English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

20:13

@WendiKidd Certainly the person who hit their head cannot be expected to make an accurate medical self-diagnosis.

Cerberus

That's not entirely true.

tchrist

They can be expected to do so?

I suppose if they are a physician, they might be.

Cerberus

The large majority can still think clearly enough after a concussion.

@WendiKidd You think you might have one?

tchrist

@Reg Either my déjà vu (well, déjà lu) is acting up again, or you might find a dup if you ran this query as an ELU mod. I don’t know; it is not in my own flag list, so it’s hard for me to find. Oh, correction: here it is.

If someone hurts themself in an accident, and you ask them if they’re ok, unless they give an immediate affirmative response, they probably are not.

I hope she or hers have sought professional medical advice by now.

Cerberus

Themself!?

faints

tchrist

20:25

You just need to get a grip on yourselves.

Cerberus

Go wash your mouth, young man. With vinegar.

user72446

nice chatting with you :)

tchrist

Put down your snooty eyebrows. If one can say yourself for one person, one can say themself for one person. Q.E.D. That pronoun is both completely normal and perfectly logical for epicene they, and your supercilious contempt for the language of real people is misguided, misplaced, misapplied, misdirected, and even miscreant.

WendiKidd

@tchrist, @MattЭллен, @Cerberus: Sorry, I was kind of freaking out. All is fine now; I found a website that told me what to check for. It was my mom, she fell and smashed her head against our fence really hard (it's not a wooden fence, it's made of this really thick plasticy material, so more like hitting a brick wall)

But she passed all the tests on the website and took some medicine, and she's resting (not sleeping though)

Apparently as long as she stays coherent, doesn't sleep for a while, and doesn't get any worse in the next 48 hours she should be fine

Thank you all though :) <3

Cerberus

@tchrist It's horrible and ugly. Style.

@WendiKidd Oh, dear!

I'm glad she has passed all the tests.

WendiKidd

20:40

@Cerberus Yeah. I tried to get her to go to the doctor immediately but she hates doctors and got upset. But it really does seem like she's okay now, and my dad came and checked on her too. I think she's gonna be fine. :)

@Cerberus Thanks <3

tchrist

@WendiKidd 48 hours is a long time to go without sleep. :)

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus a person can judge for themself, if they like it.

WendiKidd

@tchrist Ah, forgive me. No sleep until this evening; 48 hours without getting dizzy or vomiting. Lexically clear enough? ;)

tchrist

Yah yah.

Matt Эллен

Glad she's doing OK, @WendiKidd

Cerberus

20:41

Sure, she will probably be fine. If she still doesn't notice anything unusual tomorrow, not even a very mild headache, then I'd probably let it go. Otherwise, your father should probably take her to their GP.

WendiKidd

@MattЭллен Thank you :)

tchrist

@Wendi You understand why it was worrisome.

WendiKidd

@Cerberus She doesn't even have a GP; that's how much she hates doctors. But if she gets any worse (later today or tomorrow) I'm taking her to the hospital whether she likes it or not.

@tchrist Yes; sorry about that! I was a bit freaked out (still am some, but calming down)

Cerberus

@WendiKidd Good idea.

Perhaps the fact that she doesn't have one is also partly what increases the hurdle for her.

tchrist

@Wendi The Europeans (and even the English) do not understand how it is here with doctors and all. They get it all for free, and for us, it is a royal pain to the point of insanity.

So you do not go unless you are desperate.

Cerberus

20:44

Then change society.

tchrist

Huh? That doesn’t address her issue.

Cerberus

That was for you.

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Perhaps. She didn't even argue when I gave her some pain reliever (she hates medicine too) so I can tell she's hurting (she hit her back as well, it's going to end up pretty bruised). But yeah, if she gets worse it's to the hospital straight away.

tchrist

No bump?

Cerberus

At any rate, I see my doctor perhaps once a year, and so does my mother. We still hate, hate going to the doctor.

WendiKidd

20:45

@tchrist Ha. This is true. I tried to get an appointment with my GP once because I thought I had a sinus infection. He said he could see me in 2 weeks. ??? I just went to CareNow. lol

tchrist

But you see your doctors whenever you need to. We don’t. We can’t.

WendiKidd

@tchrist Not yet, no. I'm going to check later to see if one forms, I know swelling can come about afterward.

Cerberus

@WendiKidd Isn't a GP cheaper? I don't know how it works for you guys, but here you could just call up a few nearby GP's offices and ask whether they take on new patients, then go see him or her the same day or the next.

