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12:26 AM
Only one before I left, and I'm not sure it's good.
光・電気・ライト
Or correct.
魂・ソール・精神?
 
1:04 AM
好き・愛・ラブ?
 
1:47 AM
How about:
剣(けん)・剣(つるぎ)・ソード
Although again those aren't all equally common
But it's not like any of them is a rare word :-)
 
Haha, the same character?
つるぎ? I've never heard that.
 
2:18 AM
@Anthony It's not as common as けん but you will surely eventually hear it
 
3:15 AM
I see.
Why do dictionaries use sama? I looked up とぼとぼ歩く and at the end of the explanation is says ~さま.
 
3:31 AM
@Anthony Because it's an adverb expressing the way in which the following verb takes place
Look up さま in a monolingual dictionary
 
3:56 AM
Oh. Is it still 様?
 
@Anthony Yes
Think of the suffix 様 as the derived meaning
 
How did that come to be?
 
4:15 AM
Presumably adding 様 to a name was a way of adding indirectness
Indirectness is a way to make something more polite
 
Hmm.
I see.
 
(Think of addressing a king as 陛下)
 
I don't know that word. :P
 
陛下(へいか)
 
Why is that indirect?
 
4:17 AM
> 〔「陛(階段)」の下の近臣を通して奏上する意〕
So 様 was presumably taken literally at first, then was grammaticalized as an honorific suffix
Then the final vowel wore off and さま became さん
And さん became ちゃん
 
Wowzah.
I'm having difficulty parsing that weblio link. First, why is it written 陛(階段)
?
 
The part in parentheses is a gloss to tell you the general meaning
 
I see.
Also why does 奏上 use 奏でるの奏...?
 
@Anthony One of the meanings of 奏 is 申し上げる
 
Woooah.
 
4:26 AM
A lot of kanji have less common senses that you'll run into
 
That's a cool second meaning.
 
If you have a 漢和辞典 it will help you sort those out :-)
 
「陛(階段)」の下の近臣を通して奏上する意

So is that like... passing through the attendant under the stairs to talk up to.... thing? So weird.
 
> 奏
> (1)目上の人に申し上げる。そうする。もうす。「奏上・伝奏」
> (2)楽器をひく。かなでる。そうする。「奏楽・合奏」
I think it might be the original meaning
 
That's so cool!
 
4:40 AM
@Anthony In ancient China, when you write a letter to someone, you don't start with "To someone", instead, you write "To the someone's servant"... Indeed a weird convention.
 
!!!!
 
 
1 hour later…
5:46 AM
Hah. I never knew that.
 
5:59 AM
@DariusJahandarie Are you there?
 
 
5 hours later…
10:44 AM
非回答者さん wrote a helpful comment, but the answer it's on was deleted, so not everyone can see it anymore: "名 is honorific? According to me, no. It is even used in roll calls in the police and Self-Defense Forces when you yourself are included in the number of those who are present and, therefore, counted in. It is politer and more formal than 人, but it is not honorific."
It seems very common for books to describe 名 as honorific
"Politer and more formal" makes sense and seems to agree with 明鏡国語辞典, too
It makes me wonder if the usage of 名 has shifted at all―is it possible the "honorific" description is out-of-date rather than simply wrong?
Shigeru Miyagawa also called it honorific …
Although he was quoting Downing
Or maybe the authors are using "honorific" as a general term inclusive of polite language
Oh well, a mystery to solve later :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
12:44 PM
this morning I burnt a pot of chicken soup
what a nightmare
the smoky smell stuck onto the range hood
@snailboat the ship might have sailed, but you still got the snailboat
Also, is 致しようがない a more polite version of しかたない?
@非回答者 Regarding this, don't people use お邪魔します too when entering another people's house?
Because you said
> I cannot even think of another phrase that could replace [ごめんください ]
 
1:20 PM
@3to5businessdays Maybe the difference between お邪魔します and ごめんください would make a good question :-)
@3to5businessdays Ohh, I see, you're quoting the dictionary entry
Context helps :-) I'll quote the dictionary entry (大辞林's entry for のみ) here:
> (文末に終助詞的に用いられて)それ以外に致しようがないというような意を込めて,強く言い切る。 「なんとかしてこの苦境を逃れようと,ただあせる-」
In the entry for のみ in 日本国語大辞典 精選版, it says . . .
> 二(終助)強く言い切る漢文訓読で用いられる。
And
> (4)二は、漢文における文末助辞「耳」が限定・決定・強調に用いられ、日本語の副助詞「のみ」の用法に近いため、訓読文において文末の「耳」字を「のみ」と必ず訓じるよ‌​うになり、意味も「限定」という論理性が薄れ、「強く言い切る」という情意性を表わすようになった用法。
So I think that the ② might be a misprint in 大辞林
@3to5businessdays I think しかたない is sort of a lexicalized phrase that has a usage beyond its literal meaning
I think that 致しようがない = しかたがない but I don't think it has that special meaning in that definition
I think it has its literal meaning
And you should understand it as being modified by それ以外に
 
1:52 PM
@3to5businessdays The two expressions are different in meaning and usage. You say お邪魔します to SOMEONE that you have just seen at the door (or heard through the interphone) but you say ごめんください to no one, to the "seemingly empty" house or store. The reason you say is because you see no one in sight and want to find out if someone is there.
 
