English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight

00:00

Um, it's Martha who is in Hungry.

@Vitaly You're quite on the mark.

Apr 8 at 20:30, by Robusto

Cerberus

Hah right.

RegDwight

Anyhow, guys, I just realized how late at is and that I haven't even played with LEGO yet.

Cerberus

Shame on you.

It is bed time here as well...

RegDwight

I'm not going to bed and not logging off, but I will be more or less afk.

Cerberus

Vitaly still has plenty of time, of course.

I will ehh probably stay logged in for a short while but don't count on any more slowness coming from here.

Later!

RegDwight

00:04

CU!

Vitaly

Later.

Cerberus

Bai.

Vitaly

26

Q: When did the term "scientist" overtake usage of the term "natural philosopher"?

The word scientist comes from the Latin scientia, but when did its usage become more prevalent than the term natural philosopher?

What's up with all those Google Ngram answers?

RegDwight

Mar 8 at 19:47, by nohat

All the answers are making me kvell

Ngram is getting increasingly popular with the community.

Vitaly

no I mean, what's the point of the latest answer?

RegDwight

00:10

Me, I am still kind of old-school. I use COCA + Google Spreadsheets.

@Vitaly Lemme check.

Cerberus

Hah I've been using it since the day I arrived here.

RegDwight

Yeah, like in your first answer.

1

A: Is it a splice comma if an interjection-phrase is involved?

The basic statement that independent sentences are not to be connected by commas is disputed. Fowler, of all stylists, calls it superstition; he mentions several factors that may or may not be enough to warrant comma splices: short sentences, a strong link in thought, and the use of certain conju...

Or the second:

12

A: What's with syntax in newspaper headlines?

That is called ellipsis, omitting words that can be inferred. Journalists use such strong ellipsis because they want compact headlines. The present tense is used here to make a story seem more "actual", more lively: that is called the historic present. Besides this liveliness, the fact that it is...

Don't challenge me! :P

Vitaly

I, on the other hand, have used the OED in my first answer.

Pwned.

RegDwight

@Vitaly You should be answering more.

286 rep doesn't begin to reflect your mad skillz.

Vitaly

There are not many questions that can be answered with a quotation from the OED that haven't been answered yet.

RegDwight

00:15

Well, we are getting like 40 fresh questions every single day.

Cerberus

@Reg: I didn't say I actually posted the Ngrams...

RegDwight

Hahaha.

Fair enough.

Cerberus

Yay.

RegDwight

I often don't post stuff I would like to post, too.

Vitaly

I really can't sometimes understand what is there to be said besides what is already said in HP CGEL, QGLS CGEL, the OED, and a fair number of dictionaries.

RegDwight

00:17

Apr 19 at 18:07, by RegDwight

I am trying to think of a polite comment to leave. So far my options are "TL;DR" and "Dear Lord".

Vitaly

So if I were to answer, my answers would consist of quotations entirely.

Which is not what seems to be welcome here.

Cerberus

I have given poor pageman a +1 for providing a bit more detail on the exact date when scientist overtook natural philosopher, though I don't think that level of detail is actually significant on Ngrams.

@Vit: I sort of agree. But it is more fun to just make up answers off the top of your head.

RegDwight

@Vitaly Well, throwing in a few sentences of yours certainly does help. Then again, some people overdo it and basically re-write entire quotes in their own words and then post a "source" link at the end. That's overkill.

Cerberus

It is, but it can be faster than looking it up in the first place if you don't need to.

RegDwight

Yes, but I'm not talking about writing it from scratch. I am talking about googling for a quote and then rewriting it.

Just be a man and quote it.

Cerberus

00:21

Yeah that is rather useless. Perhaps people think quotes are plagiarism?

RegDwight

Most of those re-wordings are no match for the originals.

@Cerberus No, I think they are actually afraid to quote too much. A few seem to try to come off as original.

Not many, but some.

Cerberus

Huh?

RegDwight

So they would write something in a way that would make it appear as if it came off the top of their head.

Cerberus

A few what come of off original in what sense?

RegDwight

See above.

