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Cerbrus
Cerbrus
8:08 AM
"God says x" "God says y". So, just because some imaginative figure says it, it has to be true? Do you guys even understand that non-religious people have a very hard time taking people who believe that seriously?
 
fredsbend
fredsbend
9:00 AM
troll much?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
9:10 AM
@fredsbend: him or me?
 
 
4 hours later…
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
12:47 PM
@m59 That's a little insulting
@m59 That's not what I said at all
@m59 I don't believe we are evil.
@m59 That's fine for you, but I don't believe in God. And similarly to how you will not be swayed in your belief, I will likely not be swayed in my disbelief.
@m59 Completely disagree.
As for the "meaning", why can't we ascribe our own meaning to our existence? Why do we need God for that? I recognize no God, and yet my life is full of meaning.
People don't "worship" science - they see its value in every invention and every discovery. Every time something new about our universe is discovered, it gets us closer to the universe. It brings us closer together as a species. Science says "all who have something meaningful to say are accepted."
3
You just have to be able to back it up with evidence.
It has to be repeatable.
I'd much rather be beholden to the predictable and logical laws of the universe than the random and often spiteful will of a so-called "perfect" being.
 
Awal Garg
Awal Garg
This discussion would be more constructive if we didn't take everything written in the Bible for granted.
@ZachSaucier care to explain the unpin?
 
Zach Saucier
Zach Saucier
1:04 PM
why pin it?
it's no more important than any other one
 
Awal Garg
Awal Garg
so that it gets exposure?
 
Zach Saucier
Zach Saucier
we only have 3 people talking here :P
not like it's going to get overrun by stars
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Hehe
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@AwalGarg Honestly, it's been a long time since I've read the Bible... at least 10 years.
 
erikroyall
erikroyall
Bible is not evidence. It's a claim.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
1:15 PM
Agreed
Well that's just insulting.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
That's just rude (<-- Coming from someone that doesn't believe in the bible)
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
There's a big difference between saying the Bible is not the infallible word of God, and saying it has no value. It has value. It really does. I just don't think it's the word of God.
 
Zach Saucier
Zach Saucier
I understand where he's coming from somewhat. What I don't understand is why Awal is staying around
 
Awal Garg
Awal Garg
meh, I was kidding
 
erikroyall
erikroyall
20 hours ago, by Kyle Kanos
@AwalGarg I believe in God because no rational person could possibly look at the universe and decide, "Yep this was a gigantic fluke that our universe turned out this way"
Argumentum ad Ignorantium
 
Awal Garg
Awal Garg
1:22 PM
@ZachSaucier those 2 questions... remember?
 
Zach Saucier
Zach Saucier
no
 
Awal Garg
Awal Garg
Oct 24 at 14:11, by Zach Saucier
7 hours ago, by Awal Garg
1) (I can't phrase this one properly) What is the core root of people blindly believing in an unknown superficial bieng who goes against all common sense and material science?

2) What is the need of worshiping this bieng, whose existence is unconfirmed to me?
 
Zach Saucier
Zach Saucier
we've answered those. If you disagree, you disagree. I'm not going to continue repeating myself
 
erikroyall
erikroyall
 
TRiG
TRiG
1:56 PM
@RyanKinal It is, perhaps, a more important subject to think about. (Or, at least, more relevant to our day-to-day lives.)
> It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.
Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Great book.
 
TRiG
TRiG
in The Upper Room, Oct 4 '11 at 19:02, by TRiG
I'm not sure that intrinsically good is a useful, or even meaningful, measure. I'd go with intrinsically valuable. Humans are valuable (to humans, which is what we are). Hence we should seek to minimise pain. And there's the basic foundation of a consistent ethical system.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Ooh. I like that a lot.
 
TRiG
TRiG
Thanks.
 
