English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:00 PM

@Cerberus yeah AFAIK we colonized it

same with the Falklands

@Jez Umm, actually, Spanish is spoken about as much as English, the culture is also hugely influenced by Spain, geography goes without saying, the politics are identical anyway, and the religion is Catholic, unlike the UK. So I don't see how you can support it.

@Cerberus Of course not.

@Jez what, did you think it was empty until you got there?

Jez

@terdon either that or the Moors had it? dont know

Cerberus

Rank Origin Proportion (%) of family names
on 1995 electoral register[5]
1 British 27%
2 Spanish (excluding Minorcan) 24%
3 Italian 19%
4 Portuguese 11%
5 Maltese 8%
6 Jewish 3%
7 Minorcan 2%
8 Other 4%
9 Unassigned 2%

Jez

speaking of the Moors, when are Spain gonna give back their land to the Muslims ;-)

terdon

@Jez Come on, people have been living there since long before the Moors came along. Then yes, it was the Moors, then the Spanish and then it was occupied by the British.

Jez

3:03 PM

@terdon and now it's culturally, economically, politically, and linguistically british (bilingual but English is the main language)

I know Tony Blair just liked to give away territory, but I aint Blair :-)

Cerberus

> Most locals are bilingual, also speaking Spanish, due to Gibraltar's proximity to Spain. Most Gibraltarians converse in Llanito, their vernacular, which is mostly based on Andalusian Spanish, but greatly influenced by other Mediterranean languages.

Jez

it seems to me that giving Gibraltar away instead of defending it is just lazy, and a dereliction of duty to your citizens

Cerberus

Gibraltar clearly wants to remain British.

But what if it voted to joing Spain?

Jez

@Cerberus I read "Gibraltarians often converse in Llanito"

not "most Gibraltans"

Cerberus

This is from Wikipaedia.

Jez

3:07 PM

@Cerberus well if it voted to join Spain, i would concede that there are less things tying it to Britain than there are with Scotland.

terdon

They speak Spanish, they share the Spanish religion, they share the Spanish peninsula. The only argument for keeping it British is that they want to be British. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the only valid argument possible.

Cerberus

> Llanito (pronounced [ʎaˈnito]) is the main local vernacular, and is unique to Gibraltar. It consists of an eclectic mix of Andalusian Spanish and British English, as well as languages such as Maltese, Portuguese, Italian of the Genoese variety and Haketia.

Andalusian Spanish is the main constituent of Llanito, but is also heavily influenced by British English. However, it borrows words and expressions of many other languages, with over 500 words of Genoese and Hebrew origin. It also typically involves code-switching to English.

Jez

@terdon they mainly speak English, they use English currency, the have English culture

so there are a few more things.

user08742

newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/08/…

What is this poem's meaning?

terdon

@Jez Defend your claim about "English Culture". Also note the interesting use of English rather than British which demolishes all of your previous points.

Cerberus

3:08 PM

> While the primary language of Gibraltarians is a mix of Spanish and Andalusian known as Llanito or Yanito, Gibraltarian English is becoming more prominent, and there has been a theory proposed that this variety of English is becoming "nativized".

Jez

@terdon I meant British currency and British culture. slip of the tongue

as for the culture, well, i wouldnt be surprised if they like a good fry up for breakfast

sunday dinner?

common law?

terdon

Sunday dinner is not British! Good grief!

Jez

isnt it? hmm.

terdon

Not even close.

Jez

not even roast beef with gravy, veggies, potatoes, etc

terdon

3:11 PM

It is common in every country I've ever lived in for example.

Jez

cooked breakfast

user08742

@terdon what do you think? that poem

Jez

but yeah, Gibraltar's an interesting one and i think an independence referendum there would be more defensible than a Scottish one.

i'm not really denying that.

terdon

Fair enough then.

Jez

i think it would be a shame if they wanted to join bloody Spain though.

terdon

3:13 PM

@user08742 No idea whatsoever.

Jez

and, heh, they wouldnt get their independence back ever again after that. The spanish govt. won't allow independence for anywhere

not anywhere on their contiguous territory anyway

terdon

@Jez See bloody. Why bloody? What's wrong with Spain? How is it worse than the UK? Having lived in both countries for several years I certainly prefer Spain hands down over the UK.

@Jez Which is exactly what you espouse.

user08742

i see

Jez

@terdon Spain has a history of slaughtering massive numbers of American natives (even compared to Britain). AFAIK they have never really apologized for it.

user08742

somebody help me

Jez

3:14 PM

i just think they're pretty arrogant for that

terdon

@Jez So does the UK. They also have a history of making the largest nation in the world into opium addicts to line their pockets.

Jez

@terdon yeah. im just noting that that may be one reason Gibraltar doesnt want a referendum on independence :-)

terdon

Let alone the hundreds of little wars and massacres the British have committed over the years.

Jez

@terdon we've been a lot more gracious in allowing independence for pretty much anyone who asks, even without a fight in most cases

and did we kill as many natives? i think not

terdon

@Jez Yes, that is true.

@Jez Are you kidding?

Jez

3:16 PM

the Spanish extirpated many American civilizations

after disgusting slavery and torture

terdon

Umm, so did the brits in fact. But never mind that, look at Africa, India, Asia. You name it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Please. The slave trade in the US started when the US was British.

Jez

the Africans we "extirpated" are still around.... so we didn't

terdon

Very few countries in the world, if indeed any, have killed more than the British.

Jez

that's why they are independent nations of Africans, and not white Europeans

on the other hand, south american nations are mostly of Spanish origin

terdon

3:17 PM

@Jez So there were no Indians in the northern part of the continent?

Jez

and central american

@terdon as i said, we didnt kill as many

like the whole aztec civilization

terdon

@Jez Back up your claims.

Jez

but yeah it sucks that will did kill the ones we did

terdon

What happened to the Apache? Or the Navajo? Or the hundreds of others whose names I don't know?

Jez

there were just more natives living in central and south america, and their cultures were more advanced

Spain killed and looted them en masse. it's sickening to think about

terdon

3:19 PM

Yes it is. But no more so than the many British atrocities.

Jez

really, the Brits got into the Americas colonization game quite late compared to the Spanish

terdon

British war crimes

British war crimes are acts that have breached the laws of war, committed by the armed forces of the United Kingdom, since the establishment of the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 to the present day, during armed conflict. Actions labeled as war crimes range from independent actions of individual soldiers, such as the abuse of prisoners during the Iraq War, to controversial and debated officially sanctioned actions such as the bombing of Dresden in 1945. War crimes in the modern sense are acts committed during an armed conflict that violates the laws and customs of war (established by the Hague...

> In 1664, England also took over the Dutch colony of New Netherland, (including the New Amsterdam settlement), which England renamed the Province of New York. With New Netherland, the English also came to control the former New Sweden (in what is now Delaware), which the Dutch had conquered earlier. This later became part of Pennsylvania after it was established in 1680.

Jez

anyway, why do you like Spain so much when they oppress these self-determination movements? shouldnt you think of them as evil imperialists?

the Basques, the Catalans

the Spanish strongly criticized the Scottish referendum's being held

user08742

@MattЭллен could you help me with this poem?

terdon

@Jez I never said I like the government much. In fact I always used the UK model as an example of how it should be done. I just don't refer to bloody England despite how uncomfortable I felt living there.