The Nineteenth Byte

3:00 AM

99.99% use cases for ranges can be done better with for loops

what

llama@llama:~/code/rust$ grep -oR '\.\.' **/*.rs | wc -l
155

Alex A.

Um, what about ranges used for for loops?

Doorknob

I have 155 instances of the range operator in my Rust directory

and I don't even have much stuff in there

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman how do you pronounce your name?

Downgoat

@AlexA. why would you do that

Doorknob

3:01 AM

@Downgoat for x in 1..10 { ... }

I think he means that

Alex A.

@Downgoat Because you want to loop through some integers, say 1 to 10, without like six extra lines of code?

Downgoat

that is shorthand for for (x = 1; x < 10; x++) { ... }

not a range function

Doorknob

no it's not

Downgoat

@AlexA. for loop is one line?

Doorknob

@Downgoat ok where did you get this idea because it's not true in any language at all AFAIK

Downgoat

3:02 AM

@Doorknob looks an awful like a for loop to me

poi830

what if you need to do stuff with x

Alex A.

@Downgoat Okay, write a Python for loop without range where the index goes from 1 to 10.

for i in range(1, 10):
    print(i)

Downgoat

@AlexA. it is pythons fault for being so bad that for loops require an array to interate from one number to another

Doorknob

uhhhhh

> for

Alex A.

@Downgoat Look what I just wrote. It is a for loop.

Downgoat

3:04 AM

@AlexA. see update

Doorknob

range is not an array

Alex A.

They don't require an array

Yeah, in Python 3

Downgoat

but if your language supports for (a;b;c) style-loops. A range is only a shorthand

Doorknob

no, it's really not

Alex A.

Not at all

Downgoat

3:05 AM

please give one case where I could only use a range and not a for (a;b;c) loop

Doorknob

please give one case where I could use a while loop and not a for

that doesn't mean while is a "shorthand"

Downgoat

It's a shorthand, what else would it be besides a synonym for shorthand?

Doorknob

@Downgoat uh what?

Downgoat

@Doorknob for loop is pretty much shorthand / syntactic sugar for while

Doorknob

... what?

Downgoat

3:07 AM

@QPaysTaxes really?

how

Doorknob

is the exponentation operator "syntactic sugar" for repeated addition?

poi830

@Downgoat you can write everything in BF but that doesn't mean everything is shorthand for BF

Downgoat

for (a;b;c) === a; while(b) c;

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes .u'i sai

Downgoat

@Doorknob it is semantic sugar, yes

poi830

3:08 AM

didn't we establish that everyone uses english already

Doorknob

@Downgoat what does that even mean

Downgoat

@poi830 that is completely different...

Doorknob

@poi830 .i .a'o drata binxo .i mi lojbo .ui baupli .i mi pacna lo nu ro do co'e

Downgoat

v

there is no difference in semantic meaning between for(a;b;c) and a;while(b)c;

Doorknob

and ranges do not in any way, shape, or form compile to the same thing as a traditional for

Downgoat

3:10 AM

@Doorknob I thought a range was for in some languages according to what I've been told?

Doorknob

...

8 mins ago, by Doorknob

@Downgoat ok where did you get this idea because it's not true in any language at all AFAIK

Downgoat

9 mins ago, by Doorknob

@Downgoat for x in 1..10 { ... }

poi830

@Doorknob .few .a'jf asdja jlew .a jfds kfew pasod

@Doorknob i only speak real languages

@Doorknob and also spanish

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes I meant to say syntactic sugar

Nathan Merrill

isn't for always shorthand for while?

Downgoat

3:11 AM

My point is. You do not a range function when you can do for(a;b;c)

Doorknob

@poi830 .i zo'o .o'o nai fatci fa lo du la jbobau cu bangu

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill they have no semantic difference in meaning but apparently they are completely different and you are silly if you think otherwise

2 mins ago, by Doorknob

and ranges do not in any way, shape, or form compile to the same thing as a traditional for

El'endia Starman

I think something you're missing here is that Python's for iterates through whatever iterable you give it.

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes because that's what the original conversation was about

poi830

@Doorknob .i no hablo lojban...o?

El'endia Starman

3:13 AM

@Downgoat: Print out each character in a string on its own line, using a for loop.

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat I'd argue the other way. I pick while over for due to semantics, but functionally, they are nearly identical

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill that is what I was saying

El'endia Starman

for char in "string":
    print(char)

Nathan Merrill

ah ok :)

Downgoat

3 mins ago, by Downgoat

there is no difference in semantic meaning between for(a;b;c) and a;while(b)c;

quartata

3:14 AM

this is quite possibly the dumbest flamewar I have seen here ever. can we just drop it

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman JavaScript: for (i of "string") console.log(i)

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Non-ES6.

