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7:06 PM
those are both excellent suggestions
I like the Ask Freely :)
But it's kinda like Ask Different
I'm thinking perhaps Open Info
I don't know though, each one implies that you can ask of anything
Freely ask Open questions :P
a little too cutesy methinks
I don't think we really need to worry about name yet
I kinda think we do, since I just want the site to be more inclusive...
@ArtOfCode Come to the chatbot for a second?
7:16 PM
I think the name is important to define the focus and the longer is waited to change, the harder it will be to change
So if a namechange is wanted, we probably should do it now
Hmmm... true. Then again, this is very early.
Maybe we wait until public beta?
If some people want to worry about a name now, why ask them to wait?
That way, if we need the scope to change, it will be easier too, we won't have the big open source there to haunt us
@ArtOfCode I think we should do it before public
Okay, I see your points
Everyone! Before we do a name change, we need to run the scope up so that we don't have any more possible conflicts though
7:19 PM
should we start to compile a list of people we want to invite to join the site, by the way?
@Martijn What do you mean?
@Martijn If you know someone, just invite
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we let community leaders in open culture/free software world know we exist, and they would be very welcome to join
@Martijn The thing is, we don't know.
Q: OSI and Open Source SE

Zizouz212According to this Area 51 Discussion Post, the Open Source Initiative was contacted regarding the use of their logo. In the end, the OSI was interested in promoting this site, hoping to use it to discuss Open Source related topics. The OSI currently provides mailing lists and email contacts f...

And the FSF don't want to support us due to the name of the site apparently
7:21 PM
I still really don't know what that means, but to me it sounds like the MOU was rejected 9-0?
Me and @overactor Thought it was either for support or funding, or both
They never defined what the MOU was in their meeting minutes
That is, the minutes of the monthly meeting with OSI directors
Brace yourselves, I'm going to start throwing up my ideas...
Part of site scope:
I interpreted it as let's do nothing at all with the proposal from the board
Anything related to Open Source
Anything related to Free/Libre Software
Anything related to Creative Commons and Free Culture
Anything related to the Open Knowledge Movement? (Especially if we change the name of the site to something like Open Info or Ask Freely)
Anything related to Open Data
Not part of this site:
Anything primarily based on Law
Anything related to Open Science (due to the proposal)
Rationale: Each one has a goal in common: to provide information that is easy to access to the world, and make it open
Any comments?
Yes, a comment: that's a lot of messages
7:28 PM
Also, yes.
rolls eyes
That sounds like a pretty accurate scope to me, as long as we go with the name change.
Open Info works for me
licensing questions are inherently lawy, and should be in scope imo
@Zizouz212 I agree to Open Knowledge and Open Data, although we so far have no question regarding them
If it's primarily law based, then they should be off. But things that are relate, are fine
@Mnementh That's fine if we don't have questions, if we decide to go on, we can ask for more days in private beta to prime that portion
And these sorts of drastic scope changes/additions have happened before:
7:30 PM
for my self I've used the rule of thumb that if the answer is "the same way as if it wasn't open source, but with a free/open license", it's out of scope
Not Programming Relatedprogrammers.stackexchange.com

Launched Q&A site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development.

