English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

12:08 AM

howdy @snailboat

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:19 AM

mcsweeneys.net/articles/lets-get-ready-to-rumble

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:10 AM

yesterday, by cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Forever alone.

goes to eat worms

Robusto

3:48 AM

@RegD: Another wow episode. I didn't think they could keep up the tension, but I was wrong. Somehow they managed to take it up to 11.

EnglishMaster

4:53 AM

What's the difference between biological eye and naked eye?

EnglishMaster

5:37 AM

Guys, which person do you think speak English better?

►

This is Shinzo Abe from Japan

►

This is Park Guen Hae from Korea

But Park spoke English in front of a lot of listener whose first language is English.

Noah

5:52 AM

HI

EnglishMaster

6:32 AM

Hello

EnglishMaster

7:20 AM

yay

my emulated CPU works

but the problem is freaking TIMING!!

Matt Эллен

7:56 AM

@Cerberus I wear them for cycling

in the cooler months

RegDwighт

8:36 AM

@Cerberus prachtig, dankje.

awe

There is this question over at ELL:

6

Q: Plural subject + Linking Verb + Singular predicate nominative

All people are a mystery. Since the subject is plural, should the the predicate nominative mystery be also plural? And would the meaning still be the same? As in All people are mysteries. How about the following? All people are a phenomenon. All people are phenomena.

Although native speakers might instinctively know what it should be, I have a feeling there would be a more linguistically depth needed to explain why it is like this?

I guess what I'm trying here is to invite someone to come up with an in-depth answer that can give more insight on the issue in question.

Noah

9:22 AM

Hi@MattЭллен

How are you?

Matt Эллен

Fine thanks, Noah. How are you?

Noah

I am good.

I have a question

There are some nouns that can be used both as countable and as mass ones. But how to do you know when to use which?

Matt Эллен

That's the native speaker's dilemma. How can I explain something I just know?

I saw a ewe give birth to a lamb. I ate some lamb for dinner.

Noah

Okay, so there's no rule?

Approval

No some are tricky

For example Approval

I have got approval to go ahead with this plan

I have an approval to go ahead with this plan

Matt Эллен

When you are trying to count something, e.g. apples, then you use the count

@Noah in that situation it depends on what you have

do you have general approval to do something?

Noah

9:33 AM

Well, it's an email. So basically it's both.

EnglishMaster

It's hard to explain those technical terms. Even in Korean, I can't explain some grammatical topic but I just know it. If I were able to explain it then I should become a teacher

Matt Эллен

Then it doesn't matter, does it?

English doesn't for you to have a binary state

Noah

For example, you got an email that has the go ahead for something, which is the general thing. But in the mean time, it's a paper, right?

Matt Эллен

if something is two things then it is two things

Noah

Okay

So in that case you can use any of the two.

right?

Matt Эллен

9:34 AM

yes

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен oh I see this chat now has Your International Moment of Zens. Marvellous innovation.

EnglishMaster

Has anyone seen the VHS2?

RegDwighт

I have, but I didn't recognize it as I don't know what VHS2 is.

EnglishMaster

It's really messed up movie but pretty scary.

Noah

He seems to be a troll.

RegDwighт

9:37 AM

Oh those I have seen alright in abundance.

Noah

@RegDwighт And you are also a troll:)

RegDwighт

I am not also a troll. I am the troll. Sheesh.

EnglishMaster

I think it's one of the best found footage type movie ever made.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт When words fall in a chat room, and there's no one around to troll, are they true?

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен sadly I was not there to read your question, so I won't answer it.

So the proper orthography is V/H/S/2.

6.2/10.

Noah

9:39 AM

Good. Dr. Troll

RegDwighт

Top 5000. That's not saying much.

Noah

I read a placard that said: Obama, fuck your red line

RegDwighт

I am a bit worried that it's rated better than V/H/S.

Noah

I think it was from Syria

RegDwighт

That was another great movie, The Thin Red Tape.

EnglishMaster

9:41 AM

IMDB is full of loser movie critics. Don't trust their rating

RegDwighт

That's what loser movie critics say.

"People who don't rate this movie the way I rated it just don't get it."

Noah

@RegDwighт Were you able to sell your [forgot the name]?

RegDwighт

I was selling my [forgot the name]?

No were you able to?

Such a sellout

9:43 AM

Lego samples

Finally

RegDwighт

Oh. I wasn't selling LEGO samples.

I was, and am, pitching an official LEGO set.

And I'm not sure how long you think such things typically take, but they typically take much longer than you think.