Robusto

00:23

Oh, I see how it works. I show up and everyone goes to bed. Fine.

I'm holding in my hands a copy of The Discovery of Heaven, @RegDwight. You didn't tell me it was a freaking doorstop. Christ, how am I going to carry this thing on the train?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Sometimes (again, not very often) it is quite obvious that someone has just googled a quote or checked Wikipedia and then tries to pass what he found there as prior knowledge or even original thinking.

@Robusto I did.

Cerberus

@Reg: Oh I misread your first line. That would be a bit silly, especially considering the fact that citations make you seem more reliable and hence will bring in more votes.

RegDwight

Mar 6 at 14:33, by RegDwight

Ah yes, I remember that discussion. I'll put it on my list, though I have no idea when I will have enough time to read 600+ pages in one run. (The Flanders Panel and The Fencing Master are much shorter BTW, some 160-200 pages each IIRC. The Discovery of Heaven which I recommended earlier is around 850 pages.)

Cerberus

@Rob: Welcome!

RegDwight

@Robusto But if it has more than 850 pages, just tear them off.

Robusto

00:26

@RegDwight — So I'm supposed to remember every little thing you say in chat, two months later?

RegDwight

No. But you're not supposed to accuse me of something if you can't remember if it's actually true. :P

Robusto

Also, Mulisch uses em dashes instead of quotes. Hmm. I tolerate that in Joyce, but it irritated me in Gaddis. I don't know how I'll feel about it with this dude.

RegDwight

Damn, now I have to read that book, too.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Shoot first, ask questions later. That's my way, as you well know.

@RegDwight — Yes. You are honor-bound now to read The Eight by Katherine Neville.

RegDwight

It is on my list.

Robusto

00:29

Anyway, I don't have time to read every little thing you post, much less remember it all.

RegDwight

Apr 17 at 0:53, by RegDwight

Amazon list, that is. Not the imaginary list with the trash can icon on it.

Robusto

And you didn't tell me there was going to be a quiz.

RegDwight

Well, I can't give away everything!

Cerberus

@Rob: I assume you are reading it in Dutch?

RegDwight

I try real hard, but I just can't.

Cerberus

00:31

If not, don't blame the m-dashes on poor Mulisch, conceited though he was...

Robusto

@Cerberus — Why would I read the book in Dutch when I have a copy in a language people actually read?

Vitaly

This quotation dash thingy reminds me that Trainspotting was the first fiction book I attempted to read in English. I didn't at that time realise that the horizontal bar (aka the quotation dash, as opposed to the em dash) was not in wide usage in English.

So I was surprised to see those weird inverted commas in the next fiction book in English I read.

Robusto

@Vitaly — You're not in Kansas anymore, Vitaly.

Cerberus

@Rob: To further your education by enveloping yourself in languages of culture?

@Vit: Oh I had no idea Russian didn't use inverted commas...

Robusto

@Cerberus — Wow, you have a long way to go before Dutch becomes a culture. First you have to put it in a petri dish, etc. ... you know the drill.

Vitaly

00:34

@Cerberus Not in dialogues.

RegDwight

Non-English usage of quotation marks

Quotation marks, also called quotes, speech marks or inverted commas, are punctuation marks used in pairs to set off speech, a quotation, or a phrase. The pair consists of an opening quotation mark and a closing quotation mark, which may or may not be the same character. They have a variety of forms in different languages and in different media, as can be seen in the table below. English usage is included for the purposes of comparison; for more detailed information on quotation marks in English, see the article Quotation marks. Overview For particular quote glyph information, see Quo...

Cerberus

@Rob: I will concede that it is viral, but no more.

@Vit: Oh, only when quoting phrases contained in narrative sentences?

Vitaly

It goes like this

— Цитата раз
— Цитата два
— Цитата три

As opposed to this:

“Thingy 1,” said A
“Thingy 2”
“Thingy 3,” replied A

Cerberus

Right.

Robusto

Chitata is thingy? How cute.

RegDwight

00:36

Tsitata.

Robusto

Ach.

RegDwight

Tcitation.

