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user55340
2:58 AM
@AshleyNunn my niece may be part Canadian. She's enjoying ice skating and at nearly 5 years old sat through an entire three periods of a college women's hockey game.
 
@MichaelT I think she's just Wisconsinite
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer That level of women's hockey fanaticism might go a bit further north... That said, she's also getting into playing cards (wonder how long before we can teach her euchre or sheepshead) and is currently a very strong go fish player.
 
@MichaelT Teach her Ergo
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer My brother got her a logic puzzle game that she's playing Its a 1d version of this game:
 
3:17 AM
@MichaelT I am so bad at skating, but I love hockey! Can't skate for beans, but I will watch happily
 
 
6 hours later…
9:33 AM
I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on Programmers StackExchangeYuval Itzchakov 1 min ago
 
 
2 hours later…
11:54 AM
XD
I guess this is Randall Monroe does Dilbert?
 
 
2 hours later…
2:18 PM
Comment of the day!
in Duga's Playground, 3 mins ago, by Duga
yeah SO isn't here to help you optimise your code use programmers.stackexchange.com as thwy are allowed code reviews and suggestions for optimisations on that page — ZoomVirus 29 secs ago
(Don't worry, Code Review folks already gave the user a bashing. The question is clearly SO material)
 
@ZoomVirus This is not on-topic for either Programmers or Code Review. There is a problem that needs to be fixed in this code, which belongs on SO. — Simon André Forsberg 1 min ago
@ZoomVirus: No, programmers.se does not do code reviews. Don't spread wrong information. On codereview.stackexchange.com we review working code that needs to be improved which doesn't seem to be the case here: this code doesn't work as intended. — Jeroen Vannevel 2 mins ago
 
2:41 PM
posted on March 01, 2015

This same nun visited Shinpuru in his garden the following day, where the monk was doing the last of his winter weeding. “You spoke to me of looking to the future,” said the nun. “But what are we in the future but mouldering corpses? Why, you are practically half a corpse now! I have seen how you let younger monks lead the projects you are offered. You voice no objection when these upstart

 
3:01 PM
6
A: Is it bad practice to make methods public solely for the sake of unit testing?

gbjbaanbYes it is very bad practice - you're letting your tools make design decisions for you. I think the main problem here is that you're trying to treat each individual method as a unit. This is generally the cause of all unit test woes. Except for some cases where your method is very complex and req...

"Yes it is very bad practice - you're letting your tools make design decisions for you"
I want to disagree with that claim but not sure how to word it
your tooling should very much influence your design decisions
 
ugh, no.
 
no to him or me?
 
@whatsisname Greenfield or brownfield development?
 
to you, though I perhaps phrased it stronger than I think it.
 
@ThomasOwens: either
 
3:08 PM
@whatsisname In brownfield development, your tools will influence your design decisions. They have to, unless you can afford to throw out your tools every time you turn around.
In greenfield development, the only thing that should impact your design decisions are your requirements. Customer, business, and regulatory requirements could impact your tools and design decisions, though.
 
@Telastyn: why wouldn't you allow your tooling to influence your design? If you make design decisions with no regard to what tools you have available, you are going to be wasting a lot of time spinning your wheels
 
good design should be unrelated to what IDE you use to implement it.
 
@whatsisname Why are you limiting yourself to only the available tools? If you can make a business case, why can't you possibly bring in other tools?
 
@ThomasOwens: though how you target your requirements should reflect what kind of tooling you have access to, or at least get tooling that will accomodate what your approach will be
 
You may not win all of those, but just because a specific tool isn't available doesn't mean you should ignore it, especially in up front activities.
@whatsisname Absolutely not.
Your requirements should be driven by user, customer, and business needs.
 