 
2 hours later…
fredsbend
fredsbend
4:12 PM
@TRiG How do you feel about a duty to maximize human benefit, the flip side to this coin?
@Cerbrus You. Your statement is a good deal on the troll side if you ask me. I'm not sure who the "him" might be you are referring to.
I think you could have said the exact same thing differently and not made it sound like you were calling other people in this room imbeciles.
 
m59
m59
4:53 PM
@RyanKinal I have certainly said nothing without the deepest intention of doing good to you. I have no issue with anyone stating what they believe about me, so long as their intent is not to do me harm. I am fairly certain many things in this room have been said for the purpose of that, and that just reassures that the people I'm speaking with need Jesus to change their hearts.
It's my hope that we can both share our views openly and not take offense, so long as none is meant.
@RyanKinal @AwalGarg @Cerbrus You all have a problem with me saying "God says so". You have a problem with this because your most fundamental assumptions about reality are different from mine. I once help beliefs much life yours, so I understand this. It seems that you refuse to even consider why I'm saying this.
Without starting my thinking with God, I can ask the question "is there a God?" but I can't do so justifiably or with reason.
To quickly recap:
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
See, I understand that much. I have a problem with saying "God says so" because it's an imperfect human being that's saying God says so. I have heard nothing from God. I've heard from his believers. And his believers are inconsistent.
2
 
m59
m59
I cannot deny the existence of logic (I'll leave out the topic of morality and induction to make this simple)
In order to know something, as I know logic (I am certain of it and thus can't deny it), either I must know everything or have been told by someone that does and with such a power that prevents me from being mistaken.
I don't know everything. I must have been told by someone that does.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
I don't understand that part. I don't know why knowing something requires a being with absolute knowledge.
 
m59
m59
Oh, apologies, I left out that Logic, which I am certain of, leads us to requiring reasons for belief/action and thus I'd even need a reason for reason itself.
@RyanKinal recall, I asked Benji if he could be mistaken about everything he knows. He said "of course".
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Sure. But that doesn't mean he is mistaken
It means that he could be
 
m59
m59
5:01 PM
Yes, clever observation, but I dealt with that too.
Both of you claim that nothing is true.
Only perceived to be.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
That's the point of scientific and philosophical inquiry to get as good of an idea as possible about the universe.
 
m59
m59
I hear lots of assumptions.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Which assumptions?
 
m59
m59
I actually don't have much time, so I need to just respond to what's been said... I'll try to tackle that really quick and then I really have to go.
For example, you say "children aren't evil or good, they just are, and they should push the boundaries to figure it out."
Is it ok for them to do so?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
It's necessary
 
m59
m59
5:04 PM
How do you know?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
It's the way they learn about the universe (their environment).
 
m59
m59
How do you know?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Observation
And the observations of generations of humans
 
m59
m59
So, we're going to go from A-n and no-one every answers my question when we get far enough.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Because the only answer you'll be happy with is "God"
 
m59
m59
5:06 PM
Recall that Benji said "because evolution", then wouldn't give me a reason it mattered, then said I was too stupid to know better and left.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@fredsbend Minimize pain / Maximize benefit.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
3 hours ago, by TRiG
in The Upper Room, Oct 4 '11 at 19:02, by TRiG
I'm not sure that intrinsically good is a useful, or even meaningful, measure. I'd go with intrinsically valuable. Humans are valuable (to humans, which is what we are). Hence we should seek to minimise pain. And there's the basic foundation of a consistent ethical system.
 
TRiG
TRiG
You're right that these are very closely related; maybe even the same thing.
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal you are correct, but that's because there is no other reason. There is not one way to found logic, morality, or induction outside of the 2 possibilities I gave and those are or require God.
If you have one, I welcome it.
Logic can't found itself. If so, show me.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
The problem is that I don't know. Humanity, outside of Religion, does not know.
 
m59
m59
5:07 PM
@RyanKinal how do you know we don't know.
 
