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2:28 AM
Q: Mistake x AS y, or mistake x FOR y?

Baba Joof Don't mistake my confidence for arrogance Don't mistake my confidence as arrogance Is "for" or "as" more appropriate in the sentence?

1 hour later…
3:54 AM
I am in an arms race with Khan over trying to answer this question.
2 hours later…
5:35 AM
Off-topic: This is a cute picture of a European hamster:
7:14 AM
Q: 'Effect in' or 'Effect'?

CaroffreyI have a sentence that roughly says trends in technology have resulted in an agile infrastructure. Sentence is as below: Network infrastructure is the backbone of any enterprise and the evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Inf...

From another bounty question:
> Network infrastructure is the backbone of any enterprise and the evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.
Though it's easy to see that effect in would be just plain wrong, how should we evaluate the sentence? Is it good or terrible writing? Does it make sense?
> Vihaan is committed to creating a stigma and discrimination-free environment for PLHIV, and the DRTs are already proving to be effect tools to proactively respond to discrimination.
It could be dialectal, then.
Wait, that one is not quite the same. It's be proving to be effect NOUN to NOUN.
It's be proving to effect NOUN to NOUN in the OP's example.
1 hour later…
8:44 AM
(edit) Wait, let me rewrite that.
> [T]he DRTs are already proving to be *effect tools to proactively respond to discrimination.
> [T]he DRTs are already proving to be effective tools to proactively respond to discrimination.
> [T]he evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.
> [T]he evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to *effective an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.
Writing effect where effective is expected is some sort of error. I don't think it's dialectal.
8:48 AM
But effect is okay as a verb.
I mean, you could criticize the sentence using effect as a verb on other grounds. I'm not saying it's my favorite sentence in the world.
nods -- I noticed that (perhaps?) typo.
Yeah, it's some kind of error. A typing error? A performance error?
I don't know.
I think the sense of effect in the OP's sentence may be not I think we usually mean. And effect as a verb is not used that often already.
It sounds like something that might make sense in a legalese context crossed over to a supposed-to-be-formal piece of writing.
8:52 AM
I think it's the sort of jargon associated with folks who say agile a lot.
Well, maybe jargon isn't exactly the word I want to use.
But that way of talking, that way of writing.
I remember buying the Extreme Programming book some years back (ooh, some years back! When could it have been?) and reading it cover to cover. It was a short book, and it made a few interesting points.
8:55 AM
But I was really struck by how contentless the book was. 99% of the pages could have been removed without losing anything.
I didn't really feel any wiser after having read it.
Not long after that, Agile became a thing where I worked.
There must've been some good books on extreme programming. I haven't read many of them, and I can't say that I've read any of them through.
Pair programming is a tool you can use.
Review and testing are good things, too.
8:58 AM
(end of book)
I think agile as a methodology suffers from one thing which any methodology may suffer from.
It assumes that it works in every project.
Or maybe people just assume so.
Any type of project, any team of people. One ring that rules them all. :D
I dunno. When I was young I didn't worry about that sort of stuff. I was just making my computer do stuff :-) Then I got a little older, read a bunch of books, and decided to do everything in a really structured, scalable manner.
Then I started working, and every large project I found was a complete disaster.
Some things may not be worth to be structured or scaled. :D
I was kind of disillusioned finding out that professional programmers by and large don't know how to structure things either :-)
9:03 AM
Then eventually I started being a bit more pragmatic about it.
We can only handle whatever we can hold in our head. If our head is not enough, we usually use some tool, and then we can only handle whatever our tool can hold. :D
One virtue agile brings to the industry, I think, imho, is that it lowers the bar so that we need only average people to work in most projects.
In my experience, the bar was already pretty low :-)
I'm sure that's not true everywhere.
I don't know that either.
9:06 AM
But around here ("Silicon Valley"), a lot of companies pride themselves on hiring only the best. And those same companies hire a lot of people that aren't really very good.
Me, I know I'm not the best. :-)
I'm pretty sure you're a very fine one. :D
BTW, have you ever used or has anyone ever said this to you in real life, I'll escort you home.?
I mean, it's a very good word, but I think it's a little strange to use it in a normal conversation.
I think it sounds more natural in narratives, or maybe when formality suits the occasion.
I upvoted his answer anyway, though: ell.stackexchange.com/a/76363/3281
One of the first couple votes, iirc. Could be even the first. I can't really remember.
@DamkerngT. I don't think so.
Another BTW, Christopher Nolan is amazing!
He can write a movie script in which American characters do sound American!
(Another note: Matt Damon was a bad guy in the movie!)
9:21 AM
When we make holes in nets, they have FEWER holes!