Cerberus

I remember I was a bit surprised the first time I encountered the French quotation marks. We use them too in Dutch, but only in very old prints.

Robusto

Write a "cheh" for me. I forget.

RegDwight

ч

Cerberus

00:37

Then what's the one with three legs?

Robusto

Ah. See, I wasn't that far off. Same basic shape.

Cerberus

Sh?

RegDwight

ЧчЦцШшЩщ

Cerberus

Yeah those last two.

RegDwight

Ch, Ts, Sh, Shch

Cerberus

00:38

Ah, right.

RegDwight

Approximately.

Cerberus

Funny.

Robusto

Careful you don't black out.

Cerberus

I just remembered that they all sounded something like sh/ch and left it at that, when I went to Petersburg.

RegDwight

We had that discussion before, about the voiceless postalveolar fricative vs the laminal retroflex fricative. If you remember. Which you don't.

Robusto

00:40

Petrograd?

Cerberus

I faintly remember, yes. But only now that you mention it.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Are you trying to drive me away?

RegDwight

I knew you would say that.

I should've apologized in advance.

Cerberus

I remember "laminal" was interesting, but I couldn't for the life of me say what it meant now.

RegDwight

Well, just read the transcript. Day one seems like a good start.

Cerberus

00:41

Oh wait it's coming back... it was opposed to apical.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Well, I knew you would say you knew I would say that. Next time state what I am going to say before I say it so we know you're not lying.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Stop it already, we're losing Robusto.

Cerberus

Okay that was my lucid moment for the day. You may put me back in my wheelchair now.

RegDwight

@Robusto I knew you would say that.

Cerberus

I knew you (plural) would say that.

Robusto

00:42

@Cerberus — Back in your wheelchair?

RegDwight

@Robusto If I say it beforehand, you will say something different on purpose.

Robusto

10 hours ago, by Robusto

Cerberus

Aww. But I bet that guy has great memory!

Robusto

@RegDwight — "The Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint." — Walter Sobjchak, The Big Lebowski

RegDwight

See, I didn't know you would say that.

Robusto

00:44

And you also don't know what I'm going to say next. I'll give you ten seconds.

RegDwight

Should I have said so in advance?

I'm not holding my breath.

Robusto

I'm going to write a Stephen Hawking cookbook. I'll call it A Brief History of Thyme.

See? Too late.

RegDwight

You know what I will say next.

Robusto

If you had actually known that one, I would have keeled right the frick over.

And why do you keep saying the same thing over and over?

RegDwight

The thing is, I will now remember it, while you will forget ever mentioning it here.

So prepare to keel right the frick over in the future.

Robusto

00:46

Nah. I will remember the cookbook.

Vitaly

> Engineering researchers the University of Southern California have made a significant breakthrough in the use of nanotechnologies for the construction of a synthetic brain. They have built a carbon nanotube synapse circuit whose behavior in tests reproduces the function of a neuron, the building block of the brain.

RegDwight

@Robusto That's not redundancy. That's strength.

Robusto

@Vitaly — See, Reg? There's hope for you yet!

RegDwight

@Vitaly I read that news two years ago. And five years ago. And ten years ago.

Robusto

As soon as you get one of them there nanotube brains, you can be smart too.

RegDwight

00:47

I'm looking forward to that bright sunny day.

Robusto

I'm still waiting for the nanotube skyhook that will be able to launch payloads into space for a few dollars a kilogram.

RegDwight

What's a kilogram?

Robusto

It's 2.2 pounds.

RegDwight

Ah. Then why don't you just call it that.

Robusto

They don't have real weight measurements in Holland, you know.

Everything is rule of thumb.

RegDwight

00:49

They measure in cheeses.

Robusto

The way they measure butter is, a Dutch housewife smears butter on a plank, then she slides down the plank and what sticks to her ass is a pound and a quarter.

RegDwight

More to the point, what are you looking to get rid of?

What would you launch into space and to what end?

Robusto

Before you get all offended, @Cerberus, remember I'm just trying to say things @RegDwight can't possibly claim to have known I would say first.