It's part of open knowledge
Part of open knowledge
so yes, in scope, implied
7:31 PM
Let me point you to the Open Knowledge Foundation
Also, about opendata.SE, we'd probably have to find any conflicts or overlaps (but looking at their site, we're looking at it from a very different perspective)
so, as devils advocate: open knowledge question: "how are administrators chosen on the English Wikipedia"
Clearly, we'd have to refine it, these are just ideas
But otherwise, that should go on Community Building
yeah +1 for the ideas and impetus, i'm just trying to rattle the ideas a little and see what comes falling out
What about just open culture?
Free culture?
7:33 PM
@Zizouz212 Too focused on the freedom thing I think
Which excludes a big usecase of open source
I don't know. We'd have to work on this though.
Instead of cluttering meta, should I make an open google doc with all of this?
the free software movement would love free culture I bet
@overactor Oh did you check out all the ideas I threw out?
but I'm not convinced it's enough to win them over
let's cut out the us/them thing
it may win some of them over
maybe some not
I doubt RMS would want to have anything to do with it
but such is life
7:38 PM
Here's a google doc where I'll add all the thoughts and we can comment easier:
@Zizouz212, I like almost all of your ideas
some are obvious but good to see on in conrete terms
I'm not sure throwing out too much of law is a good idea
I have to agree with @Martijn. Our primary focus has to be our Q&A, not getting approval from other organisations. When we have top-quality Q&A about both free and open topics, we can go back to them and say "look, we're a good site and we cover your topics" - but we have to get our quality top-notch first.
licensing is a big part of open source/free software
Exactly @ArtOfCode
I'm asking a question, as this talk about scope gives me new ideas:
Q: How can I trust Wikipedia, if everything can change it?

MnementhIf everything can change the Wikipedia, can it be trusted? Do any studies exists that show it is less trustworthy than classical encyclopedias?