@WendiKidd Oh, wow!

@tchrist Is it really that bad even if you aren't poor?

WendiKidd

@Cerberus It's cheaper, but you absolutely never get in the same day or the next if you're a new patient. (Above example is an extreme case where I was an established patient and still couldn't get an appointment.) The hospital will take her within a few hours at least.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh, if you’re poor you go to the emergency room for everything.

Cerberus

20:47

Oh, that sucks...

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Yes. Reference: the $900 MRI I had a few weeks ago

Not to mention all the other medical bills I've paid over the years.

Cerberus

Jeepers.

tchrist

There are walk-in “urgent care” clinics if you can find them.

WendiKidd

Yep

@tchrist Yep. They charge you emergency room rates but usually get you in faster I think.

tchrist

It costs about $250 to see a doctor, and several times that if it is at the emergency room.

WendiKidd

20:48

(faster than a hospital, that is)

Cerberus

So anyway, her skull/skin hurts from the outside, which is probably not serious.

tchrist

And that is if they do nothing.

Cerberus

Does she also have a headache?

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Yes, that is my hope (that it's not serious). She said she already had a little headache before she fell and it hasn't gotten any worse. Hopefully the pain reliever will help.

Cerberus

@tchrist Wow. It costs € 25 or so here for a short session (and insurance pays for that).

WendiKidd

20:49

I can tell her back is going to end up hurting a lot later on.

Cerberus

OK.

Seeing your parents fall is terrible, I understand.

My mother went skiing last year, and ice-skating too.

tchrist

And if they want you to stick around for the night for observation, it will end up costing you thousands of dollars.

People just do not have that kind of money.

So they do not go.

Cerberus

I never understand how some poor people in your country get cheap insurance while others do not.

WendiKidd

Because the system is broken.

tchrist

Poor people do not get insurance.

They just walk into the emergency room.

Cerberus

20:51

But you have something-care and medi-care and stuff?

tchrist

It is often tantamount to impossible to be seen in an urban emergency room, because all the street people and poor people go there for a sniffle, and there aren’t even enough chairs to seat them all.

And it costs 10x what it should.

WendiKidd

Medicare is for the elderly

Medicare (United States)

In the United States, Medicare is a national social insurance program, administered by the U.S. federal government since 1965, that guarantees access to health insurance for Americans ages 65 and older and younger people with disabilities as well as people with end stage renal disease (Medicare.gov, 2012) and persons with Lou Gehrig’s Disease. As a social insurance program, Medicare spreads the financial risk associated with illness across society to protect everyone, and thus has a somewhat different social role from for-profit private insurers, which manage their risk portfolio by adj...

tchrist

And guess who pays for it? Not them.

WendiKidd

I forget what medicaid is.... googles

Cerberus

And people praise the free market and capitalism.

WendiKidd

20:53

And medicaid is apparently for children:

Medicaid Is Available in Every State
All States provide Medicaid to infants and children under age 6 with family incomes up to 133% of the federal poverty level, or FPL, ($29,725 for a family of four in 2011). Medicaid is available in every state for children under age 19 with family incomes up to $22,350 (100% FPL). Medicaid covers U.S. citizens and eligible immigrants.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's awesome. it lets clever people be stupid and collapse the economy

WendiKidd

What Does Medicaid Pay For?
Medicaid pays for a full set of services for children, including preventive care, immunizations, screening and treatment of health conditions, doctor and hospital visits, and vision and dental care. In most cases, these services are provided at no cost to families.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Right! I forgot.

Matt Эллен

what more could you want than inadvertent total financial destitution at the press of a button?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен So how good or bad is the NHS really?

@MattЭллен Maybe kitten, but that's the only thing I can think of.

Matt Эллен

20:55

depends on your circumstances

Cerberus

Such as?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus :D

Like, I've never had an operation, so I can't comment on waiting lists

Cerberus

We used to have fairly long waiting lists for certain procedures, but that problem has apparently been solved more or less.

Matt Эллен

but I always hear the NHS waiting lists are horrendous

Cerberus

Hmm.

Matt Эллен

20:56

getting an appointment with the GP isn't too hard

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Is that the main problem?

How about the quality?

Matt Эллен

I normally get to see one either the same day or a few days later

tchrist

I never had a problem seeing a GP when I lived in England. Did it a couple of times.

Matt Эллен

yeah, it's mostly the same day

@Cerberus it varies

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yeah same here; if you come in the morning between 8 and 10 or so, you will be seen immediately, that is, after all the other patients.

