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ssb
12:28 AM
so hard to be motivated to do anything when i'm this sleepy..
 
Caffeine〜〜
-2
Q: By what's better started first, hiragana or katakana?

user17629I'm beginner in to learn japanese and will would know by what's better start first, hiragana or katakana and why?, Thanks in advance

We still don't like subjective questions, hehe
 
ssb
maybe someday
0
Q: Can Sempai be used to address a student of the same year/age

Memor-XI've been working on a script for a Visual Novel, in it one of the heroine's Sakura address's the main hero Talavaliau (Tala for short) as Sempai because she has a crush on him and can't bring herself to actually call him by his name even with honorifics but also as a sign of respect for his natu...

trying to imagine a visual novel written in the style of this question
 
1:00 AM
@snailboat Hmm, I do not know what is “subjective” or “opinion-based” about this question. It seems like a reasonable question to me.
Q: Which is better to learn first, hiragana or katakana?
A: It does not matter much because you will learn both in short time anyway.
This seems like a perfect question-answer pair. Of course, if someone tries to argue that one is better than the other, then _that answer_ will be subjective, but that is not the asker’s fault.
 
ssb
i do kind of agree that it's a subjective question with a kind of objective answer
or it could be subjective anyway
 
I think that many questions can be answered subjectively if one wants to, but that does not make the questions subjective. It seems contradictory to me to close a question which can be (and was already) answered fairly objectively as “opinion-based.”
 
ssb
i think people like to jump on any question that can invite any kind of argument
 
That’s true, but why does this question particularly invite arguments?
 
ssb
not saying necessarily that it would, but that someone could potentially argue in favor of one or the other, and ultimately I don't think there is any hard evidence that can deliver a truly objective answer
 
1:14 AM
So much messiness on the site this morning...
 
ssb
I don't know, "it doesn't matter" is a perfectly fine answer I think, but I still feel like it lacks a certain authority
not to suggest that means it shouldn't be allowed as a question
 
It's a straightforward "learning" question.... "which do I prioritize in my learning?"
As of now, we've solidly rejected those questions as a category... that doesn't mean that a) we always will or b) that question couldn't be more objectively written to be acceptable
 
ssb
but note it was closed as opinion based and not off topic
 
The problem is... everyone who has studied the language for a bit knows that hiragana and katakana are great "litmus tests"
"I'm learning Japanese too!" "Really... cool... what are you studying" "Well, I watch a lot of anime and am almost done with the hiragana" "... oh... okay"
okay, so the "anime" addition probably distracts from my point more than adds to it... but the idea comes across anyways
 
ssb
"i've learned quite a lot of Japanese just from watching anime!"
it's ok, I'm happy to jump on this train of elitism any day
 
1:20 AM
If the question was closed as off-topic, then I would not have argued this way. (I do not think that it is a good reason to close questions anyway, but this is a long-standing problem with the site and I would not bring it up now.)
Both of you seem to be basing the decision on the worst possible answers, but I do not think that it is reasonable. Potentially many questions can be answered in subjective and silly ways.
 
Learning a language has some really @*&#ing boring parts... getting over "memorize these 46 symbols... oh and these 46 too" is a decent test to see if someone is serious enough about it to stick with it at all.
 
ssb
I actually agree that it could be an on topic question
I'm just saying what I think to be the prevailing opinion
 
@TsuyoshiIto I think the question, as phrased, is clearly offtopic. I can imagine a question on the same topic that would be acceptable, and if I could nail the phrasing down would edit it into shape...
 
@TsuyoshiIto Well, I did my best to answer objectively
 
ssb
Someone inexperienced might not have the knowledge necessary to understand that both are equally necessary though and ultimately a tiny part of learning
the question could be edited a few ways, I think. would we want to remove the element of learning completely?
 
1:26 AM
@jkerian: I do not agree that the question is clearly off-topic, but that is not the point here. “Off-topic” is not what people voted for.
 
@jkerian I thought learning kana was fun rather than boring :-)
 
ssb
I feel like because of the nature of the correct answer it almost doesn't matter how the question is asked
 
Questions should not be deemed subjective just because they could potentially be answered subjectively. I think that my opinion is quite clear. (Some questions cannot be answered objectively at all, and they should be closed.)
 