 
5 hours later…
6:59 PM
I think すみません〜 may fill the same function as ごめんください for talking to the empty house
iirc in tokyo those pesky solicitors would use those two to try to get you to answer the door after ringing
 
7:55 PM
@jlptnone Hey!
Are you jlpt none or jlptn one now? :-)
 
@snailboat it's ambiguous!
 
Oh! I was about to type
Or option three, delightfully ambiguous!
 
hehe
 
I'm scared of taking the JLPT!
It's one thing to be bad at Japanese, but it's another thing to wait three months and get a piece of paper saying you're bad at Japanese :-)
But I've got a practice test to do
 
the wait is by far the worst and most sadistic part of the process
 
8:00 PM
They're scantron tests, right?
 
yeah
 
I suppose they have to spend months grading all those scantrons by hand . . .
That must explain it.
 
extactly, can't trust those computers
 
I feel like I've been getting a lot better at Japanese over the last 4 years or so though
Like,
I started re-reading a book I read a couple years ago and it's so much easier now
But at any given time, I don't really feel like I'm making progress
It's just . . . if I compare to a year ago, or two years ago
So when I think of the JLPT, I think
"What if I wait one more year? :-)"
 
there's the plateau effect and diminishing returns as you are pretty advanced in everything for japanese that would make week to week improvement hard to feel
i like the book-difficult measure though
 
8:33 PM
Just for the record: I, as a European, had never heard of PET bottles and cans until I went to Japan where ペットボトル — Janus Bahs Jacquet 24 secs ago
That's right! Where ペットボトル
On other SE sites, if you try to use Japanese input in comments, it catches the enter key and submits it early!
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that problem, although I suppose I shouldn't actually be glad about it ;-)
Just for the record: I, as a European, had never heard of PET bottles and cans until I went to Japan where ペット(ボトル) petto (botoru) is a perfectly normal, colloquial term for them. I had only ever heard them called plastic bottles before. — Janus Bahs Jacquet 1 min ago
Yay, editing!
 
9:19 PM
Hmm. I wonder how related the に in the DSC is to the passive に.
Like, could you gloss "Ken ni eigo ga wakaru koto" as "the fact that English is understandable to Ken"? Does this have to do with middle voice as opposed to intransitivity?
(The fact that potential verbs allow it and the potential morpheme is very closely related to the passive also makes me wonder along the same lines...)
Similarly, you could gloss "Ken ni okane ga hitsuyou na koto" as "the fact that money is necessary to Ken", which is awful in English but still understandable, while *"Ken ni okane ga suki na koto" seems to also be * in English: "the fact that money is liked to Ken"
 
@DariusJahandarie There's a monograph titled Grammar in Use Across Time and Space: Deconstructing the Japanese 'Dative Subject' Construction which takes a diachronic look
I don't have it
Parts are available on Google Books . . . I wonder if it's interesting
There's an online table of contents
Great, available in e-Book format (buy from their e-platform!), all for the low, low price of USD 158.00
 
9:38 PM
Though in my proposed glosses, it seems like the syntax is different from the Japanese: the cataphor in "the fact that his own English is understandable to Ken" does not bind properly, while "Ken ni jibun no eigo ga wakaru" works fine I think.
Haha.
 
Of course, I can just go to the Stanford library, but I wish they'd make this stuff reasonably available
 
Actually, how does 自分 bind in passives?
 
Doesn't Ishizuka talk about that?
 
Not sure, I'll check.
 
Calling it zibun in inimitable linguist fashion
 
10:01 PM
So I guess one question is if the jibun in DSC sentences is acting as an anaphor or logophor. I don't quite understand the logophor bit of things.
That monograph does look quite interesting
 
10:28 PM
"From a spatial to a subjective framework: The semantic and pragmatic change of ni-marked NPs in Japanese discourse" by the same author is also about the DSC, though it does not seem as comprehensive.
 
10:42 PM
The Discourse Function of the Japanese Dative Subject Construction in Written Text looks interesting, too, citing/discussing Sadler's monograph
> After examining texts from classical Japanese as well as spoken and written modern Japanese, Sadler discovered that the DSC occurs differently from text to text. It is hardly used in spoken language, but when it is used it is more likely to be used with third person referents. In written language, the DSC is used with either first-person referents or the main characters of a story who most frequently demonstrate subjective viewpoints. As shown in Ono and Thompson (2003), explicit mention of the first-person referent is not necessary in Japanese spoken discourse, unlike English, where an o
 
11:17 PM
@DariusJahandarie You probably checked a while ago, but I just opened it up and found it under 5.3.2.2 "Ability to Bind zibun"
 
Yeah, I did.
 
@DariusJahandarie A logophoric pronoun is one that refers back from reported speech to the main clause
So it's not relevant in a basic DSC
2
A: Use of 自分を and もらう

snailboatIn a basic sentence, 自分 is a reflexive pronoun which refers back to a subject. It can often be translated with English reflexives like himself or herself. It doesn't necessarily point to the speaker. However, in this case we have 自分 in indirect speech, which is a little different: ルーカスさんi...

Like that
That's what makes the long-distance subjecthood tests ambiguous
@jkerian Don't forget to do the site self-eval! :-)
(We've had 21 people participate this time around!)
 
/me will continue this discussion after his run
 

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