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17:00
No. If she thinks it was OK, then she is more likely to do it to children. Her relative is free to continue preying on children as well.
Pretending that nothing serious happened perpetuates the problem.
Okay, I see your point. I just don't think that is a serious risk, and I don't think you can change it anyway. It is already by far the greatest taboo in Western society.
Should the girl's happiness be sacrificed for this hypothetical effect?
It is a serious risk. How can it not be? Her relative is a pedophile.
Pedophiles don't just stop being pedophiles.
@Cerberus What are you, some kind of bleeding heart? She'll be fine. She doesn't feel bad about it.
Which is why she could end up engaging in the same kind of behavior.
Evidence?
Everything everywhere.
Children who are molested are more likely to molest children when they get older.
I think the chain of arguments is too weak: it's chance upon chance.
We could forbid naked photos in public, because it might make people think of sex more, including pedophiles.
Skin in advertisements.
17:09
> a strong causal relationship has been established between child and adolescent offenders and these offenders' own prior victimization, by either adults or other children.
Prudie got another letter, by a single dad who was going to host a sleep-over for his four daughters and their friends. He was afraid they wouldn't allow their children to come if he didn't have an adult women there with him, because, who knows? He might be a pedophile, like every adult, and especially every man. Don't you think this paranoia is extremely harmful?
shrugs
I don't see what that has to do with the conversation.
@KitFox I'm talking about using force and violence against a child (or anyone) versus seduction. Do you think adulterers are also rapists?
You aren't asking logical questions.
@KitFox The whole witchhunt causes this paranoia. That's why I think it should be less extreme that it is now.
17:13
What witchhunt? Her relative is a pedophile.
There's no question about that.
The witchhunt in society as a whole.
Now you're trying to change the topic because you are wrong.
No: I think talking this girl into having a problem just because you want to change her mentality is part of what causes this paranoia.
I'm not talking her into anything.
Her boyfriend is.
17:15
She needs to acknowledge that what her relative did was wrong.
And Prudie is too.
And that her relative is a threat to children.
And that it is her responsibility to defend those children by talking about what happened.
If you see that as a problem, then you have a problem.
The relative probably won't use force or violence against those children.
So it should be fine as long as the children are convinced that they want it?
That's why I said you shouldn't compare rapists to adulterers.
17:17
You are sick.
No, it's just different. Both are and should be illegal.
Then she has a responsibility to report her relative's wrongdoing.
Don't you think?
I don't know.
How can you not know?
What if she wasn't the victim? What if she just witnessed it?
Because you may be causing more harm.
17:18
Would you say she shouldn't say anything?
Decades later? What if the victim just wants to forget?
@Cerberus No, you can't possibly cause more harm. Staying silent allows her relative to do it with impunity to as many children as she can.
Why?
What do you mean why? Are you dumb?
We don't even know what she did exactly.
17:20
As long as no one talks about it, Auntie can finger as many little girls as she wants because there is no one to stop her from doing it.
Is that likely?
How can you think that is less harmful than allowing a child to just block it out and forget about it?
If she did it only once to this girl?
@Cerberus Uh, yes. Duh.
@Cerberus That doesn't happen. Not ever.
Then why didn't she do it with this girl more than once?
Is this really worth turning the girl's life into a mess decades later?
17:22
Who knows? Maybe she did. Maybe there wasn't opportunity. Maybe the girl felt like something was wrong afterwards and avoided her.
@Cerberus I don't care about the girl's life. She'll be fine. It's the pedophile that needs to be brought to justice.
How would you feel if your boyfriend forced you to go to the police and basically turn your life upside-down and make the whole family go crazy?
My boyfriend wouldn't have to force me to do the right thing.
And the family? Well, fuck them. I don't protect people who harm children.
I do care about the girl's life. Now, if there was violence, that would make it so bad in my opinion that perhaps even decades later something should be done.
@KitFox The family doesn't know: they will cry and be in shock and have to pick sides and it will all be a mess for years. No normal family life for the next decade. Stress. Hear attacks.
Wow, I am crying a river.
So it is better to allow children to be molested than to do that.
So all your care about is revenge, not the girl or all the people around the girl.
17:26
I am glad I saw the light.
It's not "allow". It was decades ago!
She was decades ago. What about all the children since then?
I don't understand how you can draw a sharp line between this and something violent. Rape is the worst type of violence I can think of.
@KitFox What if there were none? Apparently, nobody said or did anything.
@aediaλ Cerb thinks that sex crimes are usually one-offs.
17:27
@aediaλ Sure, rape is violence.
@Cerberus Because sex abusers thrive on silence.
Because every single victim feels just like that girl does.
"It was just me, I was special. It was OK because I wanted to. It felt good."
If you would speak up, and the boy friend would, even after decades, is it likely that she touched many other children in a way that causes more harm than to this girl?
12 mins ago, by KitFox
So it should be fine as long as the children are convinced that they want it?
So really you think pedophilia is OK, as long as the children like it?
I think that makes it a whole lot less harmful than with force or violence, yes, as you can see in this girl, who apparently doesn't feel she was harmed at all.
@KitFox You keep trying to make me say "pedophilia is OK". It's not. I have said this 10 times already: it should be illegal either way, but my point is just that it's far worse if there was force or violence.
And conflating the two is bad.
But if you agree that it should be illegal, then why would you not want to send a pedophile to jail?
You keep arguing that.
17:31
I'm not saying I wouldn't.
Yes, you are.
I am saying, however, that the punishment should be in proportion to the actual harm caused.
You are saying she shouldn't report this crime.
Shouldn't even acknowledge it as a crime.
I do think it's harsh to just say that a victim has the responsibility of reporting. It has got to be hard to have the courage to come forward. And it's hard enough for many victims to be believed and taken seriously the moment afterward, when there is evidence; it is certainly more difficult years later.
