more than one

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think it is artificial and convoluted, because there are other reasons to omit the otherwise required comma (i.e. there otherwise being too many commas). But I immediately understood what they must be after.

one

"the boy, who attacked the dog, was killed"

the boy who attacked the dog

yes but that implies other boys

otherwise no need for the who qualifier

@Jez yes but in what context?

eh?

The cosmos contains more than one boy

it implies that the dog killed him, not that there are other boys

I got two questions "wrong", one on purpose (I think it's fun to consider of me teaching you wrong, although I know it is generally accepted).

"The boy who attacked the dog" disambiguates that boy from the entire universe of possible boys, but come on.

My sister who lives in New york, my brother who doesn't, and Evelyn

@Cerberus i said both for that because it's generally acknowledged that you can use a possessive or a noun with a gerund

The other one was part of the series about adverbs modifying adjectives and such, which was frankly of a very low quality: lots of random decisions in fringe cases.

i prefer the sound of the possessive though for some reason

I don't get this "who doesn't" nonsense at all

@MattЭллен my brother who doesn't drink is sober, whereas my brother who does isn't

@MattЭллен In that sentence, I would say the comma is necessary and good, although I still wouldn't interpret the lack of a comma the strict way they suggest.

@Jez Yes. I knew that, but I felt defiant.

if i only had one brother, i would always put a comma in there: my brother, who doesn't drink, is sober

@Jez So do I.

or parentheses

my brother (who doesn't drink) is sober

@MattЭллен The claim is that "my brother who doesn't live in new york" suggests that the "who doesn't" disambiguates that brother from the other brother. I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that as a simple continuation of explaining where the siblings live, and anyone who intended that to mean that there must be at least one more brother is an asshole.

@Jez But you might leave out the comma if the sentence were long and full of commas.

@Jez OK, but that doesn't mean Evelyn is your brother

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How about my brother who doesn't drink is boring?

Surely you would read that as suggesting that I had more brothers.

@Cerberus not really an option. if there are too many commas, start putting some stuff in parentheses or paraphrasing into multiple sentences

@Cerberus That's a different kind of sentence.

in that sentence, there are indeed too many commas for comfort which is why we're having trouble parsing it

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The only reason why the omitted comma is acceptable in that other sentence is because it's long, complicated, with lots of commas already.

"My brother who doesn't" is short for "My brother who doens't live in New York" which just tells you where he lives, it does not imply there is another brother, especially when you've alredy said there is a sister who lives in New York.

@Jez Yes, that would be better, although I would still say it was acceptable as it stood, in casual writing.

we seem to have established that it's at best ambiguous

Well, in any other context, it would have been clear, because Evelyn is not normally supposed to be a man.

"This is my sister Susan, who lives in New York, my brother Steve who likes football, and my only other sibling, Dave."

If there is any real ambiguity, yes, then of course you need to recast the sentence.

Dave is not male because of a comma

I would agree that strictly speaking, I would write "my brother, who doesn't" as a parallel to the "my sister, who lives in new york". Anyone who left out that comma on purpose and then used the word "sibling" before "Evelyn", intending the meaning "Evelyn is male and lives in new york", is an asshole.

quite

@MattЭллен How about this. My mother gave birth to two very different children. My brother who doesn't drink, and Kibur the drunkard.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Someone trying to be funny, rather.

I would still take it as parenthetical

@Cerberus My mother gave birth to two very different children. My brother, who doesn't drink, and Kibur, the drunkard. <- wrong? right? different meaning?

@MattЭллен So, if Kibur turns out to be a woman, you think adding a comma wouldn't improve the sentence at all?

no

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Different meaning, that is, in your example you don't know whether Kibur was male or female.

@MattЭллен Then I must strongly disagree with you.

@Cerberus I don't think so.

time to fly

ditto.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I would take into account the fact that less-than-perfect writers are often sloppy with commas, so I would hesitate to draw any firm conclusions either way.

My wife gave birth two two very different children. My son who drinks, and my daughter who doesn't. <- ambiguous? incorrect?

@MattЭллен Bye!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not ambiguous at all, but stylistically suboptimal: you "need" two more commas according to proper style.

And proper style makes a text both easier to read and more pleasant.

@Cerberus suboptimal, maybe. wrong? I don't think so. People don't have commas in their speech. And sometimes they lack pauses either, yet we can understand them just fine.

There is no right or wrong in language.

As an editor, I would correct it, certainly.

@Cerberus There is if the meaning of the sentence is meant to convey one thing but conveys another.

Perhaps.

But, as I said, your last example is not ambiguous anyway.

But it's the same form as your example with kibur.

"Form"? It is a different sentence. Ambiguity cannot be established without consider every aspect of a sentence.

Because you mention son and daughter, there is no ambiguity.

It is merely jarring.

and because the original sentence mentions sister-in-new-york and brother-not-in-new-york the only interpretation I accept as natural is that the third sibling's gender is not stated and their city of residence is also undisclosed.