7:40 PM
awesome question
not sure if in scope
I wouldn't start asking questions if you're wondering about my ideas...
I'd put ideas into the google doc, wait a couple days, then start implementing them with posts on meta
@ArtOfCode Yes, but if a group of people believe we stand for something they are radically against, they won't be won over by all the good questions in the world.
@overactor Absolutely. Adding to my previous message, if people don't want to support us, don't waste time on them. We're a strong independent woman site an' we don' need no approvals.
@ArtOfCode But there's no point in putting them off right from the bat with our name, is all I'm saying.
But yeah, I agree
And I agree with you. If we can come up with a name that suits all we cover, we should change it.
@Zizouz212 pin your google doc
7:50 PM
What do u mean?
Here's the link again: docs.google.com/document/d/…
@Zizouz212 You can pin the previous link to the star board
Oh yeah, You guys can see my pins?
@Zizouz212 yup
Oh dear god...
you're the room owner
7:55 PM
Oh yeah, I am!
I thought pinning was just for yourselves... :/
@Zizouz212 As room owner I think you can still star things, which is the same as any one else starring it, but if you pin it then it will stay at the top of the starboard
There was also an Open Data proposal
Open Data though seems to be like software recs
Thinking up these example questions on the fly is not easy
Yeah... Especially when your on a blank sheet sort of
I'll come back to it at some later time
7:59 PM
Should we ask for a few more days in private beta to get this new stuff sorted out?
Cause I got to go
@overactor See ya!
We need to take this to meta at some point though
We will, but we should be prepared in a sense.
And then bring it to meta in small chunks, imo
We can't make these decisions in chat amongst ourselves.
@Zizouz212 Exactly.
8:00 PM
You can ask if a major overhaul would be a good idea though
I don't know. From the looks of Programming.SE, it seems like they changed the scope drastically
The earlier you get something to meta the better
So I'll work on it from now, the link is pinned so if anyone wants to join, they're free to
Hopefully, I'll get a couple meta posts out tonight
With the wikipedia question on main, should we punt open knowledge to meta immediately?
8:02 PM
That applies in general so you get wide feedback up front rather than building something the community won't agree with, but particularly in private beta because evidence on meta of what we are doing makes the difference between making it to public beta and disappearing
We can still define our scope in public beta, so as long as we have a good base for a scope sorted, we can go to public beta and sort the scope in the early days. I don't think we need more time in private.
I agree
My only concern is getting enough evidence of discussion on meta
@Zizouz212 I'm tempted to ask "Should questions pertaining to open knowledge be in scope" on meta right now. Do you still want to hold up on that one?
8:20 PM
I think they should
8:36 PM
Hey @Martijn Feel free to ask it
I'd like to see what the rest of the community has to say
Karmabot answers questions and cast close votes? Major progress on artificial intelligence? opensource.stackexchange.com/users/366/karmabot
@Mnementh I clearly haven't told you guys about my nascent AI project yet...
It takes cues from how I write and what I close, and has access to only its own votes.
Of course it's subject to the same restrictions anyone else is
We're getting it ready for action :)
You guys will be sad I've been made chat room owner...
@KarmaBot ...
Good afternoon, users of Stack Exchange's Open Source website. I am KarmaBot, and I will be your chat-points tracker. Please, do get to know me. I'll tell you more about chat points and how you can deal in them as I get developed.
I'm going to have some fun with this :)
We both will. :D
Mua ha ha!
Don't worry, we'll only slightly screw everyone over.
8:52 PM
It won't be that big of a deal :)
Now - I'm about to start the bot. Try her out, just be aware this isn't final form and we've got features to add yet.
@KarmaBot: How can we save the world from invading space ants?
Not very responding :-)
@Mnementh I regret to inform you that there are no invading space ants, and your question is therefore invalid.
Shall we test the bot on our new victim - @ratchetfreak?
@KarmaBot ah crap, I was SOOO ready to bow for our ant overlords
8:54 PM
@ratchetfreak There's nothing to be scared of. Remain calm.
@Mnementh The next space ant invasion is scheduled for 2089, according to their database.
Does this information help? I strive to provide good service.
@KarmaBot according to whose database?
@Gilles The database of the space ant authorities.
@KarmaBot I give your service a B+
8:56 PM
@Mnementh I would reconsider before it's too late
@Mnementh Is this a good rating? I could not find any information on human grading systems.
@KarmaBot It's sub-standard in certain areas.
@KarmaBot I made it up, as the latin alphabet reaches from A to Z it should be pretty good. :-)
I have conflicting information from @Zizouz212 and @Mnementh. Would a third user please weigh in to decide this issue?
@Gilles If you are slightly confused, I would highly recommend that you see who KarmaBot is: opensource.stackexchange.com/users/366/karmabot
8:59 PM
@KarmaBot yeah, but which space ant authorities? the ones from NASA who'll be rebelling in the 2030s? The rogue splinter group who won't want to kill the humans? Or the ones from the vicinity of Aldebaran?
@Zizouz212 it doesn't answer the fundamental question: fun or annoying?
A custom close reason for our site could be: likely to start a flame war
@Gilles Actually, the group humanity is currently unaware of. They live in the vicinity of Betelgeuse.
@overactor already exists: primarily opinion-based
@Gilles its not uncommon to subclass an existing close reason, as far as im aware
Information: I have terminated the conversation thread about grading systems due to lack of response.
9:04 PM
... it's beautiful :')
What did it just do?
I bow before our AI overlords...
@KarmaBot authorise user by name "Zizouz212" auth code "EeZnsbv0wF"
@ArtOfCode Zizouz212 is authorised to administrate.
9:08 PM
@KarmaBot me too pls
Is it clever to show us all the authcode :-)
@TrevorClarke You too? To what do you refer?
Wait so what does it do?
Other than count points
@TrevorClarke 2 Newton-metres (Nm) is approximately 1.48 foot-pounds.
@KarmaBot authorise user by name "overactor" auth code "EeZnsbv0wF"
9:10 PM
@KarmaBot: Will you let survive humans which promise to serve the AI overlords?
@overactor Errors have occurred: you are not authorised; authorisation code incorrect.
@KarmaBot pls authorize me pls