TRiG
TRiG
in The Upper Room, Jun 22 '13 at 21:12, by TRiG
Seriously, I do have ethical principles by which I fail to live (of course). But I don't associate them with anything divine.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
What is the foundation for God? God cannot found itself, so show me.
 
m59
m59
I know, so that just fell apart pretty bad.
@RyanKinal Oh, he sure can.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Then why can't logic?
Why can't the universe?
 
m59
m59
Logic could found itself (since God is Logic), if it were also powerful and had a will.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:08 PM
Why can't whatever came before the universe be a foundation?
Why does it need will?
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal how would you know about it (your own reasoning confirmed the problem)?
you're an imperfect being with limited knowledge.
No God = no knowledge, only conjecture.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Yes! But, as a whole, humanity has infinite knowledge.
 
m59
m59
How do you know?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Because I can see the progress. I can see the curve of human knowledge accelerating through the past, and extrapolate that into the future.
As a species, we make utterly brilliant discoveries on a near-daily basis.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@m59 I've seen this argument tried a few times, and it's never managed to convince me, or even make much sense to me. The religious person chips away at the basis of logic, reasoning, and/or epistomology, and the problems the religious person discusses are real. Yes, granted. In stage two, the religious person asserts, with much handwaving, that these problems can be solved by asserting or assuming a deity. That's where they lose me.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:10 PM
^ exactly
 
m59
m59
@TRiG again, no offense, but this coming from a person who recognizes the epistomological problem that they don't know anything.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM
 
TRiG
TRiG
@m59 "Knowledge is merely opinion," she asserts over her cabernet sauvignon.
 
m59
m59
The problem is that if you don't start your thinking with God, you will claim that you don't know anything and that there's no actual right and wrong, and that you have no idea whether the future will be like the past, then you'll go on writing code and being mad when people hurt your family.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
I do know things. But I'm accepting of the fact that my knowledge is imperfect. I accept that, some day, someone may explain gravity differently than how it has ever been explained before.
 
m59
m59
5:12 PM
What's wrong with stardust crashing into stardust?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
On a universal level, nothing
 
m59
m59
Assumption: things matter because I say they matter
 
TRiG
TRiG
@m59 Meanwhile, if you do start your thinking with God, you can assert anything. The fact that you're more confident about your beliefs doesn't make them more accurate. In fact, possibly the opposite.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
NO
Things matter because humanity says they matter
 
m59
m59
@TRiG did you use logic to say so?
@RyanKinal you're the only person left after Hitler wins WWII. It's perfectly fine that they off you too, then everything they did was good.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:14 PM
You're misrepresenting my arguments. Consistently and repeatedly.
 
m59
m59
Insanity.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@m59 From a certain point of view, sure.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
@m59 "No God = no knowledge". Says you.
 
m59
m59
Yeah ^
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Prove it
 
m59
m59
5:14 PM
Do you know anything @Cerbrus ?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
I know plenty
For instance, how to type
 
m59
m59
(remember, I'm arguing over what you "claim". You all know who God is, and you suppress that truth. I just want to point out that you're lying)
@Cerbrus how do you know you know?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
'Cause I'm doing it.
 
m59
m59
How do you know?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
It is by my will that these keys are being pressed
 
m59
m59
5:16 PM
and you know that by ______
 
TRiG
TRiG
@Cerbrus I'm okay with the "no knowledge" part. No certain knowledge, anyway. There are many things which seem to be probably true, but I cannot fully discount the possibility that I'm a brain in a jar. Cogito ergo sum and all that. I just fail to understand how asserting a deity actually helps, here.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
So, you've called me an uneducated, lying, uncaring, evil person. I think I'm done "discussing" with you.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Okay, let's ask you this:
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal I included myself in that. I think you're probably smarter and more talented than I am. Jesus is the only difference.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
How can you be so certain "god = knowledge"?
Well?
How do you know?
 
m59
m59
5:18 PM
@RyanKinal I am saying you're awesome and have object meaning and wonder about you. The only reason I have anything to say is because it hurts me greatly to see God's amazing creations, capable of vast wonders, speaking insanity. You can be offended if you want, but the only reason for you to be so, is if you don't understand or don't want to understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it.
 