3:10 PM
your requirements yes
however
requirements don't just magically turn into software
and how you turn those into software
is going to depend on your tooling
 
And if you need different tooling, you try to acquire new tools.
You don't dismiss a design just because you don't have a tool, unless it's not feasible to obtain said tool.
 
which for a lot of development shops, is often the case
hence the general statement, letting your tooling influence your design being a very bad decision, is a dodgy claim
 
@whatsisname When making a general statement, it should be one that is considered the better practice.
The better practice is to not let your tooling influence your design.
Think about it this way.
Your design should be the best possible way to satisfy your requirements. You should be striving for that design as much as possible. Realistically, you likely won't be able to achieve that design for a number of reasons (budget, schedule, available knowledge, tools). But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to achieve as much of it as possible.
 
achieving it as much as possible means you have to consider the capabilities of your tools on hand + what you can acquire
in other industries, designs are absolutely dominated by the properties of tooling to create them
software isn't a whole lot different in that regard
 
@whatsisname That's a true statement. However, your initial design should consider everything and then be narrowed down.
 
3:25 PM
@ThomasOwens knowledge of existing toolset and potential other tools should have an impact on the design decision.
Adding new tooling onto a project is one of the red flags explicitly called out in Death March
 
@GlenH7 Yes, it should. As you refine your design. You shouldn't limit your initial designs to existing tools, though.
@GlenH7 That's why I asked if it was greenfield or brownfield development.
 
That's fair - I was further down the design decision process
 
im not saying to limit it to existing tooling
unless there is some constraint that prevents you from obtaining new tooling
 
In brownfield development, you want to minimize the introduction of new tools late in the process unless it's explicitly planned for. In greenfield development, you should consider all of the opportunities to refresh your tooling for this and future projects.
 
but you need to make design choices that will work well with the tooling you expect to have access to
there is no such thing as a "good design" in the abstract
 
3:28 PM
@whatsisname Yes, later in the design process.
Early in the design process, you should be looking for what kind of tooling may be good to acquire and introduce.
Again, in greenfield development or with sufficient planning and risk reduction in brownfield development.
 
your choice of design and your choice of tooling are going to decided in tandem in any sensibly planned project
as each influences the other
 
@whatsisname Yes, they are. But that is the opposite of letting your tooling decide your design. You're pretty much agreeing with me, against your initial statement.
 
how so
getting more/other tools is often not an option
 
And that narrows your design options down later in the design process.
When you are starting your design, you shouldn't restrict yourself based on available tools until you've determined that you can't introduce a new tool
Unless some tooling is fixed and is driven by a requirement.
 
a lot of shops have tooling that is fixed by political and bureaucratic nonsense
and that's hardly uncommon
 
3:35 PM
Like I said, that's a caveat to the general statement on the design process.
If you are going to depict a best in class design process, you will not tie your design to tools until later in the design process.
Any general statements on what the best practice is should be explicitly tied to a desired state, not a current state.
 
a best in class design process will be mindful of tools from minute one
not later
 
Mindful of all tools. Not mindful of only tools already acquired and in-house.
 
Tooling is for losers. Notepad and DOS prompt are all you need
Got an issue? Make a note in notepad (it's literally in the name)
want to code? You bet you're cracking open another notepad
build? Create a batch file (in notepad) and run it with your DOS prompt!
 
Stack Overflow is intended to answer objective questions that are generally useful to other programmers. This question is not of that sort, and is better suited to a forum or discussion group. I suggest having this conversation with your classmates, or even your professor. — Chris Baker 1 min ago
 
@Ampt You wouldn't happen to be in the business of selling consulting services, are you?
 
3:43 PM
@GlenH7 Conflict of interests? Me? Why I never....
 
True story - at a previous client, one of my peers was tasked with winning over the in-house development team and convincing them that using an IDE had advantages over using notepad. And yes, this was within the past decade, and yes, the client purported to use languages for which there were multiple IDEs to choose from.
Arguably, this company was supposed to be a technology driven place... And the company owned an enterprise wide license for a very good IDE for the languages they were using.
 
@GlenH7: I wouldn't doubt that for a second
your peer didn't work for a large aerospace defense contracter did he?
 