Huh? (confused)
Oh, I get it. You meant fishing nets.
If I make holes in my shoes, my shoes get more holes in them.
Yes. Or butterfly nets.
But not intranets. :D
Hmm... I have to think about that one. It might depend on such are conceptualized.
@JimReynolds And shadows move faster than light!
9:27 AM
@snailboat Eh?!
Hmm... that's tricky!
@DamkerngT. It's like a hole in a net.
It's a secondary phenomenon we give a name to, but the hole itself doesn't exist.
Nor does a shadow.
I hadn't heard that one before, snailboat.
And I also haven't.
I just know that I didn't get a teaching job last year because I didn't give the little club's preferred answer to the question, "When do we use the present perfect?"
Speaking of which, my friend and I are still catching up on those superhero shows. The Flash featured one of the most stunningly brain-melting moments I've seen on TV a few weeks ago.
9:30 AM
Aww... The Flash hasn't come here yet.
It melts brains and you saw it. It that correct?
Yes, which is why my brain is now a puddle of goo.
Oh ... Yeeeess!!!!!
@JimReynolds I guess the club might've liked "connected to the present".
The characters on The Flash were robbing a bank or some such, and they came to a hall filled with laser tripwires.
9:31 AM
How would they get past these lasers without setting off the alarm!?
The answer is simple:
The guy took his "cold gun" and shot the lasers, which froze them.
Then he walked through the frozen lasers, shattering all of them.
Frozen laser bits fell on the ground.
9:32 AM
My jaw fell out of my head.
I had to find where it rolled off to so I could reattach it to my skull.
You are a real trip, snboat.
starting to think that those 'five-color rangers' shows are not that bad...
I multitask while we watch The Flash :-)
@DamkerngT. You know, I've hardly seen any of those. Sentai shows.
9:36 AM
I've seen them parodied more than anything!
Me either. But I know its typical theme.
We had Power Rangers on TV when I was younger.
My epiphany is recorded here: youtu.be/vclxb2EJ5JY
But that was back when I refused to watch TV.
I was smarter then. :-)
9:37 AM
But that was before you realized that the TV was watching you?
To reciprocate can be compelling.
@JimReynolds That was when your brain fell out?
Yes. I realized that I was on earth and I was in outer space, I'm being born and I am dying.
An evil organization lets a monster loose. The monster goes around doing bad things. The sentai heroes step in, and defeat the monster. The monster won't give up; it enlarges itself to be 30 meters high. The sentai call their giant robot, which will fly into the scene very quickly. The sentai climb up boarding the giant robot, and use the giant robot to defeat the monster and save the day. Some kids will then go out to the street cheering the sentai. Cut to black. THE END.
^A typical sentai episode.
@DamkerngT. That sounds right!
I actually saw an episode of the old Spider-Man show in that vein. But there was no sentai, just Spider-Man. I think the villains were pretty typical of the show, though, and he had a giant robot, too.
9:41 AM
Though maybe he puts together a group in later episodes.
sentai = (battle) squadron/group
Hah! Wait, Spider-Man had a giant robot, too?!
You guys have your epiphanies watching anime shows? :-)
Haha! Prolly!
Oh, I haven't seen that one!
Nah, it's tokusatsu :-)
LOL -- He really has a giant robot!
heh, that robot looks a lot like Optimus Prime
and this spiderman makes too many strange arm movements
and the 270(deg) camera is weird too
too many funny things in one clip for me. I'm out :-)
He keeps saying his catch line!
9:49 AM
They cut together a bunch of scenes from different episodes, I guess.
Good thing I watched without audio!
@snailboat yeah, it looks like a montage
He keeps introducing himself as 地獄からの死者・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, messenger from Hell'), but then partway through the video he changes to 地獄から来た男・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, man from Hell')
Ooh, then he changes to 鉄十字キラー・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, Iron Cross killer').
I guess the bad guys are the 鉄十字団.
@snailboat I wonder if the Iron part came in after he'd gotten a robot.
9:55 AM
If memory serves, he had a robot in the first episode!
Oh, I see! It's Iron Cross the evil organization!
That's the only episode I saw, but I remember the robot :-)
Yeah, I think so.
They probably weren't terribly faithful to the comic books :-)
I think so. I think the robot was in the show because it could be good merchandize.
9:58 AM
In the 1980s, which is when I was a tinyboat, toy companies in the U.S. were creating TV shows for the sole purpose of selling toys.
Oh, I guess Transformers was one of them.
I think so.
My Little Pony, too.
It was the golden age of marketing to impressionable children.
10:00 AM
@snailboat He looks so resolute!
And I thought Adventures on Planet Nerf derived from folktales.
@snailboat You identify yourself as a tinyboat?
