The Whiteboard

user55340

2:58 AM

@AshleyNunn my niece may be part Canadian. She's enjoying ice skating and at nearly 5 years old sat through an entire three periods of a college women's hockey game.

user20683

@MichaelT I think she's just Wisconsinite

user55340

@WorldEngineer That level of women's hockey fanaticism might go a bit further north... That said, she's also getting into playing cards (wonder how long before we can teach her euchre or sheepshead) and is currently a very strong go fish player.

user20683

@MichaelT Teach her Ergo

user20683

catalystgamelabs.com/ergo

user55340

@WorldEngineer My brother got her a logic puzzle game that she's playing Its a 1d version of this game:

user55340

3:09 AM

amazon.com/FoxMind-5512646-Metaforms/dp/B0015MC2TO

user15026

@MichaelT I am so bad at skating, but I love hockey! Can't skate for beans, but I will watch happily

Duga

9:33 AM

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on Programmers StackExchange — Yuval Itzchakov 1 min ago

user20683

11:54 AM

Here at CompanyName.website, our three main strengths are our web-facing chairs, our huge collection of white papers, and the fact that we physically cannot die.

user20683

XD

user20683

I guess this is Randall Monroe does Dilbert?

Simon André Forsberg

2:18 PM

Comment of the day!

in Duga's Playground, 3 mins ago, by Duga

yeah SO isn't here to help you optimise your code use programmers.stackexchange.com as thwy are allowed code reviews and suggestions for optimisations on that page — ZoomVirus 29 secs ago

(Don't worry, Code Review folks already gave the user a bashing. The question is clearly SO material)

Duga

@ZoomVirus This is not on-topic for either Programmers or Code Review. There is a problem that needs to be fixed in this code, which belongs on SO. — Simon André Forsberg 1 min ago

@ZoomVirus: No, programmers.se does not do code reviews. Don't spread wrong information. On codereview.stackexchange.com we review working code that needs to be improved which doesn't seem to be the case here: this code doesn't work as intended. — Jeroen Vannevel 2 mins ago

Stack Exchange

2:41 PM

The Codeless Code: Case 181: Future Imperfect

posted on March 01, 2015

This same nun visited Shinpuru in his garden the following day, where the monk was doing the last of his winter weeding. “You spoke to me of looking to the future,” said the nun. “But what are we in the future but mouldering corpses? Why, you are practically half a corpse now! I have seen how you let younger monks lead the projects you are offered. You voice no objection when these upstart…

whatsisname

3:01 PM

6

A: Is it bad practice to make methods public solely for the sake of unit testing?

Yes it is very bad practice - you're letting your tools make design decisions for you. I think the main problem here is that you're trying to treat each individual method as a unit. This is generally the cause of all unit test woes. Except for some cases where your method is very complex and req...

"Yes it is very bad practice - you're letting your tools make design decisions for you"

I want to disagree with that claim but not sure how to word it

your tooling should very much influence your design decisions

Telastyn

ugh, no.

whatsisname

no to him or me?

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Greenfield or brownfield development?

Telastyn

to you, though I perhaps phrased it stronger than I think it.

whatsisname

@ThomasOwens: either

Thomas Owens

3:08 PM

@whatsisname In brownfield development, your tools will influence your design decisions. They have to, unless you can afford to throw out your tools every time you turn around.

In greenfield development, the only thing that should impact your design decisions are your requirements. Customer, business, and regulatory requirements could impact your tools and design decisions, though.

whatsisname

@Telastyn: why wouldn't you allow your tooling to influence your design? If you make design decisions with no regard to what tools you have available, you are going to be wasting a lot of time spinning your wheels

Telastyn

good design should be unrelated to what IDE you use to implement it.

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Why are you limiting yourself to only the available tools? If you can make a business case, why can't you possibly bring in other tools?

whatsisname

@ThomasOwens: though how you target your requirements should reflect what kind of tooling you have access to, or at least get tooling that will accomodate what your approach will be

Thomas Owens

You may not win all of those, but just because a specific tool isn't available doesn't mean you should ignore it, especially in up front activities.

@whatsisname Absolutely not.

Your requirements should be driven by user, customer, and business needs.

whatsisname

3:10 PM

your requirements yes

however

requirements don't just magically turn into software

and how you turn those into software

is going to depend on your tooling

Thomas Owens

And if you need different tooling, you try to acquire new tools.

You don't dismiss a design just because you don't have a tool, unless it's not feasible to obtain said tool.

whatsisname

which for a lot of development shops, is often the case

hence the general statement, letting your tooling influence your design being a very bad decision, is a dodgy claim

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname When making a general statement, it should be one that is considered the better practice.

The better practice is to not let your tooling influence your design.

Think about it this way.