Doorknob

@quartata yeah but that's no fun :D

Downgoat

@quartata The dumbest one is Tabs v Spaces

poi830

4 spaces 4 life

Zach Gates

3:15 AM

@El'endiaStarman Pedantic note: That has a trailing newline :P

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman what is wrong with ES6? JavaScript was shit before ES6

Doorknob

'The monospaced-typewriter-font story is a COMPLETE FABRICATION! WAKE UP, SHEEPLE' 'It doesn't matter! Studies support single spaces!' 'Those results weren't statistically significant!' 'Fine, you win. I'm using double spaces right now!' 'Are not! We can all hear your stupid whitespace.'

Nathan Merrill

reminder that while loops have no place in "pure" code

El'endia Starman

@ZachGates I never said that wasn't allowed. :P

Doorknob

It should have a trailing newline. It's so annoying when programs output things without trailing newlines. :P

Zach Gates

3:16 AM

@Doorknob True

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes beautiful

Zach Gates

@QPaysTaxes Yikes

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes If I ever need anyone to write good code for me, I will be sure to hire you

Nathan Merrill

@QPaysTaxes you should make your class final

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill but the class is still a draft

Doorknob

3:17 AM

@QPaysTaxes not enough comments

Nathan Merrill

also, you forgot reverse indentation

Doorknob

:D

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill reversed indentation is better than tabs and spaces and newlines and reverse indentation!

Zach Gates

wut

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman you never answered my question, so I'll make it more specific. Where do you put the emphasis in El'endia?

El'endia Starman

3:19 AM

Oh, @Downgoat, I just remembered a way that I used ranges without doing it in a for loop: when determining whether a character was the start of an identifier (alphanumeric symbol) -

def isPossible(val):
    return ord(val[0]) in list(range(65,91))+list(range(97,123))

@NathanMerrill First syllable.

Doorknob

@NathanMerrill IPA for your usernames please. :P /dɔːrnɑːb̚/

Nathan Merrill

bah, I knew I was doing it wrong

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes not enough comments, how do I know what // does?

El'endia Starman

I originally wrote it as "Elendia", but people were saying the first E silently, so I added the apostrophe.

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes nice

@QPaysTaxes what about the regular spec?

Downgoat

3:20 AM

@QPaysTaxes it was a joke...

Nathan Merrill

ˈneɪθən ˈmɛrəl

oooh, there should be an English to IPA challenge

(and a reverse challenge)

Doorknob

I would pronounce it more like /ˈneɪθn̩ ˈmɛɹɫ̩/

Nathan Merrill

it depends on how lazy you are

Alex A.

@NathanMerrill Can I win by drinking an IPA?

Doorknob

Oh, and I think it's actually a pharyngealized "dark" l, /ɫ/

Downgoat

3:31 AM

@QPaysTaxes The Dark English Language Learners?

Doorknob

ko lifri lo xamgu nitce

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes if that means something along the lines of "good night", then: Night!

Doorknob

mine glosses to "you-imperative experience a good night"

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes dream about gold?

Okay...

Doorknob

.a'o gleki senva

quartata

3:39 AM

Avez une bonne nocturne

Doorknob

@Doorknob "[hope!] happy dream"

GamrCorps

Oh we are saying stuff in weird languages? My turn! dafuijadshfuawenvauhjahflk jsadfjkhaskljh laueshfdsaj halksjfhkjehla

Downgoat

@GamrCorps last time I checked english is not a weird langauge

Doorknob

\o

GamrCorps

o/

CRAP

Doorknob

3:41 AM

hahahaha

GamrCorps

I hate my keyboard

the stupid ?/ is sticky

Downgoat

@GamrCorps ?

Doorknob

@Downgoat cizra ga'a su'o lo prenu

Downgoat

@Doorknob this language is more obscure to me than JS is to most people

Doorknob

.ie

Downgoat

3:42 AM

IE is bad

GamrCorps

@Downgoat Its a running joke from the skype/discord chats that I never could type o/ correctly (I always typed it o?, and I did it again while writing this message)

Doorknob

@Downgoat .ie is the attitudinal for "agreement" in Lojban

Downgoat

@GamrCorps oh, yeah, I think I saw that deleted memes post

GamrCorps

lol

Nathan Merrill

I've often wondered: the Zen of python includes "Explicit over implicit", yet its not statically typed

Downgoat

3:44 AM

@NathanMerrill JavaSc— nevermind

Alex A.

