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9:58 AM
Friday! ;)
10:09 AM
Friday... and some monkey moved a LUN containing a 2.5TB database without detaching it first. Thankfully a not yet production database.
10:33 AM
Hurrah! Friday
We want this?
Q: Performance impact of having gaps in Identity Column in SQL Server 2005

GregWe have a number of tables in our database with an identity column as the primary key & clustered index. Over the years records have been added and deleted from these tables and of course there are now gaps in the primary key column. Is there any impact to the performance of the clustered in...

@gbn Thoughts on first week at new job? All good so far?
@MarkStoreySmith interesting
@gbn Looks good
10:34 AM
Probably MySQL but will have SQL Server also
But not OLTP MySQL
It's about time I looked I think. The market looks pretty good at the moment
Still fun though: conceptual model to do etc
@Phil Are you UK/US/?
Seems to be plenty of demand around London. One client of mine has been struggling to recruit since early last year.
10:38 AM
I turned down 2 jobs at the tail end of last year because I didn't like the location. Not sure if I'd want to do the London thing again. I've got used to the calmness of the North ;)
@Phil whereabouts? Are you northern anyway?
I'm in Manchester at the mo
Was offered one in Stockport & one in Warrington
I'm from them parts, not worked there though, but looked on occasion-
Hello. Anyone knowledgeable about SQL Server around?
10:55 AM
@LucianU most of us :-)
How can we help you?
Ok, I'll ask my question. I've installed SQL Server 2008 and I'm trying to connect to it with the Python driver
I've enabled TCP/IP in the configuration manager and added an inbound rule in the windows firewall. However, every time I try to connect, I get the following error: paste.pocoo.org/show/540471
same or different boxes?
gbn, it's the same box, a windows 7 virtualbox instance
btw, doing 'nestat -an' doesn't show the port 1433 as active
and in the configuration manager > client protocols > TCP/IP the default port is set to 1433
and the configuration manager is telling me that both SQL Server and SQL Server Browser are running
is it a SQL Server named instance?
yes, it's called SQLEXPRESS
that's what shows up after the host name when I connect with the Management Studio
11:08 AM
It isn't port 1434 then
1433 I mean
so hostname\SQLexpress require a UDP call to port 1434 to get the port for the named instance. Port 1434 is whe SQL browser listens on
ah, I saw the UDP 1434 port opened
Ok, I'll look for a way to specify the port from SQLAlchemy
you maybe don't need it
how should I do it then?
if you do specify port, you don't need instance name
hostname\SQLexpress or hostname,1234
I'd have to check sql alcheny docs
ah, okay. I'll have a look
so the idea is that I either specify the hostname and instance name or the hostname and the port, right?
11:12 AM
and you're using JTDS?
I don't know what that is
I haven't installed it in any case
in my SQL error log, I see "Server is listening on [ 'any' <ipv4> 55743]."
this is hostname\SQLEXPRESS
where is the log located?
In SSMS, management node
hhm. Not sure what the problem is because I don't know SQLAlchemy
gbn, ok I managed to connect to the server, because I got a different error
thanks for all your help so far
11:48 AM
gbn, do you know what happens if the port used by SQL Server is in use by another program?
my current solution is to hardcode the port number in the connection string, but I don't know how feasible this is
12:06 PM
Only on a Friday would your data centre suffer a power cut... and the generator fail to start
@LucianU SQL won't start if you have forced the port
otherwise, it will change dynamically
gbn, if it's going to change dynamically, I need a way to find a way to connect without looking for the port every time
maybe I should just force it
I'd force it
12:34 PM
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells: more your line of work... stackoverflow.com/q/9033298/27535
gbn, thanks again. in any case, do you know where to find the protocol used to query SQL Server browser for the port of a certain instance?
SQLAlchemy doesn't have that and maybe it could be implemented
@LucianU It is TDS
WHich is proprietry
gbn, I'm using a different driver
which one`?
12:45 PM
and your connection string?
interestingly, the exampkle with port shows
anyway, now I have a different issue. for some reason, I don't have the SELECT permission on the database
you need to grant permissions in the database for "username"
hmm, I thought I did
from the Management Service
never mind, I did something silly
1:07 PM
"Well is a client driven call, and they don't want indexes, am not arguing with them more on this! "
I'm more and more convinced that you should argue with the client or not work for them at all
gbn, thanks again for all your help!
You're welcome.
Another "simplified" problem stackoverflow.com/q/9033760/27535
1:56 PM
@gbn Worth migrating to dba.se?
already flagged it
thought it matched the BI merge proposal scope thingies
2:13 PM
@jcolebrand: Old MySQL load balancing/cluster Q, stackoverflow.com/questions/894401/…
good fit for here but old: your opinion please?
2:53 PM
@jcolebrand; ditto this stackoverflow.com/q/105776/27535
3:11 PM
@gbn this one I like.
@gbn do we already have a dupe of this one?
it feels like something we would have a dupe on already
@jcolebrand how long do meta pro temp elections usually last?
@BenBrocka You are the second person asking me about pub-beta :p
You two should be asking on Meta.
Hmm, pub. Only 2 hours to go :)
You're the nearest mod :P
3:23 PM
@BenBrocka the answer is "as long as it takes"
That's kinda what I assumed, but we dont' have many meta people
It's not very pressing though, I was just wondering
You could always email community@stackexchange and ask them when they think they're going to do the pro-tem's. You should provide reasons for expediency when you do, and not just "wah wah why not yet"
I just noticed we kinda don't have anyone else to nominate and all our common meta users have spoken, I guess that might change as public beta people come in however
@BenBrocka: some of the game designers/artists here are interested in ux.se
any similar sites that may appeal to them that you can think of?
(.se sites)
What's wrong with UX.SE/GD.SE? game UX questions are welcome there. Game Dev.SE for development questions
3:33 PM
nowt. Sorry, I mean nothing is standard English. "nowt" is Northern Brit dialect
I've recommened ux.se already
Cog Sci is strongly related to the Human Computer Interaction side of UX so they may find it interesting if they understand/want to understand the psychological side of things
aside from that, UX and graphic design I'm not aware of other design-relevant ones
3:52 PM
Do try and funnel them to cog sci if they're interested in the area though :) we're just starting: cogsci.stackexchange.com
Q: SQL Server - Multiple running totals

