English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwighт

15:11

Hm. A whopping two interesting questions this morning. Can't remember when that last happened.

Cerberus

Where?

RegDwighт

2

Q: Why are identical rhymes inferior in English poetry?

From “War Pigs” by Black Sabbath: Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses In English poetry, a perfect rhyme has identical vowels but different onsets, like come and sum. An identical rhyme has identical vowel and onset, like come and become. Pairs of homonyms ...

0

Q: in a while or for a while

I recently got a message that says "Haven't hear anything from you in a while" . I always thought that the right way to say this would be to use for insdead of in. Are both versions correct? Would there be a difference in meaning?

prepositions

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I'll give you this one.

RegDwighт

I find the other one more interesting.

The first one doesn't even necessarily have an answer. "That's just how it works."

About the second one, I have been thinking for a full hour now.

Cerberus

Haha.

RegDwighт

15:18

Still waters run deep.

Cerberus

Apparently.

RegDwighт

Not haha, it's really interesting.

Cerberus

Uhuh.

RegDwighт

How in the past, "for a while" is a closed interval while "in a while" only has one end, but when you're talking about the future it's the other way round.

Well, not the other way round, but it's for that's open, and in doesn't even exist.

And then, of course, there's "every once in a while", which is different still, because it's a different in.

It is quite interesting.

Cerberus

This isn't about the word while, is it?

RegDwighт

15:21

Nah, the while is the same in all cases. Just some noun. Could be Jabberwocky instead, if you ask me. Wouldn't change anything.

Cerberus

Is it related to for loops?

RegDwighт

It's all about in vs. for, past vs. future, and idioms vs. non-idioms.

@Cerberus that's a good question, but if anything, it's the for loops that are related to this one, not the other way round.

These expressions predate programming languages.

Cerberus

That's...loopy.

RegDwighт

No, this is.

Funny how Fruit Loops are neither fruit nor loops. Kind of like the Federal Reserve.

@slowdown ^

And we've come full loop!

Cerberus

You could say in defines mainly the boundaries of a period, like being in an (otherwise empty) box, whereas for indicates that something occupies every point within the box.

For applies to the entire space within the box.

RegDwighт

15:27

True, but I am not sure how much that applies in this case. I mean, "in a while" is a single unit. It's not "somewhere inside the while".

Cerberus

But it is.

RegDwighт

Or perhaps originally it is.

Or still is.

Now you're confusing me.

Cerberus

"It is not so that I have seen you somewhere inside the while."

The not is confusing you.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus I guess what I'm saying is, in a box is somewhere inside the box. It's not "it fills the entire box out".

In a while, though, does fill out the entire while, start to finish.

Cerberus

"For the entire inside of the while, it is so that I haven't seen you."

@RegDwighт That's just because the meanings converge due to the negation.

RegDwighт

15:30

I mean, ultimately it's clear how you would get from here to there. I haven't seen you in this point inside the while, and in this point, and in this, and when summed up you get the entire while.

Cerberus

But...that's not what it says.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus right. The negation is not to be forgotten.

Cerberus

We don't say I have seen you in a while because it is a bit redundant, useless.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus I think I will take a break for some soup and then resume with a fresh mind.

Cerberus

A break for some soup, or in some soup?

RegDwighт

15:32

Like, when I can say, I haven't seen an idea anywhere in this mind.

Cerberus

Yes, like that.

And you can also say, it is true for his entire mind that I haven't seen an idea there.

RegDwighт

Also we're just the two of us. I'm sure my answer will solicit comments if you let it rest for a while.

@Cerberus I could say that, but it would be untrue.

Cerberus

I'll let it rest in a while.

RegDwighт

I'll let it rest in a peace.

Soup!

Cerberus

@RegDwighт But it means the same thing as what you said!

Bai.

RegDwighт

15:33

Stop pinging me, I am in a soup.

TemporaryNickName

damn, I need to tell my teacher tomorrow what's my final project is going to be

RegDwighт

World domination.