That makes sense to me
 
ssb
I agree with that. Would enough people agree that snailboat's answer is objective enough?
 
1:32 AM
(I originally thought it was a fine question for JLU, which is why I thought answering was an okay thing to do)
 
ssb
present company excluded
 
At least the answer has score 2, which is kinda evidence that it is not a mere opinion.
I am not sure if the question can be edited to remove the learning aspect. It looks to me that the question is really about learning Japanese.
 
@TsuyoshiIto Yeah... that's my problem as well.
 
So if questions about learning Japanese should be closed, then the question should be closed. I am against this “if” part, but that is a different matter.
 
I mean, you can provide another answer that would be perhaps a great addition to the site "40% of learners started with katakana, 50% with hiragana, 10% with kanji, of each of these categories, X,Y,Z% had difficulties with the other character sets/continuing to study/etc"... assuming some education researcher has actually studied it
But I'm still not sure how you get to that answer from an acceptable question
 
ssb
1:36 AM
i'm pretty sure just about every textbook starts with hiragana
 
@ssb Jorden's starts with katakana, I believe
 
If we include native speakers, most native speakers under 50 probably learned hiragana first :)
Older than that, I do not know the border, but at some point, katakana was first.
 
ssb
katakana was first?
 
I actually recommend katakana first, since new learners will often be able to puzzle out words taken from English
It can be encouraging
 
ssb
I learned hiragana and katakana immediately in sequence so really that must be the best way
 
1:39 AM
Yes, I heard in older time, children learned katakana first, probably because the mixture of katakana and kanji was more formal than the mixture of hiragana and kanji.
 
@jkerian Don't forget yet another point of view: "don't learn any writing system until you've learned the sounds of the language thoroughly"
Not technically in conflict with any of the others mentioned, but . . .
 
@jkerian That is an interesting point.
 
ssb
I wish that was emphasized much more with Japanese students of English..
 
@snailboat Hey... I'm a big fan of Jordan's textbook, even with her screwy romaji
 
ssb
I do agree with that to an extent too, it depends totally on what the learner's goals are
when people ask me what they should learn when first going to Japan with no Japanese knowledge I always say they should learn katakana before anything
but i'm not sure that advice holds up for people who want to watch anime without subtitles
 
1:46 AM
@ssb Watching anime without subtitles is really about listening, but that level probably requires the use of dictionary....
 
This question needs a new title... any suggestions? japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/13378
 
Does the whole quote fit in the title?
Is the question really about having two がs?
 
Going back to question 13383, I think it was unfortunate that it was closed as “opinion-based,” but I understand that it will be closed as off-topic given the currently prevailing opinion of closing questions about learning.
 
Seems to be... so... "Why the second ga in ...."
 
@jkerian The simplest is put the whole quote. Much better than the current title anyway.
 
1:53 AM
3
Q: How do the two が in もう止まらないあなたがあなたのことが恋しい work?

Storm Echo"もう止まらないあなたがあなたのことが恋しい" / "Mou tomaranai anata ga anata no koto ga koishii" I know that "mou tomaranai" = "no longer stops" and "anata no koto ga koishii" = "miss/long for you" but that "ga" in the middle throws me off. It looks like it's saying "You miss the you that won't stop anymore", but th...

good enuf
 
@jkerian I like the new title.
 
ssb
those are song lyrics?
seems like it's missing a bit of punctuation
 
@ssb It looks so.
 
@ssb hmm... true... I believe you just volunteered to fix it
 
ssb
as it is now it reads to me like "you (no longer stopping) miss yourself"
 
1:55 AM
@ssb oh... thought you were talking about ""s or 「」s
 
@ssb Or a space もう止まらない あなたがあなたのことが恋しい
 
ssb
i'm talking more about the blob of text
right, and maybe a 、 after the first が
 
With punctuation, it is もう止まらない。あなたが、あなたのことが恋しい。
But usually in lyrics we do not put punctuation.
 
ssb
ah, really?
I don't do much looking up of lyrics so I'm not familiar with conventions there
 
I look up lyrics all the time because I have trouble making out all the words in music on my own
 
ssb
1:57 AM
I listen to mostly instrumental music so there's that
but would there at least be a newline or something?
 