user1173751I've got a base table with transactions and I need to create a table with running totals. I need them to be per account and and also have a few running totals for each account (depending on the transaction type), and inside that, some running totals per sub-account. My base table has these fiel...

This seems like it needs query voodoo magic above and beyond simple syntax yeah?
@BenBrocka already done
@jcolebrand shudder at the idea of keeping the total in a separate table. Our ERA software does that, which meant our general ledger total balance could be updated while the actual invoice changing the balance wasn't entered. Fun times.
@BenBrocka So the Q remains, does it belong here or on SO?
I think it would be a valid fit here
Sometimes the easiest way
it's a better fir for SQL Server 2012
3:57 PM
@casperone stackoverflow.com/questions/9035502/… wanna slip it here?
DBA IMO, I Already flagged it
All of a sudden we can do so much more
There are a few possible ways to do that and I would want DB expert advice on that, not programmer expert advice
@jcolebrand It's there, and I asked you guys about it in TE, thought it was a little on the NC side
@casperOne I know you did.
4:02 PM
@jcolebrand It's here now, enjoy!
So programmers (who are programmers, so that's why they go to StackOverflow) to ask their programming questions on StackOverflow (which happen to be kind of database centric) and then we move them to DBA to be answered and answer them there? Only relational database questions? Are we going to encourage them to ask them at DBA, and what would make them want to do that? Would this include table-design questions stated in problem domain language?
@CadeRoux I tend to describe it simply as "If you have a simple syntax or design problem, take it to SO or Programmers, if it's a complex problem, take it to DBA. If it's not a coding issue, but something about the specific engine in use, take it to DBA. If it's about the server OS, take it to SF, but if it's about server SPEC, take it to DBA."
That covers most of the use cases
SF already wants to push most DB oriented Q towards DBA
I would have thought DB design would be more our thing as well
simple db design does not require experts
If I asked you how to implement googledocs forms, would you need an experienced DBA to store those records in a table? (not the exact current implementation of googledocs forms which is quite complex but a single form, with direct field to column mappings)
wow cade is in here too
4:11 PM
However, let me ask you the counter: What makes a db design complex
Sweet, I love it that the rapidly proliferating computer-related StackExchanges are going to mirror the fragmented dysfunctional silos in the real world and push problems around.
@CadeRoux yeah, we complained about that a bit a long time ago
cade that may be a topic to bring up on chat.meta.se not here
we need one massive Q&A engine with complex tagging
If no one minds, I'm still going to just start all my Oracle questions on StackOverflow.
4:12 PM
the idea of multiple small silos seems to make more sense
@jcolebrand that's exactly what I was thinking. If I need to draft out an ER diagram I'd consider it complex
I have a question that may turn into a real Q for the site
@BenBrocka So do you want to answer non-ER diagram Q all day here? There's a site for that ... Programmers
but for now I need to know if anyone has any insight into SLEEP_TASK waits in SQL Server 2008 r2 enterprise
@JNK this is a good place to ask that
4:13 PM
@CadeRoux it depends on what you're asking
However, I encourage (the same as I do on chat.so) to make a Q anyways, so that it can be found by google
I will
@gbn All PL/SQL and Oracle best practices (for database development - i.e. no temp tables, what to do, etc.)
We've had some good Oracle Q's these last few days that have been migrated
4:14 PM
@jcolebrand I'm not as familiar with programmer's scope any more
afk could be read in olde englishe as ask
@JNK is there a migrate off-topic chat thread feature yet?
@CadeRoux I don't think so
chat is thankfully not heavily regulated
@jcolebrand Another pointless fork - you can ask freelancing and business questions but not salary or compensation questions and all the things they do allow could just have been tags on StackOverflow. I would have thought the success of facebook and iOS and Android tags on SO would have made it obvious that people want to go to one place no matter what they are talking about.
@CadeRoux Don't take offence to this but can I use one of your answers on SO as a reason why specialist forums might be preferable?
stackoverflow.com/questions/314824/… +57 upvotes for an old school approach to that particular problem. Migrate it over here and it would be massively downvoted and a preferable approach posted and upvoted
@MarkStoreySmith Sorry, you're not violating his point, but enforcing it.
The issue is not dilution of viewpoints, it's overwhelming numbers of questions. If the filtering of things you want to see could make things float to the top better, then it would be a different story
as it is, we can't study snowflakes in an avalanche, which is about how it feels trying to keep an eye on the frontpage of SO
I think part of the benefit of having multiple silos is limiting feedback
@MarkStoreySmith No offense - I think I have NEVER used a split function myself of any flavor.
4:47 PM
is it more helpful to know if 120 php monkeys like an answer about SQL Server, or that 10 SQL professionals do?
@CadeRoux It would probably do better here, yes, because swapping primary IDs is a kind of tricky thing to do properly
@JNK very true, and with that you probably hit on the biggest reason for sub-branching. Which may be why they didn't pursue single silo system
There's no restriction on who can vote on which questions.
I can just go upvote all the ios and cocoa answers
without having a clue
A: Why edit must be at least 6 characters?