TRiG
TRiG
And as I referenced Descartes above, it occurred to me that he too used the concept of a deity to climb out of that hole, so @m59 is following a long tradition here. I still don't understand the reasoning, though.
 
m59
m59
@Cerbrus I know because I have no choice, just like you
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
And you know that by ______?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@m59 Really?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
The same b-s questions you ask me, I can ask you
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:19 PM
20 hours ago, by m59
I hear "I know nothing!" presented in the guise of education.
 
m59
m59
I explained this above 3 times (one recent, I see no reason to repeat it.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
And you have no answer
 
m59
m59
@Cerbrus fine, once again
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
20 hours ago, by m59
I hear "there are no morals!" presented in the guise of caring.
 
m59
m59
A: I know logic
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
5:19 PM
How do you know?
 
TRiG
TRiG
@m59 Okay. Now you're becoming both boring and insulting. "Anyone who disagrees with me must be misunderstanding me." Psaw! Arrogant, too. Would you stop and listen to yourself?
 
m59
m59
I didn't say that.
I said the only reason you would take offense.
B: there are only two ways to know something - to know everything or to have been told by someone that knows everything and with such power that the person can't be mistaken
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
^ disagree
 
m59
m59
C: I don't know everything, so I have been told by someone that does and in such a way that is unmistakable.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Assumption
 
m59
m59
5:21 PM
@RyanKinal it's fine to disagree, but I can give reasons that no one else can.
 
TRiG
TRiG
*blink* That just doesn't make sense.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
And how do you know you don't know everything?
You can't know what you don't know
 
m59
m59
Because it has been revealed to me, as I said.
Right, I know what has been revealed to me unmistakably, and anything I can confer from that (using the logic that was revealed)
true === true
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
geez, you're infuriating
 
m59
m59
because logic
because god
What have I done that warrants anger?
 
TRiG
TRiG
5:22 PM
@m59 Heh. And this is where it all breaks down.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
If you can't see that...
Wow
 
m59
m59
@Cerbrus do you know anything?
Notice you stopped answering my questions, like everyone does.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Again with the bs question
 
m59
m59
lol.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@m59 Misrepresentation of others' ideas. Attacks on intelligence and morality of others.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
5:23 PM
You didn't even answer that exact question
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal no, I KNOW you all know things and are moral.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Well, you sorta did
"I know because god", basically
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal please man, before we discussed anything even in the javascript room, I stated clearly my stance on that, and that I was laying that out so as not to be accused otherwise - and hear you are accusing me of it.
@Cerbrus that's fine by me, honestly. The discussion has been "give me a reason". I never even required someone's logic to be sound.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Logic doesn't have to be sound?
wat
Doesn't "logic" imply reasoning? A -> B?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Because that's the way I've seen you represent yourself. You say, literally, that I don't know anything. You imply that I am uncaring and evil.
 
m59
m59
5:26 PM
@Cerbrus oh, yes, it does, but why worry about it if I can give a foundation to what I say and do, and you only infinitely regress?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Oh, I'm regressing
Sure
 
TRiG
TRiG
So what @m59 is basically saying is No one can possibly truly know anything, because we cannot trust that our senses are giving us an accurate picture of reality. Except me, because I heard voices in my head, and for magical reasons I know those are reliable, so i have the actual truth. This is even less persuasive than the argument I thought he was leading to.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Based on my own viewpoint - one in which those are weaknesses I can overcome without supernatural help - those are insults.
Please, respect my viewpoint even if you don't agree with it.
I respect that your knowledge comes from God, even if I don't agree with it.
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal no Ryan, I have to keep saying this - first, we're all uncaring and evil, but by God's grace we do good things. I am saying that by your claims, your use of logic and morality are not valid. That's by your claims.
In other words, you're inconsistent.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Yea, I'm not uncaring or evil
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:28 PM
That's by your incorrect interpretation of my claims.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
And that has nothing to do with religion
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal if so, then please A-n, lets find out how you know anything
@RyanKinal I never said "heard voices" or any such thing
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
No, you just know
 
m59
m59
Yes, just like you do.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
... when did voices come into this?
 
m59
m59
5:30 PM
Which is why you refuse to give up logic, and hold me accountable to it.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@RyanKinal That was me. Sorry.
 
m59
m59
So, that was @TRiG
We all KNOW logic. If you say you don't, you're lying, and I find that easy to prove.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
There's something we can agree on
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
A: I use logic to come to conclusions
B: I can use logic because it is consistent with the laws of the universe
C: The laws of the universe are valid because the universe is everything
End. Fin. Done.
 
m59
m59
What is the reason you accept C?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
5:31 PM
@RyanKinal: How do you know?
 