WendiKidd

20:57

@MattЭллен That's true in the US as well. I've had some very bad doctors (a lot of em) and some very good ones.

Cerberus

I never had a problem seeing a doctor in France or Greece either, that I remember.

tchrist

Similarly, here I go to a group-clinic. I might not be able to see my own doctor instantaneously, but I very rarely cannot see at least someone in the practice. On rare occasions, it might have to wait till tomorrow.

Cerberus

Yeah, seeing a replacement doctor is OK.

My parents have a terrible doctor.

WendiKidd

The annoying thing about specialists is they try to fob you off onto their PAs.

Matt Эллен

a friend with a serious, long term, medical condition has seen a few different consultants and most of the time she's satisfied, but more than once she's felt belittled. several times she's felt like a specimen at a freak show

WendiKidd

20:59

This does not make me happy.

Cerberus

Made two horrible and obvious mistakes, one of which nearly killed my father.

tchrist

Sometimes. The previous one did that, the current one does not.

WendiKidd

@MattЭллен :/ That's terrible

@Cerberus That's even MORE terrible!

@Cerberus Did you sue him?

Cerberus

We don't have that.

You can't sue people as easily here.

WendiKidd

Even for medical malpractice??

Cerberus

21:00

It happens, but it is not easy.

WendiKidd

Wow. I'm sorry

Cerberus

And you don't get paid as much as in your country.

Actually, I think it's good.

tchrist

So much for an incentive to do a good job.

They get paid anyway, and they don’t get sued anyway.

WendiKidd

Well I'd think the point is more to stop the doctor from continuing to practice bad medicine and hurting more people, you know?

Matt Эллен

yeah, well it's a rare condition so the doctors are really interested, but forget she's not a specimen, she's a person

Cerberus

21:01

Oh, you can complain. And he might get suspended or punished.

Matt Эллен

stupid internet connection keeps flaking out

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Oh okay. Well did you do that then?

Cerberus

But it's hard to get money.

tchrist

If they end up costing you more money through a medical error, then they should be paying for your trouble.

Tort law.

Cerberus

I told them they should complain. What he did first was tell my mother her swollen leg was probably nothing, and she should go home, again. When she insisted on having a test for tick bites, he didn't read the results and sent her home again, when in fact the report said she had Lyme's. With my father, he sent him home aged 70 with chest pain and pain in his left arm and neck. And my father is somewhat fat.

(We found out two years later that the test had said "Lyme's".)

WendiKidd

21:04

God. There are some people that should not be practicing medicine. You're always told to go get a doctor to give you medical advice, but if the doctors aren't able to give competent medical advice what's even the point?

Cerberus

(Two days later, my father had a real heart attack, and my mother had to call am ambulance at midnight, and he had an operation.)

tchrist

@Cerberus Those people would be paying your parents for the rest of their lives here.

Cerberus

Yeah.

tchrist

Those are life-threatening fuck-ups.

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Oh my god. That is so terrible, I'm so sorry. Is he okay now?

Cerberus

21:05

Yeah, the operation went very well, and there is no damage. So he was lucky.

WendiKidd

That's good.

Cerberus

I'm sure your mother will be A-OK!

WendiKidd

:) Thank you. <3

Cerberus

Either way, with a concussion, as long as you take enough rest and do NOT go out and do stuff, it can't quickly escalate or anything.

Or that's what I have heard.

WendiKidd

Yeah. She's being a good patient so far, so I hope that continues. :)

Cerberus

21:07

@tchrist I think punishment should be enough. Only when there is real damage can you get money to compensate here. People shouldn't profit from the mistakes of others, even if they are very stupid.

@WendiKidd Haha, parents can be obstinate...

tchrist

Punishment should include covering all subsequent costs incurred through their professional misconduct.

Cerberus

Oops, I forgot a NOT there.

tchrist

It’s their fault, so they should pay.

Cerberus

So people can never make mistakes?

WendiKidd

@tchrist Yes, this. If they caused you to have to spend more money through negligence they should pay you back.

tchrist

21:08

If somebody drives a car into my living room, I damned well expect more than just a ticket for reckless driving: I expect them to pay for it.

WendiKidd

@Cerberus Oh, sure they can! But they're responsible for it. If I borrow your car and crash it, shouldn't I pay you for the damages?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus people should always deal with the consequences of their actions

tchrist

“Punishment” is not enough, no.

Cerberus

I think this is a bit of a simplification.

WendiKidd

Perhaps. :)

Matt Эллен

21:09

not that I do, but y'know

WendiKidd

@MattЭллен Ha!