Even if crimes are still being committed.
Because those crimes aren't as bad as violent ones.
17:33
I said maybe she shouldn't. Not because the relative wasn't wrong, but because reporting it would cause a lot of harm to herself and her family.
No. The relative caused the harm.
So to me her silence is wrong but understandable. I should hope that in her shoes I would come forward, but I can see how it would be hard to do so.
Would you turn your mother in if she had evaded taxes ten years ago? She might have to go to prison for years now.
Yes.
Of course.
That would be great.
Interesting.
Okay, your husband, then. Wrong example.
17:34
@Cerberus I couldn't.
Not legally.
Why not?
Would I turn my science teacher in for improper conduct, even after not speaking to him for a year? Yes. I would and I did.
No, I'm talking about tax evasion.
Not turning him in encourages bad behaviour.
Because we are a single tax entity and I would not incriminate myself.
Oh aha.
His brother, then.
17:37
Maybe. Probably not.
It's not easy.
I would turn him in for fondling my child's genitals.
Taxes are a different matter.
Both are crimes.
Strike that. I would probably kill him for it.
@Cerberus Different kinds of crimes.
Still crimes.
17:38
Yeah. And?
I'm just trying to say reporting crimes from long ago cause a lot of problems and grief to people.
So it should be OK to allow pedophiles to run free because I think tax evasion is not that big a deal?
And I don't think it's fair to force someone to turn against her own family in every situation.
There are a lot of crimes I would never bother turning someone in for. Jaywalking. Driving ten miles an hour over the speed limit. Drinking before it's turned midnight on your twenty-first birthday.
Are those really crimes?
Not just ehh what do you call those...
17:40
You don't seem to understand that this crime may have happened ten years ago, but the likelihood is that the relative is still committing these crimes.
"Offences"?
@Cerberus Misdemeanors.
Right, that.
So if you knew that your uncle was molesting children, you wouldn't turn him in?
@KitFox I don't know about that. Statistics are usually about the worst kind, with force.
17:42
So if you knew that your uncle was offering children ice cream in exchange for blowjobs, and none of them seemed to mind it, you wouldn't turn him in?
Because it wasn't the worst kind of child abuse.
@KitFox I most probably would make sure he would be unable to continue, in whatever way possible. But the first thing I would want to do is get all the facts I can get. What is he doing to these children? Is he merely showing them pornography as a joke? That's a sex crime.
It was just regular old child abuse.
@Cerberus How are you going to prevent it?
I would do something, yes.
@KitFox Probably either report him to the police or have him committed.
And if he did it to you as a kid, and your boyfriend said "Dude, your uncle was some kind of freak, you need to do something about it"?
Would you ask your uncle?
But I don't think that's what the relative did in the question.
17:44
There was consensual sexual activity.
It wasn't entirely clear, but it seemed like she was merely having the child pose in a sexual position or something.
She said there was consensual sexual activity.
I'm pretty sure.
Where's the link? I'll read it again.
@KitFox It's really hard to imagine, because I have no idea what that would be like.
Let me look it up...
I wouldn't be as adamant about standing in a sexy way.
14 hours ago, by Cerberus
> Q. Hard to Discuss: I love my girlfriend very much, but there has been a topic that I find it hard to discuss, and it always leaves me upset. When she was 11, she noticed a relative (in her 30s) in a sexual manner who then took advantage of that and engaged in sexual activities with her.
14 hours ago, by Cerberus
> My girlfriend insists that she was not molested and that she was never really a child and participated willingly. While I reluctantly believe that she is OK with that, I think that woman is a monster for taking advantage of someone so young. My girlfriend doesn't think that her relative is disgusting. She herself isn't a pedophile, but her defense of that woman leaves me angry. I don't know what to think about any of this or how I should feel.
Hmm it's rather unclear.
"Noticed in a sexual manner"?
17:48
Thought her aunt was hot probably.
The relative was touching herself, and invited the child to imitate her?
I don't really want to think about the possibilities.
Classic pedophile technique. Cultivate the sexual so the child is interested in exploring the possibilities and feels like she has initiated things.
Sure.
You should think about it. You are advocating that that woman has a right to be free.
Okay, an unrelated question.
You know there are and were societies where it's normal for 12-y-o's to engage in certain kinds of sexual behaviour with adults.
How do you feel about that?
17:51
In what sense?
Do you think those children are seriously harmed if there is no force and everyone feels it is normal in that society?
I think marrying girls off at a young age is really bad.
Yes.
@Cerberus Child abuse from a long time ago has already caused a lot of grief. Are you saying don't rock the boat because incidents that caused a person ongoing suffering happened a long time ago? You're not really saying that, are you?
@Robusto He's concerned about the effect on the family and the criminal. They might feel bad and make the victim feel bad too.
@Robusto This was about a situation where the girl says it was perfectly fine and she has no problem with it.
17:54
And so the pedophile should be allowed to keep molesting children because she's not violent.
So my question is, if the victim is fine, wouldn't you just be creating a bigger problem?
@KitFox I didn't say that.
And it was decades ago.
No, because there will be more victims.
So you say.
It is a statistical certainty.
The very least problem that pedophiles cause is that they destroy a child's innocence.
17:56
But, to return to this exotic/historical society, what's your main reason for condemning it?
@Cerberus It may not be that simple, despite what she says.
Or it may be.
How old was the girl involved?
Eleven.
Her relative was 30-something.
The brief description sounds every bit like what sexual predators do.
And she sounds like a classic victim.
That's too young. Sorry. She cannot make an informed consent to have sex at that age.
17:59
1 hour ago, by Cerberus
I repeat my position: you should never touch children, but making a huge deal out of it later may cause more harm than it does good.
Especially with some older relative.

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