Language Overflow

Nihilist_Frost

02:28

0

Don't mistake my confidence for arrogance Don't mistake my confidence as arrogance Is "for" or "as" more appropriate in the sentence?

prepositions

Nihilist_Frost

03:54

I am in an arms race with Khan over trying to answer this question.

Anonymous

05:35

Off-topic: This is a cute picture of a European hamster:

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

07:14

4

Q: 'Effect in' or 'Effect'?

I have a sentence that roughly says trends in technology have resulted in an agile infrastructure. Sentence is as below: Network infrastructure is the backbone of any enterprise and the evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Inf...

word-usage prepositions verb

From another bounty question:

> Network infrastructure is the backbone of any enterprise and the evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.

Though it's easy to see that effect in would be just plain wrong, how should we evaluate the sentence? Is it good or terrible writing? Does it make sense?

> Vihaan is committed to creating a stigma and discrimination-free environment for PLHIV, and the DRTs are already proving to be effect tools to proactively respond to discrimination.
https://indiahivaidsalliance.wordpress.com/2014/02/

It could be dialectal, then.

Wait, that one is not quite the same. It's be proving to be effect NOUN to NOUN.

It's be proving to effect NOUN to NOUN in the OP's example.

Anonymous

08:44

(edit) Wait, let me rewrite that.

Anonymous

> [T]he DRTs are already proving to be *effect tools to proactively respond to discrimination.

Anonymous

> [T]he DRTs are already proving to be effective tools to proactively respond to discrimination.

Anonymous

> [T]he evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to effect an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.

Anonymous

> [T]he evolving trends in automation and virtualization are proving to *effective an agile approach to the overall Infrastructure sector.

Anonymous

Writing effect where effective is expected is some sort of error. I don't think it's dialectal.

Anonymous

08:48

But effect is okay as a verb.

Anonymous

I mean, you could criticize the sentence using effect as a verb on other grounds. I'm not saying it's my favorite sentence in the world.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I noticed that (perhaps?) typo.

Anonymous

Yeah, it's some kind of error. A typing error? A performance error?

Anonymous

I don't know.

Damkerng T.

I think the sense of effect in the OP's sentence may be not I think we usually mean. And effect as a verb is not used that often already.

It sounds like something that might make sense in a legalese context crossed over to a supposed-to-be-formal piece of writing.

Anonymous

08:52

I think it's the sort of jargon associated with folks who say agile a lot.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Well, maybe jargon isn't exactly the word I want to use.

Anonymous

But that way of talking, that way of writing.

Anonymous

I remember buying the Extreme Programming book some years back (ooh, some years back! When could it have been?) and reading it cover to cover. It was a short book, and it made a few interesting points.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

08:55

But I was really struck by how contentless the book was. 99% of the pages could have been removed without losing anything.

Anonymous

I didn't really feel any wiser after having read it.

Anonymous

Not long after that, Agile became a thing where I worked.

Damkerng T.

There must've been some good books on extreme programming. I haven't read many of them, and I can't say that I've read any of them through.

Anonymous

Pair programming is a tool you can use.

Anonymous

Review and testing are good things, too.

Anonymous

08:58

(end of book)

Damkerng T.

LOL

I think agile as a methodology suffers from one thing which any methodology may suffer from.

It assumes that it works in every project.

Or maybe people just assume so.

Any type of project, any team of people. One ring that rules them all. :D

Anonymous

I dunno. When I was young I didn't worry about that sort of stuff. I was just making my computer do stuff :-) Then I got a little older, read a bunch of books, and decided to do everything in a really structured, scalable manner.

Anonymous

Then I started working, and every large project I found was a complete disaster.

Damkerng T.

Some things may not be worth to be structured or scaled. :D

Anonymous

I was kind of disillusioned finding out that professional programmers by and large don't know how to structure things either :-)

Anonymous

09:03

Then eventually I started being a bit more pragmatic about it.

Damkerng T.

We can only handle whatever we can hold in our head. If our head is not enough, we usually use some tool, and then we can only handle whatever our tool can hold. :D

One virtue agile brings to the industry, I think, imho, is that it lowers the bar so that we need only average people to work in most projects.

Anonymous

In my experience, the bar was already pretty low :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

I'm sure that's not true everywhere.

Damkerng T.

I don't know that either.

Anonymous

09:06

But around here ("Silicon Valley"), a lot of companies pride themselves on hiring only the best. And those same companies hire a lot of people that aren't really very good.

