Japanese Language

Anthony

12:26 AM

Only one before I left, and I'm not sure it's good.

光・電気・ライト

Or correct.

魂・ソール・精神？

Anthony

1:04 AM

好き・愛・ラブ?

Anonymous

1:47 AM

How about:

Anonymous

剣（けん）・剣（つるぎ）・ソード

Anonymous

Although again those aren't all equally common

Anonymous

But it's not like any of them is a rare word :-)

Anthony

Haha, the same character?

つるぎ? I've never heard that.

Anonymous

2:18 AM

@Anthony It's not as common as けん but you will surely eventually hear it

Anthony

3:15 AM

I see.

Why do dictionaries use sama? I looked up とぼとぼ歩く and at the end of the explanation is says ~さま.

Anonymous

3:31 AM

@Anthony Because it's an adverb expressing the way in which the following verb takes place

Anonymous

Look up さま in a monolingual dictionary

Anthony

3:56 AM

Oh. Is it still 様？

Anonymous

@Anthony Yes

Anonymous

Think of the suffix 様 as the derived meaning

Anthony

How did that come to be?

Anonymous

4:15 AM

Presumably adding 様 to a name was a way of adding indirectness

Anonymous

Indirectness is a way to make something more polite

Anthony

Hmm.

I see.

Anonymous

(Think of addressing a king as 陛下)

Anthony

I don't know that word. :P

Anonymous

陛下（へいか）

Anthony

4:17 AM

Why is that indirect?

Anonymous

weblio.jp/content/%E9%99%9B%E4%B8%8B

Anonymous

> 〔「陛（階段）」の下の近臣を通して奏上する意〕

Anonymous

So 様 was presumably taken literally at first, then was grammaticalized as an honorific suffix

Anonymous

Then the final vowel wore off and さま became さん

Anonymous

And さん became ちゃん

Anthony

4:19 AM

Wowzah.

I'm having difficulty parsing that weblio link. First, why is it written 陛（階段）

?

Anonymous

The part in parentheses is a gloss to tell you the general meaning

Anthony

I see.

Also why does 奏上　use 奏でるの奏...?

Anonymous

@Anthony One of the meanings of 奏 is 申し上げる

Anthony

Woooah.

Anonymous

A lot of kanji have less common senses that you'll run into

Anthony

4:26 AM

That's a cool second meaning.

Anonymous

If you have a 漢和辞典 it will help you sort those out :-)

Anthony

「陛（階段）」の下の近臣を通して奏上する意

So is that like... passing through the attendant under the stairs to talk up to.... thing? So weird.

Anonymous

> 奏
> (1)目上の人に申し上げる。そうする。もうす。「奏上・伝奏」
> (2)楽器をひく。かなでる。そうする。「奏楽・合奏」

Anonymous

I think it might be the original meaning

Anthony

That's so cool!

Yang Muye

4:40 AM

@Anthony In ancient China, when you write a letter to someone, you don't start with "To someone", instead, you write "To the someone's servant"... Indeed a weird convention.

Anthony

!!!!

Darius Jahandarie

5:46 AM

Hah. I never knew that.

Anthony

5:59 AM

@DariusJahandarie Are you there?

Anonymous

10:44 AM

非回答者さん wrote a helpful comment, but the answer it's on was deleted, so not everyone can see it anymore: "名 is honorific? According to me, no. It is even used in roll calls in the police and Self-Defense Forces when you yourself are included in the number of those who are present and, therefore, counted in. It is politer and more formal than 人, but it is not honorific."

Anonymous

It seems very common for books to describe 名 as honorific

Anonymous

"Politer and more formal" makes sense and seems to agree with 明鏡国語辞典, too

Anonymous

It makes me wonder if the usage of 名 has shifted at all―is it possible the "honorific" description is out-of-date rather than simply wrong?

Anonymous

Shigeru Miyagawa also called it honorific …

Anonymous

Although he was quoting Downing

Anonymous

10:50 AM

Or maybe the authors are using "honorific" as a general term inclusive of polite language

Anonymous

Oh well, a mystery to solve later :-)

3 to 5 business days

12:44 PM

this morning I burnt a pot of chicken soup

what a nightmare

the smoky smell stuck onto the range hood

@snailboat the ship might have sailed, but you still got the snailboat

Also, is 致しようがない a more polite version of しかたない?

