last day (18 days later) » 

8:06 PM
So it would appear that the OSI has reached out to us. Zizouz212, would you like to explain?
Yep, good
Alright, so welcome!
8:16 PM
...and other such expressions of delight. Could someone who knows explain what's been happening?
I can explain
So basically, welcome to the private beta of this site
It started about 7 days ago
@massonpj Have you followed a couple things?
Have I followed a couple of things? No sure what you're asking?
Yeah, I wasn't clear. Have you seen some of the questions on Meta, or the main site?
@massonpj We've had various discussions on our meta site about the scope of this site and what it has to do with open source, the OSI and such. Have you seen much of this?
Yes, and I just tried to provide an update with where we are right now
Yes, maybe I can give you the background.
8:19 PM
I think many of us have missed this update... could you point me to it?
Ok. I just have one other question before I start blabbering on... Have any of the Community Managers (e.g. Robert Cartaino, Tim Post) spoken with you)
Tim Post has
Hi all, I see I cannot answer the question yet (only have a reputation of 1), but the quote listed above was from me in my role as GM at the OSI and we are indeed still interested. As @trichoplax noted, when we first raised this with the Board is was not approved as we needed to formalize the relationship between the OSI and S.E. through a Memorandum of Understanding/Agreement. This would clarify how the OSI marks/name would be used, the role of the OSI in moderation, commenting and structure the relationship (e.g. "The OSI does not endorse the comments made..."). — massonpj 24 mins ago
Wondering where to start...
Happy to start where ever you like
@ArtOfCode Could you help me on this?
8:20 PM
maybe establishing all that needs to happen
awesome. For some context form our side, we're not really in contact with SE staff (are we?), we're just a separate community, so basically we have no idea what the MOU would entail, and what the status of all this is
If you're still interested that's great. I imagine SE will be OK with the OSI supporting us here, but we'll leave it to the community managers to work the details. Meantime, what are the OSI thinking our relationship will be?
OK, well...
@Martijn Anyone can get in touch with SE via email, but I don't think that many folks network-wide are close with them.
Initially we were contacted by a SE user who (I am not sure exactly what role he has) pointed us to the Area 51 site
and asked if we might want to help promote it
8:22 PM
@Zizouz212 was that you?
Actually, I think that was overactor
Let me see if I can bring him in
Righty ho
specifically have OSI board members and our community speak to legal, licensing, development issues as some sort of "authority"
That sounds about in line with what we've thought.
we thought that would be great
as it would remove some of the redundancy we have in our own infrastructure
particularly around our mail lists and FAQ
8:23 PM
We also imagined there could be some direction to this site from the OSI site
Much like you're describing now :)
I think I pointed to the ask.ubuntu as a reference model
Yeah, that's the kind of thing
so there were two sides of this for the OSI
8:24 PM
Should I bring out the area 51 post about this?
I'm not sure how A.U is run but I imagine something similar here
yes, please do Ziz
@Zizouz212 That would be useful
Q: Could this be the "Official" site for the Open Source Initiative?

massonpjProposal: Open Source The OSI (Open Source Initiative, was contacted regarding the use of the OSI logo ( as part of this site proposal. After a bit of discussion, the OSI would be interested in promoting this forum, should i...

the first was how this would fit into our existing "platform" of services
8:25 PM
The answer to that sort of lies in what your platform is currently
so that it complimented what we were doing, and honestly alleviated some of the administrative burden of us answering all the questions we get.
That's the aim of this site, so we're good there
@ArtOfCode that you can read in that post
> The OSI currently provides mailing lists and email contacts for people to ask questions related to open source issues: copyright/licensing/patents, funding models, community development & management, etc. These lists and emails require a significant investment to review and respond to by the limited number of OSI Board Directors.
hoe could we get the community to help us--you know sort of like how open source works :-)
If questions were pointed to here, then that takes the load off your staff
8:26 PM
and we too should discover new areas of interest in the community
@massonpj (you can edit chat messages by pressing up)
so that was the one site, operational ah, nice
there's a time limit though
so like I said that was the operational side, which we have agreement on with the Board, but we did not have the legal stuff (the other part) done
@ratchetfreak Really? What is it?