Noah

So it's an NP Complete problem.

RegDwighт

Yes, a No Problem Complete problem.

Noah

Right. Exactly that.

But talking of NP Complete, I was reading something about it, it makes no sense. It's like asking: can we turn "ash" back into "wood" with exactly the same structure, retaining everything.

Maybe @MattЭллен can explain it alittle further

Matt Эллен

9:52 AM

me?

RegDwighт

Yeah fo real Brits can't explain shit.

Matt Эллен

Unlike crocodiles.

RegDwighт

That's why they have a shit PM. They can't explain it!

Matt Эллен

:D

Noah

Yea

you are our math and computer genious

Matt Эллен

9:53 AM

@RegDwighт touché

RegDwighт

I am your genius, period. For all your genius needs.

Matt Эллен

I certainly can't explain that one

Noah

►

becuase they dont have the guts

►

Anonymous

10:26 AM

Hello.

Anonymous

I was wandering if there is anything similar to a wildcard in English

Anonymous

Some symbol you put in the middle of words to show, that there should be a word there but do now know what/which

RegDwighт

Since when is that language-specific?

Anonymous

@RegDwighт hmm?

Anonymous

Then what is it?

Anonymous

10:29 AM

% or ? or *

RegDwighт

_

Anonymous

really?

RegDwighт

Unless you described it wrong.

Anonymous

oh,

Anonymous

I think I remembered it now.

RegDwighт

10:30 AM

People who bother you: "N_GGERS".

►

Annoy, not bother. My bad.

Matt Эллен

but "TROLL" doesn't start with an N

RegDwighт

It does if you write it as NROLL or NTROLL.

Anonymous

Suppose: someone said to me, that she hasn't seen cats and dogs being "happy, playing, in peace" together in

Anonymous

Oh, I just realized that is one bad example

Anonymous

Anyway, I got it.

Anonymous

10:32 AM

thanks

Anonymous

One last request: Is there a word to describe the action, in which a person says thank you without meaning it

Anonymous

Like someone saying to you. " I wish you .... "

Anonymous

But, you know he/she does not mean it

Matt Эллен

other than lying?

disingenuous sentiment

Anonymous

eh, I will go with men·da·cious

Anonymous

10:36 AM

first time to hear it

Matt Эллен

ok

RegDwighт

Well I wouldn't go with that one.

Anonymous

@RegDwighт Ok, don't be shy. Let it out.

Anonymous

:p

RegDwighт

Why would you go with a word nobody understands, including yourself?

Matt Эллен

10:37 AM

Insincere is probably a better choice

Anonymous

Well, since when are we required to write only in simple words.

RegDwighт

Anything is a better choice than a word you do not understand.

Anonymous

If that was the case, we would be using 100 words a day.

Anonymous

I just looked it up, and came to understand it.

RegDwighт

Looks like you're missing the point. Even though I am only using very simple words.

@Simon_eQ you have never seen it used. You don't know how it's used, when by whom and where. You can't possibly start using it right just like that. And more to the point, you can't expect your audience to understand anything.

Anonymous

10:39 AM

It's not a Rocket-Science man.

Anonymous

I got it.

Matt Эллен

So what man is it?

Cerberus

10:59 AM

Hello, rocket-science man and others.

Matt Эллен

Hello!

RegDwighт

Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids. Snickers is.

Cerberus

How's the room?

RegDwighт

Prachtig.

Cerberus

Stop snickering at our misery.

RegDwighт

11:01 AM

Okay, I am persnicketing at your maverick instead.

Matt Эллен

What is your misery?

RegDwighт

It's misery owned by you.

Matt Эллен

I own Cerb's misery?

RegDwighт

You ask me?

Cerberus

Oh, potential misery, then.

Matt Эллен

11:02 AM

You're telling me

RegDwighт

That's like between you two, dude.

Only impotential misery is true misery. All other misery is merely potential.

Cerberus

I believe the opposite of "potential" is "actual", or "in the act".

RegDwighт

I believe in the existence of angels.

Cerberus

Excuse us?

Matt Эллен

I believe in the existence of bears

RegDwighт

11:04 AM

Never.

Cerberus

Look.

RegDwighт

I am looking.

Cerberus

Do you want to start a new pedant war?

Matt Эллен

I am good looking.

Cerberus

God knows how many people died during the last Pedant Wars.

RegDwighт

11:05 AM

@Cerberus start? We're in the middle of it.

@Cerberus God knows many other things, too.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus well, the average death rate of people across the globe...