Nope. Well, not for that particular contract.
 
user55340
That looks better... while you're at it... want to give me one? ( ;-)... I promise to 'fix' the close vote review queue after I learn me some haskell. — MichaelT 2 mins ago
 
user55340
Btw, up vote that post. Not just my comment.
 
4:07 PM
Good morning, all you happy people.
 
@MichaelT I somewhat disagree with that sort of "we're going to pay Stack Overflow users a pittance and get huge amounts of easily available market data" type of ad
 
@RobertHarvey Woah, woah, woah there with the allegations and accusations....
 
Funny how worthless internet points are desirable, but a little money is insulting.
 
@MichaelT the fact that the survey rules are hosted on onedrive kind of lets the cat out of the bag...
Also, @RobertHarvey YOU DON'T KNOW ME!
 
Someone hasn't had their coffee yet this morning.
 
4:17 PM
I'm still in my skivvies eating reeses puffs. Coffee is for people who actually give a crap.
 
enderland drinks his tea
 
Ugh... I may have to get up and make some. My GF is pruning her 6000 song library by listening to the first 10 seconds of each of them before deciding whether to keep or delete them...
 
@Ampt headphones + simplynoise.com
 
noise-canceling headphones.
 
@RobertHarvey Yes, I use simplynoise.com through my noise-canceling headphones. The irony is not lost
 
4:20 PM
I find I don't even keep a library anymore. just toss pandora on and be done with it.
 
Same here. I've converted to the spotify way of life and probably won't go back
 
+1
 
Just wish that Taylor Swift would get off her high horse and let me shake it off...
 
Taylor Swift?
I honestly never expected to hear the name "Taylor Swift" in this chatroom.
 
Some people refer to her as TayTay, you know. Would you rather hear that?
 
4:25 PM
Or T Swizzle
 
C'mon, Taylor Swift?
 
What, you're gonna judge me on my music tastes?
 
I could just as well say "I fancy a little Vanilla Ice."
 
More power to you in my book.
 
That would be awesome.
 
4:26 PM
ice ice baby
 
Stop! Collaborate and listen!
 
"Wait is this Vanilla Ice or Queen..."
 
user55340
Vanilla ice queen cream?
 
It's easy to tell, actually.
 
4:28 PM
Man craigslist spam is weird now
> I can come over tomorrow evening after work or as earlier as possible on Tuesday by 10am to

look at the item if you can give me direction to get to you or a phone number to reach you

can email me at << sketchy email address>>
 
@ThomasOwens yeah, once someone starts rapping, or someone tells you about the implications of a low volume, high mass closed-system
 
user55340
Hmm... Vanilla Ice doing a cover of Cream in the style of Queen?
 
@Ampt In the beginning. There's a difference.
Before any words are even said.
 
@MichaelT That audience looks so stoned.
 
user55340
One saw a one man bar band - Frank Joseph. He did a bit of Frank does Frank does Frank. Frank Joseph does Frank Sinatra in the style of Frank Zappa (and vice versa )
 
4:32 PM
I.. uh... that would be so emotionally confusing
haha
 
user55340
@Ampt operative word: bar entertainment. We were all drunk.
 
I find Taylor Swift engrossing, but only because I cannot believe someone could possibly be that vapid.
 
sigh usually it takes a little more than a couple hours for chat to devolve into crap slinging on mondays :P
 
user55340
@Telastyn if you were appropriate age, would you date her knowing you will brak up eventually and she will make millions writing about how the relationship was?
 
when I was the appropriate age, I would date anything that showed the vaguest interest in me.
 
user55340
4:35 PM
(Hmm... Dating prenup with her to get a cut of any songs directly attributed to you?)
 
heh.
apt-get moo
 
@MichaelT I'd prenup to duet the breakup song
 
WHY IS THIS NOT IN THE MAN page
 
moo?
 
run it lol
 
4:37 PM
just googled it... lol
 
user55340
@enderland get the ack grep program.
 
of course
 
and sorry if I'm crabby this morning, I've been dealing with:

[TestMethod()]
public void OSVersionManagerConstructorEmptyTest()
{
OSVersionManager target = new OSVersionManager();
Assert.IsNotNull(target);
}
 
psr
@RobertHarvey I think the point of writing that code is that it forces you to come up with tests that can't be satisfied by a silly implementation.
 