jcolebrandSo to get an idea of the breadth of discussion already on the network for this, I suggest this search on Meta.StackExchange. Here's the more succint version http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/77962/limit-of-manual-of-6-char-on-edit-size-when-you-dont-have-full-edit-rights and more proof th...

is this clear?
@jcolebrand yeah, but just add a note that the limit only applies to low rep users. you imply it but don't state it outright
once you are "trusted" enough you can make a 1 char edit if you like
@jcolebrand His problem is that MySQL doesn't handle the update atomically. But in general, I prefer static PKs, as I assume most do.
4:51 PM
+1 for the edit
@JNK If it didn't come across clearly, I wanted it to stand out. Probably need another # at the beginning, seems a bit too large
I'm happier with that
i threw in an edit for you
we collided :p check the history
no YOU check the history
I agree. PKs should be static. I believe in a seperation of "internal" and "external" IDs
4:56 PM
@JNK I disagree with the siloing for quality approach - Easy questions over here, harder questions over here. Voting isn't perfect.
@CadeRoux precisely what is a hard question?
Can I have more rep for answering hard questions?
maybe some sort of specialized rep?
@CadeRoux - I don't think we should separate for quality necessarily
This has all been hashed out again and again on meta, and in chats on the network, and in IRC, and in emails, and in face-to-face conversations
but I do think it's more helpful to get 10 upvotes on dba.se vs on SO for certain types of questions
on SO you will get upvotes for something that looks cool, on the more specialized sites it seems to be more about content
speaking of which, shameless plug:
Q: SLEEP_TASK Wait Type in SQL Server - What does it indicate?

JNKI haven't seen the SLEEP_TASK wait type before, and today I seem to be getting a ton of them. I'm not the official DBA, just a SQL Server developer who knows some DBA stuff. We upgraded our servers last weekend to 10.52.2500.0 - R2SP1 I think. All the info I could find online indicates that SL...