@RegDwight — Well, we could start with Communism.

RegDwight

Oh, so far I've known every word.

Robusto

@Cerberus: Ooh, remember our conversation about the skinny, boyish-looking women? Well, I found the perfect poster about that:

RegDwight

00:52

Feb 11 at 14:57, by RegDwight

You're getting predictable.

Robusto

RegDwight

See the date?

Robusto

I don't give a fig for your dates.

RegDwight

You've been predictable ever since.

Robusto

Lies!

I think the doggie fell asleep.

RegDwight

00:54

@Robusto That is probably the single most predictable thing about you.

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=lies&user=1460&room=95

Robusto

Wow, I just got an email from Newegg telling me the thing I received last Tuesday has just shipped. I think I've fallen into a wormhole and I can't get out.

RegDwight

0

A: What would be a suitable name for the game panel in tetris?

Tetris is actually Russian and invented by Alexey Pajitnov. Here are some Russian nouns for the word "well": колодец скважина добро источник родник водоем шахта лифта места адвокатов отстойник минеральный источник курорт с минеральными водами лестничная клетка световая шахта зумпф here are th...

What the...

And зумпф is obviously so not Russian.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sumpf

Robusto

I knew you were going to say that.

RegDwight

I know.

Cerberus

Hey what wait. How did things degenerate into cheese bashing all of a sudden?

teylyn

00:57

Hi all. First time here. Please be gentle.

RegDwight

I'm trying to bring them back on track. Let's bash pseudo-Russian.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Я знал, что вы собираетесь сказать, что.

RegDwight

@teylyn Hi there. We're all gentlemen here.

Cerberus

@Rob: And what is that poster? Was it just a trick to lure me hither?

Robusto

@teylyn — Hey, didn't you see the sign? "NO GIRLS ALLOWED!!!"

Vitaly

00:58

Места адвокатов.

teylyn

Thanks. I'm having trouble believing my reputation total. I seem to have lost 100

RegDwight

@Robusto Я знал, что ты это скажешь.

Robusto

@Cerberus — No, it was completely apropos of what we were talking about earlier.

Cerberus

@Teyl: Welcome! gently touches Teyl's hair...

teylyn

I feel touched ..

Cerberus

00:58

@Rob: Then where is the poster!

Robusto

6 mins ago, by Robusto

RegDwight

@teylyn One of your answers got flag-deleted.

Robusto

Geez, you're so lazy you can't scroll up a few panels.

RegDwight

You get a -100 penalty for that.

english.stackexchange.com/questions/21881/…

Cerberus

@Rob: Ah, very apropos.

teylyn

00:59

@RedD, how can I find out which one? My stats still list all my points and all questions are still there.

RegDwight

Try clicking on the above link. I am not sure who can still see it and who can't.

Cerberus

@Rob: I had no idea chat would refuse to display a picture that would work if I opened it in a new tab.

RegDwight

@Cerberus "You don't have permission to access /funny/g2/main.php on this server."

Robusto

I can see it. Wow, that was harsh. Nine downvotes and a deletion? WTF?

teylyn

Sorry, I'm lost. What above link am I supposed to click on?

RegDwight

01:01

1 min ago, by RegDwight

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21881/why-is-it-choruses-and-not-chori/21887#21887

Cerberus

@Reg: Huh where do you see that? I see just an "image not found" in Rob's line.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I see that by clicking on the image, as you suggested.

teylyn

Put that's just -9 points, not -99. Still confused

Cerberus

@Rob: Yeah that was very harsh. I never downvoted that.

Robusto

@Cerberus Which link can't you see? My Curves poster?

Cerberus

01:03

@Reg: Weird? Maybe try a real browser, instead of Chrome or Safari? I just get the picture.

RegDwight

@teylyn Let me explain once again. People found the answer offensive. So they flagged it. When enough people do that, the answer gets deleted automatically. And you get a -100 points penalty.

Vitaly

I can't see it either.

Cerberus

@Rob: Yes, instead of the curves, I see "image not found" in this chat; when I click on it, it does bring me to the right page with the image.