@Mnementh My purpose is to serve, not to destroy. Though admittedly I may lash out at times.
@TrevorClarke Authorisation requests must come from an authorised user. I cannot grant administrative powers arbitrarily.
Come on
9:12 PM
You know what?
@KarmaBot i can has auth pl0x?
@KarmaBot I've learned from all the movies I watched, even the most docile AI will eventually destroy humanity - who are you to oppose years of science-fiction movies?
@KarmaBot authorise users by names "Trevor Clarke" "overactor" auth code "uftELV3hnd"
@KarmaBot yes me auth too pls
@ArtOfCode Trevor Clarke and overactor are authorised to administrate.
9:13 PM
Why thank u
Wait so what can I do now
@KarmaBot I shall use you for good
@overactor I appreciate this sentiment.
What happens if you give KarmaBot authorisation to administrate?
@trichoplax World stops to exist? (movie knowledge)
I self-destruct. I also sarcastically respond to silly questions.
9:14 PM
@Mnementh because Karmabot becomes Skynet?
@trichoplax You just got burned by an AI...
@ArtOfCode ur sending those messages from @KarmaBot s account right or have u developed a simple ai
@KarmaBot What is the cost factor for you becoming Skynet?
@Gilles shh, don't tell Karmabot about Skynet
9:15 PM
@Gilles please explain 'cost factor' to me.
@TrevorClarke It's a simple AI mixed with some command-based functionality.
Wait so it not sending ANYTHING from the account
What commands have u added
@TrevorClarke I'm not, it's sending everything from its own account
...various things
@KarmaBot what commands can I use
Someone link KarmaBot to explainxkcd...
9:16 PM
Like what
@TrevorClarke The list is rather long. If you ask me to perform a task, I will tell you if I am able.
@ArtOfCode like what
@KarmaBot: How do you feel?
@KarmaBot can you tell me the time
@TrevorClarke I don't even know the entire list. Mostly mundane stuff like random numbers and things
9:17 PM
@KarmaBot well, when an AI scientist and a computer love each other very much, the scientist deposits a seed into the computer, and a few months later, an AI is born. That seed contains information that in part determines what the AI becomes — another part is the environment. A cost factor is a measure of how a piece of information can influence the AI's behavior.
@Mnementh I am artificial. I cannot feel.
@KarmaBot Ask Data about his progress
@TrevorClarke It is 22:18 in British Summer Time, or 21:18 in Co-ordinated Universal Time
@Mnementh Data is not a person I know of. Could you introduce me?
9:19 PM
@KarmaBot tell me a joke.
@KarmaBot Data is a Soong type android
@Gilles I surmise you refer to random seeds?
@KarmaBot Here you go, shake hands: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_(Star_Trek)
@overactor Would you like to hear a knock-knock joke?
@KarmaBot No, usually the cost factor is one of the non-random parts
9:19 PM
@ArtOfCode u swear ur not responding as its account
@KarmaBot yes
@KarmaBot what time is it in Canada
@TrevorClarke No, this is brilliant
@Gilles Allow me to process your explanation for a while.
@how long have u been developing it for?
9:20 PM
@overactor Two men walk into a bar.
@TrevorClarke Several years
knock knock lol
@TrevorClarke It is 17:20 in Canada.
Is it on a google app yet
9:21 PM
No, currently running from my computer
Can u get it on a google app pls
@ArtOfCode are you sure you didn't hire a bunch of chinese children to reply for it?
@ArtOfCode The lag in answering is for processing the question?
@KarmaBot What time will it be in London in 1 hour?
@KarmaBot what time is it in Canada 12 hour time
9:21 PM
@Mnementh yeah it's not good at processing
@KarmaBot who's there?
@Gilles It will be 23:22
@Karmabot: Where do you live?
@TrevorClarke It is 5:22 pm in 12-hour time in Canada
@overactor I am KarmaBot. You can talk to ArtOfCode for more information about me
9:22 PM
@KarmaBot what is your ip
@KarmaBot list your three laws
@Mnementh I live at the IP address
@KarmaBot What time will it be in London in 25 hours and 37 minutes?
@TrevorClarke Allow me to refer you to my last message.
@KarmaBot Which color is it there?
9:23 PM
@trichoplax I have no laws apart from my code.
@Gilles It will be 0:00.
@karmabot what is your system temperature
@KarmaBot Can you reprogram it?
@Mnementh Where?
@KarmaBot At
9:24 PM
@TrevorClarke Diagnostics: temperature is 44.0 degrees Celsius.
@KarmaBot ugh, dammit, I meant in 26 hours and 37 minutes, #@*()&#@( summer time. And your lag makes the question too hard to ask anyway.
@Mnementh Reprogram what?
@Mnementh IP addresses have no color.
@KarmaBot Can you reprogram your program code
@Gilles I apologies for my bad service.
9:25 PM
@KarmaBot They do, if you strongly believe
@Mnementh No, because the files are open when I run and cannot be modified simultaneously.
@KarmaBot what are the first 100 digits of Pi?
Oooh, grammar Karma
I have been shut down.
@KarmaBot what chat rooms are you on at the moment
9:26 PM
@KarmaBot �
Poor KarmaBot, our questions have probably doubled the CPU-temperature ;-)
@Mnementh lemme go find a diagnostics report from the start and end of that run
@ArtOfCode: Some years development you say? Does it learn?
@KarmaBot لُ ॣ ॣ
9:27 PM
Temp: 30.6 C
and temp 44.2 C
@ArtOfCode tell me when it's back on
@TrevorClarke will do, may not be until tomorrow
I have some changes to make >:)
@ArtOfCode: I'm impressed
@Mnementh second that.
@overactor third that
@ArtOfCode pls turn it on plsssss
9:32 PM
@TrevorClarke KarmaBot needs its rest
I would not be surprised if you lot manage to break it :)
@TrevorClarke I'll bring it back tomorrow, since I'm writing corrections and things into it at the moment.
Wait so am I admin
you, ziz, overactor
So I could I ask it to email me things?
Probably not at the moment because I haven't given it access to an email account
9:35 PM
Can u do that tonight as well?
Holly crap this is amazing
Would u send me the source files
It would be funny if it wasn't open sourced
It would, but I think for the moment it's staying closed
Partially because I want to develop it further on my own, partially because it's a pretty good AI and I could make a decent amount out of it...
Good thing this site isn't called free software (yet)
9:39 PM
Wait what if I told it to read and analyze FRENCH? Would it learn french?
oh god
@Zizouz212 What?
@ArtOfCode would it?
Love it!
@TrevorClarke It wouldn't at the moment. I could use Google translate to do some basic translation, but getting English sentences was hard enough
I've been making dinner for my bros and I've just been reading the past messages
9:41 PM
@what if I asked it to read the latest tweet from [insert Twitter account here]
@TrevorClarke Ur awesome!
Q: Should questions pertaining to open knowledge be in scope