Who would be so daft as to say sibling after pointing out brother and sister, unless the third child was going through a transsex operation right at that moment?

precisely. Someone so intent on fucking with you might leave out or add in extra commas through malice or stupidity too.

Down with the stingy comma users!

Whether evil or stupid, it should not be tolerated.

You should try reading Chinese sometimes. You're lucky if they even use periods.

@Mitch Agreed.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, instead of periods they had dynasties.

@Robusto Well, they did have a couple periods too

Not enough for a regular cycle, though.

Do they need more?

They need to be more regular.

what are you, a telegraph operator?

Jasper got your message stop will deposit money stop hope you're better soon stop

stop that stop

IF YOU WANT TO DO TELEGRAMS YOU NEED ALL CAPS STOP AM SURE YOU CAN HANDLE THAT STOP ADVISE IF NOT THE CASE END

@Robusto Surely you should minimise the number of words?

ADVISE IF WRONG END

Okay, now I have seen everything. Also, this Internet is now full. Please use a fresh one.

ALWAYS FOUND STRANGE TELEGRAMS CHARGE BY WORD STOP SURELY BY LETTER MORE SENSIBLE END

STOP THIS COMMA STOP IT STOP

YOUR LAST MESSAGE DOESNT PARSE STOP

STOP STOP

START STOP CARRY ON

DONT STOP

YOU LOSER YOU MANAGED TO END A TELEGRAM IN A PREPOSITION STOP

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 there's not much difference between words and letters in English. I'm sure they charge per letter in French.

STOP CARRY ON ISNT A PREPOSITION WITH IS END

WHAT SLASH EVER

I am suspending you for deleting your account.

To quote Malcolm Reynolds, "Well, you can't".

While you're at it, install the "block lols" extension.

@JasperLoy fake what

what? those are totally real eyes.

real lips too

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 bug report. It was supposed to put your face on the pet, not your pet's face on you.

@RegDwighт Technically it should be a spider report.

@RegDwighт also, that is the most obvious joke anyone could make about that website.

plus, you can submit the photos in any order you want

@AndrewLeach ADVISE OTHERWISE

@Robusto Nah. Unambiguous.

How did you ever get 101?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and yet I made it first.

@RegDwighт No. Someone somewhere else on the web might have said it before.

See, he might, but I did.

I win.

leaving again so soon?

@JasperLoy why bother? just leave it alone.

@Carlo: (I know he can't hear me)...did you see this?

John Lawler is all over phonosemantics. I remember you having a question about it a while ago and thought you'd be interested. In Fact, just search here at ELU for phonosemantics and you'll find all sorts of stuff.

@JasperLoy little by little.

@JasperLoy I read that as collision.

which would hurt.

ha ha, but collusion gets you from 24K to 25K, not from 2K to 25K.

@RegDwighт ha ha, that's where I live.

well, behind there.

behind a toilet?

so?

aren't you covered in filth?

the way you say that makes it sound like you think it's not a good thing.

Kinda presumptuous.

it's a talent.

ah, a gold coin from China. yes, you may certainly have one.

@Mitch hm. A question all about pr- and br-. Hm.

@MattЭллен wait, haven't you been behind a toilet lately? filth is not what I would call it.

@Mitch I'll let you be the judge of that. I'm happy not being behind a toilet

ladies! what is the beef between you two?

@RegDwighт I thought it was going to be 'pr- is for women, br- is for men' (or is it the other way round?)

Well the answer is in the picture.

@MattЭллен how do you explain that poop on your shoes? Ha! I bet you also drink milk straight from the bottle.

@Mitch poops on you! I don't drink milk

Hiya @Kit :D

@MattЭллен touche!

What the—?

(probably OJ then)

@KitFox Exactly! It's inconceivable!

(always blame OJ)

ha ha! that's be funny if he didn't actually kill someone.

lol

so it's meta funny.

Two people.

which is funny.

He killed two people.

Well, if he killed two people he also killed someone.

just twice.

double jeopardy

No, he killed someone just once.

You can't kill someone twice.

two counts of murder, but you have to have separate proof of both.

so you have to have two knives

@KitFox I think you can nowadays.

miracles of modern medicine.

So have I missed anything of note today?

quick scan of stuff up above

The telegram stuff was funny.

no

oh, well, there was that

you know 'STOP THIS STOP'

.this.

I was present when an old horse was killed this summer, it was killed twice. I asked the veterinarian about it and he said the procedure was to do it in two ways to be really sure there is no suffering due to some mistake.

I'd rather charge by letter, that way you can use txt speak and 'cul8r' like things.

@JohanLarsson that's not in the rules.

how do you mean?

I killed a rat so many times once, we named him Ratsputin.

you just don't -know- which thing killed the horse. The horse only dies once, you just don't know if it was when he was shot between the eyes or when its heart was extruded through its chest.

@KitFox that means he's still around?