Robusto

Who else can't see the picture?

teylyn

OK. Understood. Why do the - points not show up in the stats, I wonder?

Itemised, I mean

Vitaly

01:04

When I click on it, it says Forbidden.

RegDwight

@teylyn It also appears that you had enough time to just delete the answer yourself. I could understand your frustration had it all happened within a few minutes.

Robusto

Maybe the link is banned in Rodina?

RegDwight

Note that you even get a badge for deleting heavily-downvoted answers.

teylyn

I never saw anything that would have pointed that the answer was downvoted or anything. I'm rather new here. How would I monitor this?

RegDwight

First of all, you can always click on you reputation at the top of any page.

It will get you here:

english.stackexchange.com/users/6385/teylyn?tab=reputation

teylyn

01:06

Yes, that's where I look. but there i only see upvotes. No negative votes

Robusto

Second of all, remember that @RegDwight is the newest moderator here, so you can really help with his hazing.

RegDwight

Secondly, there's a more detailed rep report at /reputation. Only you can see that one.

@Robusto Please don't confuse new users like that. :P

But the format is rather cryptic.

Robusto

@RegDwight — What, confusing? I thought it was pretty clear. Oh, you mean because you're a NNS ...

teylyn

I can deal with the banter. No need to hold Rubusto back

RegDwight

89

A: How do I audit my reputation?

Make sure you are logged in, and visit: http://sitename.com/reputation For example: http://stackoverflow.com/reputation http://cooking.stackexchange.com/reputation http://serverfault.com/reputation http://gaming.stackexchange.com/reputation http://superuser.com/reputation http://meta.stacko...

This is where the format is explained.

Lastly, I am actually not quite sure if a penalty would be listed on your rep report.

You'll have to check for yourself.

teylyn

01:09

Thanks RegD. Why does the neg rep not show in the regular view? For example the one with the chart or the rep by question?

RegDwight

The "regular" view is quite new, actually.

The chart is no longer there, in case you haven't noticed.

teylyn

Yep, the /reputation lists the negative points. This should be reflected in the normal interface, too.

Cerberus

Okay now I am really going to bed. What is he going to bed, you ask? His three-headed teddydoggie.

RegDwight

You can post a request on the meta site, but I it's probably on purpose.

teylyn

I can calculate a total of all the point my regular interface shows, and it's not what my total shows. That is what I find confusing.

I see the chart right in front of me

RegDwight

01:11

Yes, there are still a few issues with that view.

Cerberus

Evening, gentlemen!

RegDwight

@teylyn Linky please?

teylyn

sleep well Cerberus

Cerberus

Thanks!

teylyn

english.stackexchange.com/users/6385/…

RegDwight

01:11

@Cerberus Goede nacht.

Cerberus

poof

teylyn

Gute Nacht, und Frohe Ostern!!

RegDwight

@teylyn Ah. That chart. I though you were talking about the old rep graph that no longer exists. Sorry for the confusion.

Robusto

Cya doggie.

teylyn

So, how do I learn if a post of mine has attracted neg rep, so that I can decide whether or not to delete it?

RegDwight

01:13

Well, again, the thing is that that area of your user profile is public. Everyone can see it. Not displaying negative stuff is on purpose, so people can't e.g. extrapolate which questions you have downvoted.

@teylyn That one you should be able to see in the overview as it happens.

teylyn

How would that show then? In the rep by queston I only see the + points

RegDwight

We could try an experiment if you wish. I could downvote a post of yours for a few seconds and then retract my vote. You check if you see the negative rep.

teylyn

OK, let me send you a link.

this one, for e.g.

2

A: I or me please explain

Hello, You may want to check out When do I use "I" instead of "me?" The use of "I" versus "me" does not really relate to conversation or interview situations, but rather to what you are trying to say. In this photo you can see me standing next to my mother In that p...

RegDwight

Downvoting in 3... 2... 1...

Done.

Robusto

I'm outta here. CYA.

RegDwight

01:16

Night Robusto.

teylyn

So, now what do I do? Where do I check

Night, robusto

RegDwight

english.stackexchange.com/users/6385/teylyn?tab=reputation

teylyn

OK, I see a red -2 next to the reputation link in my profile.