They put a space
もう止まらない あなたがあなたのことが恋しい
 
ssb
totally forgot about the kanji in 淋しい
 
@ssb: Are you more familiar with kanji 寂しい?
 
ssb
yeah
Just forgot that it had that alternate reading
er, writing
 
I think 寂 is joyo kanji but 淋 is not (I may be wrong)
 
ssb
2:01 AM
i don't think it is
 
So probably 寂 is more common in newspaper and the like
 
I've noticed that lyrics often use less common kanji for the same words
I think I first learned 淋しい from lyrics
 
ssb
yeah it isn't joyo
 
Although it seems to depend on who writes the lyrics
椎名林檎 seems to delight in writing things in unusual ways :-)
 
ssb
i've seen some weird kanji in song lyrics
it can throw you off at karaoke
 
2:02 AM
:)
 
Oh, and Sound Horizon seems to have an extensive kanji collection.
 
椎名林檎 has a song ここでキスして。 with “。”
 
ssb
taking lyrics to daring new heights..
wait that's the title?
 
Yes, ここでキスして。 is the title.
 
ssb
interesting
 
2:04 AM
But lyrics do not seem to have 、 or 。
 
ssb
what is アナーキー
oh, anarchy
 
ssb
アナーキーなあなた
this song looks like a yankee high school girl's anthem
 
For some reason, I had never thought that the protagonist was a high school student, but now I read it, she should be.
I have to go now. It was nice talking to you all. See you!
 
ssb
have a good one
 
2:13 AM
Have a good evening (or day or morning)!
 
hmm... does anyone have a japanese subbed/dubbed version of the BSG spinoff "Caprica"?
 
I'm afraid not
 
It occurs to me that it would give you at least a reference point for this question
 
At one point, Sound Horizon's lyrics say 錏痾蛙遭嗟有合或吾会在唖逢娃婀堊, which they pronounce ああああああああああああああああ
 
ssb
嗚呼
 
2:14 AM
@jkerian I'm not sure people on TV are a reliable reference for people in real life
In America, at least, gay people typically act differently on TV than in real life
Not that there is a single way that gay people act, of course--just that TV tends toward certain behaviors
@ssb Hehe!
 
@snailboat True... the relationships in that show were very "matter-of-fact" though, no particular attention drawn towards them
(no guarantee that the same would be done in the Japanese version, of course... but still)
 
ssb
in college i had a lesbian Japanese professor
she always used パートナー
 
@jkerian One thing I've noticed about American shows dubbed in Japanese is that they tend to be assigned stereotyped roles with 役割語
@ssb Go write an answer, you non-answer writin' non-answer writer
 
@snailboat It's pretty funny watching the Criminal Minds opening, actually...
 
ssb
ok fine, an answer it shall be
 
2:17 AM
You know what I've always wondered... If there's a term for that thing in Japanese where you say something, and then after a pause you add something to it that changes or negates the meaning entirely
Like 素直じゃ。
ない!
I could come up with a much better example if I hadn't pulled an all-nighter. My brain are fried.
 
It's at least getting to be evening again for you, right?
 
Yep! :-)
I got a lot of coding done. Now I'm at that point where coding is dangerous, but language is just undangerous enough to coast to eveningness on
At this point, caffeine can no longer buy me brain.
I decided around when I was 27 or so not to pull all-nighters anymore.
That's when I started noticing my brain didn't quite work very well when I did
It was probably always true, but I didn't really notice until then. (I can be a slow learner)
So here I am, five years later, still too obsessive in all things to listen to my better judgment
But on the bright side, I do get a lot done each day :-)
 
I was never really fond of all-nighters, but mainly because not getting enough sleep makes my legs start to hurt... no idea why...
 
Oh, that's too bad. I don't have that problem personally
 
It's fairly proportional as well... I only slept about 5 and a half hours last night, (about an hour short of normal for me), so there's a somewhat dull pain right below the kneecap right now
 
2:23 AM
I started really noticing the cognitive deficits from lack of sleep a few hours ago. (I still have to wait for a normal time to sleep, so my sleep doesn't get off-schedule)
I posted a comment an hour ago on ssb's answer suggesting to istrasci 同級生
After which I noticed it was in ssb's answer :-)
@jkerian Oh no!
 