Anonymous

Me, I know I'm not the best. :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm pretty sure you're a very fine one. :D

BTW, have you ever used or has anyone ever said this to you in real life, I'll escort you home.?

I mean, it's a very good word, but I think it's a little strange to use it in a normal conversation.

I think it sounds more natural in narratives, or maybe when formality suits the occasion.

I upvoted his answer anyway, though: ell.stackexchange.com/a/76363/3281

One of the first couple votes, iirc. Could be even the first. I can't really remember.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't think so.

Damkerng T.

Another BTW, Christopher Nolan is amazing!

He can write a movie script in which American characters do sound American!

(Another note: Matt Damon was a bad guy in the movie!)

Jim Reynolds

09:21

When we make holes in nets, they have FEWER holes!

Damkerng T.

Huh? (confused)

Oh, I get it. You meant fishing nets.

Jim Reynolds

If I make holes in my shoes, my shoes get more holes in them.

Yes. Or butterfly nets.

Damkerng T.

But not intranets. :D

Jim Reynolds

Hmm... I have to think about that one. It might depend on such are conceptualized.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds And shadows move faster than light!

Damkerng T.

09:27

@snailboat Eh?!

Hmm... that's tricky!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's like a hole in a net.

Anonymous

It's a secondary phenomenon we give a name to, but the hole itself doesn't exist.

Anonymous

Nor does a shadow.

Jim Reynolds

I hadn't heard that one before, snailboat.

And I also haven't.

I just know that I didn't get a teaching job last year because I didn't give the little club's preferred answer to the question, "When do we use the present perfect?"

Anonymous

Speaking of which, my friend and I are still catching up on those superhero shows. The Flash featured one of the most stunningly brain-melting moments I've seen on TV a few weeks ago.

Damkerng T.

09:30

Aww... The Flash hasn't come here yet.

Jim Reynolds

It melts brains and you saw it. It that correct?

Anonymous

Yes, which is why my brain is now a puddle of goo.

Jim Reynolds

Oh ... Yeeeess!!!!!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I guess the club might've liked "connected to the present".

Anonymous

The characters on The Flash were robbing a bank or some such, and they came to a hall filled with laser tripwires.

Anonymous

09:31

How would they get past these lasers without setting off the alarm!?

Anonymous

The answer is simple:

Anonymous

The guy took his "cold gun" and shot the lasers, which froze them.

Anonymous

Then he walked through the frozen lasers, shattering all of them.

Anonymous

Frozen laser bits fell on the ground.

Damkerng T.

What?!

Anonymous

09:32

My jaw fell out of my head.

Anonymous

I had to find where it rolled off to so I could reattach it to my skull.

Jim Reynolds

O.O

You are a real trip, snboat.

Damkerng T.

starting to think that those 'five-color rangers' shows are not that bad...

Anonymous

I multitask while we watch The Flash :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You know, I've hardly seen any of those. Sentai shows.

Anonymous

09:36

I've seen them parodied more than anything!

Damkerng T.

Me either. But I know its typical theme.

Anonymous

We had Power Rangers on TV when I was younger.

Jim Reynolds

My epiphany is recorded here: youtu.be/vclxb2EJ5JY

Anonymous

But that was back when I refused to watch TV.

Anonymous

I was smarter then. :-)

Jim Reynolds

09:37

But that was before you realized that the TV was watching you?

To reciprocate can be compelling.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds That was when your brain fell out?

Jim Reynolds

Yes. I realized that I was on earth and I was in outer space, I'm being born and I am dying.

Damkerng T.

An evil organization lets a monster loose. The monster goes around doing bad things. The sentai heroes step in, and defeat the monster. The monster won't give up; it enlarges itself to be 30 meters high. The sentai call their giant robot, which will fly into the scene very quickly. The sentai climb up boarding the giant robot, and use the giant robot to defeat the monster and save the day. Some kids will then go out to the street cheering the sentai. Cut to black. THE END.

^A typical sentai episode.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That sounds right!

Anonymous

I actually saw an episode of the old Spider-Man show in that vein. But there was no sentai, just Spider-Man. I think the villains were pretty typical of the show, though, and he had a giant robot, too.

Anonymous

09:41

Though maybe he puts together a group in later episodes.

Anonymous

sentai = (battle) squadron/group

Damkerng T.

Hah! Wait, Spider-Man had a giant robot, too?!

Anonymous

Yeah!

S.R.I

You guys have your epiphanies watching anime shows? :-)

Damkerng T.

Haha! Prolly!