8:28 PM
So it seems we're thinking the same kinds of things
@HDE226868 2 minutes for non mods
So next step for you is to get the MOU with Stack Exchange?
so the outstanding item is the MOU, which our legal folks have
and especially if we can borrow some of your expertise. Our community should be self-sustaining, but some people from the OSI behind it that could answer some questions, that could really help bootstrap our community
8:28 PM
@ratchetfreak Yah, I just found info on Meta.
right, one of our hopes was that moderators would ping us when an issue was raised that we could really help with
Yeah. We'll have plenty of people to ask questions, but it would be good for the community to see some OSI staff around
in fact this is how I just found out about this
@massonpj That depends on who the mods end up being ;)
good point
8:29 PM
If we get mods here who are already mods on other SE sites, they're overworked and may not be able to
It doesn't have to be mods. On Stack Exchange, moderators are mostly janitors and arbitrators.
They are normally appointed by Stack Exchange when the community can't hold it's own election
@Gilles makes a good point there
but that was our goal. I think for many of us we would not have the bandwidth to participate as deeply as others on here and we simply want to be able to provide a direct link to the forum
most moderation is done by the community who has earned the privilege
8:30 PM
That's fine for us.
which sort of brings us to our current status. We're in private beta right now, and should go into public beta soon(tm)
We can provide answers easily enough
< 1 week.
so no matter who it was, we would recognize that the request was coming from a trusted/valuable source and respond quickly with a bit deeper of a commitment
The private beta stage lasts between 1-2 weeks, so it should be in the next week
That's a good arrangement
8:31 PM
though it should stop you from answering questions on your own ;)
@massonpj How would it be if someone (doesn't matter who) from the OSI had a chatroom here open in a browser tab in the background?
or even asking and self answering
That provides us with an easy ping method
there are no real guarantees to what happens after we enter public beta. It's not likely that there will be sudden plug pulling, but as much as we don't like to admit it, there is always a chance that it will never leave public beta, and eventually be closed as a failed proposal.
So why would they need to have the chat open? Aren't there other modes of notification?
8:33 PM
@Martijn With this community, I deem that unlikely
@Martijn It's highly unlikely that we'd be shut down
we'll work pretty hard to try to avoid that, but I don't want to bring the impression that we can provide any guarantees
@massonpj None are as convenient as chat.
yeah, but I wanted to put that out there
@massonpj only for moderators; the chat lets us (the plebs) ping someone easily
8:33 PM
@massonpj If we ping you in chat, you'll get a Stack Exchange notification if you don't read the message in 15 minutes or so - so you'd have to log into SE to get the notification
hmm, I'm not sure of the best approach as we couldn't really ensure that someone is always on.
but only if you've been in the chatroom recently
There's always email, of course, but it's not so convenient on this end
@ArtOfCode but that only appears when you have been in the room the last few days
8:34 PM
Comments are right out.
@massonpj They wouldn't necessarily have to be on all the time because notifications will persist
How common would the messages need to be, after all?
we're a Q&A site though, chat is convenient, but I'd suppose urgency for messaging would generally be low
Maybe the ping method is a technicality we don't need to decide now. Instead, how about this: what sorts of questions would we ping OSI for?
Ideally it would go to our general list (board-all@) and then you'd get the best folks looking at it and they could respond. That list is all of the Board Directors over time and several legal folks
8:36 PM
Pinging can always be decided after too, we can get input from community managers too
to be honest I am hesitant about playing mailman
In what way?
directing traffic to folks who might respond
we could also create a bot to post the relevent question to board-all@
let that be the mailman
Which way do you mean? Us pinging OSI, or OSI directing questions here?
8:37 PM
@ratchetfreak That's a good suggestion
right that way the post goes to everyone on the list and someone there will want to respond
That is a good idea actually, we have a bot that could adapt to do that
I definitely will want to send questions here (like ask.ubuntu)
@ArtOfCode You're good with bots, right?
@ArtOfCode Or even a simple script.
8:38 PM
board-all@ could work I guess. As you have probably tasted from our degree of organisation, it's all private individuals with private email addresses here, so there might be a little hesitance here and there, and a slightly elevated treshold to use email. That's not a bad thing per-se
and the reply from the people on the list?
we'll want it to get on SE
Again, technicalities I think, but someone could post it as CW - or the OSI staff could have accounts here
That's true
when from the OSI perspective we help to reduce workload, having everyone frequent the site to help out might not be the most productive course of action :)
8:39 PM
Hey @Martijn
that said, we would certainly welcome it
SE is rarely a productive course of action...
so if I understand, new questions on SE get pushed to board-all@. Then anyone on our list (former directors, lawyers, etc.) can got to SE to answer questions. The OSI would also have a link to SE (replacing our "Ask the OSI" contact information (which is really just that same mailman list) that then send folks here.