If I cut it down to 4 or so, from the thigh down to the ankle will ache all day
 
Six and a half is not a lot of hours. How long are your dream cycles? I think mine are the normal 90 minutes
So seven and a half hours of sleep works out for me
 
@snailboat Not sure... honestly... I've never tried to measure, and I never remember my dreams
 
ssb
your 素直じゃ。ない! example makes me think of a line from Earthbound and I realize I've always wanted to see what the Japanese version was
 
@ssb It seems like a common trope in Japanese fiction, adding to a sentence or embedding it in a larger one to do a 180 on the meaning
It always stands out to me when it's translated to English, because it doesn't work very well
 
ssb
2:26 AM
it always stuck with me because of how awkward it was in English
A bee I am
(pause... pause..)
not!
 
You get translations like "...NOT!" (which went out of fashion in the 90s) or "...is what I'd like to say!"
 
@snailboat Then again... how many anime translators have been shut-ins since the 90s....
 
@jkerian Language is all different for me now, because I moved to California and people talk funny here.
I mean, I talk funny, but other people talking funny is new to me. Well, new as of 2000.
I guess that's old new, but it's still new.
Oh god, I should stop typing now :-)
 
ssb
where did you move from, though?
 
Illinois!
 
ssb
2:30 AM
oh gosh, where
 
Oh, west suburbs of Chicago
 
ssb
how far west are we talking
 
Around Naperville
Don't make me give you GPS coordinates! I'm trying to be vague! ;-)
 
ssb
gotcha
haha no worries
i grew up in rockford
 
I'm already too easy to net.stalk
That's where I was born! Er, crap--divulging more identifiable personal information!
 
ssb
2:32 AM
technically i was born in elgin
 
I've been to Elgin once or twice
 
ssb
but lived in rockford from 1 to 18, then school in Chicago
 
Chicago is scary. I mean, driving in Chicago is scary.
And every time I ever went to Chicago I was driving
 
ssb
I didn't take my car to school with me
 
I've noticed that in Japanese vowels are occasionally omitted in contexts I don't expect
Umm, particularly in utterance-final position
 
2:41 AM
@snailboat such as です?
 
No, because that's a context I expect
Such as 光 becoming hikar
Or んだ becoming nd
I have a very small pile of examples
Because I hardly ever hear it
Reduced or omitted /u/ in です on the other hand is pretty much expected in many/most circumstances :-)
 
ssb
It blew my mind the first time I heard Japanese people talking about "haiku"
almost exactly the same as "hike" in English
 
Hehe!
That one's predictable, but being predictable is not the same as having predicted it, I agree :-)
 
ssb
I was just so used to high-KOO
 
Actually, I feel like you can't just have language as a pile of rules in your brain
 
ssb
2:45 AM
didn't even occur to me that they would say it differently
 
I feel like you have to learn all the different applications of all the rules in context
Because even if you could figure it out, if it's not what you're already expecting by virtue of having already experienced or already figured it out, it doesn't do you good in time
@ssb I have the same problem in both directions. When I talk to people in English and they pronounce things in a normal English-y way, if I'm used to hearing it in Japanese, I sometimes fail to connect it at all to the Japanese word. And vice versa
 
ssb
it's more interesting maintaining that element of surprise ;)
 
I actually feel like it would be more personable of me to deliberately pronounce Japanese words as they'd be anglicized when talking to people in English, but that seems like an extra step for my poor brain which is struggling just to understand the word pronounced in a Japanese context :-)
 
ssb
you mean speaking Japanese with a bad American accent, or saying Japanese words in English?
 
Like, I know a girl named Sakura who pronounces her name in English like, well, nothing like さくら
 
ssb
2:48 AM
I still struggle mentally when I have to say "karaoke" in English
 
布団 is the one that gives me trouble....
 
Well, I mean pronouncing it as an American usually would when speaking English
Hehe, yeah!
Of course, 布団 and futon mean two different things.
 