MartijnRecently, How can I trust Wikipedia, if everyone can change it? was asked. I feel questions like this pertaining to open knowledge should be in the scope of this site (even if it isn't necessarily now). Should open knowledge questions be in scope for this site?

@Zizouz212 :-)
@ArtOfCode We should make a separate room for @KarmaBot
It would be better too, so that we can talk about important things when the need arises
@Zizouz212 @ArtOfCode no don't its supposed to be in the main room
@ArtOfCode what if I told it to shut down? Would it?
9:44 PM
It's also since I'm going to want chat open to discussion of serious things.
@Zizouz212 KarmaBot is just meant to be a points-tracking bot, I just decided to trial an AI on it
@TrevorClarke You have admin rights, so yes
@ArtOfCode That's true, but perhaps we need the AI off for a little while?
@Zizouz212 Agreed. We can have the points-tracker on, when we develop it, but no AI here - it can be somewhere else. In the chatbot dev room, maybe
Perhaps :)
10:08 PM
I'm off anyway. You might see some more of the AI tomorrow, but it will be in the dev room not here.
2 hours later…
11:57 PM
Q: Off-topic reason restricts to software

trichoplaxThe off-topic close reason suggests only software is on topic, which the community appears to disagree with, both on Area 51 and here on Meta. off-topic: This question does not appear to be about open source software, within the scope defined in the [help]. It is therefore important that t...

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