics of neutron superfluid in elastic star crust

terdon

You get the idea. . .

Keep these mind

@MattE.Эллен That's interesting article. The "Noether identities" are somewhat puzzling though. Then again: "perfect vortex pinning".

Tonepoet

@tchrist Maybe, that depends upon a variety of factors, including the availablility of evidence. I wonder what the O.E.D. will look like 500 years into the future, and how one of our contemporaries might rate its assessment of our usage. Actually, on second thought, thanks to improvements in recording media, it'll probably be much more accurate as time goes on...

Keep these mind

@Tonepoet You do realise that 'recording media' also includes this chat, don't ya?

Tonepoet

5:36 PM

@Keep Yes, I do. This chat might actually have disproportionate representation, since it has a creative commons license and might be dumped onto their servers. Usage of language on a website like Hunted to Extinction 2, which was little known and has no backups, is lost to the ages for evaluative purposes.

terdon

The oed if the future will describe the usage of the future

Keep these mind

@terdon That's a big 'if'.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

terdon

I'm driving!

Tonepoet

@terdon It should also describe the usage of the past as well. As tchrist mentioned, it's a historical dictionary. They don't remove anything deemed worthy of its pages.

terdon

5:41 PM

(red light)

@Tonepoet precisely.

Matt E. Эллен

has someone made a statistical model of what English words could morph into?

3

Tonepoet

Anyway it has its purpose. I'm not sure how relevant it is to my assertion though. Afterclap is a comparatively odd word choice. Evaluating what might motivate somebody to use it seems relevant. [Redacted]

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…