I screw that one up in both directions ><
 
ssb
right, for me futon is an easy one because a "futon" is a folding couch while a 布団 is the thing I sleep on in Japan
 
I was talking to a Japanese friend, and I explained that in English, we say futons for the plural--unlike most loans from Japanese, it has been regularized and no longer has a zero plural for most speakers
 
ssb
2:49 AM
gotta make a stop at the futon shop!
 
So not only does it have a different meaning and pronunciation, it's become a fully regular English word
 
ssb
was that jingle not a national thing?
 
But she objected, and claimed that futon in English remains a Japanese word (I'll never understand people who advance this argument), and because フトンズ is wrong, I should not say futons
At which point I giggled, because フトンズ.
 
ssb
all you have to do is choose just about any 和製英語 ever
 
Go sign!
Cunning sheet.
 
2:51 AM
@snailboat wth?
 
Sorry. Cunning paper.
A カンニングペーパー is a cheat sheet.
 
ssb
ohhh
 
haha
 
ssb
i was really confused for a moment
 
My mind interfered and changed paper to sheet
 
2:52 AM
I was only briefly in school in Japan... I actually know relatively little "school vocabulary"
 
I love Yシャツ
 
ssb
my first ever experience with Japanese English that really threw me off was マイペース
because I couldn't figure out who the "my" was referring to
 
I only know school vocabulary because I have friends who are silly enough to ask someone like me for help with Japanese :-)
Aww, マイペース
 
ssb
その人はマイペースですね
 
The whole マイ~ thing seems to be fairly productive, if that's even the right word
 
ssb
2:53 AM
then who was "my"
thought I, years ago
 
オープンカー
@jkerian Or, on the flip side, ドンマイ!
Here's one: NG
 
ssb
NG was one of those things I'd seen in games and stuff all the time but never really knew what it was supposed to mean
i always guessed "not good" but I was never sure
 
How about: ガッツポーズ
 
ssb
i do like that one
or スキンシップ
 
So when I read istrasci's comment
I thought 同年生 was not a real word, and 同窓生 was less common than 同級生
So I suggested that, then I saw in your answer you'd suggested it
But now I wonder if he saw that
(Is 同年生 secretly a real word?)
 
ssb
2:58 AM
i've never heard it
I edited in 同級生 after I saw your comment because it's the one I recognized being used most but
 
OH
 
ssb
I was also iffy on 同年生
 
I thought it was there all along, so I deleted my comment and went "zuh" :-)
 
ssb
aha, no
 
"How did I not see that before I commented!?" ;-)
 
ssb
2:59 AM
it didn't occur to me to offer an alternative to 同輩 so your comment was helpful!
 
As long as I'm paying closer attention, I should point out that you misspelled istrasci's name
Yay
I'm helpful!
 
ssb
i need to learn to proofread my answers better
 
Me too.
 
ssb
I always go back to edit out repetitive or awkward phrasing and typos days or weeks later
 
Do you read your answers out loud?
It's an old proofreading trick. It's easy to fool the eye, but harder to fool the ear.
 
ssb
3:02 AM
nope
since I first started writing in school I've had this bad habit of not proofreading
done writing, done thinking about it
 
I think I developed a bad habit when I was pushing through a lot Japanese understanding only some of it
I feel like I got into the habit of letting myself get a little bit lazy and not really understand things, and just let myself approximate it
I've been trying to be stricter with myself
Of course, no one has 100% reading comprehension in any language, and I don't mean I'm trying for that :-) But...
It's important to be aware of how well you're understanding, when possible, I think.
 
ssb
i had a similar problem reading political philosophy in college
but instead of approximating I'd realize I'd read an entire page and not processed any of it mentally
 
I do that when I'm sleepy.
I read every night before I sleep, and that's how I know when to turn off the light
I end up reading entirely on automatic without actually connecting mentally to any of the words
 
ssb
actually on the contrary used to labor intensely over every Japanese text I read
 
Unfortunately, it happens to me a bit easier in Japanese :-)
 
ssb
3:06 AM
especially in the early days
 
I've definitely done that.
 