@非回答者 Regarding this, don't people use お邪魔します too when entering another people's house?

Because you said

> I cannot even think of another phrase that could replace [ごめんください ]

Anonymous

1:20 PM

@3to5businessdays Maybe the difference between お邪魔します and ごめんください would make a good question :-)

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Ohh, I see, you're quoting the dictionary entry

Anonymous

Context helps :-) I'll quote the dictionary entry (大辞林's entry for のみ) here:

Anonymous

> （文末に終助詞的に用いられて）それ以外に致しようがないというような意を込めて，強く言い切る。「なんとかしてこの苦境を逃れようと，ただあせる－」

Anonymous

In the entry for のみ in 日本国語大辞典精選版, it says . . .

Anonymous

> 二（終助）強く言い切る漢文訓読で用いられる。

Anonymous

1:29 PM

And

Anonymous

> (4)二は、漢文における文末助辞「耳」が限定・決定・強調に用いられ、日本語の副助詞「のみ」の用法に近いため、訓読文において文末の「耳」字を「のみ」と必ず訓じるよ‌うになり、意味も「限定」という論理性が薄れ、「強く言い切る」という情意性を表わすようになった用法。

Anonymous

So I think that the ② might be a misprint in 大辞林

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays I think しかたない is sort of a lexicalized phrase that has a usage beyond its literal meaning

Anonymous

I think that 致しようがない＝しかたがない but I don't think it has that special meaning in that definition

Anonymous

I think it has its literal meaning

Anonymous

1:36 PM

And you should understand it as being modified by それ以外に

非回答者

1:52 PM

@3to5businessdays The two expressions are different in meaning and usage. You say お邪魔します to SOMEONE that you have just seen at the door (or heard through the interphone) but you say ごめんください to no one, to the "seemingly empty" house or store. The reason you say is because you see no one in sight and want to find out if someone is there.

jlptnone

6:59 PM

I think すみません〜 may fill the same function as ごめんください　for talking to the empty house

iirc in tokyo those pesky solicitors would use those two to try to get you to answer the door after ringing

Anonymous

7:55 PM

@jlptnone Hey!

Anonymous

Are you jlpt none or jlptn one now? :-)

jlptnone

@snailboat it's ambiguous!

Anonymous

Oh! I was about to type

Anonymous

Or option three, delightfully ambiguous!

jlptnone

hehe

Anonymous

7:58 PM

I'm scared of taking the JLPT!

Anonymous

It's one thing to be bad at Japanese, but it's another thing to wait three months and get a piece of paper saying you're bad at Japanese :-)

Anonymous

But I've got a practice test to do

jlptnone

the wait is by far the worst and most sadistic part of the process

Anonymous

They're scantron tests, right?

jlptnone

yeah

Anonymous

8:00 PM

I suppose they have to spend months grading all those scantrons by hand . . .

Anonymous

That must explain it.

jlptnone

extactly, can't trust those computers

Anonymous

I feel like I've been getting a lot better at Japanese over the last 4 years or so though

Anonymous

Like,

Anonymous

I started re-reading a book I read a couple years ago and it's so much easier now

Anonymous

8:02 PM

But at any given time, I don't really feel like I'm making progress

Anonymous

It's just . . . if I compare to a year ago, or two years ago

Anonymous

So when I think of the JLPT, I think

Anonymous

"What if I wait one more year? :-)"

jlptnone

there's the plateau effect and diminishing returns as you are pretty advanced in everything for japanese that would make week to week improvement hard to feel

i like the book-difficult measure though

Anonymous

8:33 PM

Just for the record: I, as a European, had never heard of PET bottles and cans until I went to Japan where ペットボトル — Janus Bahs Jacquet 24 secs ago

Anonymous

That's right! Where ペットボトル

Anonymous

On other SE sites, if you try to use Japanese input in comments, it catches the enter key and submits it early!