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

It depends on whether you are truly to blame, and to what extent the damage is solely caused by your blameworthy action, and to what extent you could have foreseen that damage like this could be the result. That's how it works here, at least.

The problem is that people abuse lawsuits. You have to make sure that that doesn't happen either.

Matt Эллен

yes

tchrist

Whoever spends the most on the lawyer wins. It’s always been that way. There is no objective truth or justice.

Cerberus

21:11

In America, people pretend to slip on something in a shop and sue the owner for a million dollars for a back pain.

tchrist

Street people, maybe.

Cerberus

@tchrist And you don't think this is a problem? Our laws work to mitigate this problem to some extent.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I'm surprised court cases go on so long! Just get the accountants in and be done with it

Cerberus

That's why they have so many settlements in America.

tchrist

Poor people have trouble finding a competent lawyer whose nest they can afford to fleece.

Cerberus

21:13

I don't get why you should get more than, say, € 100 for slipping on something if there is nothing worse than some pain.

tchrist

You can get whatever you can talk a jury into awarding you.

Cerberus

Maybe a couple hundred thousand if you truly can't work any more.

Ugh, juries...

tchrist

A couple of hundred thousand for a whole lifetime of work? You come cheap.

Cerberus

Juries can perhaps be good in certain very specific situations...

Matt Эллен

like, if you want to convict someone

Cerberus

21:15

@tchrist The idea that you should be totally compensated for an accident that wasn't your fault is not something I think is a good idea for society in general.

Matt Эллен

if even the defence lawyer doesn't like the defendant

Cerberus

What do you mean?

Matt Эллен

juries convict more than judges alone

Cerberus

Yeah.

tchrist

@Cerberus You should be compensated in full for anything someone else does to you.

Cerberus

21:18

Why?

The other person didn't mean to hurt you.

That is the typical "entitlement" attitude, combined with the idea that the universe can be ultimately just.

If you cheat on your lover, should you be required to pay for her shrink and the loss of her career due to a depression?

I also think the amount you have to pay should perhaps be based on how much you have. If you're rich, you could probably pay more?

tchrist

Um, no.

Intent is immaterial to actual damages.

Whether he meant to drive into my living room or not, he still owes me for all real damages incurred. I cannot believe anyone could argue against that.

You break it, you bought it, buster.

Cerberus

I certainly do. It's very American of you.

tchrist

I don’t care if it’s an accident.

The law is clear.

Cerberus

It's not.

tchrist

Go ahead, go walk into a shop and destroy their property.

I dare you.

I double dare you.

I triple dog dare you.

Cerberus

21:23

Don't you understand how people around the world always talk down American "claim culture"?

tchrist

Oh, that’s alright dearie, just hand us a fiver and you can go on your way.

Cerberus

It harms your reputation...

Sure, some claims can be good; but excesses are dangerous.

tchrist

Sorry that your fuck-up puts us out $5,000, but since you said you were sorry, that little $5 is just fine. Have a nice day now!

That’s pure nonsense.

Cerberus

Fallacy.

Straw man.

tchrist

Nope.

It’s exactly the crucial point.

I am not talking about the nightmares and lost sleep cost.

I am talking about documentable damages that you caused someone else.

Those are your fault, and of course it would be dishonorable and illegal for you to try to get out of paying for them.

Cerberus

21:26

I am talking about preventing excesses. But if you make it too easy...

tchrist

Then park your car on the street where it belongs, not in my living room.

Cerberus

You don't think "sue culture" is a problem?

tchrist

That’s not the point.

In you injure me or mine, I will have my pound of flesh.

Cerberus

What if it is the point?

tchrist

You have to start being responsible.

You cannot just say oopsie.

You have to make good on the harm you cause.

Cerberus

21:29

You think that is a nuanced argument that looks at the matter from all perspectives?

tchrist

You're flailing.

You want to bitch at me for something I didn’t do.

I don’t like that.

So please stop.

I refuse to take responsibility for others’ actions.

Cerberus

Is that the only thing you have to say about suing people for mistakes?

tchrist

Nor allow them to forego taking responsibility for their own.

WendiKidd

@tchrist Hey, that apostrophe isn't in the right place xP

Cerberus

Nothing about utility, balance, practicality, abuse?

tchrist

21:32

You’re just waving your arms in big flimsy circles. State a concrete case.

Cut it out. Be concrete.

Cerberus

Very well, I have to buy milk anyway.

Bye.

tchrist

Right, you can’t. Knew it.