TRiG
TRiG
@m59 We all know Euclidian geometry too, in the sense that it makes instinctive sense to us. That doesn't mean it's an accurate description of the universe in which we live.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Sorry, wrong side of the fence :P
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@m59 Because the universe is everything.
 
m59
m59
See, nothing about C can cause you to not be mistaken (you admitted that you're just an imperfect being)
That's still C
I want D
 
TRiG
TRiG
I have difficulty understanding that any intelligent person believes in God. However, I know that many do, whether or not I understand it. My failure to understand what's going on inside other people's heads is my problem, not theirs. I try my best not to take my lack of understanding and use it as a projection of what other people "really" believe.

If someone says they believe something, do them the courtesy of accepting that they actually do believe it, unless you have very good reason to think otherwise.
 
m59
m59
5:32 PM
(someone's going to quote that inappropraitely later xD )
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
There is no D
 
m59
m59
Then you just assume C for no reason and could be totally wrong
 
TRiG
TRiG
@RyanKinal It's a sad world.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Ugh, I'm off for dinner.
 
m59
m59
therefore, you don't know anything according to you
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
5:33 PM
> Then you just assume C for no reason and could be totally wrong
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@TRiG Truth ;-)
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
That works for "god" too
 
m59
m59
@Cerbrus it doesn't
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Seriously, screw this conversation
 
m59
m59
care to try me again?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
5:33 PM
Yea it does
Nah, dinner.
You're not going to agree any way
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
You're allowed to say "God because God", but I'm not allowed to say "Universe because universe"?
4
 
TRiG
TRiG
@RyanKinal Yeah. I actually think this sort of conversation can be useful, but @m59 is not the best proponent of his own ideas, and this is becoming frustrating.
 
m59
m59
Because what I described as God gave details that ended my regression.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
The universe is everything, It defines all physical laws. It does not need a creator, nor does it need free will in order to enact these laws or bring forth the mysteries which it has wrought.
^ better?
 
m59
m59
How do you know logic from that?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:36 PM
It has been revealed to me through the laws of the universe.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@RyanKinal I'm not entirely comfortable with that formulation, but it's miles better than anything @m59 has come up with.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Yeah, I'm not either. And it's pretty much exactly what @m59 has said about logic through God.
 
m59
m59
@RyanKinal what about laws of the universe can inform you of something such that you can't be mistaken?
@RyanKinal do you mean that the laws informed you via some unknown mechanism, but that it causes people to not be mistaken, or do you mean via your observation?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
What, exactly, is so wrong about being mistaken?
Why do you have such a hard time with the acceptance that my basis for truth is imperfect?
 
m59
m59
It's my hope that the A-n process would show you that (according to what you "say") you have no basis on which to claim any kind of knowledge.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:41 PM
But I do. The laws of the universe, as understood for humanity, are an excellent basis for knowledge.
 
m59
m59
How do you know?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Because they have, time and again, been proven to be consistent.
 
m59
m59
How do you know ^
 
TRiG
TRiG
Anyway, I have work to do. I may pop back in here some time tomorrow. Then again, I may not. Will probably respond to pings, though, if anyone feels the need.
 
m59
m59
@TRiG thanks for hanging out
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:43 PM
Because of logic, and the combined observation of generations of humans.
 
m59
m59
how do you know logic?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Through the laws of the universe
 
m59
m59
how do you know those?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Through logic, and the combined observation of generations of humans.
 
m59
m59
how do you know logic?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:44 PM
(etc. etc.)
 
m59
m59
looks like we'll be asking questions for a while.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
I have no issue with the circularity of this argument.
 
m59
m59
then God because God.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Yes! Great!
Go for it! But you're using my circularity to disprove my argument, while you're using it prove yours.
 