4:42 PM
@Telastyn What's the problem? That test will always pass! ;)
 
@psr The diametric opposite of that is writing code like Assert(IsPalindrome.If(oneDigit)), which is equally ridiculous, because you're basically writing the implementation at that point.
 
@durron597 (ignoring the other problems) it's taking 15 seconds to pass. Mildly more complex tests are timing out.
 
@RobertHarvey From Practical unit testing:
> This snippet of code really does satisfy the failing test. You could call it an absurdity, but there is wisdom in this folly. What it does prove is that your test is not good enough to cover a certain functionality. It says "Look, your test is so pathetic, that I can make it pass by doing such a silly thing. You need to try harder." And it really makes you write more tests.
 
Yes, but to do that, you have to go beyond simple cases.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't really understand TDD in its purest sense. I fully support test-first if it's informed by design. Without design, you're just flailing around in the dark.
 
@MichaelT - yw for that comment. :-)
 
4:50 PM
@Telastyn these types of things, like property and constructor tests like that simply fall under the "I really don't know how to do anything useful here, so I'll just do something that I can do, and claim it's what I'm supposed to do" - subconciously people just making up stupid shit because they don't know how to unit test in a meaningful way
there's tons of things people do just because they don't know how to do something useful in a given situation, but they're getting paid so they have to do something, so they just make up something they do know how to do, even if it isn't helpful. Like FCubes
 
oh, I completely agree. most of the time, I see it because some idiot manager declares code coverage goals.
 
yup
 
SUB OUT ALL DEPENDENCIES OR ELSE
ALL FUNCTIONS MUST BE INJECTED
NEVER USE THE NEW OPERATOR
 
kill me now
 
5:00 PM
> bang
 
Get that man a valium.
Sounds like another DI zealot is on the loose.
 
@durron597 I literally couldn't read past this line:
> Before we go further I want you to visualize your application in your mind.
The LA software design methodology? This guy's background must be in doggy yoga and vedic spa treatments
> Imagine your application being a light and happy person, it's full life and grand smile shining upon all that it touches.
 
You're just dismissive because your crystals are not in alignment.
 
whenever people write blog posts about software development and methodology
they should have to put a disclaimer indicating whether they work on miserable huge ultra-configurable enterprise monstrosities
2
or 'other'
"In an ideal application you can change the behavior of the application just by wiring the components differently. For example instead of instantiating LDAPAuthenticator you instantiate KerberosAuthenticator and you wire the KerberosAuthenticator to appropriate components which need to know about Authenticator. That is the basic idea."
 
@whatsisname I learned much of what I know about doing things right from spending years working on those. They taught me so many things not to do.
Many people take the opposite lessons from them unfortunately...
 
5:07 PM
I'm sure in an ideal world you can set a single preprocessor variable and MSWord will compile into MSExcel
 
psr
@JimmyHoffa Show up for work?
 
@whatsisname You don't have to. They always are working on miserable huge ultra-configurable enterprise monstrosities. The problem is, the other 95% of the world who doesn't need all this thinks "Hey, this sounds great. I'll use it in my application too!"
 
@psr spend any 24 hour period completely sober
 
psr
That's why I work on huge unconfigurable enterprise monstrosities.
 
I dunno, I think that article has made me a better programmer
 
5:09 PM
@whatsisname also I've learned lots of people who've never worked on those often think one of two things: Totally free-for-all is fine! It's always been fine in all my applications! (none of which ever had any complexity) or All those OO best practices and design structures are great! That's what all those big app guys do! (Though I never worked on one, so I never learned how horrible much of those "best practices" are)
 
Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use an IoC container." Now they have a factory of problems.
8
 
heh
 
psr
@RobertHarvey By the time that showed up on my screen it had 2 stars.
 