@Doorknob Doorknob uses Internet Explorer confirmed?!

Doorknob

.i'e nai sai

Alex A.

@Downgoat JavaScape Navigator

Downgoat

@AlexA. wat

> there is little difference between users with high reputation and ♦ moderators

uh huh...

Doorknob

What do you disagree with in that statement?

Alex A.

3:55 AM

^

Downgoat

@Doorknob the "little difference" part... I'm not saying there's a huge difference but "little difference" is a little understatement

Doorknob

why?

Downgoat

76

A: Who are the diamond moderators, and what is their role?

What special privileges do diamond moderators have? Diamond moderators are human exception handlers. The main function of diamond moderators is to follow up on flagged posts but they also have some special abilities necessary to handle rare exceptional conditions: They have access to all the ...

All of those reasons

Doorknob

I see only 10 bullet points. Some of them are obvious (they have all the privileges of 20kers—that's the whole point of your quote), some of them are pretty trivial (convert posts to CW), and some of them are very rarely used (refund a bounty).

quartata

What are all the attitudinals in Lojban? they sound like an interesting concept

Doorknob

4:01 AM

en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lojban/Attitudinals

quartata

I should really try to learn it

Doorknob

They're one of the most fascinating parts of Lojban (to me). They're emotional indicators, and they can be attached to single words, groups of words, or entire sentences.

So I could say {.ai mi citka} -> "[intent!] I eat" to express my intent to eat something

or I could say {.ai sai mi citka}—sai is a "strong" modifier, making the emotion stronger "I'm really going to go eat"

Downgoat

This guy has seven diamonds!!

Alex A.

Who, Rory?

Doorknob

You can also further modify attitudinals under emotional categories (social, mental, emotional, physical, sexual, spiritual)—the difference between {.oi ro'o} (physical pain) and {.oi ro'i} (emotional pain)

Downgoat

4:03 AM

Yeah

Alex A.

@Doorknob {.oi ro'( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)}

Doorknob

hmmm... how would lenny be translated into Lojban

Alex A.

Lennjban

Doorknob

probably {zo'o .e'u ro'u}—"[humorously!] [suggestion!] [sexual!]" >_>

Downgoat

@AlexA. you mean: ".lenn 'jban"

Doorknob

4:07 AM

@Doorknob which can be compounded into zo'o.e'uro'u

Alex A.

@Doorknob s/compound/golf/

El'endia Starman

4:25 AM

@AlexA. Python: generators are great but not quite good enough. For instance, range(0,10)+range(20,30) fails, and you have to do list(range(0,10))+list(range(20,30)). Also, if you want to reuse a generator, you have to cast it to a list because they get exhausted. And aside from that, "string".join([1,2,3]) will fail because you have to map each item in the iterable to a string, so "string".join(map(str, [1,2,3])).

These problems will of course be non-existent in Pytek. :D

New Main Posts

0

Q: Uptown Function

Write a procedure, function, (sub)routine, subprogram, or callable unit named uptown. uptown must: Take no parameters. Output the current temperature in Harlem, NY; Hollywood, CA; and Jackson, MS to STDOUT, separated by newlines. If a given temperature is greater than 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38...

code-golf

New Main Posts

4:46 AM

I SURE DO LIKE IT WHEN MY UPSTAIRS NEIGHBORS VACUUM AT 2 AM

24

zyabin101

5:16 AM

Hello

Anonymous

I'm kinda surprised that my OEIS CnR answer hasn't been cracked yet

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman You just listed all of my least-favorite features of Python

Anonymous

Specifically the str.join(iterable_of_not_strings) thing

Anonymous

I can see why that design choice was made (explicit is better than implicit), but that aggravates me on a daily basis

Anonymous

And the worst part is, builtin classes can't have their attributes modified, so I can't write my own str.join(iterable) without having to use it like join(str, iterable) (which admittedly isn't the worst thing in the world, but being able to modify attributes of builtins would be really nice)

Sp3000

5:25 AM

@El'endiaStarman itertools.chain() if you want to save on memory

Also, tee

Downgoat

@Mego My least favorite thing about Python is Py— nevermind

Alex A.

@Sp3000 teehee

Dennis

5:41 AM

/o\

Alex A.

That's teepee

Dennis

/ಠ_ಠ\

Alex A.

That's a very pretty but disapproving woman with long hair

Sp3000

Chat minigolf: giving a string of digits 12, output the corresponding teepee line, e.g. for 12112

    / \        / \
/o\/ o \/o\/o\/ o \

phase

If I have an output like

PID TTY TIME CMD
5392 tty1 00:00:00 bash
5393 tty2 00;00:00 bash

How can I take the first number of each process and kill it? (using bash)

Alex A.

