English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

5:00 PM

The team is here to help you. The team of experts is here to help you. A team of experts are helping our user group.

Kabir101

I buy your point @KitFox

KitFox

The individual expert is trained.

I'm thinking out loud.

It's the who, I think, that really pushes me to use are there.

A team of [experts who are trained]

And not [a team of experts] who is trained.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> a team of experts who are trained

I think, in that case, I'd always use are.

There was a question about that too

Matt Эллен

An expert team

are on their way

An expert team

is on their way

KitFox

a crack commando unit was sent to prison

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:04 PM

@MattЭллен its way

Matt Эллен

singular they

because people

but its is fine too

KitFox

@Mr.Shiny you speak French.

Can you translate the incoming question?

0

Q: L'equivalent de diplome baccalauréat chez les "anglo-american education System"

Dans la vie professionnelle , on a besoin de savoir le lexique des anglos pour exprimer notre niveau educationnel. Comme vous saviez , baccalauréat est La fin de l'enseignement secondaire . Chez l'americain , Est elle appelee : Bachelor degree ou high school diploma ou Another thing..

professions

They migrated it but forgot to translate it first.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That was the last of it. Good-bye, Cream.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен srsly? I would never use that that way.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but you prefer who over that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:11 PM

@MattЭллен um. I'm not sure. I guess if I am referring to a team, singular, then I'd say "a team that is doing its thing", but if I am referring to a team of people, plural, then "a team who are doing their thing"

Matt Эллен

fair enough

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox your edit is fine

KitFox

Oh, so my French is not too rusty then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I don't think I would use singular they with a team. The team is either a neuter entity (singluar) or various people (plural).

KitFox

l'enseignement secondaire, though, is that high school?

Secondary school?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:13 PM

@KitFox yes. but it depends on what system you mean.

KitFox

I'll leave it then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Is "what do you call a certain level of education in a particular place " on topic?

KitFox

I don't know. Sort of.

What do you call a person who has set another person on fire is on-topic, so...

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: Everyone should try to dance Or at least have a bit of a prance Jig like you’re hip Or mayb…

posted on June 13, 2014 by sgdi

Everyone should try to dance Or at least have a bit of a prance Jig like you’re hip Or maybe just skip Don’t sit still like you’re stuck in a trance

KitFox

What is the verb for when a meteorite strikes your car while you're driving it to your mother's house with murderous intent is on-topic.

Might as well let "what do you call the thing you get at the end of high school" ride.

Cerberus

5:19 PM

I didn't get anything.

Except a diploma.

Which literally means "a thing doubled".

Kabir101

A passing certificate and a permit to enter a college.

Cerberus

You get a special permit?

Kabir101

I got it when I entered.

Cerberus

The passing certificate isn't also your permit?

Ah, you got it from your university.

Kabir101

yes

Matt Эллен

5:23 PM

at the end of GCSEs we just get a bunch of certificates for the various subjects, awarded by examining bodies. There's isn't a diploma given by the school.

Same at the end of A-Levels

Kabir101

Can I say: 'I am swamped with work' to 'I am swamped'?

KitFox

Yes.

Both.

Kabir101

ok

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I got a high school diploma and a transcript. The transcript is what the universities care about; they map the grades you receive to the estimated true grade by virtue of a function which adjusts for your high school's historical performance.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmmm it could be that the diploma my school gave me was officially given out by the state.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So universities care about what grades you got in high school?

I don't think they have that in England?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:32 PM

@Cerberus yes. We don't have standardized testing.

your high-school transcript is all you have.

Cerberus

I see.

Mitch

@KitFox That happens to me all the time.

Cerberus

Our final grades are 50% school exams, 50% central/state exams.

And it is true that kids in bad school score higher on their school exams compared to their central exams.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I got a rock.

Cerberus

But they still get the same access to higher education everywhere.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

5:33 PM

@Robusto :(

Mitch

►

"although the test was done in English, the program’s conversation-style was written by non-native English speakers, who were forced to analyze the language and recognize its nuances."

Jez

i would so not be fooled by a computer

i mean why wouldn't you ask questions in such a way as to separate a human-style response from a machine-style response?

only time i might be fooled possibly is if i didn't know it was a test

and wasn't trying to catch it out

Cerberus

It all depends on the conditions of the test.