@psr I actually did laugh out loud
 
So what I'm saying is, I don't think one's experiences really tells you what they're capable of recognizing... Many work in terrible domains and make a habit of such designs, many never work in terrible domains and never learn how to try and solve difficult problems. Many work in terrible domains and learn how they became so terrible, and many never work in terrible domains and learn how to avoid causing all of those problems.
It's a total mixed bag. What makes one dev know what they're talking about vs. another nobody knows yet.
 
5:12 PM
well i think the problem is the mismatch between domains
 
I think the takeaway from this conversation is that OO design patterns and DI should be used sometimes but not always. Which I think isn't really anything new for most of us
 
and too many people assuming their domain encompasses the entire field
 
I mean, when building furniture, sometimes you use a screwdriver and sometimes you use a drill
 
@durron597 us, yes, others? It goes back to not knowing how to do something useful. People are asked to fulfill a business need, they don't know anything about the business or it's problems but they know software, so they go do something they do know how to do and grab a DI container and then try to decide how that will solve the problem they didn't understand to begin with
 
Some people always want to use a screwdriver because no one's ever taught them how to use a drill, some people always want to use a drill because "fk, why use a screwdriver when I can use a drill!" But the best carpenters use both appropriately
 
5:15 PM
@durron597 and I just use a hammer, because smashing shit is fun.
 
@JimmyHoffa hammer haskell
 
user114359
I feel like this question belongs at SO, but if I voted to migrate, it would just get closed there.
 
user114359
0
Q: Linking Javadoc Page from Github

Akhil JainI have been working on Github project Android-Commons. It is a collection of common Android Utilities. I have made documentation for Project code(See here). What I am facing issue is with I am not able to display/link Java documentation as link as see in jBloomberg(click on javadoc there). I ha...

 
enh, overuse of DI containers isn't some sort of mismatch from business to technical. I mean if you gave them a technical task they'd still fuck it up.
 
@Telastyn haha true, but it's a "everyone says do this, so I read about how to do it, and there's all kinds of tutorials out there that show me exactly how to do it, so I'll do it because it's the easiest available task plugs in some library"
 
user55340
5:16 PM
The way I look at the survey - advertising keeps the lights on. If not for that, there would be no SE.
 
right, but that's just sheepple doing sheepy things.
I don't see how the business or some domain causes people to not be able to think for themselves.
 
5
A: "Not a Real Question" that should be migrated over to StackOverflow?

ChrisFThe first rule of migration is: Don't migrate crap * So if the question is on topic for somewhere else, but is a "bad" question then it should be just closed as off topic in place rather than migrated. Comments should be posted to encourage the user to either: Improve the question so it ...

 
really? -1 on a meta site? who does that?
 
user114359
@JimmyHoffa that is exactly why I was hesitating to migrate. It is not exactly a crap question, just a little wordy and slightly unclear.
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey btw, going to add that quote to the two problems answer.
 
5:20 PM
wow I just looked at the "lifehack" stack exchange
what a miserable place
 
@whatsisname it was a neat idea and interesting to watch for the first week. But yes, it was doomed from the start. Was just fun watching the fireworks start
...but then they kept burning, and it became sad...
 
Like Chernobyl.
-2
Q: What design patterns does every developer need to know

Tom KerkhoveI was wondering what design patterns every developer, no mather what dev language, should know and why?

 
user114359
@whatsisname great idea in theory, but doomed from the start. It basically encourages people to post crap.
 
I like the "I can think for myself" pattern.
 
lol poor Sam
 
5:23 PM
Oh, found a great new interview question. "What is the CQRS pattern, why is it important, and how have you used it in one of your previous applications?"
 
user114359
I am still trying to figure out this question:
 
user114359
0
Q: Why does 'zip' ignore the dangling tail of the collection?

greenoldmanI didn't check all possible languages, but C#, Scala, Haskell, Lisp, Python have the same zip behaviour -- one collection is longer, tail is silently ignored. Technically it could be an exception thrown as well -- but I didn't read about such approach, if I see any variations is to automatically ...

 
Someone said that CQRS is related to event stream processing?
 