@ratchetfreak Apart from if you want answers ;)
@massonpj Sounds about right
@massonpj do contact Stack Exchange staff to get the wording right
8:40 PM
@massonpj Don't forget however, that the community will answers questions. If you would like, we can push unanswered or highly voted questions for your input
Some projects have redirected all their support to Stack Exchange in the past, and it ended up with SE questions like “your website is down”
well we want the community to answer too - sometimes (a lot of times) their answers are better!
We could also run a daily thing that picks up, say, the top 10 voted posts for that day and sends them to board-all@
In essence, communication of key questions with the OSI i think
currently we have about 30 questions per day, of varying quality. Would you like a feed of all of that?
8:42 PM
well we might want to set up a new list for us, as I expect some on board-all will get irked (grumpies)
@massonpj There will need to be a clear understanding as @Gilles says, that this site can only cover certain types of questions. Others are best covered by you.
@Martijn Ha! That's not going to last
@Martijn Do remember, that this is private beta, and it will likely petter off
true dat
5 q/day would be more likely in the coming year, once the euphoria of the first days has waned
8:42 PM
and will spike with the media (I see that on aviation.SE)
We'll drop to around 5/day early public beta, and it'll rise
albeit slowly
room topic changed to Discussion with OSI: A chat room for discussing the support of the Open Source Initiative (OSI) for (no tags)
so is there a time/timing issue
How so?
8:43 PM
I swear tho if I'm around the question count will stay the same lol @Zizouz212 @massonpj
@massonpj There shouldn't be
@massonpj nope don't think so
questions on SE aren't time-critical (or at least shouldn't be)
It's actually quite commons for questions to wait up to a few days before getting a quality answer
It's quite normal
OK, because again, there is the operational side, like we've been discussing (which I know we can sort out) but then there is the legal side (using the OSI name, logo, etc.) which is the legal side and that is a...[insert painfull expression]
8:44 PM
Well, questions usually have a correct, adequate answer in a few hours, but top answers do take longer
@massonpj I understan
Cooperation can also include some OSI members participating on SE as individuals
In fact, before we discuss the legal side, I'm just going to point out some of the community thoughts
Of their own will, of course :)
I don't want them to sound discouraging, but understand please.
8:45 PM
again, originally Tim Post and the person who contacted me wanted to brand the site to align with the OSI (like ask.ubuntu and Canonical have done)
Within the span of the last couple of days, there's been a lot of neutrality issues
@Zizouz212 what so you mean
This site has had a lot of requests to have equality with the FSF
@massonpj I don't think that's a massive worry yet; sites don't usually get a new design until their graduation a year or two down the line.
Q: How do we neutralize the site to be more accepting?

Zizouz212We've seen many issues so far on the issue of neutrality between things such as: the Open Source Initiative; the Free Software Foundation; Creative Commons and more; Don't get me wrong, the issue has sparked many meta posts (each word's a separate link). Since Area 51, there has been issue wi...

8:47 PM
@massonpj why don't we stick with the current name and such until such time that you guys feel comfortable ( legally) to change it /use osi
@HDE226868 Thank you
Q: Make the site about Open Information!

Zizouz212Note: I understand this is very long, but be sure to read and understanding everything in this post. Alright! Day 6 into the beta, and we're about to introduce a new addition to the scope! The issue of neutrality has been big since the definition phase of this site. Conflicts and arguments over...

And links therein.
@HDE226868 we have excellent relationships with FSF and CC
we would be thrilled if they wanted to participate
A lot of people actually wanted a neutral perspective within the site
the communities seem to go at it more than the organizations do :-)
8:48 PM
And I hope you can understand
Open Source would still be welcomed like it would be, but instead we would try to foster a neutral environment
Creative Commons is an OSI Affiliate Member and FSF and the OSI have worked together on several issues
Perfect then :)
Hi all
And here comes @overactor, who is the user who originally contacted you.
This could work well
8:49 PM
@massonpj Excellent.
Well if there is no interest in using OSI branding then that would reduce the legal work
@massonpj Hi
Yup ... I personally don't care
@massonpj There may be, down the line, but we don't know yet and won't know for some time.
In that case, the main objective would be to promote open information, which I'm sure would include open source
8:50 PM
or everyone can get their brand stamped on the site...
I'll read up on what has been said so far
It's not about that it's about answering questions
though the legal issues...
So when are we hunging of starting elections?
@TrevorClarke Not the time...
8:51 PM
if you look at the OSI board you'll find several folks who are involved with FSF and other orgs EFF, Software Conservancy etc.