Mitch

@Jez tl:dr people are dumb because they are fooled into thinking other people are fooled

Jez

?

tchrist

5:41 PM

0

Q: Can anything be done about mean-spirited requests for terminology?

tl;dr: Mean people suck, and we should not help them. Why are we helping people hurt each other? For nearly as long as the single-word-requests tag has existed, it has been a source of several distinct types of controversy. On occasion, these have been raised here on our meta. For example: ...

discussion on-topic-off-topic single-word-requests courtesy community-building

Mitch

@Jez The turing test (as everyone thinks it is) is dumb. Even Turing didn't think it's what is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I don't understand the appeal of Charlie Brown. I've never found it funny.

@Mitch I don't think Turing even formally defined the test.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's really very understated, dry, flat...like New Yorker cartoons.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch yeah, it's funny like a glass of water is flavourful.

Maybe it's not meant to be funny?

I just don't know.

Mitch

Everything bad happens to Charlie Brown. Therefore when everybody else gets something good, he doesn't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:46 PM

that's just depressing.

also it isn't funny when it's completely predictable.

what kind of psychopath gives out rocks for halloween.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ha ha hilarious!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch hell, the very first chatbot, Eliza, had all its beta testers convinced it was human, because they didn't know a chatbot was possible.

Jez

they told people it was a 13-yr-old Ukranian?

hang on, did people know it might be a chatbot?

or was that not mentioned at all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think they knew it was a test

Mitch

Think of it this way... did you ever read "Catcher in the Rye"? If you read it as a teenager, you most likely thought "Holy crap, how does Salinger know exactly what's going through my head? People are total phonies". But if you read it first after college all you can think is "What a whiny loser".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

Jez

5:55 PM

@Mitch i read that leaked Salinger story

not sure why he didn't want it released for a while

just 2 kids, one of them runs out into the sea and dies

kinda strange

Mitch

@Jez Yes. Which totally gives it context for it to say things badly. "That was a weird thing to say...must be because he doesn't have good command of English" Holy crap...chatbots are excellent at English. Why couldn't they deal with that?

@Jez Salinger is weird.

Jez

yeah his life was weird

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly. I'm not terribly impressed by the testing conditions.

I wanted to try it, but the site was down.

Mitch

My point is (not about Salinger but about the Turing test) is that the news is a load of cra, they don't understand anything and the little they do understand is wrong.

Also, people are dumb

Kabir101

What does "snail mail" mean?

It refers to regular mail or it talks about being slow?

KitFox

6:01 PM

Yes.

It means by regular post, which is naturally much slower than digital communication.

I just sent off the requirements document. Woo! Can't wait for the criticism.

Cerberus

@Mitch The papers are indeed a bit crappy in this regard, but we don't know how crappy the test itself was. Although I share your scepsis.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The test involved Kevin Warwick. That's a smoking gun right there about how crappy it is.

Cerberus

Oh?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Who is Kevin Warwick?

@Cerberus I can smell that scepsis from here. I recommend amputation.

KitFox

Oh yeah, that guy. No interesting factoids about him

Cerberus

6:10 PM

@Mitch It's pronounced /k/ in Greek!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch notorious for generating bullshit tech news. Like his claims that he was the first cyborg. Or that a human caught a computer virus.

Mitch

@KitFox Oh. googled. duh. "For the first time ever, I uploaded human intelligence directly into silicon" "What, you just wrote an iPhone fart app?"

Kabir101

Help....It will take 3-4 days to get the Work sheet at/to your mailing address. Which preposition goes better?

KitFox

@Mitch Oh. I didn't know who he was.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think that last one was an excuse to tell his wife.

@Kabir101 'to'

Kabir101

6:15 PM

Can you explain why 'to'?

KitFox

to goes somewhere, at is somewhere.

Kabir101

@KitFox: didn't understand.

Mitch

But, to Kit's point, 'to' because the letter is moving and ends up at the destination. 'at' is more about not moving and just sitting there.

Kabir101

@Mitch: I appreciate your answer.

Mitch

With all language, one can just say "That's just the way it is normally said".

Kabir101

6:21 PM

A letter will brief you about the plans offered to you through/by Medicare.