@RobertHarvey can we call "problem analysis" a design pattern? It goes like this: I write down my problem, then I try and break it up into multiple parts of smaller and smaller sizes until I can see the problem as a bunch of sub-problems, then I try to think about how to solve each one in isolation and look for patterns in the problems to come up with a generalized problem in case the solutions can be generalized as well. There ya go, one-stop-shop universal everyone-should-know-it design pattern.
 
I like it. We should patent it.
 
user114359
5:24 PM
Is he asking about zip files generated in different language libraries? If so, did the thought cross his mind that maybe he should check the zip standard?
 
no
zip is a function that takes two collections and returns one collection of pairs.
 
@JimmyHoffa: your pattern is unacceptable as it is incompatible with 95% of "developers"
 
mostly only used by FP devotees
 
> Developers! Developers! Developers!
 
user114359
5:28 PM
@Telastyn based on the list of languages I figured as much, my experience with FP consists of one semester in college.
 
@Snowman ...because there's no obvious way to complete the tail. Any choice on how to do it would result in a non-obvious tail. The key is to lengthen your shortest list to match the length of the longest with values you expect - if zip did that for you, you couldn't know what values it was filling in intuitively. Did it cycle the list? Did it repeat a mempty value? What is a mempty value for your type?
 
user114359
@JimmyHoffa oh I understand that, I was just looking for the context of the question. If a zip function were to make up data to fill that last pair it would probably cause some hilarious failures.
 
I like it when man pages have more people getting credit for the man page than the actual application itself...'
 
user114359
seems to me the behavior is well-defined if you think of it as "get me the pairs of values between these two lists" rather than "consume these two collections"
 
0
A: Why does 'zip' ignore the dangling tail of the collection?

Jimmy HoffaBecause there's no obvious way to complete the tail. Any choice on how to do it would result in a non-obvious tail. The trick is to explicitly lengthen your shortest list to match the length of the longest with values you expect. If zip did that for you, you couldn't know what values it was fil...

 
6:28 PM
Hey I can write an answer which is helpful for a bountied questino...
 
@enderland go for it! repz!!!
 
6:49 PM
@Mr.Singh - This would be off-topic for Programmers. Algorithms are on-topic at Programmers, but this is too vague to be meaningfully answered. It sounds like a variant of the Job Scheduling problem, but needs more details. — GlenH7 59 secs ago
 
psr
@RobertHarvey Don't forget to change your resume to include a "patterns I've implemented" section.
 
@JimmyHoffa this sums it up pretty nicely...
 
This question is off-topic here for at least two reasons. 1) It's not a programming or programmers tools related question. 2) It's asking for a recommendation for a product, which is expressly mentioned as being off-topic here in item #4 of this help center page. — Ken White 1 min ago
 
7:49 PM
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/275002/child-object-depends-on-member-of-parent-object

smells like a duplicate...
oh, and speaking of awesome code snippets:

//check if file already exists and if it does throw an exception
if (File.Exists(filePath))
{
throw new FileNotFoundException(filePath);
}
the guy responsible for that one is still employed.
 
wat?
missing a !... ?
 
@Telastyn this is why resumes baffle me... I read these and see people have had gainful employment for years as varying levels even senior engineers for years - and don't know the most basic things you would have to know to do anything even slightly useful
 
no, the logic is correct, but the exception they decided to throw... is probably the worst possible.
 
@Telastyn exactly
it's a...file...exception...
close enough, right? :|
 
@Telastyn well to be fair it's not really clear to me from reading it what it's supposed to do since there are a number of possible meanings of that code :P
 
7:56 PM
yeah, I just presume that we have like like 4:1 jobs:competent programmer ratio.
 
@JimmyHoffa I'm going to be meeting with someone today at the college who is an expert at the job search process. The first thing she asked me on the phone was "I saw your resume. Where are your keywords?"
 
so someone has to fill those roles. I guess.
 
icanhazkeywordz
 
"we" being the world.
SEO your skills already.
 