Your design should be the best possible way to satisfy your requirements. You should be striving for that design as much as possible. Realistically, you likely won't be able to achieve that design for a number of reasons (budget, schedule, available knowledge, tools). But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to achieve as much of it as possible.

whatsisname

achieving it as much as possible means you have to consider the capabilities of your tools on hand + what you can acquire

in other industries, designs are absolutely dominated by the properties of tooling to create them

software isn't a whole lot different in that regard

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname That's a true statement. However, your initial design should consider everything and then be narrowed down.

user41796

3:25 PM

@ThomasOwens knowledge of existing toolset and potential other tools should have an impact on the design decision.

user41796

Adding new tooling onto a project is one of the red flags explicitly called out in Death March

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Yes, it should. As you refine your design. You shouldn't limit your initial designs to existing tools, though.

@GlenH7 That's why I asked if it was greenfield or brownfield development.

user41796

That's fair - I was further down the design decision process

whatsisname

im not saying to limit it to existing tooling

unless there is some constraint that prevents you from obtaining new tooling

Thomas Owens

In brownfield development, you want to minimize the introduction of new tools late in the process unless it's explicitly planned for. In greenfield development, you should consider all of the opportunities to refresh your tooling for this and future projects.

whatsisname

3:27 PM

but you need to make design choices that will work well with the tooling you expect to have access to

there is no such thing as a "good design" in the abstract

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Yes, later in the design process.

Early in the design process, you should be looking for what kind of tooling may be good to acquire and introduce.

Again, in greenfield development or with sufficient planning and risk reduction in brownfield development.

whatsisname

your choice of design and your choice of tooling are going to decided in tandem in any sensibly planned project

as each influences the other

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname Yes, they are. But that is the opposite of letting your tooling decide your design. You're pretty much agreeing with me, against your initial statement.

whatsisname

how so

getting more/other tools is often not an option

Thomas Owens

And that narrows your design options down later in the design process.

When you are starting your design, you shouldn't restrict yourself based on available tools until you've determined that you can't introduce a new tool

Unless some tooling is fixed and is driven by a requirement.

whatsisname

3:34 PM

a lot of shops have tooling that is fixed by political and bureaucratic nonsense

and that's hardly uncommon

Thomas Owens

Like I said, that's a caveat to the general statement on the design process.

If you are going to depict a best in class design process, you will not tie your design to tools until later in the design process.

Any general statements on what the best practice is should be explicitly tied to a desired state, not a current state.

whatsisname

a best in class design process will be mindful of tools from minute one

not later

Thomas Owens

Mindful of all tools. Not mindful of only tools already acquired and in-house.

Ampt

Tooling is for losers. Notepad and DOS prompt are all you need

Got an issue? Make a note in notepad (it's literally in the name)

want to code? You bet you're cracking open another notepad

build? Create a batch file (in notepad) and run it with your DOS prompt!

Duga

Stack Overflow is intended to answer objective questions that are generally useful to other programmers. This question is not of that sort, and is better suited to a forum or discussion group. I suggest having this conversation with your classmates, or even your professor. — Chris Baker 1 min ago

user41796

3:41 PM

@Ampt You wouldn't happen to be in the business of selling consulting services, are you?

Ampt

@GlenH7 Conflict of interests? Me? Why I never....

user41796

True story - at a previous client, one of my peers was tasked with winning over the in-house development team and convincing them that using an IDE had advantages over using notepad. And yes, this was within the past decade, and yes, the client purported to use languages for which there were multiple IDEs to choose from.

user41796

Arguably, this company was supposed to be a technology driven place... And the company owned an enterprise wide license for a very good IDE for the languages they were using.

whatsisname

@GlenH7: I wouldn't doubt that for a second

your peer didn't work for a large aerospace defense contracter did he?

user41796

Nope. Well, not for that particular contract.

user55340

3:51 PM

That looks better... while you're at it... want to give me one? ( ;-)... I promise to 'fix' the close vote review queue after I learn me some haskell. — MichaelT 2 mins ago

user55340

Btw, up vote that post. Not just my comment.

Robert Harvey

4:07 PM

Good morning, all you happy people.

enderland

@MichaelT I somewhat disagree with that sort of "we're going to pay Stack Overflow users a pittance and get huge amounts of easily available market data" type of ad

user41796

@RobertHarvey Woah, woah, woah there with the allegations and accusations....

Robert Harvey

Funny how worthless internet points are desirable, but a little money is insulting.

Ampt

@MichaelT the fact that the survey rules are hosted on onedrive kind of lets the cat out of the bag...

Also, @RobertHarvey YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

Robert Harvey

Someone hasn't had their coffee yet this morning.