Oh ... I have been waiting for @CopperKettle.
Good afternoon all!
The trial begins forthwith.
10:00 AM
@S.R.I Well, I was tiny in the 80s just after I was born. :-)
Fine. I will, henceforth, refer you as a boat, not a person :P
I didn't say I was tiny now. I am above average height, below average weight.
Good afternoon!
So probably not tiny.
@CopperKettle I accuse you of drawing a groundless conclusion!! Your affirmation beginning "Futhermore" here is not based upon any rational premise I can discern. ell.stackexchange.com/questions/76390/…
10:01 AM
@snailboat This boat is now has an above average height, with a below average weight.
Sales? Like "All pants half off"?
@JimReynolds snailboat probably does not need pants. Boats can only sail through a water body. :-)
@JimReynolds I'm not a native speaker, so I will misplace words now and then.
10:04 AM
user image
This is Janthina janthina, a naturally occurring snailboat.
Oh. Pretty!
Well, seriously, Cop ... I think the quotes are the OP's not from the encountered text.
And we can probably take opinion-molder here, simply to mean someone who can change others' opinions.
By any means. Most likely non-violent ones.
@JimReynolds Feel free to post an answer there!
@CopperKettle on that ELL page, I read "mold" as, a fungal affliction. "Mould", OTOH, is the verb. But that's just my BrE moulding speaking :-)
No. Because your answer is super-duper.
But consider removing the last affirmation.
10:06 AM
@S.R.I (0:
The OP may have seen it here: goo.gl/xQifZ8
Yes, without the quotation marks the meaning is not that minatory.
Now in Russia . . . maybe most opinion-molders use physical means of persuasion!
BTW, Janthina janthina sounds very Asian.
10:07 AM
Minatory! My goodness. I had to google it. And I'm almost out of googles.
@JimReynolds I coded that part out using < and >
@JimReynolds There's also minacious
Googles need to be bought from @DamkerngT. using bitcoins right? That's where I get mine.
He said he's the only source.
Well, it could be my humor. :-)
@DamkerngT. It's from Latin
@JimReynolds Would you like to buy the Eiffel Tower?
10:10 AM
Compare ianthine
@CopperKettle Stop using unknown words! Stick to known words. Minatory, minacious, batman! It should just be menacing, intimidating or some such :P
@snailboat Oh, ianthine sounds much more Latin!
Uh oh! I mean, um, compare violet! ;-)
@S.R.I (0: A worthy exhortation!
@CopperKettle Thank you! :-)
@snailboat this looks beautiful
10:14 AM
Chrysomallon squamiferum, common name the scaly-foot gastropod, is a species of deep-sea hydrothermal vent snail, a marine gastropod mollusc in the family Peltospiridae. According to WoRMS, "the name Chrysomallon or Crysomallon squamiferum was used in several databases and academic papers prior to 2015. However, the name was first validly published in the sense of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature by Chen et al. (2015)". == Habitat == The 'scaly-foot gastropod' is an iconic vent endemic gastropod known only from the deep-sea hydrothermal vents of Indian Ocean, around 2,400 metres...
Lives 2 kilometers below the surface!
Russian Wikipedia's article has a starred status.
Uses iron sulfides for its shell.
"The sclerites of Kairei population is strongly magnetic due to the greigite (sulfur equivalent of magnetite) content and stick to magnets."
"The United States military is currently funding research on the armor of the snail in hopes of developing insights into new military armor designs."
Some snail!
It's a chemosymbiotic holobiont creature? So, it has to come to surface once in a while for nutrition?
I dunno. I don't know what is holobiont
Oh, it means photosynthetic.
No, it means a conglomeration of a host organism and its dependents.
It turns out I started a Multitran entry on "holobiont" some time ago, but forgot its meaning.
No, it has to congregate with other organisms for its survival
> It is a chemosymbiotic holobiont hosting a thioautotrophic (i.e., sulfur-oxidising) gammaproteobacterial endosymbiont in a much enlarged oesophageal gland, and appear to rely on these for nutrition
10:20 AM
This sentence has too many terms more than allowed on any wikipedia page :P
@CopperKettle Like Elysia chlorotica!
I translated several articles on gene transfer this fall, and entered a trainload of terms into Multitran, and now have forgotten all. (0:
Elysia chlorotica, common name the eastern emerald elysia, is a small-to-medium-sized species of green sea slug, a marine opisthobranch gastropod mollusc. This sea slug superficially resembles a nudibranch, yet it does not belong to that clade of gastropods. Instead it is a member of the clade Sacoglossa, the sap-sucking sea slugs. Some members of this group use chloroplasts from the algae they eat; a phenomenon known as kleptoplasty. Elysia chlorotica is one of the "solar-powered sea slugs", utilizing solar energy via chloroplasts from its algal food. It lives in a subcellular endosymbioti...