@Telastyn I think it's worse than that... and yeah that basically is a likely cause (ish). If programmer salaries went up double tomorrow though, I guarantee you in 2 years far more smart capable people would be in the industry
 
7:58 PM
@JimmyHoffa the thing that gets me though is that mistake isn't even a language specific thing or otherwise, it's a basic logic mistake
 
truth be told, capable programmers could really be making a lot more money doing easier things if they wanted,,,
 
if you read that code in english you scratch your head
 
@enderland not a mistake
just a way to basically defy POLA in the most direct route possible
 
POLA?
 
@enderland principle of least astonishment
 
8:00 PM
@JimmyHoffa I doubt it. Someone has to make those people capable, and the current university environment is antithetical to that task.
 
the file is there...so I get a file not found exception... :o
@Telastyn I haven't decided the decision of whether everyone can be made capable or not yet. I have gone back and forth over the years and don't really know, but lately I lean towards the "Most people simply haven't the right mindset to be good at this stuff regardless of amount of experience and education"
 
@JimmyHoffa how so do you think? I mean, programming is dead simple and pretty well paid (and low risk).
 
programming is not dead simple
 
I'm not slandering the capability of people as much as the skill of university professors at teaching programming.
 
it requires the ability to have a ton of abstract information in your head simultaneously
 
8:02 PM
...which is dead simple?
 
@Telastyn that's your perspective. (mine too) but the conversations I have with other employed coders tells me I may be biased by personal ability.
 
hrmf
 
@Telastyn a lot of people are really, really bad at any sort of abstract thinking
 
@Telastyn I'm not slandering the capability of people, just stating that I think good coding may require a more specialized person than we realize
 
@JimmyHoffa yeah, I tend to think that some people can't be programmers, but that was besides my comment.
@enderland most people are really bad at any sort of thinking...
 
8:04 PM
most people can make stuff work that's true, but the vast majority of people will never get beyond correctly-working-logic that does things like you detailed above because it relies on a level of logical abstraction that...maybe can be taught but isn't, or maybe some people simply never developed, I don't know why but by adulthood it seems a large number of folk will never have the facilities necessary
 
@Telastyn I don't disagree ;) most people who are active here likely surround themselves with ridiculously smart and/or experienced and/or knowledgeable people
 
@enderland and thus, confirmation bias
 
@JimmyHoffa I've tried tutoring people on basic programming before (like, single method doing like 8 things type of simple) and the basic thought process is "hard" for some reason
"you need to do these 8 things in this order... so write this down in psuedo code, with words, what you are trying to do" is hard for some folks
 
what I've seen is it depends on how people learned the concept of a variable. If people actually grok it, then programming can extend from that.
 
8:18 PM
@Telastyn: 4:1? More like 25:1
 
How are you guys defining good coders? If you're referring to the kind that can make factoryfactoryfactories in Java from a detailed software specification and write good documentation in the proper format, I can certainly do that. I'd be bored out of my skull, but I could do that.
 
a) I don't like the term coder, but ignoring that, in my mind, a good coder is someone that you can say "I need a program that does blah" where blah is often some very vague concept, and the person can figure out what blah really means, and can make a software that does it, in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable quality
and they can get it done without you having to guide them along
 
If that's what a good software developer is, then why aren't more companies asking for that, rather than someone who happens to know the latest buzzworks like CQRS, the latest technologies like Angular, and the sharpest abilities at solving puzzle tests?
 
Because HR
 
@RobertHarvey: because if you assign a guy a task, give him 6 months to complete it with no supervision, and he doesn't deliver, you're in a world of shit
 
8:24 PM
and it's hard to measure "reasonable quality"
 
and most companies won't take those kinds of risks
 
And yet, that happens all the time. It's how all of my projects were at NASA.
 
it's how a lot of projects are for me, but it's very uncommon
 
It's pretty much how my work was at Employer^^, because the owner didn't know anything about programming.
 
how do you tell someone is going to come through on that without actually taking a shot?
 