Anonymous

09:44

Very funny spider man japanese version spiderman

►

Damkerng T.

Oh, I haven't seen that one!

Anonymous

Nah, it's tokusatsu :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL -- He really has a giant robot!

S.R.I

heh, that robot looks a lot like Optimus Prime

and this spiderman makes too many strange arm movements

and the 270(deg) camera is weird too

too many funny things in one clip for me. I'm out :-)

Damkerng T.

He keeps saying his catch line!

Anonymous

09:49

They cut together a bunch of scenes from different episodes, I guess.

S.R.I

Good thing I watched without audio!

@snailboat yeah, it looks like a montage

Anonymous

He keeps introducing himself as 地獄からの死者・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, messenger from Hell'), but then partway through the video he changes to 地獄から来た男・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, man from Hell')

Anonymous

Ooh, then he changes to 鉄十字キラー・スパイダーマン (lit. 'Spider-Man, Iron Cross killer').

Anonymous

I guess the bad guys are the 鉄十字団.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I wonder if the Iron part came in after he'd gotten a robot.

Anonymous

09:55

If memory serves, he had a robot in the first episode!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see! It's Iron Cross the evil organization!

Anonymous

That's the only episode I saw, but I remember the robot :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, I think so.

Anonymous

They probably weren't terribly faithful to the comic books :-)

Damkerng T.

I think so. I think the robot was in the show because it could be good merchandize.

Anonymous

09:58

In the 1980s, which is when I was a tinyboat, toy companies in the U.S. were creating TV shows for the sole purpose of selling toys.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I guess Transformers was one of them.

Anonymous

I think so.

Anonymous

My Little Pony, too.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

It was the golden age of marketing to impressionable children.

CopperKettle

10:00

@snailboat He looks so resolute!

(0:

Jim Reynolds

And I thought Adventures on Planet Nerf derived from folktales.

S.R.I

@snailboat You identify yourself as a tinyboat?

Jim Reynolds

Oh ... I have been waiting for @CopperKettle.

CopperKettle

Good afternoon all!

Jim Reynolds

The trial begins forthwith.

Anonymous

10:00

@S.R.I Well, I was tiny in the 80s just after I was born. :-)

S.R.I

Fine. I will, henceforth, refer you as a boat, not a person :P

Anonymous

I didn't say I was tiny now. I am above average height, below average weight.

Damkerng T.

Good afternoon!

Anonymous

So probably not tiny.

Jim Reynolds

@CopperKettle I accuse you of drawing a groundless conclusion!! Your affirmation beginning "Futhermore" here is not based upon any rational premise I can discern. ell.stackexchange.com/questions/76390/…

S.R.I

10:01

@snailboat This boat is now has an above average height, with a below average weight.

Anonymous

sails

Jim Reynolds

Sales? Like "All pants half off"?

S.R.I

@JimReynolds snailboat probably does not need pants. Boats can only sail through a water body. :-)

Jim Reynolds

:D

CopperKettle

@JimReynolds I'm not a native speaker, so I will misplace words now and then.

Anonymous

10:04

2

Anonymous

This is Janthina janthina, a naturally occurring snailboat.

Jim Reynolds

Oh. Pretty!

Well, seriously, Cop ... I think the quotes are the OP's not from the encountered text.

And we can probably take opinion-molder here, simply to mean someone who can change others' opinions.

By any means. Most likely non-violent ones.

CopperKettle

@JimReynolds Feel free to post an answer there!

S.R.I

@CopperKettle on that ELL page, I read "mold" as, a fungal affliction. "Mould", OTOH, is the verb. But that's just my BrE moulding speaking :-)

Jim Reynolds

No. Because your answer is super-duper.

But consider removing the last affirmation.

CopperKettle

10:06

@S.R.I (0:

Jim Reynolds

The OP may have seen it here: goo.gl/xQifZ8

CopperKettle

Yes, without the quotation marks the meaning is not that minatory.

Jim Reynolds

Now in Russia . . . maybe most opinion-molders use physical means of persuasion!

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

BTW, Janthina janthina sounds very Asian.

Jim Reynolds

10:07

:D

Minatory! My goodness. I had to google it. And I'm almost out of googles.

CopperKettle

@JimReynolds I coded that part out using < and >

@JimReynolds There's also minacious

Jim Reynolds

Googles need to be bought from @DamkerngT. using bitcoins right? That's where I get mine.

He said he's the only source.

Damkerng T.