Cerberus

But it's an agonising death, people screaming their lungs out forced to read "your wrong!" until they die.

Artillery shells are more humane.

Matt Эллен

I hear they care for lost children

Cerberus

Do they?

As long as they can be indoctrinated?

Matt Эллен

between 2005 and 2010 0.85% of people died

Cerberus

11:13 AM

Or, as they call it, indocternated?

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

That few?

Matt Эллен

Artilery shells don't have testes, so they are, on average, more caring than men.

Cerberus

Haha.

I suppose.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus according to picky wedia

Mortality rate

Mortality rate is a measure of the number of deaths (in general, or due to a specific cause) in a population, scaled to the size of that population, per unit of time. Mortality rate is typically expressed in units of deaths per 1000 individuals per year; thus, a mortality rate of 9.5 (out of 1000) in a population of 1,000 would mean 9.5 deaths per year in that entire population, or 0.95% out of the total. It is distinct from morbidity rate, which refers to the number of individuals in poor health during a given time period (the prevalence rate) or the number of newly appearing cases of t...

Cerberus

11:16 AM

That's wicked.

I guess it is that low because most countries have bulge at the lower end of their ehm population pyramid.

High fertility and all.

Matt Эллен

ah! could be

Cerberus

Even we in the West have a bulge in middle age.

Matt Эллен

I'm aiming to keep trim

Cerberus

Otherwise it would be impossible: if you die within 80 years from birth, there has to be a chance of 1/80 for you to die every year.

Same.

Matt Эллен

All of my gandparents lived (or are living) past 80

RegDwighт

11:22 AM

I don't understand your math. Or you don't understand math.

Matt Эллен

I think. Actually I don't know how old my mum's parents were when they died

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Great! I think three of mine made it pas the mark, the other one was dead long before I was born, from smoking.

@RegDwighт Why not?

RegDwighт

If you die within 80 years from birth, that says exactly nothing about your chance to die in any given year.

Cerberus

It is perhaps better formulated differently: if people die at the age of 80 on average, that means each about 1/80 of the population should die yearly.

@RegDwighт Why not? This is ehmm how do you call that in probability theory, where the only information you have is just that people reach the age of 80 on average.

RegDwighт

Exactly. And that information is insufficient.

Cerberus

11:27 AM

Why?

RegDwighт

Because it's completely irrelevant. It is not related in any way shape or form to your probability of dying.

Cerberus

Well, probability "is" not.

It is a subjective conclusion drawn based on what information you have. So, sure, we have more information in reality, so that's why 1/80 is much less accurate than what we know in reality.

We know that old people are more likely to die, for example.

And that the composition of the population is not proportional (as in number of people per age group).

So I can't suppose that you age is a random number between 0 and infinity.

Which I would have to do to get a chance of 1/80.

Agreed?

RegDwighт

I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

Cerberus

Okay, then.

RegDwighт

What does "a chance of 1/80" even mean?

Cerberus

11:34 AM

Well, that's difficult.

RegDwighт

It's only difficult if you don't define it.

Which is my whole point.

I have no idea what you mean by 1/80. You seem to mean two entirely different things at different points, actually.

(But really neither of them follows from people getting 80 years old on average.)

Cerberus

I'm not sure what your point is here.

RegDwighт

I am not making a point. I am asking you a question.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт If you assume no information other than that fact, it should follow.

As explained above.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus what should follow?

Please state it clearly for me. What exactly follows.

Cerberus

11:37 AM

That a random person at a random age has a chance of 1/80 to die every year.

RegDwighт

And that's what I said was completely wrong.

Cerberus

But why?

I'm assuming you know nothing else about this person, and you don't know about the composition of the population, so you assume it's entirely proportional.

RegDwighт

Exactly.

We're keeping it simple.

user87637

Geezis, another heated debate!

Cerberus

So would you say it follows that 1/80 of the population should die every year, then?

Hello, Jasper;.

RegDwighт

11:39 AM

@Cerberus No.

Cerberus

Porque no?

RegDwighт

Because then no population at all would be left.

Cerberus

No births?

RegDwighт

That's what I'm asking you.

You said that 1/80 of the people magically disappear with no replacement.

Cerberus

I didn't say no replacement?

RegDwighт

11:40 AM

You did.

Cerberus

Where?

I guess I assumed births equalled deaths.

RegDwighт

You said 1/80 of the population dies every year. So the population continuously decreases all the time.

Cerberus

By default.

@RegDwighт That does not follow.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus But then 0% of the population dies every year.

Cerberus

Why?