@JNK this is a good question to refer to for tagging
should it additionally be tagged sql-server-2008 or sql-server-2008-r2?
or both?
should there even be an r2 tag?
5:04 PM
@jcolebrand I don't have time to follow all that. I come to SO to ask questions and give answers. When the system doesn't behave in a simple, friendly or logical manner, it is offputting. Just like the "no recipes" rule on the SE cooking site - it just puts off users who will come back less.
@CadeRoux "I don't have time to understand the decisions that were made, but I hate the system and use it daily" ... sounds like almost every user on the planet. This is why we can't have nice things (because it's hard to build good systems that "just work")
@NickChammas we actually just answered that on Database Administrators Meta didn't we? I swear we did...
@jcolebrand ah, so we're settling on leigh's answer, which means we should add the r2 tag, correct?
why was this forked in the first place BTW?
@NickChammas yes
@Phil dba.se? So that you could get real answers from real experts instead of trusting the hivemind of PHP upvoters who voted for the thing that worked for them, but was the effective same thing as replacing the firing pin in your gun while a bullet was in the chamber
@Phil More generally, why was anything forked from SO (including SF and SU)?
5:10 PM
@JNK i like @martinsmith comment. sqlpass bores me
A: Why is StackExchange split into multiple sites?

Piskvor's Semifinite MonkeysWell, the reputation is an indicator of "how much does this user participate here, on a site about x?" For example, if my reputation on SO is 10 thousand points, on MSO 400 points, on SF 2000 points, and 101 on Cooking and on Gaming alike, it gives you a meaningful view of how much I'm active: ...

there are a number of such questions on meta.so
I guess that makes sense. OTOH, it could have been achieved by having tag-based rep
Posted by Jeff Atwood on July 26th, 2009

Now that we have four sites in the Stack Overflow trilogy:

Some users disagree with the idea that there should be four sites.

Why do we need the trilogy instead of just one site? Having four sites to jump between is ridiculous! Why not one Site? Trilogy Portal: Community Colloboration

Having four sites to jump between is ridiculous! Why not one Site? Trilogy Portal: Community Colloboration

Why not one Site? Trilogy Portal: Community Colloboration

Trilogy Portal: Community Colloboration

The whole point of these sites is to form a community around specific topics. There’s nothing more toxic to a …

@Phil @CadeRoux Per Jeff: "There is no (good) community that can form around “let’s just talk about everything and tag it”."
Yeah. I do agree that SO is a beast
@jcolebrand So does it go to prove that all the talking about building systems doesn't actually build better systems?
5:13 PM
lordy, is there some law that describes every bugger asking the same shit over and over on forums. like godwins law say
@gbn I thought it was Spolsky's law or something
Atwood's law is everything that can be built in javascript, will, iirc
@gbn yes - all because someone moved a question I was in the middle of answering
nah, that's leaky abstractions
@NickChammas That's a neat explanation if ever one was needed
@jcolebrand So it's like a star chamger
@NickChammas There is no good cooking community where people aren't supposed to share recipes.
5:16 PM
@CadeRoux on the upside, you've found us here though
@NickChammas Also, no good community where the first thing someone tells you is you need to go ask that question over here.
@CadeRoux is there a better community online for techies than here?
@gbn I have no problem with questions being moved to DBA SE, but if you are going to move questions which I would not ask a DBA, but would ask an experienced database developer, then DBA needs a new name.
@CadeRoux yes. indeed. ongoing.
@CadeRoux That comes up now and again :)
5:19 PM
@CadeRoux you like "database monkeys"?
@gbn I think you and I were the only ones in favour of that, unfortunately.
I'm (still) all over it
Data Apes was one of your other suggestions no?
@gbn No, but there are better ones for cooking. And I would still not ask an algorithm or datastructure question at Programmers and I wouldn't ask a database question at DBA unless I would ask a DBA (backup, tuning, SAN, performance counters, replication, partitioning, ...)
"database great apes"
@gbn those are the code monkeys that use NoSQL "databases"?
Q: "Database Administrators" needs to die

Nick ChammasEvery few weeks another sharp poster asks: Why are you asking DBAs about source control? Why are you asking DBAs about performance? Why are you asking DBAs about database design or data warehousing? As a regular DBA.SE patron your response might be: "Because all of those topics are welcome on...