KitFox

Is Medicare offering the plans?

Kabir101

Yes

KitFox

Then by Medicare.

If they are plan brokers, it would be "through".

Kabir101

Got it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> The Turing Test cuts both ways: so far from being a test of how intelligent the software is, it's a test of how intelligent the judge is

Robusto

6:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'd be more concerned how you did on your Voight-Kampff test.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Heh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto so far so good

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Next question: "A tortoise lies on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs . . . trying to turn itself over but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that?"

KitFox

My mother?

Let me tell you about my mother.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Because I'm not there.

Robusto

6:45 PM

zzzzzzzaaaaaapppppp!!!

I fixed a problem with my wife's car. I feel affirmed. It's not every day you can fix a car problem anymore.

KitFox

Congrats.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto His leg is broken, and he will be in the shade in a few minutes.

@Robusto ooh, what was it?

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 "Door Ajar" light wouldn't go off. I traced the problem to the rubber sealer in the back hatch.

Better than spending money for a mechanic to do it.

Kabir101

Look at this one, I think this is totally messed. what do you say? I reported this to service desk, as my mouse is not working. Please approve this to write an email to global.service.desk@aon.com.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto nice.

KitFox

6:58 PM

@Kabir101 I don't understand the last sentence.

Kabir101

I think he wants someone to write an email to global.service.desk@aon.com.

I guess, he wants his manager to approve the request and send it to global service desk.

Robusto

Google is doing a full-court press on the World Cup.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Bleh.

Robusto

Yeah.

KitFox

I'm not scared / of your stolen power

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:05 PM

@Robusto So far I've managed to avoid almost all news about it.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 until now.

Oh, wait.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Uh, spoiler alert?

►

It's a cat video.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Dat ampersand.

Jasper Loy

7:36 PM

RHEL 7 is out, so CentOS 7 will be out soon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are so many other operating systems whose releases you don't announce.

Jasper Loy

Well, this is a major one, lol.

Mitch

@Robusto I'm not concerned. That test is crazy.

Jasper Loy

This chat is a bit boring these days.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Apropos of what?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:41 PM

I've never seen Jasper announce a release of HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, any BSD, QNX, MacOS, iOS, Android, OpenWRT, Tizen, eComStation, .....

Jasper Loy

Ah, I guess I only announce those that are close to my heart.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but certain linux distros, every release gets announced in here

Jasper Loy

I think CentOS is now partly sponsored by Red Hat, which was not so in the past.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. I don't see that anymore.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto ?

Robusto

7:45 PM

I took steps.

Jasper Loy

Has Robusto ignored me?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy It is a redhat project now

Jasper Loy

Haha, I think Robusto has clicked the ignore button, nvm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I've found that the ignore button just makes the room completely incomprehensible, and thus the feature actually punishes me for using it.

Robusto

I resisted it for a long time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:48 PM

I put tchrist on ignore once after he and I got into an argument that degenerated into him calling me names. But he didn't leave the site, so, eventually I relented.

now I just bite my tongue and disengage whenever a repeat scenario is imminent.

Jasper Loy

That day I said that maybe the man in a certain picture is Robusto, that must have upset him so much that he ignored me.

skullpatrol

Why did you say that?

Jasper Loy

Also, I think Matt in the math room has ignored me, because I said I hate animals.

skullpatrol

Matt has issues

Jasper Loy

I think maybe Robusto is tired of my lols as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:53 PM

@JasperLoy That was a little wonky

skullpatrol

If you do anything too much it gets tiresome.

Jasper Loy

I'll just continue to be myself, people can ignore me if they elect to.

skullpatrol

Good idea^

:-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, now I'm reading this list of OSes on Wikipedia. So many I've forgotten about. like Netware.

Jasper Loy

Wikipedia has a huge list of haircuts for men too, lol.

I think my haircut is called Ivy League.

skullpatrol

7:57 PM

Pop quiz: How many universities are there in the ivy league?

Jasper Loy

I am going to eat a Subway sandwich now.

Robusto

Eight?

skullpatrol

Correct :D

Robusto

Everyone always forgets the University of Pennsylvania.

Cuz it sounds like just another state school.