Ampt

4:17 PM

I'm still in my skivvies eating reeses puffs. Coffee is for people who actually give a crap.

enderland

enderland drinks his tea

Ampt

Ugh... I may have to get up and make some. My GF is pruning her 6000 song library by listening to the first 10 seconds of each of them before deciding whether to keep or delete them...

durron597

@Ampt headphones + simplynoise.com

Robert Harvey

noise-canceling headphones.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Yes, I use simplynoise.com through my noise-canceling headphones. The irony is not lost

Telastyn

4:20 PM

I find I don't even keep a library anymore. just toss pandora on and be done with it.

Ampt

Same here. I've converted to the spotify way of life and probably won't go back

enderland

+1

Ampt

Just wish that Taylor Swift would get off her high horse and let me shake it off...

Robert Harvey

Taylor Swift?

I honestly never expected to hear the name "Taylor Swift" in this chatroom.

Thomas Owens

Some people refer to her as TayTay, you know. Would you rather hear that?

Ampt

4:25 PM

Or T Swizzle

Robert Harvey

C'mon, Taylor Swift?

Ampt

What, you're gonna judge me on my music tastes?

Robert Harvey

I could just as well say "I fancy a little Vanilla Ice."

Ampt

More power to you in my book.

Thomas Owens

That would be awesome.

Robert Harvey

4:26 PM

ice ice baby

Thomas Owens

Stop! Collaborate and listen!

Ampt

"Wait is this Vanilla Ice or Queen..."

user55340

Vanilla ice ~~queen~~ cream?

Thomas Owens

It's easy to tell, actually.

user55340

CREAM - SUNSHINE OF YOUR LOVE (BEST VERSION)

►

enderland

4:28 PM

Man craigslist spam is weird now

> I can come over tomorrow evening after work or as earlier as possible on Tuesday by 10am to

look at the item if you can give me direction to get to you or a phone number to reach you

can email me at << sketchy email address>>

Ampt

@ThomasOwens yeah, once someone starts rapping, or someone tells you about the implications of a low volume, high mass closed-system

user55340

Hmm... Vanilla Ice doing a cover of Cream in the style of Queen?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt In the beginning. There's a difference.

Before any words are even said.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT That audience looks so stoned.

user55340

One saw a one man bar band - Frank Joseph. He did a bit of Frank does Frank does Frank. Frank Joseph does Frank Sinatra in the style of Frank Zappa (and vice versa )

Ampt

4:32 PM

I.. uh... that would be so emotionally confusing

haha

user55340

@Ampt operative word: bar entertainment. We were all drunk.

Telastyn

I find Taylor Swift engrossing, but only because I cannot believe someone could possibly be that vapid.

Ampt

sigh usually it takes a little more than a couple hours for chat to devolve into crap slinging on mondays :P

user55340

@Telastyn if you were appropriate age, would you date her knowing you will brak up eventually and she will make millions writing about how the relationship was?

Telastyn

when I was the appropriate age, I would date anything that showed the vaguest interest in me.

user55340

4:35 PM

(Hmm... Dating prenup with her to get a cut of any songs directly attributed to you?)

enderland

heh.

apt-get moo

ratchet freak

@MichaelT I'd prenup to duet the breakup song

enderland

WHY IS THIS NOT IN THE MAN page

Ampt

moo?

enderland

run it lol

Ampt

4:37 PM

just googled it... lol

user55340

@enderland get the ack grep program.

Ampt

of course

Telastyn

and sorry if I'm crabby this morning, I've been dealing with:

[TestMethod()]
public void OSVersionManagerConstructorEmptyTest()
{
OSVersionManager target = new OSVersionManager();
Assert.IsNotNull(target);
}

psr

@RobertHarvey I think the point of writing that code is that it forces you to come up with tests that can't be satisfied by a silly implementation.

user55340

meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/287108/revisions

durron597

4:42 PM

@Telastyn What's the problem? That test will always pass! ;)

Robert Harvey

@psr The diametric opposite of that is writing code like Assert(IsPalindrome.If(oneDigit)), which is equally ridiculous, because you're basically writing the implementation at that point.

Telastyn

@durron597 (ignoring the other problems) it's taking 15 seconds to pass. Mildly more complex tests are timing out.

durron597

@RobertHarvey From Practical unit testing:

> This snippet of code really does satisfy the failing test. You could call it an absurdity, but there is wisdom in this folly. What it does prove is that your test is not good enough to cover a certain functionality. It says "Look, your test is so pathetic, that I can make it pass by doing such a silly thing. You need to try harder." And it really makes you write more tests.

Robert Harvey

Yes, but to do that, you have to go beyond simple cases.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't really understand TDD in its purest sense. I fully support test-first if it's informed by design. Without design, you're just flailing around in the dark.

user41796

@MichaelT - yw for that comment. :-)

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