@TrevorClarke public beta, nominations, and not yet - we'll decide that some other time
@TrevorClarke Probably a couple years.
Lol ok
So inclusivity of all aspects and organization, is essentially the bottom line
8:52 PM
@ArtOfCode I'll need to know what you all want to do regarding the legal stuff as it will affect how i/OSI move forward
Essentially, our position is this: we're here to give people quality answers to their questions about open information. We'd be very happy if the OSI, FSF, and CC, and any others, think it's worthwhile directing people here, and we'd be happy to answer the questions that result.
So, we would need some of the Community Managers here, they would be able to help foster that discussion
@massonpj Go forward on the assumption we won't use the OSI brand. If we do need to, it'll be a couple years away yet and we can start discussions then.
I agree on that
@Zizouz212 @ArtOfCode OK, has anyone talked to Tim Post?
8:53 PM
@massonpj None of us have because our relationship with the CMs is pretty distant
@massonpj I don't think so
I'm not sure if SE was looking at this as a promotional opportunity to partner
lets first see what public beta will bring in terms of content
I agree, and try and bring out the new sections of the scope then too
@TimPost massonpj's been talking with a bunch of OS.SE folks, you should take a look
8:54 PM
@massonpj I think the understanding between the OSI and SE and what they both do is something the two organisations need to sort, not us
@massonpj we're outside his habitual timezone right now
@Gilles Will he be pinged like that though?
@ArtOfCode @Zizouz212 are you both cool with me following up with Tim, or do you want to. Again, I'm not sure of everyone's roles or interests (community vs. SE)
@Zizouz212 he will because I used a special mod ping
@Zizouz212 he's a mod so yes
8:55 PM
@Gilles okay good
@massonpj Both I and Zizouz212 are just users heavily interested in developing this site further, but are not official SE people or moderators. (this site has no moderators yet)
@massonpj Let's see if he comes out here, I'm pretty sure he'd be awake by now
OK, how about I will do this: move forward as we are already, and if SE wants to use the OSI brand, then we are set, if not, no harm done
@Zizouz212 it's 5am, it's a bit early
@massonpj There should be mods [for opensource.stackexchange] in < 1 month, at the most.
8:56 PM
@massonpj That sounds fine to me.
@ArtOfCode @massonpj @ArtOfCode I am also interested in helping, I am not at home... Sorry I any be more help.
@Gilles Are there any CMs who'd be around at this time?
OK, I will (on my own as an interested bystander) keep up with things here to stay up to date while also working in OSI role to formalize things.
@Gilles Could you ping @RobertCartaino?
8:57 PM
@massonpj Sounds good.
if anyone wants to poke me feel free at
@ArtOfCode Maybe, but do we need someone urgently? If not better let Tim handle it since he knows what's been going on.
@massonpj Do you want to talk to any of the CM's now?
@Gilles if yes, then yes
@Gilles I see the reasoning. Tim has the background on this. But for the other things, it could be a good idea
@ArtOfCode Shog9, Robert Cartaino, bluefeet, JNat, and jmac are in theory available at the moment, but they most likely have other things going on. Also, Tim would be the best choice.
8:58 PM
@ArtOfCode sure if there is something I can help with or need to know
We're just looking to see if you need any information from Stack Exchange, and perhaps we could try to get their attention
@massonpj I think we're OK at the moment, but if you think there's a discussion to be had with SE that would benefit from us being here, then we can try to get hold of them.
@Zizouz212 Honestly, it's on us as the MOU is waiting for our legal folks (the person doing it left)
OK :)
I don't think any SE staff has been around for the past hour, the election results for Crypto haven't been posted yet
9:00 PM
@ArtOfCode I am good. I will touch base with Tim and share that we all talked
I don't think we need anything now... Anything else can be saved up for later
@massonpj Sounds good, thanks
Yes thanks
@ArtOfCode @Zizouz212 I will also point him to this chat
Good idea :)
9:01 PM
thanks all for the updates
Okay good. :)
Okay! See ya :D
@massonpj Thank you.
9:01 PM
Thanks for coming out :)
no worries thanks for sticking with us (bureaucrats)
Have a good one :)
So, thoughts, all?
Darn, I caught up too late
@overactor Ah well :) Thoughts?
9:07 PM
@ArtOfCode I think this is good, OSI feels positive about what we're doing here.
I'm feeling the same
It oviously isn't clear yet what sort of involvement we're looking at, but any involvement would be great
I'm also thinking our position is pretty good for maintaining neutrality between organisations.