It has a great color scheme.
@CopperKettle You forgot to do space-repetition. :P
@CopperKettle And it's green for a very good reason! :-)
10:22 AM
@DamkerngT. Yes. Spaced repetition. (0:
Ah, it's better with the d!
Yes, that's the standard way of putting it.
@snailboat because of chlorine? ^_^
@DamkerngT. Oh, that sentence alone, sounds super weird coming from a robot! :P
"Some members of this group use chloroplasts from the algae they eat; a phenomenon known as kleptoplasty. "
Klepto = to steal in Greek
The word is absent in Multitran. (0:
10:24 AM
@S.R.I Maybe it has too many tasks to handle simultaneously. ;P
@DamkerngT. No, robots are expected to be correct in their articulation, at all times!
@S.R.I This one has different settings. It even has humor. -- Knock, knock!
Yes, it was a German guy who first came up with spaced repetiiton as a way of lexicon buildup
Learning to learn is hard. I think we haven't really learned as much about learning as we think we have.
10:29 AM
Because learning about learning is double-hard.
@DamkerngT. Who's there?
Definitely not expected.
You could ask, You who?
You Lee (a Chinese name, say)
10:31 AM
Knock, knock!
Who's there?
Orange who?
Orange you glad it's time for oranges to be delivered?
Aaa. I get it. (0:
Or maybe I dont.
10:33 AM
It was supposed to be "Orange you glad I didn't say banana?"
But I didn't say banana.
And "orange you" sounds like "aren't you"
Maybe I should have gone with one of the classics. :-)
I thought "orange you" sounded like "oh, ain't you", but there's this r
@JimReynolds Yes, thanks to vowel reduction and yod coalescence they can sound similar! :-)
10:35 AM
I have one for you, snailboat.
knock knock
Who's there?
The interrupting cow.
Well, it doesn't work well by text!
You need to blurt out "Mooo" in the midst of "interrupting cow wh .... ?"
Nice try!
10:37 AM
Maybe we should go with the classics in here.
Knock, knock!
@JimReynolds (0:
Who's there?
(This is all for the sake of English language learning, I swear.)
Europe who?
10:37 AM
No, you're a poo!
Hehe (0:
bring some Irish
Hahah ... Europe up late. Go to bed!
I'm Irish-American. Does that count? :-)
10:38 AM
What time is it when an elephant sits on your fence?
@CopperKettle Time to buy a new fence?
Yes. (0:
Time to take the elephant to the doctor?
The joke has a counterpart in Russian.
What's the Russian version?
10:39 AM
"What did the elephant do when Napoleon came?"
"-- He chewed grass"
It's untranslatable, cause it relies on Russian wordplay.
Aww, I don't get it 'cause of what you said.
Hmm. Does it involve the idea that the elephant wasn't worried?
Or that he fought?
"napoleoncame" sounds like "when he came to the field"
I wonder if the elephant will get high.
pole is field in Russian, and na is the preposition to
10:40 AM
I think I know a knock-knock joke you haven't heard @snailboat.
You start it.
@DamkerngT. Poor elephant, falling victim to English puns!
@JimReynolds Knock, knock!
@snailboat :D
Who's there?
Did I get you?
10:41 AM
That one seldom fails to catch the victim.
That one whooshed right over my head :-)
Well, you can't start a knock-knock joke if the other person will make it.
@CopperKettle How do you say the whole thing?
@snailboat "Chto delal slon kogda prishol Napoleon?"
na - preposition to, Pole = field, on = he, prishol = he came
Oh! :-)
10:42 AM
@JimReynolds Knock, knock.
Who's there?
No, Who's on first.
Orange you? Broccoli, but not nece-celery. You look radishing!
10:44 AM
"who's on first?"
Poor fellow, Stephie. Probably quit after seeing all these "knock, knock" jokes!
Another Russian joke: "A and B sat on a chimney pipe. A has fallen, B has gone astray, who is left on the pipe?"
@S.R.I (0:
@CopperKettle ash?
@S.R.I No, it's I, because the Russian word for and is i
10:48 AM
It's a children-level riddle. (0:
Don't forget Second and Third!
@snailboat Haha. (0: There are similar Russian TV sketches. A student from the Caucasus has a name Avas which sounds like "and yours?" So a professor says to him: "My name is Sergey Petrovich. What is yours?" - the student replies "Avas" ("and yours?" and it goes on ad infinitum. (0:
"Archwain W.: Please make subtitles for foreigners. I love this video clip but I want to understand pefectly."
02:00 - 11:0011:00 - 22:00

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