@Mitch ok fair enough, one time two ways

Pfah. We used to extrude mouse hearts while they were still alive.

Wimps.

A little vivisection never hurt...

I had a rat once, I used to keep its dropping in a tin. It was my rat's poo tin

Well, it never hurt me.

@MattЭллен thwack

:D

What is the formal definition of death? No pulse for x minutes? No breath?

Ouch. I'm out of practice on the thwacking.

@JohanLarsson You might as well as if balrogs have wings.

The cessation of cellular respiration.

@JasperLoy true :D

That's my definition.

Uh, yeah.

@JohanLarsson There are lots of cases where people might have no pulse for an extended period of time and not be dead.

I've been dead.

It's not bad.

(I got better.)

phew!

glad it wasn't permanent

Surely the only progress is better?

not that I'm prejudiced against the undead...

How does it get worse?

(Glad it did get better though!)

No, no, I got better. I recovered.

And I'm not undead. I am in a perfectly normal state of being alive.

@KitFox by some definitions of "dead' it's basically impossible for that to be a true statement.

why were you dead?

I choked on my own blood.

oh

Mom says I was dead for 45 minutes, but she's a nutcase, as we've established.

@KitFox hm, that seems unlikely

I'd guess it was more like I wasn't breathing for 15 minutes or so.

(the dead part, not the nutcase part)

@KitFox even that seems unlikely, though not impossible, I guess

Well, I was a baby. They are much more revivable.

Hm.

It's part of the folklore of my family, so who knows what actually happened.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 guess I was just fishing for some edge case.

time to get going. ttyl

Bai!

CU

adjö

c# infinity is smaller than javascript infinity

this is causing me problems

code?

yeah

I'm embarking upon a javascript interpreter

Whoa.

I've started with numbers, because they're easy

but still not easy enough

doing it for fun?

Oh, oh, oh! I did the coolest thing today!

@JohanLarsson yeah, to learn ECMA standard 262 version 5.1

@JasperLoy Yes, I did. Thanks.

@JasperLoy aye. I've got it :)

@KitFox what is that?

It's not as cool as @Matt's stuff...

Kit did the North Pole today.

I converted all the UPCs in the database to barcodes.

nice

Nice euphemism.

lol

have you stored the pictures, or printed them out?

They are part of a query that can be used to generate printable shelf stickers to go with the planograms.

That probably is gibberish, innit?

Coo. Planograms. I remember those.

luckily google knows what a planogram is

Sadly I'm not Google.

aye

@RegDwighт It's the plan for the arrangement of products on the shelf at the store.

I used to design planograms for Payless DIY. Remember them (if you're in the UK)?

@AndrewLeach No, I'm USA all the way.

Sorry. But I appreciate the work.

@KitFox cheap at the bottom, expensive at eye height.

We did get some samples out of it occasionally.

@AndrewLeach no. not at all. I remember Do It All

but not payless

Payless => Focus => Do it all

I see. sort of.

Payless is a shoe store around these parts.

@RegDwighт I'll pass that along.

@KitFox that's 101.

Oop! Forgot to turn the oven on. brb

@RegDwighт Not just expensive/cheap, but catering for outer size as well, and sales/week.

@KitFox And we have a premiere! First time that sentence was used with on rather than off.

I don't do the planograms, but this little nifty trick will save hours for the store employees.

And for my liaison.

more time for... liaising ;)

And might cinch the job for me.

yay!

@MattЭллен Uh...yeah...

It is a good demonstration of my prowess.

But my liaison will be annoyed if I get an office and she doesn't have one, so I think I will see if we could share an office, because there's no way I am going in a gopher hole.

@KitFox here's another one, then. Tomato sauce doesn't go to veggies or tinned food, but to pasta.

@RegDwighт Ah, brilliant. It's like you've thought about this stuff.

It's convenience retail though, so there probably isn't any.

Also, if you're Amazon and not retail, you mix everything such that no two similar goods are next to each other.

shops should just sort alphabetically and load the shelves like that. no fuss, no muss

haha

@MattЭллен Agreed.

:D

Easier to find stuff that way.

@KitFox No convenience, or thought? Or both?

Amazon goes like, one can of tomato sauce, one copy of one LEGO set, one pair of shoes, one book, one crowbar, and it takes a mile till you arrive at the next LEGO set.

well, I suppose if they sorted by colour, that might work better

"Why are the crisps not in the T section?"

@AndrewLeach Pasta.

"You know, T for tuber products. Duh."

I want to own a shop now, so I can see if that's helpful

@KitFox lol

You could call it Matt Ellen's A to Zed Shop.

Here you have four.

thanks!

It is pretty interesting, saw some documentary a while ago and I remember they discussed if it was more optimal to have the traffic in the store CW or CCW

Or a candy shop.

Purdy.

I'll be 50 cent

In da club.

Preheated. brb

...into having sex, not into making love / so come give me hug if you're into getting rubbed.

Sums up my style so eloquently.