Anonymous

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that problem, although I suppose I shouldn't actually be glad about it ;-)

Anonymous

Just for the record: I, as a European, had never heard of PET bottles and cans until I went to Japan where ペット(ボトル) petto (botoru) is a perfectly normal, colloquial term for them. I had only ever heard them called plastic bottles before. — Janus Bahs Jacquet 1 min ago

Anonymous

Yay, editing!

Darius Jahandarie

9:19 PM

Hmm. I wonder how related the に in the DSC is to the passive に.

Like, could you gloss "Ken ni eigo ga wakaru koto" as "the fact that English is understandable to Ken"? Does this have to do with middle voice as opposed to intransitivity?

(The fact that potential verbs allow it and the potential morpheme is very closely related to the passive also makes me wonder along the same lines...)

Similarly, you could gloss "Ken ni okane ga hitsuyou na koto" as "the fact that money is necessary to Ken", which is awful in English but still understandable, while *"Ken ni okane ga suki na koto" seems to also be * in English: "the fact that money is liked to Ken"

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie There's a monograph titled Grammar in Use Across Time and Space: Deconstructing the Japanese 'Dative Subject' Construction which takes a diachronic look

Anonymous

I don't have it

Anonymous

Parts are available on Google Books . . . I wonder if it's interesting

Anonymous

There's an online table of contents

Anonymous

9:38 PM

Great, available in e-Book format (buy from their e-platform!), all for the low, low price of USD 158.00

Darius Jahandarie

Though in my proposed glosses, it seems like the syntax is different from the Japanese: the cataphor in "the fact that his own English is understandable to Ken" does not bind properly, while "Ken ni jibun no eigo ga wakaru" works fine I think.

Haha.

Anonymous

Of course, I can just go to the Stanford library, but I wish they'd make this stuff reasonably available

Darius Jahandarie

Actually, how does 自分 bind in passives?

Anonymous

Doesn't Ishizuka talk about that?

Darius Jahandarie

Not sure, I'll check.

Anonymous

9:41 PM

Calling it zibun in inimitable linguist fashion

Darius Jahandarie

10:01 PM

So I guess one question is if the jibun in DSC sentences is acting as an anaphor or logophor. I don't quite understand the logophor bit of things.

That monograph does look quite interesting

Darius Jahandarie

10:28 PM

"From a spatial to a subjective framework: The semantic and pragmatic change of ni-marked NPs in Japanese discourse" by the same author is also about the DSC, though it does not seem as comprehensive.

Anonymous

10:42 PM

The Discourse Function of the Japanese Dative Subject Construction in Written Text looks interesting, too, citing/discussing Sadler's monograph

Anonymous

> After examining texts from classical Japanese as well as spoken and written modern Japanese, Sadler discovered that the DSC occurs differently from text to text. It is hardly used in spoken language, but when it is used it is more likely to be used with third person referents. In written language, the DSC is used with either first-person referents or the main characters of a story who most frequently demonstrate subjective viewpoints. As shown in Ono and Thompson (2003), explicit mention of the first-person referent is not necessary in Japanese spoken discourse, unlike English, where an o…

Anonymous

11:17 PM

@DariusJahandarie You probably checked a while ago, but I just opened it up and found it under 5.3.2.2 "Ability to Bind zibun"

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, I did.

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie A logophoric pronoun is one that refers back from reported speech to the main clause

Anonymous

So it's not relevant in a basic DSC

Anonymous

2

A: Use of 自分を and もらう

In a basic sentence, 自分 is a reflexive pronoun which refers back to a subject. It can often be translated with English reflexives like himself or herself. It doesn't necessarily point to the speaker. However, in this case we have 自分 in indirect speech, which is a little different: ルーカスさんi...

Anonymous

Like that

Anonymous

11:19 PM

That's what makes the long-distance subjecthood tests ambiguous

Anonymous

@jkerian Don't forget to do the site self-eval! :-)

Anonymous

(We've had 21 people participate this time around!)

Darius Jahandarie

/me will continue this discussion after his run

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