8:25 PM
I think I've had one business project where that was the case.
 
it's tough, so companies use buzzwords and other stuff as a proxy
plus, throw in a healthy dose of not knowing what we actually do, either
as far as anyone being able to be a programmer, I think that's definitely not the case
there is a talent for it you are either born with or you're not
and if you don't have that talent you're always going to be mediocre at best
 
Jeff Atwood says as much in his blog. Apparently there are some cognitive thresholds you have to cross to become an effective programmer. One of them is assignment (where x = !x actually means something). Another is recursion. Many people can't make the journey.
 
lol
boo mBool = false
if (!mBool) {
...
mBool = true;
}
hopefully there was a good reason for this sort of logic in what I'm looking at :)
 
There's probably some code in between that was removed at some point.
 
@whatsisname I don't like the term either, but it's the most general of the terms I'm familiar with - I only use it when waving vaguely at everyone-who-can-write-code, programmer is a bit of a loaded term because it was at historical points a job title with specific expectations of skill etc otherwise I'd use that term for the vague "everyone"
 
8:38 PM
@RobertHarvey yeah I'm really hoping so too, though, that entire method is like 15 lines long and so it's a bit sad to not fix that too since you can remove many lines of the code
 
@enderland I'm guessing that code is in the middle of a loop. It's a "one-shot," a mechanism that insures the code in the if statement only gets executed once.
 
Ahhh, it's a static bool...
doh :)
enderland feels dumb
 
@enderland why is it called mBool when it's a local?
computers are magic, ergo it is a magic bool?
 
maybe bools are tasty.
 
user114359
He's a fan of South Park, mmmkay?
 
user114359
8:49 PM
In other news, I am always thrilled when I can link the ternary bool DailyWTF:
 
user114359
0
Q: Why use a bool over more domain specific abstractions

mortalapemanBooleans are often used to model domain specific dichotomies. The most common example I can think of is the success or failure of an operation. It seems to me that a boolean must be interpreted in the context in which it is used as opposed to something more specific to the domain of the function....

 
9:22 PM
Ughhh. "code coverage" drives people to do the most ridiculous things
 
I think there are many sources of people doing ridiculous things
 
row(row(row(self.bool)))) down the data stream, true, true, true, full coverage is but a dream.
@RobertHarvey what happens if it's an IoC container for Regex?
 
user114359
I like code that tests properties/accessors. Buddy, if that test fails, the sky is probably raining blood and you have more important things to worry about.
 
9:48 PM
Ok, I get that when you change to a different platform, you'll make API changes that are necessary for performance, like giving packets the same sequence number because you're compressing multiple messages into one packet
That at least make sense.
But if bitflag 12 = isFractional in version 2, why would you make bitFlag 11 = isFractional in version 3?
and shift all the other bitflags up one spot
 
you hate the world
 
@Telastyn I hate the world? Or they do.
 
it is the only viable reason for shifting your bit flags
you hate the world, and wish them to suffer.
 
10:33 PM
@WorldEngineer The universe implodes.
 
@WorldEngineer facedesk
 
10:59 PM
This may be a better fit for Programmers(programmers.stackexchange.com). Their on-topic list includes development methodologies and processes and software engineering managementBarmar 38 secs ago
 
11:45 PM
So I got hit up by one of those Microsoft Tech Support scammers today.
 
@RobertHarvey The phone calling ones?
 
@RobertHarvey This is what you get for having a landline
 
My mom used to get those a lot until they gave up the landline, and my mom was so proud of herself for being like "no I have an iPad, it's Apple, go away"
 
I would be like "I am a freelancer, by talking to me, you are agreeing for me to bill you for my assistance with your problem. Please provide a paypal account number, I also accept bitcoi..." click
 
11:52 PM
I am not sure how I feel about you accepting bitcoin ;)
 
So the owner of Employer^^ agrees to provide a "technical reference" to a recruiter. When the recruiter calls him, he declines, stating that "my lawyers won't let me."
Then he emails me stating the same. Jesus Christ, does he use that same excuse with everyone he wants to say no to?
 

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