5:49 AM

@Sp3000 Probably similar to something already but IMO another nice candidate for main. ;)

@phase What does that output come from?

Sp3000

I'm pretty sure Calka's already done something like that :P

phase

@AlexA. ps -u phase | grep -i tty

Alex A.

@Sp3000 1. I think you're right, 2. lol @ "Calka", 3. with all of these chat minigolfs, you're becoming the next Calka. :P

Sp3000

You're going off a sample size of 2 on a day when I'm bored :/

Alex A.

Gotta extrapolate them samples bruv

Mama Fun Roll

5:51 AM

0

A: {Curly Numbers};

Javascript ES6, 64 bytes x=>eval(x[r='replace'](/{/g,'(')[r](/}/g,'+0)*4')[r](/;/g,'+1')) Explanation It's pretty simple: { => ( } => +0)*4 ; => +1 Example: {;};; => (+1+0)*4+1+1

Alex A.

@MamaFunRoll Yes, and?

Mama Fun Roll

Did I do something wrong?

Alex A.

Yes

Mama Fun Roll

What?

Alex A.

I don't know. But everyone's done something wrong at least once in their life.

Mama Fun Roll

5:53 AM

Did I do something wrong within the context of this question and my answer?

It seems a bit short.

phase

I don't know. But everyone's done something wrong with their answer at least once in their life.

Alex A.

@MamaFunRoll You mean you aren't sure if your answer works? I'm confused.

zyabin101

@AlexA. I thought it was a facepalm face.

Dennis

@phase kill $(ps -u phase | grep tty | cut -d\ -f 1) would work.

Mama Fun Roll

@AlexA. Yeah, pretty much. It's also that no one (I think) used that algorithm, even though it seemed so obvious.

Alex A.

5:55 AM

@Dennis Upvoted

Dennis

However, if you have a command with tty as part of its name, it will kill it as well.

Alex A.

in spirit

Anonymous

@Sp3000 Seriously, 46 bytes

Alex A.

If algorithms that match a lot are called greedy, should a command that can kill a lot of processes be called murderous?

Anonymous

@AlexA. Homicidal would be better

Anonymous

5:57 AM

Or, sticking with the sins theme, wrathful

phase

@Dennis cut isn't returning anything, except a lot of whitespace: ` `

Anonymous

(since there are also lazy algorithms)

phase

Seriously, try it online!

Alex A.

@phase You might be able to do something with killall -r

Anonymous

A process that listens on all available ports/interfaces could be called lustful

Sp3000

5:59 AM

@MamaFunRoll Are you going both ways, e.g. if the input is a decimal number rather than a curly number

Anonymous

A program that suppresses all errors/exceptions would be proud

Anonymous

A program that tries to prevent losing focus in a GUI environment would be envious

phase

:28946077

    phase@alpha ~ λ killall -r tty
    tty: no process found

Anonymous

And a process that uses a lot of memory/CPU time/disk access/network bandwidth/other resources would be a glutton

Anonymous

There, the 7 deadly sins of computing

Alex A.

6:01 AM

@phase Oh, because the process name doesn't contain TTY. Hm.

Dennis

@phase o_O What OS is this?

phase

@Dennis Kubuntu

@Dennis I think it's because the process id line starts with a space before the number.

Sherlock9

@Mego And the (unfortunately) lesser-known seven virtues?

Anonymous

@phase What about ps | grep '^\s*\d+'

Alex A.

That should match the same things

Sherlock9

6:04 AM

This article may help: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

Anonymous

That would match the PIDs, then all you need to do is kill them

Dennis

@phase Ah hell, justification. kill $(ps -u phase | grep -Po '^\s*\d+(?= tty)') should do the trick.

Not with the ^.

phase

ps -u phase | grep -Po '^\s*\d+(?= tty)' worked

Alex A.

\o/

Dennis

\o/

ninja'd

Alex A.

6:06 AM

It's okay, more than one can celebrate

Anonymous

/o\

Anonymous

Oops it seems I'm upside-down

Alex A.

Celebration is for Kool and the Gang. This isn't a Highlander situation.

Dennis

pgrep should work for this, but I can't seem to convince -t to accept a wildcard...

phase

killing them didn't work...

wait nvm

Anonymous

6:07 AM

So I came across this earlier:

Anonymous

2

Q: I didn't pin that

I was looking through a chat transcript, and wanted to see a message's revision history. So, I clicked the arrow, and saw something interesting: I did star the message, but I did not pin it (I am neither a room owner in that room nor a moderator, so I can't pin messages there). Furthermore, th...

bug chat chat-stars chat-pins

Dennis

@phase If they have nine lives, use kill -9.