Well, it could be my humor. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's from Latin

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Would you like to buy the Eiffel Tower?

Anonymous

10:10

Compare ianthine

S.R.I

@CopperKettle Stop using unknown words! Stick to known words. Minatory, minacious, batman! It should just be menacing, intimidating or some such :P

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, ianthine sounds much more Latin!

Anonymous

Uh oh! I mean, um, compare violet! ;-)

CopperKettle

@S.R.I (0: A worthy exhortation!

S.R.I

@CopperKettle Thank you! :-)

@snailboat this looks beautiful

CopperKettle

10:14

Scaly-foot gastropod

Chrysomallon squamiferum, common name the scaly-foot gastropod, is a species of deep-sea hydrothermal vent snail, a marine gastropod mollusc in the family Peltospiridae. According to WoRMS, "the name Chrysomallon or Crysomallon squamiferum was used in several databases and academic papers prior to 2015. However, the name was first validly published in the sense of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature by Chen et al. (2015)". == Habitat == The 'scaly-foot gastropod' is an iconic vent endemic gastropod known only from the deep-sea hydrothermal vents of Indian Ocean, around 2,400 metres...

Lives 2 kilometers below the surface!

Russian Wikipedia's article has a starred status.

Uses iron sulfides for its shell.

"The sclerites of Kairei population is strongly magnetic due to the greigite (sulfur equivalent of magnetite) content and stick to magnets."

"The United States military is currently funding research on the armor of the snail in hopes of developing insights into new military armor designs."

Some snail!

S.R.I

It's a chemosymbiotic holobiont creature? So, it has to come to surface once in a while for nutrition?

CopperKettle

I dunno. I don't know what is holobiont

Oh, it means photosynthetic.

No, it means a conglomeration of a host organism and its dependents.

It turns out I started a Multitran entry on "holobiont" some time ago, but forgot its meaning.

S.R.I

No, it has to congregate with other organisms for its survival

CopperKettle

nods

S.R.I

> It is a chemosymbiotic holobiont hosting a thioautotrophic (i.e., sulfur-oxidising) gammaproteobacterial endosymbiont in a much enlarged oesophageal gland, and appear to rely on these for nutrition

CopperKettle

10:20

nods

S.R.I

This sentence has too many terms more than allowed on any wikipedia page :P

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Like Elysia chlorotica!

CopperKettle

I translated several articles on gene transfer this fall, and entered a trainload of terms into Multitran, and now have forgotten all. (0:

Elysia chlorotica

Elysia chlorotica, common name the eastern emerald elysia, is a small-to-medium-sized species of green sea slug, a marine opisthobranch gastropod mollusc. This sea slug superficially resembles a nudibranch, yet it does not belong to that clade of gastropods. Instead it is a member of the clade Sacoglossa, the sap-sucking sea slugs. Some members of this group use chloroplasts from the algae they eat; a phenomenon known as kleptoplasty. Elysia chlorotica is one of the "solar-powered sea slugs", utilizing solar energy via chloroplasts from its algal food. It lives in a subcellular endosymbioti...

It has a great color scheme.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle You forgot to do space-repetition. :P

Anonymous

@CopperKettle And it's green for a very good reason! :-)

CopperKettle

10:22

@DamkerngT. Yes. Spaced repetition. (0:

Damkerng T.

Ah, it's better with the d!

Anonymous

Yes, that's the standard way of putting it.

CopperKettle

@snailboat because of chlorine? ^_^

S.R.I

@DamkerngT. Oh, that sentence alone, sounds super weird coming from a robot! :P

CopperKettle

"Some members of this group use chloroplasts from the algae they eat; a phenomenon known as kleptoplasty. "

Klepto = to steal in Greek

nice

The word is absent in Multitran. (0:

Damkerng T.

10:24

@S.R.I Maybe it has too many tasks to handle simultaneously. ;P

S.R.I

@DamkerngT. No, robots are expected to be correct in their articulation, at all times!

Anonymous

researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Verkoeijen/publication/…

Damkerng T.

@S.R.I This one has different settings. It even has humor. -- Knock, knock!

CopperKettle

Yes, it was a German guy who first came up with spaced repetiiton as a way of lexicon buildup

Anonymous

Learning to learn is hard. I think we haven't really learned as much about learning as we think we have.

CopperKettle

10:29

Because learning about learning is double-hard.

S.R.I

@DamkerngT. Who's there?

Damkerng T.

You.

S.R.I

Definitely not expected.

Damkerng T.

You could ask, You who?