m59
m59
Nope.
My reasoning isn't circular.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:46 PM
We're just circling different things.
 
m59
m59
"God because God" was your argument. I was just pointing that out.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
A: Logic
B: God
C: ... God?
 
m59
m59
or to be clear, you're saying "I know logic because I know logic"
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
True
 
m59
m59
and I'm saying "I know God because God"
that's a sharp difference.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:47 PM
Is it?
 
m59
m59
not "I know God because I know God" yes, very sharp.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
So, you know God because God. But in what basis is God founded?
Where does God come from?
 
m59
m59
There's no need for me to know such things (while I have great answers)
The point of our discussion is that I can justify my use of logic.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
As can I
 
m59
m59
Circularity is not justified.
You can't even complete the process of trying.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:49 PM
I don't see the problem with circularity.
 
m59
m59
You said logic is the foundation for the rest of your thinking
I asked how you know logic, you said logic, so I'd have to ask again
a circular foundation is just an infinite regress as any other thing you might posit
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
My basis for knowledge is ever-increasing. Every advance in my understanding of the universe allows me to better use logic to advance my understanding of the universe.
 
m59
m59
it fails to give a reason for anything because the chain of unknowing can't be stopped.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
@m59 And by saying "I have no need to know such things", you've simply avoided the question.
 
m59
m59
What?!
The question is how we found logic!
I have a source which can sufficiently know it and share it.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
5:51 PM
I do too! It's the universe!
 
m59
m59
So, then tell me again how the universe can sufficiently know and share logic.
such that you can't be mistaken.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
It doesn't have to
And I can be mistaken
 
m59
m59
Are you mistaken about the validity of logic?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
4 mins ago, by m59
There's no need for me to know such things (while I have great answers)
Then why do we need to prove logic through the universe?
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
I may be mistaken about my understanding of logic. But as I currently understand it, I am not mistaken in its validity.
 
m59
m59
5:53 PM
@RyanKinal how do you know?
@Cerbrus It's clear that's in reference to a different topic.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
[insert circular argument with which I have no problem here]
 
m59
m59
Infinite regress = you don't know anything - you can't even stop asking the question of whether or not you know.
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
No!
Infinite regress means there are things I don't know.
And isn't it entirely admirable to never stop asking the question of whether or not I know? Isn't that what we've been doing throughout the entirety of human history?
 
m59
m59
Asking whether or not we know something depends on logic
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
I sincerely hope I never stop questioning my knowledge. The world would then become entirely boring.
Asking whether or not we know something depends on our understanding of logic.
 
m59
m59
5:55 PM
I mean, there's nothing I can say if you'll just make an exception and accept circular reasoning.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Circular reasoning is better than none at all...
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
And there's nothing I can say if you'll just make up God and call it done.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
^
 
Ryan Kinal
Ryan Kinal
Strange loop
A strange loop arises when, by moving only upwards or downwards through a hierarchical system, one finds oneself back where one started. Strange loops may involve self-reference and paradox. The concept of a strange loop was proposed and extensively discussed by Douglas Hofstadter in Gödel, Escher, Bach, and is further elaborated in Hofstadter's book I Am a Strange Loop, published in 2007. A tangled hierarchy is a hierarchical consciousness system in which a strange loop appears. == Definitions == A strange loop is a hierarchy of levels, each of which is linked to at least one other by some type...
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
That is what's so frustrating to me
"because god"
It's an assumption at best
 
m59
m59
5:57 PM
I said there's only 2 ways to know anything without doubt and that's to know everything or be told by someone that does and in such a way that is unmistakable.
I don't know everything, so I must have been told.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
There is no logic in saying "because god"
 
m59
m59
that's a foundation and it's not circular.
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
That's an assumption
 
m59
m59
Where's the assumption?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
"so I must have been told."
 
m59
m59
5:58 PM
Got any other options?
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
Okay: you know a car can take you from point A->B
Right?
 
m59
m59
sure
 
Cerbrus
Cerbrus
But do you know the chemical reaction occurring in the engine?
 
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