RegDwighт

11:42 AM

Because the population is then constant, as you just said.

Cerberus

If my cat dies every year but I buy a new one every year, 100 % of my cats still die every year, sadly.

That would be really sad, in fact.

But my cat population would remain constant at 1.

RegDwighт

Marketing meeting, alas. BBL

Cerberus

@RegDwighт But I understand your assumption now, that "die" means "no replacement". I guess it all depends on one's assumptions. Bai!

Matt Эллен

12:21 PM

I put all these songs on my phone, knowing that I'll like them. I started playing them in alphabetical order, but I'm still surprised everytime when the next song comes on and I enjoy it.

I have such low expectation that I don't think I'll even know what I like

Mitch

@Cerberus You should get a dog.

Matt Эллен

He is a dog

MετάEd

12:46 PM

bones all around

cyberskull

@Cerberus it appears that Twink has settled down.

Matt Эллен

finally got married, eh? Got kids on the way?

cyberskull

well...let's just say he's not uncontrollable anymore.

he just needed a pal

In my humblest opinion, it doesn't say much for society if some people have to come on the internet to find friendship and attention...

Matt Эллен

people don't

some people do

there are plenty of people who don't use the internet and still have friends

cyberskull

thank you for the edit :-)

Matt Эллен

12:57 PM

:D

Matt Эллен

1:14 PM

Hiya @KitFox

KitFox

hiya

Matt Эллен

How's the office today?

KitFox

cold

I can't figure out how to wrap my right hand.

Matt Эллен

why are you wrapping your right hand?

KitFox

I did a good job on my left, but I can't seem to reverse it for the right side.

Matt Эллен

1:17 PM

oh, to keep it warm?

KitFox

For practice, but also for warmth.

My husband got me a heavy bag this weekend.

:DDDD

Matt Эллен

Why is it heavy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

is that a euphemism?

KitFox

I got some hot pink hand wraps.

A heavy bag. For punching.

Dude.

Matt Эллен

oh! nice :D

KitFox

1:19 PM

rolls eyes

Matt Эллен

I don't even lift

KitFox

I used to do kung fu.

Mitch

@MattЭллен Well, there you go. They've all survived so far.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch good point

KitFox

Nothing quite as nice as working over a bag when you're pissed off.

But it's been eleven years or so and I can't remember how to wrap my hands.

Mitch

1:20 PM

@KitFox start with your right.

KitFox

Then I have to unwrap my left...

Mitch

@KitFox that still sounds like it should be a euphemism but for what I have no idea.

@KitFox get those put-on-by-yourself punching gloves that they have for boxerobics.

Matt Эллен

well, bag is slang for "woman you don't like"

KitFox

@Mitch Do I look like a hack to you?

Matt Эллен

maybe there's a euphemism in there somewhere

Mitch

1:22 PM

@KitFox Probably not. I don't know what a hack looks like.

Matt Эллен

hack GIS

if you merge all those pictures together you get an average idea of what a hack looks like.

Mitch

Oh. No, Kit does not look like a hack.

KitFox

Yes, I look something like Batman.

Mitch

"working over a bag, a heavy bag" -> "(doing something to) a large woman you don't like"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен No no no. A hack is like the code I found once in my production codebase. There was a form, in an iframe, on a page. The submit button was in the outer frame. In order to submit the form, it called iframename.hiddensubmitbutton.click();

Mitch

1:25 PM

@KitFox In costume?

KitFox

There, well, this will do.

@Mitch Uh. Sure. Yes.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ha ha. Yes, that is a hack. Well, sometimes hacks are done by good people for good reasons that will become bad in the long run.

KitFox

God damn users ignoring instructions.

punches stuff

Yep, that feels about right.

Mitch

@KitFox Oh. That helmet and breast plate do not look comfortable then.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 classy. no way someone could exploit that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:27 PM

@Mitch I changed it to call iframename.form.submit().

@MattЭллен well, it was an internal app. But still, wtf.

Johan Larsson

@KitFox have you controlled your versions woman?

Mitch

@KitFox stupid users. Why don't you just force them to not be able to do stupid stuff. Give them options but only out of a set of one.

e.g. "Do you want to continue? Options: Yes."

KitFox

A pop-up: Are you a teacher leader?

User clicks "yes"

Mitch

@JohanLarsson Her versions woman is three deployments out of synch.

KitFox

Response: You LIE! Now your account is deleted, bitch.

Mitch

1:29 PM

@KitFox they're leading from behind.