DemCodeLines

What's a good name for a Q&A website for school students?

skullpatrol

8:01 PM

StackExchange

DemCodeLines

@skullpatrol That's not meant for your average Bob who is studying psychology 101

skullpatrol

why not?

@DemCodeLines with enough participation this network could be the "ivy league" of the internet imo

KitFox

Hey @Rob, do you have any recommendations for collections of short stories I should read?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox if you're into WTF, Shirley Jackson.

skullpatrol

!!wiki Shirley Jackson

KitSox

8:10 PM

Shirley Jackson

Shirley Hardie Jackson (December 14, 1916 – August 8, 1965) was an American author. She was a popular writer in her time, and her work has received increasing attention from literary critics in recent years. She has influenced such writers as Neil Gaiman, Stephen King, Nigel Kneale, and Richard Matheson. She is best known for the short story "The Lottery" (1948), which suggests a secret, sinister underside to bucolic small-town America. In her critical biography of Jackson, Lenemaja Friedman notes that when "The Lottery" was published in the June 26, 1948, issue of The New Yorker, ...

KitFox

Possibly.

Kabir101

8:35 PM

@KitFox: are you there?

Kabir101

8:45 PM

'In' the past few years Vs 'Over' the past few years.

Which preposition goes better?

medica

@KitFox - Kit, I was looking for the Town Hall Digest from 2012, but can't find it by searching (I come up with a catch-up in chat). Could you please post a link at your convenience?

@Kabir101 It depends somewhat on the tone you're going for and what you're trying to say. What is the rest of your sentence?

Kabir101

@medica: here it is: In the past few years I have learnt a lot about super cars.

I am just guessing a sentence.

I want to find the difference if any.

medica

@Kabir101 Your register is informal, so I would go with Over the past few years.

Kabir101

Register is informal? I didn't get that part.

medica

in the past few years sounds like you're about to make an observation about something which has been happening (or not happening): like for an article. For personal use, over sounds like what has been happening to you.

@Kabir101 Just an opinion. "Register" is the tone of your writing or speech. Scientific writing involves a very formal tone/register (like the tone of your voice: serious/playful/informal).

@Kabir101 A journal or an email to your friends would be written in a very informal register/tone. Does that adequately explain?

Kabir101

8:55 PM

I appreciate your effort. Thank you @medica

It does.

medica

@Kabir101 Sorry if that wasn't useful. You're fine with either over or in.

@Kabir101 for an informal register, over sounds better, I think.

Kabir101

I think 'Over the last few years' covers the wide range of observation where 'in' being a little specific in terms of picking options.

Dont you think?

I am also compering 'I am looking over the documents' vs 'I am looking in the document/documents.

When you 'Over' you make a wide observation and when you 'in' you get specific. Is not it?

medica

@Kabir101 'I am looking over the documents' is better, yes.

Kabir101

@medica: Thank you

@medica: where is kit? she answers all my questions.

KitSox

9:29 PM

beep beep boop boop

Alenanno

Hi

Kit, hey there

Any mods or high-rep users?

@KitFox Are you there?

Mitch

9:54 PM

@JasperLoy I'm ignoring you! La La La la I can't hear you! sticks fingers in ears

@KitFox Ya know, that elicited a response. I think that means he passed the test.

Robusto

10:21 PM

@KitFox What are you looking for? Genre, literary, what?

0

Q: Is “Arriving late to the party, but dancing on all the clichés” an adaptation of a cliché?

Yesterday’s (June 12) New York Times introduced Guggenheim’s new ventures of collecting artworks from South and South east Asia, Middle East, North Africa, and Latin America, which it has paid little attention to in the past under the headline, “Arriving Late to the Party, but Dancing on All the ...

meaning idioms

I knew this was Yoichi just at a glance.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

11:39 PM

Robusto

Awwww.

KitFox

@medica It's on the pinned message.

Jun 9 at 23:21, by KitFox

For anyone interested in elections or nominating yourself for moderator, here are some handy reference materials: 2011 election and Town Hall Digest, 2012 election and Town Hall Digest.

@Alenanno I am now.

@Robusto Anything worthwhile.

I got some Hemingway.

Robusto

@KitFox Are you just interested in reading or in learning the craft?

KitFox

11:57 PM

Learning through reading examples.