Pure bull.

WendiKidd

Moar kittens

Cerberus

If you can't think of examples of abuse, have you ever read newspapers?

@WendiKidd Aww!

But I have to go. Bye!

tchrist

Nonsense.

Cerberus

21:34

For example, the woman who sued Samsung or some company because her dog died in the microwave.

I think that was a real story? If not, take the other example I mentioned, people faking accidents.

tchrist

Forbid them from collecting from fake damages and you also forbid them from collecting from real damages, making a mockery of the law by shredding all hope of justice.

It is up to the judge and jury to sort out the liars from the honest.

Cerberus

But there is no problem at all?

user19161

@matt Boo!

tchrist

Where? Humans make mistakes. That is a problem, yes, I agree with you. It would be better if all humans were perfect.

But do not strike out your eye to spite your face.

Cerberus

A serious reply?

tchrist

21:39

If you have a bunch of complete idiots on your jury, then you get what you pay for.

The law does not forbid idiots from serving.

In some regards, it encourages this, since anybody who is not an idiot can get out of it if they should care to.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy hullo!

tchrist

@MattЭллен Ever been called up to serve jury duty?

Matt Эллен

not so far

tchrist

I understand it is the better side of the bar to sit on. :)

Matt Эллен

:D

aye

tchrist

21:41

I was called once, but was sent home with everyone else.

user19161

@MattЭллен I am very excited about deleting myself in 3 weeks from SE, lol.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy I hope it helps

@tchrist I guess that puts you to the bottom of the pile

user19161

@MattЭллен Well, not that it helps anything, but there isn't really anything to do on SE, lol, other than answering silly questions and getting rep.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy and chatting :D

tchrist

I’m not sure who the randomized selection works, whether having served one week makes you less likely to be called upon the next one.

I do know people who’ve been called on multiple times.

user19161

21:44

@MattЭллен Ah, I can chat with the people I want via email, now and then. I think that is less superficial.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy considering how much I do of the former, chatting is the bulk of why I come here

tchrist

These are just for regular juries, though, not for Grand Juries, which I don’t fully understand.

user19161

@MattЭллен Geezis.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist for a job well done, maybe?

user19161

@MattЭллен I have gotten a few people to delete with me as well, lol. It will be a mass exodus!

Matt Эллен

21:45

@JasperLoy well, so long as you don't disappear completely

user19161

@MattЭллен I think I will live till 99, lol.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy golly! why are they leaving?

user19161

@MattЭллен They have discovered the futility of it all!

user19161

Now how did I even start to come to SE?

Matt Эллен

I see

Did you arrive by boat?

user19161

21:47

Oh I was trying to post an answer on TeX, then I decided to get registered, then I joined more sites, then I deleted them one by one, now I am left with one...

user19161

So it's a cycle, like how the sun rises and sets, how people grow old and die and are reborn.

user19161

Like how the universe expands during the big bang, and then one day starts to contract, and everything is destroyed, and then another big bang happens.

user19161

That is the big bounce theory.

tchrist

@JasperLoy Please keep religion out of it. Please. Please.

user19161

Haha, what is religion? It is not well-defined.

Matt Эллен

21:49

religion is that thing with the stuff and the feathers

oh, no, I'm thing of pigeon

user19161

The Buddha spoke of the Big Bang way before Stephen Hawking did, lol.

user19161

Even the Koran speaks of the Big Bang, lol.

user19161

So you see, there is something to all this religious stuff.

user19161

What is science? It is also not well-defined.

user19161

Much of theoretical physics is not verifiable experimentally.

tchrist

21:52

Bah.

Suffered, died, and was buried.

And there it stops.

user19161

And the end is a new beginning, QED.

tchrist

There is no rebirth.

You are gone.

user19161

Depends on what you means.

user19161

What is I? That is a very deep question.

user19161

All things are interdependent and aggregrates of other things.

WendiKidd

21:54

@tchrist Ironically, before I knew who you were and had just seen your username, I assumed it was religious.

user19161

@WendiKidd I thought you were Wendy from Peter Pan, lol.

tchrist

Where’s Wanda?

WendiKidd

Ha

user19161

Wanda is in Rwanda.

tchrist

You have a speech impediment.

user19161

21:55

And wand is in Wanda.

user19161

And and is in wand.

user19161

And an is in and.

user19161

And a is in an.

user19161

Therefore, a<an<and<wand<Wanda<Rwanda, QED!

user19161

@WendiKidd There was a user called antichrist who was against tchrist I think, lol.

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