I think the understanding is that they point questions to us
I also felt very positive about the relationship they have with fsf and cc
@ArtOfCode That does seem like a given at this point
I just finished catching up on all the discussions I missed over the past ~48 hours, and I think that the neutrality issue is looking okay.
9:08 PM
which would be great
OK, just finished reading all
@HDE226868 You did miss a lot of stuff...
As I understand they would point questions to us, we would inform them of interesting questions
We should talk about which questions should result in a ping to the OSI
Yeah. I'm thinking I can set up a web server to get the top questions and send them off
All tagged OSI, open-source or similar (automatic) or handpicked by human?
9:10 PM
@Mnementh Well, hight votes low answer would be good candidates
with relevant tags
@overactor so you say something automatic
handpicked should definitely be a possibility too
@ArtOfCode What if you cannot maintain? Would we know the feed is broken?
@Mnementh valid concerns; valid concerns for any automatic system.
We could set up something that checks for good candidates biweekly or so
9:11 PM
isn't the OSI mailing list public?
How's about this: we have a chatroom where people can drop in with questions they think should be sent, and someone sends the list at the end of the day
@ArtOfCode I'll help you with that
and supplement that with handpicked ones
even if we handpick, we could still set up a bot to help
Which @ArtOfCode and I can do :D
the delay will also help with filtering questions that end up closed as dupe or plain off-topic
9:13 PM
My original thought was to set up the bot we have to accept question nominations, which people would come into chat and give it. It'll send them off each day or something.
@ratchetfreak Yeah, we probably don't want to spam the OSI-mailinglist with unimportant stuff.
If we have something automatic, it should never send off questions younger than two days or so
Good idea
Though that limit will require some tuning
@ArtOfCode only authorised users though, right?
If the questions are all adequately answered, there's no point; if they're too young they may yet get closed.
@overactor Yeah, or users over a certain threshold of something
9:15 PM
@ArtOfCode if a question has gathered 3 or more closevotes, it's out too
I'd say anyone that can get into chat should be allowed to submit a question
unless it's handpicked of course
We can always just ban people
@overactor enough reputation should suffice, although some users should have the right to correct completely bogus nominations
@ArtOfCode trusted users, mods and specially authorised ones?
trusted is 2000 on beta, right?
9:16 PM
a blacklist over a whitelist and require at least the 20 rep for chat
Nah lower priv level than that
trusted user is 4k in public beta
forgot a 0
and 20k when graduated
maybe 1000 would be better?
I think it should be low, like close voter (500)
9:17 PM
Worry about policy before you worry about tools
also, a limit on how many you can send per day
There aren't that many questions. Start by doing it manually and see how it goes.
@Gilles Good idea
9:17 PM
@Gilles The idea is sort of joint: people manually select questions and submit them for automatic sending
Were tool kind of people though. but you're obviously right, manual will do for now.
@ArtOfCode Yeah, Gilles suggests that at first the number will be low, so we can test it manually before including the bot -> this should help to define the rules for the bot
Ok, good idea
No one can stop anyone from starting to build a bot though
and feedback from OSI will be needed to properly fine tune which questions should go to them
9:20 PM
@overactor ahem
Could we repurpose this room to be for all OSI related stuff?
room topic changed to Discussion with OSI: A chat room for discussing anything about the Open Source Initiative (OSI) and (no tags)
9:21 PM
room topic changed to Discussion with OSI: A chat room for discussing anything about the Open Source Initiative (OSI) and [discussion,] [licensing,] [odd-greetings] [osi,]
9:22 PM
Random commas?
room topic changed to Discussion with OSI: A chat room for discussing anything about the Open Source Initiative (OSI) and [discussion] [licensing] [odd-greetings] [osi]
better, gracias
@ArtOfCode Saw that before you pinged me.
9:23 PM
Did masson mention getting into contact with SE?
So we nominate questions for sending to OSI here in this room. massonpj gives us a good email to send it too. We should probably start after open beta starts, so anyone on the mailing list can follow the links. Am I right?
Yes he did
He's going to do it (or the OSI at any rate)
About 1-2 weeks into public we can start with that, once we get everything sorted out
@Mnementh You are right
9:24 PM
@overactor one of the CM was mod-pinged and they'll take it from there
@Zizouz212 It wouldn't be bad if we could get a few answers from OSI member during private once in a while though
If we've got a suitable question
That's fine.
@ratchetfreak Ah yes
@overactor I don't think it matters overly to be honest; bonus if we do, but not necessary
9:25 PM
Me, Tim Post and massonpj mailed back and forth for a bit a few months ago

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