English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:08

It’s a trick question.

Turns out our perception of voicing is tied to our perception of aspiration.

Cerberus

Is it?

tchrist

Because Romance doesn’t aspirate unvoiced consonants in initial position the way English does, English speakers frequently mishear those as the voiced versions, since if it doesn’t have an aspiration they assume it is voiced.

Takes a while to get over that.

Cerberus

Ah I see.

Yes, Dutch has unaspirated consonants too.

tchrist

I saw that. I was a bit surprised.

Cerberus

Oh, yeah?

Dutch is a very flat language, low on all kinds of articulation.

tchrist

00:12

You seem to be able to start words with unvoiced stops without introducing an aspiration the way English does — and I believe, German, too.

p/t/k words.

Cerberus

German has aspiration too, yes.

French does not.

tchrist

Of course not.

It’s Romance.

Cerberus

I guess we have the French consonants.

tchrist

I don’t know about the Nordics.

Cerberus

We're in between France, England, and Germany, and it shows in many, many ways.

tchrist

00:13

Wait, you have dentals???

I thought you had the same T/D as English and German, not like French and Italian and Spanish.

Cerberus

Nope.

tchrist

Which one?

Cerberus

None of the occlusive consonants are aspirated.

tchrist

I wasn’t referring to aspiration, but dental vs alveolar T/D.

In Italian, the T/D is in a different place.

Cerberus

Oh, I'd have to think about that...

tchrist

00:14

This contributes to English speakers getting confused by it.

I think all Romance is dental there and all Germanic is alveolar, but there may be some slop on the edges I don’t know about. Like Romanian.

Cerberus

I don't think I can hear any difference besides aspiration.

tchrist

Voiceless dental stop

The voiceless dental stop is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is t_d. This is the symbol for the voiceless alveolar stop with the "bridge below" diacritic meaning dental. Features Features of the voiceless dental stop: Varieties of the voiceless dental stop {| class=wikitable ! IPA !! Description |- | style="font-size:24px" | || plain |- | style="font-size:24px" | || aspirated |- | style="font-size:24px" | || palatalized |- | st...

Are you putting your tongue at the front of the hard palate, on the coronal ridge, or are you touching it to your teeth?

> True dental consonants are relatively uncommon. In the Romance languages, /t/ is often called dental. However, the rearmost contact (which is what gives a consonant its distinctive sound) is actually alveolar, or perhaps denti-alveolar; The difference between the /t/ sounds of the Romance languages and English is not so much where the tongue contacts the roof of the mouth as which part of the tongue makes the contact.

> In English, it is the tip of the tongue (such sounds are termed apical), whereas in a number of Romance languages, it is the flat of the tongue just above the tip (such sounds are called laminal).

I think this distinction extends to the other Germanic languages, but I do not know that for sure.

AHAH!

The Spanish Netherlands has a dental t.

Er, Flanders.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist stupid sexy Flanders.

Cerberus

Heh.

tchrist

They’re positively phlegmatic.

Cerberus

00:20

They are romantic.

tchrist

@Cerberus Apparently so.

Cerberus

I can't really tell the different between these things, I have to say.

I can't filter out the aspiration.

I do know that Germans aspirate more than Englishmen.

tchrist

Only because they’re louder, so they’re sending more air out. :)

Cerberus

If you're faking a German accent, you will want to exaggerate the aspiration, won't you?

Haha.

In fact, what's noticeable about a German conversation that you can't understand is that you hear lots of sibilants, s and ʃ.

I think the diphthongs may be noticeable in English?

tchrist

The intervocalic d in Spanish and Portuguese cada (“each”) is exactly like the th in English the. When the d occurs at the start of a word or after an L, it switches from voiced fricative to voiced occlusive, but the tongue/teeth position does not change. That is a dental d.

@Cerberus We don’t even realize we’re doing off-glides in most of the things you perceive as diphthongs, you know. Yes, know is “rightly” spelled with one, but no is not, and sounds the same.

Our only answer to the cunt question is from a new user named butts. I am unamused.

0

A: Is it offensive to call a redhead a "ginger"?

I would guess that 'ginger' is about offensive as 'blonde' and for all the same reasons and in the same contexts. However, I'd further guess that there was a slight uptick in offensiveness when ginger started to be used as the first half of the rhyming-slang phrase 'ginger beer' to mean 'queer' w...

Ginger beer = queer???

Anyway, isn’t it ginger ale? :)

Maybe ginger ale = pale.