Matt Эллен

0

Q: Is the place for the king / queen's feet on a throne called the 'threshold' of the throne?

Is the place for the king / queen's feet on a throne called the 'threshold' of the throne? The place for the feet can be seen in this picture:

single-word-requests

photograph of a computer screen

Johan Larsson

@Mitch not a good thing right?

Matt Эллен

points to the first person to print it off, scan in the print and post a screen grab

Mitch

dodges pointing finger

@JohanLarsson I have great respect for Versions women. They're doing all the real work.

Johan Larsson

Ok, I trust you.

Mitch

1:41 PM

Excellent! Do you want me to hold that bag of cash for you? You know, lighten the load. I'll be right behind you even if you don't hear me.

@MattЭллен: I was going to say something clever but everybody cleaned up:

@MattЭллен: He's being categorical... for some interpretation of categorical. That is, he's using 'is' to mean 'is and nothing else'. — Mitch 1 min ago

KitFox

Oi! I just...

tch

EnglishMaster

Guys, anyone familiar with as3?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I don't know what you mean by this. He was saying "threshold can only mean doorway" or there abouts.

Mitch

@KitFox just punch some more.

KitFox

It doesn't mean this because it means that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:44 PM

Matt Эллен

perhaps he meant "the only meaning for threshold I can find is doorway"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm out of paper, so maybe someone else can print that

KitFox

Is that a camera shot of the...

Matt Эллен

but that's not what he said.

Mitch

@KitFox yeah. that's what I mean.

EnglishMaster

1:44 PM

On web applications, if you have to deal with large files such as game or picture (such as 8mb game). What is the best approach to do it reliably without making the web application sluggish?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nice :D

KitFox

@Mitch Right. Which is wrong.

Mitch

@MattЭллен it's what he meant.

@KitFox it's not wrong. meaning it can be right. one meaning of 'is' is bidirectional, not just subset.

EnglishMaster

I have noticed if you directly save this 8MB data into a bytearray then program will easily become sluggish.

Mitch

Then don't do that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:46 PM

@EnglishMaster It depends on your platform. Consider just writing it to disk.

EnglishMaster

But on web application, it's not reliable to save this data into local file system (disk).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

where is my damn coffee...

@EnglishMaster Why not?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 did you check the printer?

EnglishMaster

On Flash, it will show up a annoying message saying like "Will you allow this program to access your harddrive?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch that explains why it's printing so fast!

@EnglishMaster Oh, you're referring to the client.

EnglishMaster

1:48 PM

Yeah

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but the colors are a little runny.

EnglishMaster

It's impossible stream this kind of data too (and I'm lazy).

Matt Эллен

why is it impossible to stream? does the user need it all at once?

KitFox

@Mitch It may be true that threshold means doorway, but that is not the reason it does not mean the thing you put your feet on.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So... you have a flash app that gets sluggish when you load 8mb data into it.

EnglishMaster

1:50 PM

@MattЭллен Sort of

It's currently being built but I have a strong feeling that it's going to get sluggish

because i've experienced it before

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So try to make it smaller than 8mb

or plan ahead to break up the pieces so that they're not all needed at once

Or use a different technology

EnglishMaster

Yeah, that's my first plan. Deal with games that are small enough for web apps (maybe 3~5 MB)

But I wish to be able to run any games including 8 MB ones

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you might need to figure out what, exactly, are the conditions that make it sluggish

Mitch

@KitFox Yes, I agree, but that was the OPs intention of the use of 'is/means', 'threshold means doorway...and nothing else (like a footrest)'

KitFox

@Mitch I'm sure it was. So OP needed to rewrite that to make the correct assertion.

Mitch

1:54 PM

'correct' -> 'more explicit'

Matt Эллен

Sweet used the word so. Sweet was asserting a conclusion based on the fact that threshold means doorway. Sweet's answer was incorrect.

Mitch

wait..are you putting your boxing gloves on?

Matt Эллен

what Sweet wrote and what Sweet meant may have been different things, but that's not the point. I can only argue with what Sweet wrote.

Mitch

actually, I don't know anymore because the comment thread has all been deleted, Kit.

Matt Эллен

I suppose I could have said "If you don't mean so edit it your answer to have the words you do mean", but I assumed Sweet could understand English.

Mitch

1:57 PM

@MattЭллен We argue all the time with intentions.

KitFox

@Mitch Me? No, just handwraps this morning. I don't have actual boxing gloves, just bag gloves.

But I was practicing wrapping my hands this morning.

Mitch

I know. It's so hard getting the left one on.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…