5:24 PM
@CadeRoux We can't find a single good concise name that covers what we want to do here. Advanced Database Programmers and Analysts and their Tools.
That's just too long.
I like it here. You lot are friendly
@Phil most dba's are, if you get past the billy goat gruff exterior ;-)
@jcolebrand ahem not all of us here are DBA folk! ;)
@Phil we aren't your dbas though...
@MarkStoreySmith I know, I'm a senior dev
@gbn hahahahahahahahahaha
5:28 PM
My job title is "Senior Hibernate Denouncer"
@Phil Don't knock ORMs, they keep data apes in bananas.
@MarkStoreySmith As do hypervisors and SANs.
True true.
Perhaps "SQL Simians?" or has that already been done?
Right, time for a pint or 5. Cya ;)
5:33 PM
@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells not enough BI
@jcolebrand OLAP Orangutans?
@Phil ciao
I'm gone to lunch you lot
@Phil Likewise. Cheerio chaps
5:41 PM
@gbn all yours
@CadeRoux Much to my ire, the name "Database Administrators" leads a lot of people like yourself to believe that we don't do database development, design, NoSQL, or anything that is not within the domain of a good sysadmin.
I'm primarily a database developer myself (though my title is "Database Administrator"), and we have a lot of devs, BI types, storage types, and the like who hang out here and ask and answer questions on the regular.
@Iain thanks
no trouble
@NickChammas I've tried to hire DBAs before and had people come in who didn't know SQL - I used to call them "functional" DBAs.
@CadeRoux - gbn already linked you to the meta discussion summarizing my complaints against our name, and with the pending merger of BI into our site, the name change will have to happen.
@CadeRoux Yes. Unfortunately, I hear that enough to believe it is a widespread phenomena (something @BenBrocka is skeptical of). A lot of techies have this very limited and, in my view, ugly idea of what a DBA is and does.
I'm sad to say that in some cases it may be accurate.
That's kind of DBA is not what we promote or attract here.
5:48 PM
Q: I built a SQL version of JSFiddle - is it appropriate to update the SQL tag wiki?

Jake FeaselI see that for the JavaScript tag, there is a suggestion that questioners use JSFiddle or JSBin as tools for formulating their question. I also see that currently, there is no equivalent suggestion for the SQL tag (presumably because there haven't been many equivalent options). I just built a s...

@NickChammas I will contribute there. I tend to think data, in all its forms, is so integral to all software development that it belongs integrated with StackOverflow. And frankly, the functional DBA part might belong in ServerFault (which I do think probably has a place). One might ask if the need for a data-centric site is because StackOverflow is simply too large to manage?
5:58 PM
@CadeRoux Data is integral, but it also requires a different mindset than is appropriate for the rest of software development. There is enough depth to data architecture and development to merit a specialized site, and we are aiming to be the place to go to for database development, design, and administration, as well as the BI and systems fields that are closely tied to that.
@CadeRoux It may be true that developers suffer from database-ignorance and that silo-ing sites will shield them from information they would benefit from knowing. That needs to be solved by promoting this site on SO and raising awareness of what we do here. Also, we only encourage "expert" questions here, meaning basic questions of design and querying will always be appropriate and encouraged on SO by us.
6:29 PM
@gbn (or anyone who cares) do you want this serverfault.com/questions/354324/…
@Iain yeah, if you think it is databasey enough
Anyone else?
@gbn We have a mod flag asking for it to be pushed but I wouldn't know if it was advanced enough for you guys
6:49 PM
@Iain well, that's 2 of us then who say yes. Me and whoevere
have fun with it
2 hours later…
8:44 PM
@jcolebrand just curious, why were my 2 name suggestions deleted by you on meta.dba.stackexchange.com/questions/270/… ?
1 hour later…
9:45 PM
@DTest because at the time I was trying to clean up many answers to reduce the field and get more responses.
there's a lot of them on there
10:01 PM
@jcolebrand hmm, makes sense. Just saw only mine were deleted, but I don't think i can see others' deleted posts anyway :)
question is...how many votes on an answer is it going to take to make the change happen
10:54 PM
Huh, only two of the starred messages involve "php monkey" today. Must be a slow day
@Iain didn't we have one just like that where someone wanted to use more memory to decrease cpu load?
can't find it.
@BenBrocka I don't know this is very out of my comfort zone ~ I'm a sysadmin ;)
11:20 PM
@Iain I was referring to the question not you :) there was a question about trying to use more resources to speed up queries that we had before...
Nevermind! I was thinking of this question, where the bottleneck was probably I/O not CPU
Q: How can I make my SSIS process consume more resources and run faster?

Raj MoreI have a daily ETL process in SSIS that builds my warehouse so we can provide day-over-day reports. I have two servers - one for SSIS and the other for the SQL Server Database. The SSIS server (SSIS-Server01) is an 8CPU, 32GB RAM box. The SQL Server database (DB-Server) is another8CPU, 32GB ...


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