Cerberus

00:38

@tchrist So then English doesn't have a "dental" d?

@tchrist Yes, and also i.

tchrist

@Cerberus Mostly not. Only in a few dialects, like those who use a voiced stop for this instead of a fricative.

Cerberus

Oh, I think ginger ale and ginger beer were complicated...I forgot.

tchrist

It’s in the chart up there.

@Cerberus Is there a difference between those?

Cerberus

I forgot.

tchrist

k

Cerberus

00:39

There may be.

I have even forgotten whether or not Dutch gemberbier contained alcohol.

tchrist

The ones we drink do not.

> Brewed ginger beer originated in Yorkshire in England in the mid-18th century[1] and became popular in Britain, the United States, and Canada, reaching a peak of popularity in the early 20th century.

Ginger beer

Ginger beer is a carbonated drink, that is flavored primarily with ginger and sweetened with sugar or artificial sweeteners. History Brewed ginger beer originated in Yorkshire in England in the mid-18th century and became popular in Britain, the United States, and Canada, reaching a peak of popularity in the early 20th century. Brewed ginger beer was brought to the Ionian Islands by the British Army in the 19th century, and is still made as a local specialty known as "tsitsibíra" (τσιτσιμπίρα) by villagers in rural Corfu. Today ginger beer is almost always produced as a soft drink. Gi...

Ginger ale

--> | introduced = 1851 | discontinued = | color = Golden | flavour = Ginger | variants = Golden ginger ale and dry ginger ale | related = | website = }} Ginger ale is a carbonated soft drink flavored with ginger in either the Golden-style, closer to the ginger beer original, credited to the American doctor Thomas Cantrell, and the (Pale) Dry-style created by Canadian John McLaughlin, which is a paler drink with a much milder ginger-flavor to it. History Dr. Thomas Cantrell, an American apothecary and surgeon, claimed to have invented ginger ale and marketed i...

The Reed’s stuff is good.

Cerberus

There's also root beer.

tchrist

Yes.

Ginger is a root.

:)

Cerberus

Yes.

So I never know what's what.

tchrist

Root beer is made with sassafras.

Cerberus

00:44

What the...

tchrist

Do you not care for it? Most Europeans of my acquaintance are grossed out by it.

But you can’t make a root beer float without it!

:)

> The primary ingredient, artificial sassafras flavoring, is complemented with other flavors. Common flavorings are vanilla, wintergreen, cherry tree bark, licorice root, sarsaparilla root, nutmeg, acacia, anise, molasses, cinnamon, clove, and honey.

> Both alcoholic and non-alcoholic root beers have a thick and foamy head when poured, often enhanced by the addition of cassava extract.

Cerberus

Sarsaparilla and sassafras, of course.

I don't remember whether I have ever drunk it.

tchrist

Root beer ingredients.

No A&W stands in Holland then, I guess.

It was the first fast-food joint that had pull-up curbside service.

> In the UK Asda and Sainsbury's apparantly sell Carter's Root Beer. Waitrose sells an Australian brand - Bundaberg's. Apparantly the A&W restaurant chain shares restaurant space with KFC in Derby, Clayton and Glasgow (presumably in the same way KFC shares space with Taco Bell in Ontario) and they have the A&W root beer on tap.

Cerberus

@tchrist That's very rare here.

tchrist

It’s rare here now, too. It’s an old-timey thing.

Cerberus

00:50

Maybe McDonalds along highways have that.

tchrist

But A&W was the one place that had it.

This is different.

Cerberus

Wait, you don't mean drive-through food?

tchrist

I don’t.

You pull into a stall.

Cerberus

Then it must be an alien concept.

A stall, really?

tchrist

Lemme find a picture.

That isn’t very good.

Each stall had a menu and a push-button speaker, or else there were girls who would bring you your food on a tray that would attach to your car window.

It was a drive-in restaurant.

Like a drive-in movie.

Cerberus

00:55

People would sit there and eat?

tchrist

Got it!

There was no indoor seating.

Kinda unusual, eh?

Look at the moving pictures at awesomeawdrivein.com

> The A&W Drive-In specializes in delicious food, ice cold root beer served in frosty mugs and fast, courteous service, either at their carside speakers, new 50's dining room, or large picnic area.

The curbside service was a big thing.

There are still plenty of A&Ws around, although very few in the old style.

People just pull up to the stalls.

You don’t have to get out of your car. They bring your food to you on a tray and you eat there. The tray attaches to the window.