TemporaryNickName

I was going to read up HTTP specification because I have planned to build a PHP web server

RegDwighт

Sorry, but that fails just a tad short of world domination.

TemporaryNickName

Do you reckon a person can read the whole HTTP specification in few hours?

RegDwighт

15:35

Why would a person do that in the first place?

You only need to read the bits you need.

TemporaryNickName

@RegDwighт just for fun

RegDwighт

I think the preamble alone is like 42 pages.

TemporaryNickName

@RegDwighт Probably yes, I think I'm just going to read the handshake part in detail

and read the rest while developing

RegDwighт

Then 42 pages of how the preamble relates to the introduction. Then 42 pages of introduction. Then 42 pages of tables of contents. Then a foreword by Tim Berners-Lee on how he hasn't read any of this shit.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Why are you still for here? I will have to continue pinging you now.

RegDwighт

15:37

@Cerberus not if I ban you for that!

Or if I ban you in that!

@TemporaryNickName I'm just saying, world domination is fun, too. And you don't have to read anything.

Cerberus

Nooo...

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт Fruity loops is also a pretty nice program for programming beats.

RegDwighт

Just $99?

Is that what you need these days to "compose, arrange, record, edit, mix and master professional quality music"?

Johan Larsson

dunno, did not see a price, sounds cheap

RegDwighт

No wonder professional quality music is shit.

TemporaryNickName

15:40

@RegDwighт I think TBL pretty much remembers every single details about HTTP

Johan Larsson

I think pros use Cubase or something else, played a little with FL when younger and it was fun

RegDwighт

@TemporaryNickName how is that a contradiction to him not reading the specs? If anything it means he doesn't need to read them.

TemporaryNickName

maybe he does not read them

Johan Larsson

16:02

@Cerberus the transcript from tonight was awesome, I laughed a lot, also interesting :D

Cerberus

16:13

@JohanLarsson Wow, that must have taken you some time!

RegDwighт

I think the Troy ounce is outdated. What everyone is using these days is the Troll ounce.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт You will love this.

rcmap.hatnote.com/#nl,de,fr,en,es,ru,ja,id

Live map of Wikipedia edits.

Yes, a map. With locations based on IP addresses, probably.

RegDwighт

I'd expect the activity to be way higher.

Cerberus

Yeah, so did I.

RegDwighт

Sunday.

Cerberus

16:27

Yeah, Sunday should be busy.

Then again, Murkins and Asians are asleep.

Or should be.

RegDwighт

Oh I actually meant I could imagine Sundays being slow.

Cerberus

!

But Sunday afternoon/evening is prime Internet time!

That's why everyone and their mother lets Ebay auctions end on Sunday around 8.

Or at least on Sunday.

RegDwighт

a) not sure about that, and b) prime Internet time != prime editing Wikipedia time.

Cerberus

A.) Trust me. B.) Why ! ?

RegDwighт

Yes, eBay. When you're busy bidding on eBay, you're not busy editing Wikipedia.

Cerberus

16:30

> Not all recent changes are counted, however. Actually, the website only maps the contributions made by unregistered Wikipedia users, because when they make an edit they are identified only by IP address.

Ahhh.

RegDwighт

And we know for a fact that this very site here is way more active during the week.

Cerberus

Is it?

RegDwighт

By two orders of magnitude.

Cerberus

I guess many people chat in the office.

RegDwighт

Exactly.

Cerberus

16:31

arstechnica.com/business/2013/05/…

RegDwighт

I check Wikipedia a lot at the office, and that's when I also come across things that I fix.

Cerberus

An explanation of the site.

RegDwighт

Ohohoh, now it's flashing like mad.

And now it stopped completely.

Just like with any business everywhere. A store is either completely empty, or you have to line up forever. Nothing in-between.

Johan Larsson

Trying to push eyeballs back in their sockets after dinner

RegDwighт

When I worked in a copy shop, we were either sitting on our hands for hours, or working like mad with a zillion customers in the shop at once.

@JohanLarsson too much chili?