Anonymous

Alex A.

@Mego Wonderful. Now everyone on the Stack Exchange network already knows what kind of weird things the feeds bots in here say.

Dennis

Um, Martin already took care of that.

Alex A.

6:15 AM

>_>

Anonymous

> what kind of weird things the feed bots in here are forced to say

Dennis

25

Q: Regular users can indirectly delete feed bot messages

Once more, The Nineteenth Byte has uncovered an exceptionally obscure chat bug. We noticed that, apparently, a regular user managed to delete one of the feed messages in our chatroom. I think that link only works for mods, so here is a screenshot: It turns out that he didn't actually delete th...

bug chat feed

Elevening the feed bot messages appears to uncover a lot of bugs...

Anonymous

> elevening

Alex A.

SE Chat: The Elevening

Anonymous

2

Dennis

6:17 AM

hahahaha

Alex A.

XD

Anonymous

Use cases for browser developer tools:
99%: editing HTML entities/text for jokes
1%: actually debugging something

Anonymous

Oh crap

Anonymous

11

Q: "You have starred and pinned this message"—no I haven't

Once more, The Nineteenth Byte has uncovered an exceptionally obscure chat bug. When I click the dropdown arrow from the transcript next to this message, I see: However, I've only starred it, and the message isn't pinned at all: I can reproduce this for any message that I've starred.

bug chat chat-stars

Dennis

Another TNB regular. Why am I not surprised...

Anonymous

6:20 AM

The real reason for this chatroom is to be QA for SE chat (and subsequently get all of our bug reports status-ignored)

Mars Ultor

@Mego brb, totally not doing anything

inspects element

Anonymous

Man, I miss CJY working at SE. He seemed to be the only one who would actually fix chat bugs :P

Sherlock9

@Dennis Elevening?

Dennis

mod abuse eleven

Mars Ultor

makes up excuse to send message

Anonymous

6:29 AM

Like we need an excuse for chatting here

Sherlock9

@Dennis I assume this refers to a list of mod abuse possibilities

@Mego Well, I'm in class right now

Dennis

Someone should really add that to the meta post...

Anonymous

> Abandon all work, ye who enter

Anonymous

> Great minds waste time alike

Dennis

@Sherlock9 mod abuse -> mod abuse!!! -> mod abuse !!11!1!! -> mod abuse !!eleven!1!! -> mod abuse eleven -> eleven

Anonymous

6:31 AM

@Sherlock9 No, it's the dial that controls the strength of the mod abuse. It goes from 1 to 11.

Mars Ultor

@Mego s/11/10

Sherlock9

@Dennis Ooh

Mars Ultor

It's just that PPCG mods don't follow the rules of numbers

Anonymous

@MarsUltor No, it goes up to 11.

Dennis

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=eleven&room=240

Sherlock9

6:32 AM

Or it's in Unary

El'endia Starman

@MarsUltor Ever heard of "turn it up to 11"?

Anonymous

I think he may be a bit too young for Spinal Tap :P

Dennis

Wow, that's less than $200 per ... uh ... that's a good deal!

El'endia Starman

@Mego I still have basically no idea who Spinal Tap is, or why they're famous, but I've known of the meme for many years.

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman It's a movie about a real parody band

El'endia Starman

6:36 AM

Ah, huh.

Anonymous

It's also the source of inspiration for the curse on the DADA position in Harry Potter

Anonymous

In the movie, bad things repeatedly happen to the band's drummers, causing them to have to get new ones frequently

El'endia Starman

Huh, TIL!

Anonymous

Up to eleven

“Up to eleven,” also phrased as “these go to eleven,” is an idiom from popular culture, coined in the movie This Is Spinal Tap, where guitarist Nigel Tufnel proudly demonstrates an amplifier whose volume knob is marked from zero to eleven, instead of the usual zero to ten. The primary implication of the reference is one in which things that are essentially the same are seen as differentiated due to the user's misunderstanding of the underlying operating principles. A secondary reference may be anything being exploited to its utmost limits, or apparently exceeding them. Similarly, the expression...

Anonymous

It's a really good movie, one of those that doesn't try hard to be funny, but is funny because of how realistic and absurd the subject matter is

Katenkyo

7:23 AM

I may watch it if it's that good

(I spent 30 secs writing good...)

Transcript for