> This isn't like your father's A&W Drive-In. Wait a minute ... yeah it is. In fact, it's like your grandfather's too (not that there is anything wrong with that ... we love your crazy gramps). There aren't a lot of places left where you can hoist a frosty mug of sarsaparilla out the window of your car, making A&W a welcome change of pace.

Wow, it says there are only 64 left that have the old-style curbside service like that.

Cerberus

@tchrist Nice "girl".

tchrist

We’re very modern here.

You oughta see his checkered skirt.

Cerberus

Sure.

tchrist

In some places, the girls were actually on rollerskates, believe it or else.

With trays of food. And glass mugs.

A&W gives you a free rootbeer float on your birthday.

Oh, they still do. Cool.

> Free A&W Root Beer Float for your Birthday. That's right - a delicious A&W Root Beer Float for your birthday, on the house. Plus monthly coupons and other exclusive offers when you join the Mug Club mailing list.

Robusto

01:30

@tchrist As portrayed in George Lucas's American Graffiti

If that helps @Cerb.

Cerberus

@Robusto Naturally.

I know everything about American Graffiti.

Robusto

@Cerberus Are you being sarcastic?

Cerberus

Would I ever?

winks

Robusto

Have I ever doubted you before?

@Cerberus Hey, is there a Dutch word for ~~cream~~ cottage cheese?

Cerberus

@Robusto I'm not sure there is an exact equivalent.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

01:44

@tchrist they used to make them do that at Sonic, didn't they?

Cerberus

I think we use the German word, Hüttenkäse.

Hmm, the dictionary gives "cottagecheese".

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

We used to go to the Last American Diner in Boulder or Estes Park. Can't remember if they were on skates or not.

Cerberus

There is also kwark, which is more like a special kind of yoghurt.

Robusto

The German word is Schmierkäse, IIRC.

Cerberus

We have smeerkaas.

Robusto

01:46

Anyway, it makes a great pie filling. Seriously.

Cerberus

"Smear cheese".

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, I get the cognate.

Cerberus

Hmm that would have to be something like cream cheese?

Robusto

@Cerberus You use subatomic particles in place of yogurt? How futuristic!

Cerberus

Dutch smeerkaas is normally more cheese, probably not a good idea to combine it with sugar.

@Robusto You mean your yoghurt is quark-free?

Do you also have a radiation-free cell phone?

Robusto

01:48

@Cerberus I haven't checked, but I thought so.

Apr 19 at 0:18, by Robusto

@tchrist Pull up your Spanx and pitch in. You have to put in your own work around here, boy.

See? I looked up the spelling and now Google is following me around with ads for Spanx.

Man, are they ever desperate.

One fucking search and they think I'm a customer.

Cerberus

@Robusto Some interesting protons you must have there.

@Robusto Wow, seriously??

Time to install Adblock.

Robusto

@Cerberus Seriously. One time.

Cerberus

And use Cookie Monster to block Google cookies.

Robusto

Interesting. I will have to consider both of those.

WendiKidd

@Robusto But if you were a customer why would you need to see ads? @.@

Google can be scary.

Cerberus

01:52

Using Adblock also keeps viruses that are distributed through ad networks away.

@WendiKidd Yeah, the advertising business is far from scientific...

Robusto

What was I going to ask you ... oh, yes! How did the Romans get Ulysses from Odysseus? Did the myth happen before Rome and Greece were civilizations?

WendiKidd

When I start getting ads that annoy me, I do 20 or so different google searches for jewelry. Then all my ads are of pretty diamond rings for a few weeks ;)

It feels good to outsmart google, at any rate.

Cerberus

@Robusto Umm yes, I actually don't know. Yes, the Odyssey "happened" in the late bronze age.

So the Mycenaean age, around ehh let's say 1200 BC.

Robusto

Well, but Homer was Greek, ne?

Cerberus

Yes.

It was probably written down around the 9th–8th century.

Robusto

01:56

@WendiKidd Yeah, I dunno. Google has been creeping me out lately.

Cerberus

So during the dark ages.

We don't even know whether Homer existed or whether he was one person.

It was long before Rome became independent, yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus Was that before there was a Latium?

Or an Etruscan civilization? I don't remember those dates.

Cerberus

Italy was Etruscan, yes.

Robusto

Yes, I know that. What I wanted to know was whether Etruscan civilization went back as far as 9th-8th century BCE.

Yay, Adblock plus pulled my Spanx down! Er ... that didn't come out right.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, it did.

(All we know about the history of the Odyssey is that, around the 8th–9th century, stories from the oral tradition were written down.)

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