Johan Larsson

16:34

too much much, I blame gf and her cooking

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Yeah, that's probably just the result of random distribution...

Robusto

17:11

@cerb: what would be the Latin for"I'm not always right.but I'M never wrong"?

Johan Larsson

hej @WendiKidd

Cerberus

17:38

@Robusto How about this: Verum quidem non semper scio, sed numquam falsum.

"I may not always know the truth, but never error."

Or something like that.

There may be a better way to say it with equal brevity.

Of course you could render the English with more precision, but then it would become longer.

Now I must go, adieu!

Andrew Leach

18:21

@Robusto How about: Non semper sum rectus, sed numquam falsus.

tchrist

19:18

@AndrewLeach Did you intentionally invert the more normal sum and rectus order there, perhaps because of the leading non semper?

(I’m not really here.)

Andrew Leach

It scans better.

Latin uses case as well as word-order. It doesn't always need to be in Reverse Polish Notation.

And it sets rectus directly adjacent to the second, contradictory, clause.

Cerberus

20:54

@AndrewLeach I think rectus has a moral connotation when used with a person.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist does this mean it is likely that dogs are smarter than cats?

Cerberus

And than humans.

Johan Larsson

how humans are farthest away from the diagonal

goldfish surprises a bit :D

oh, yet another fail, I misread the wolf dot :D

and too late to edit, story of my chatlife :D

Cerberus

21:09

Wolf dot?

Johan Larsson

In the diagram, I misread the arrow/leader/label

Cerberus

Ahh.

Johan Larsson

You know Latin?

Cerberus

21:31

Sure.

Don't you?

Johan Larsson

not much, I know grus grus, have you met him?

Cerberus

No?

Cerberus

22:01

Sooo.

What's everybody doing?

Knitting socks again, huh?

Johan Larsson

reading

Cerberus

Good.

Something interesting?

Johan Larsson

Work related, one from aedia's list. It is ok but I think I switcged from reading to scanning.

Feel I need to at least read a few books for the superviser thing.

Cerberus

Ah hmm.

The superviser thing?

Johan Larsson

you found The prophet yet?

@Cerberus I'm supervising a woman who writes her thesis on ergonomy and usability.

Cerberus

22:09

Ahh.

Yeah, you want to be properly prepared.

Although she will probably believe whatever you tell her!

Johan Larsson

I don't know much about it really. The idea is for me to help her out with practical stuff and such but feel it is common courtesy to be a little interested also.

@Cerberus why?

because I hang with you guys? :D

(that is a good reason imo, except I don't really qualify :)

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Because...you're her supervisor?

So you are supervising a thesis that is outside your own field?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus oh, if so it would be even worse if I was completely clueless, maybe?

@Cerberus yes, she has one proper supervisor in school and I was very careful to tell her that I was not experienced. Maybe supervisor is a misnomer but that is what they call t.

Cerberus

Hmm.

I think you're probably underestimating your own expertise.

Like say, "OMG I don't know anything at all about American English! I'm just a British professor of English, I couldn't possibly advise you!". Excessive modesty?

Johan Larsson

Maybe, it is what it is any way, think she enjoys it thus far and that must be good.

Are you a professor?

Cerberus

22:20

Good. And nope.

I do have to tell kids I tutor that I don't know enough about the subject, though.

If I have to explain quantum mechanics to them, I really need to see their book first!

Johan Larsson

But you are a teacher?

Somewhat interesting article I don't agree I think but comments brings up an interesting point.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Why not?

Costs and benefits should be and are a part of a functioning system of justice.

Of course the problem is that you cannot quantify many costs and benefits, so it will never be a mathematical problem.

But you should quantify what you reasonably can. An important caveat is that some social scientists are hybrid in the sense that hybris leads them to think they can quantify and predict far more than they actually can.

Johan Larsson

22:44

Game theory probably applies for quantifying, still think the comment about war on drugs is more interesting.

21 mins ago, by Johan Larsson

But you are a teacher?

Johan Larsson

23:03

nite

Cerberus

23:49

Bai!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…