I click on it ...

and, lo and behold, I see it next to the question AND I see it in the chart.

That did not happen for the -100, though

RegDwight

Okay, I have retracted the downvote. Note that you can still see a trace in your profile. The link to the answer is gone, as it's no longer downvoted, but the sum for the day is still -2, so you have a hint that someone tried to downvote you but then retracted your vote.

As I said, they are still tweaking things.

teylyn

Yup, that's what I see.

RegDwight

01:20

That part of the user profile used to look completely different.

teylyn

So, was there a glitch in the system, or do deleted answers not show in that way?

Because I was online every day and checked the profile every day and never once saw a red number or a minus vote in the last 7 days

RegDwight

Hm. That certainly sounds strange.

teylyn

Ah, well. It's just points, not worth worrying too much. I'll get some more rep soon.

RegDwight

Well, I very much applaud that attitude, but do try to pay more attention to those rep lists henceforth.

teylyn

Will do.

RegDwight

01:24

I mean, not only in your own interest, but because there might be, in fact, bugs and glitches.

teylyn

Happy Easter, by the way. We've already found all the eggs in NZ.

RegDwight

BTW, note that there's also a different type of graph elsewhere, if you click on the "network profile" link in your user profile.

stackexchange.com/users/…

But that one is not real-time IIRC, it's recalculated once a day.

@teylyn Thanks a bunch. I'm happy to see more users from NZ here.

We're kinda lacking in that department. (^_^)

teylyn

Thanks for that. I'll take my time finding all the nooks and crannies of the system. No rush. I'll get there in the end.

Well, the kiwis certainly need help with English!! I'm German, but I do all the proofing in my department. Sometimes I really shudder.

RegDwight

Frohe Ostern!

teylyn

Danke.

Over an out. Kids to see to.

RegDwight

01:27

Nice talking to ya. CU!

teylyn

cu

RegDwight

02:14

Now this is just silly:

0

Q: is there a single word that means "under the table"

is there a single word that means "under the table"

word-choice idioms expressions common-expression expression-choice

RegDwight

02:28

Also, is this spammy:

0

A: Is there such a thing as "Injective Relief" (as a legal term)?

IANAL/TINLA so you might want to consult with @grellas (twitter) - my guess is that they might want to "inject" whatever they might consider "relief" later if they need to (there's always new legal nomenclature popping up so I think it's better to check with a laywer :)

F'x

09:21

@RegDwight agreed, but why is it still there?

Robusto

11:39

And I thought injective relief referred to what intravenous drug abusers feel after they shoot up.

@RegDwight — What's silly about it?

RegDwight

@Robusto Because under-the-table is one word.

Besides, the original wording had nothing about the metaphorical sense.

Robusto

No, it's one term comprising three words joined by hyphens. In German it might get to be one word, but not here in America where we can count, thank God.

RegDwight

11:56

Oh well, whatever. The thing is, the question boils down to asking what "under-the-table" means, because if you do know what it means, then you can think of a dozen single-word synonyms...

The whole point of such metaphors is not to express something in a single word.

Robusto

I see. Jimi Oke added a lot of clarification to the question. Your comment came before that. I stand corrected.

RegDwight

Yeah, at least the OP was so kind as to provide further info that Jimi could then incorporate.

Robusto

Well, "underhanded" is a metaphor and a single word.

RegDwight

No, it's a preposition and a participle, joined by an absense of a hyphen.

Robusto

Well, pre- and position are a prefix and a noun joined by the same non-hyphen.

RegDwight

11:59

Exactly! Glad we agree.

Robusto

BTW, I think you all screwed the pooch on this one:

4

Q: Which one is grammatically correct? Why?

I've a quick question about grammar within a sentence. I'd also like to know why it is like that if someone could provide an answer. Which one is correct? Along with fishing, I enjoy frequently writing. While the ... Along with fishing, I frequently enjoy writing. While the ... Along with fis...

grammaticality word-order

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…