CopperKettle

You Lee (a Chinese name, say)

Anonymous

10:31

Knock, knock!

Damkerng T.

Who's there?

Anonymous

Orange!

Damkerng T.

Orange who?

Anonymous

Orange you glad it's time for oranges to be delivered?

CopperKettle

Aaa. I get it. (0:

Or maybe I dont.

Anonymous

10:33

It was supposed to be "Orange you glad I didn't say banana?"

Anonymous

But I didn't say banana.

Jim Reynolds

And "orange you" sounds like "aren't you"

Anonymous

Maybe I should have gone with one of the classics. :-)

CopperKettle

I thought "orange you" sounded like "oh, ain't you", but there's this r

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Yes, thanks to vowel reduction and yod coalescence they can sound similar! :-)

Jim Reynolds

10:35

O.O

I have one for you, snailboat.

knock knock

Anonymous

Who's there?

Jim Reynolds

The interrupting cow.

Mooooooooo!

Well, it doesn't work well by text!

Anonymous

Haha!

Jim Reynolds

You need to blurt out "Mooo" in the midst of "interrupting cow wh .... ?"

haha

Anonymous

Nice try!

Anonymous

10:37

Maybe we should go with the classics in here.

Anonymous

Knock, knock!

CopperKettle

@JimReynolds (0:

Who's there?

Anonymous

(This is all for the sake of English language learning, I swear.)

Anonymous

Europe!

CopperKettle

Europe who?

Anonymous

10:37

No, you're a poo!

CopperKettle

Hehe (0:

S.R.I

AAARRRRRR

bring some Irish

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

Hahah ... Europe up late. Go to bed!

Anonymous

I'm Irish-American. Does that count? :-)

CopperKettle

10:38

What time is it when an elephant sits on your fence?

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Time to buy a new fence?

CopperKettle

Yes. (0:

Jim Reynolds

Time to take the elephant to the doctor?

CopperKettle

The joke has a counterpart in Russian.

Anonymous

What's the Russian version?

CopperKettle

10:39

"What did the elephant do when Napoleon came?"

"-- He chewed grass"

It's untranslatable, cause it relies on Russian wordplay.

Anonymous

Aww, I don't get it 'cause of what you said.

Jim Reynolds

Hmm. Does it involve the idea that the elephant wasn't worried?

Or that he fought?

CopperKettle

"napoleoncame" sounds like "when he came to the field"

Damkerng T.

I wonder if the elephant will get high.

CopperKettle

pole is field in Russian, and na is the preposition to

Jim Reynolds

10:40

I think I know a knock-knock joke you haven't heard @snailboat.

You start it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Poor elephant, falling victim to English puns!

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Knock, knock!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat :D

Jim Reynolds

Who's there?

Did I get you?

Anonymous

Um.

Jim Reynolds

10:41

That one seldom fails to catch the victim.

Anonymous

That one whooshed right over my head :-)

Jim Reynolds

Well, you can't start a knock-knock joke if the other person will make it.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle How do you say the whole thing?

CopperKettle

@snailboat "Chto delal slon kogda prishol Napoleon?"

na - preposition to, Pole = field, on = he, prishol = he came

Anonymous

Oh! :-)

Anonymous

10:42

Hehe!

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Knock, knock.

CopperKettle

(0:

Jim Reynolds

Who's there?

Anonymous

No, Who's on first.

Jim Reynolds

Haha

Orange you? Broccoli, but not nece-celery. You look radishing!

CopperKettle

10:44

(0Ж

"who's on first?"

S.R.I

Poor fellow, Stephie. Probably quit after seeing all these "knock, knock" jokes!

CopperKettle

Another Russian joke: "A and B sat on a chimney pipe. A has fallen, B has gone astray, who is left on the pipe?"

@S.R.I (0:

S.R.I

@CopperKettle ash?

CopperKettle

@S.R.I No, it's I, because the Russian word for and is i

(0:

S.R.I

lol

CopperKettle

10:48

It's a children-level riddle. (0:

Anonymous

Abbott & Costello Who's On First

►

Damkerng T.

Don't forget Second and Third!

CopperKettle

@snailboat Haha. (0: There are similar Russian TV sketches. A student from the Caucasus has a name Avas which sounds like "and yours?" So a professor says to him: "My name is Sergey Petrovich. What is yours?" - the student replies "Avas" ("and yours?" and it goes on ad infinitum. (0:

"Archwain W.: Please make subtitles for foreigners. I love this video clip but I want to understand pefectly."

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