ssb
it ended up being problematic when I was doing JLPT
 
There's still a limit to how much my brain will let me read in Japanese. :-(
I feel like my brain fries if I read more than about 50 pages in one sitting
And I pretty much have to call it a night at that point
I can tell this is progress, because I remember when it used to be 30 pages :-)
(I know it depends a lot on what you're reading, etc. But let me have my meaningless estimates!)
 
ssb
subjectivity is sometimes the best form of objectivity
 
I have no problem focusing enough to read an entire English novel in one sitting
I don't know if I'll ever get there with Japanese.
 
ssb
3:08 AM
i have a problem with books where I have to take breaks fairly frequently
most often because my neck hurts, oddly enough
 
Oh no!
They say the best way to read is in a comfy reading chair.
 
ssb
reading on the screen I can go much longer
 
But I tend to read lying down
 
ssb
i've only read an entire novel in one sitting one time
and it was a short one
 
@ssb Heh... if you think that's bad in political philosophy... try physics :)
 
3:10 AM
I follow a bunch of urban fantasy series, and even though most of them aren't very good, I'm usually super excited whenever the next book comes out :-)
If I'm reading something I actually need to process, I read much slower
I'm still working through my grammar books!
It's really educational, because you can develop a mental model based on what you hear and read, but that mental model might be somewhat at odds with how things are actually used
Reading about grammar can correct those discrepancies, I think
 
ssb
I find my reading speed depends on how interested i am in the material
though I'm a slow reader in general
 
Oh, but that's the trick to learning anything.
Make yourself interested in it!
And reading fast isn't a great skill. Reading consistently is :-)
 
I'm currently responsible for listening to 2-3 technical meetings per day, translating some terms, and relaying the information in another technical meeting
I've discovered that I'm a slow listener (in English) :P
 
ssb
well lately i read things that i enjoy so it hasn't been a problem!
 
Honestly, the faster you read, the lower your reading comprehension. That's true for everyone, and pretty much no one reads over 600 wpm with > 50% comprehension
 
3:18 AM
The argument from the speed-reading advocates is that you don't NEED more than about 15% comprehension for most things
 
(See Carver's Reading Rate: A Comprehensive Review of Research and Theory (1990))
Speed reading is not supported by science. It is pseudo-science
Speed readers are teaching themselves to skim
That's fine, for what it is.
 
ssb
I feel like I'm cheating myself if I only get 15% comprehension from something
 
@snailboat I don't particularly care what you call it
 
But a lot of speed reading techniques are based on pseudoscientific techniques like suppression of subvocalization, which actually inhibits reading comprehension
 
ssb
I hated skimming assignments in school because I'd always worry "But what if I miss something?!"
 
3:20 AM
@ssb Skimming the student handbook was usually worthwhile
There are all sorts of gems in those, that most students are completely unaware of
You can force most colleges to offer you the final class you need for a degree. You can usually skip classes if you can ace the final exam... stuff like that.
Very few people even in the administration are aware of some of it
 
ssb
at my school pretty much anything could be done independent study if needed
although i generally enjoyed going to class!
 
3:37 AM
I should really stop trying to collect specimens of Japanese sentences off of Google
@jkerian Skimming is a useful skill to learn, particularly on material which is written in a way that cooperates with skimmers
 
 
1 hour later…
4:45 AM
@snailboat I am reminded of...
12 hours ago, by snailboat
Yay, I contributed my gibberish to the internet.
 
5:40 AM
@jkerian Hee
 
いとうさん来てたんだ・・・いつだろう。時差が・・・
 
I'm still proud, by the way. I actually remembered to use Lang-8! :-)
I don't know what time zone he's in
 
I thought he was the same as you, snailboat
 
It was around 18:10, in that case
 
西海岸で18:10?
 
5:42 AM
Yes that, Pacific Standard Time
is when he left
西海岸標準時
Some day I'll learn all the time zone words in Japanese. (Or not. I only know like 10 of them in English.)
 
18+17=35だから、35-24=11,
午前11時か・・
 
On Lang-8, when I made a few corrections, it said L ポイントランキング(直近3日間) 327 / 198,684 (日本語)
I didn't make very many corrections
So I guess that means the large majority of users studying Japanese on Lang-8 haven't been active in the last 3 days
Only hundreds
Good night, everyone! :-)
 
'night
 

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