English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mistu4u

13:00

Can it be ....what is the thing?

I am fairly sure there is no problem from the second structure, but it is less used.

Cerberus

@Mistu4u In normal statement, we have normal word order. In direct questions, we have subject-verb inversion. In indirect questions, we have normal word order again.

So Have you any idea what is the thing? is considered wrong by most people.

To put it simply, it is wrong.

Mistu4u

@Cerberus, is this comment wrong?

Cerberus

He is being too liberal.

TemporaryNickName

@Cerberus thx, checking out what "subject-verb inversion" is =D

Mistu4u

Yeah, I have to check it too.

Cerberus

13:04

All style guides condemn that word order, but, yes, you see see used, just as yes, I think your right.

@TemporaryNickName The subject and the finite (main) verb are swapped.

He is mad.

Is he mad?

I don't know whether he is mad.

TemporaryNickName

A lamp stands beside the bed → Beside the bed stands a lamp.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus No use asking you then!

Cerberus

@TemporaryNickName That is another kind of inversion.

TemporaryNickName

In this example of subject verb inversion, is the lamp subject? Also in second sentence is the bed subject?

Cerberus

That is subject-complement inversion.

Jez

13:07

Heh politicians refuse to invert word order all the time

"We need to ask what are the challenges"

Cerberus

Or subject-predicate.

TemporaryNickName

oh alright,

Mistu4u

@Cerberus Not related to conversion to question, I guess!

Cerberus

@Mistu4u Nope!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus 0.4 lawler

Mistu4u

13:08

Okay, I am seeing the previous chats.

Cerberus

@Jez Well, the thing is, if you add a comma, it becomes a direct question.

She asked, "is he mad?".

Jez

@Cerberus yeah but their tone of voice suggests that it's not a direct question

TemporaryNickName

oh

a. The dog came down the stairs.
b. Down the stairs came the dog. - Subject-verb inversion

Cerberus

And you can leave out the quotation marks, even: she asked, is he mad?

TemporaryNickName

that is the subject verb inversion

Cerberus

13:08

But you really need the comma there, and the direct questions needs to be appropriate.

Matt Эллен

The dog is coming down the stairs.
Is the dog coming down the stairs?

TemporaryNickName

but the sentence b sounds pretty weird lol

Cerberus

@TemporaryNickName That is wrong, I would say. Subject-verb inversion would be *came the dog down the stairs?

@TemporaryNickName I disagree.

TemporaryNickName

lolol

Cerberus

It is subject-complement inversion. The verb stays put, it is still in the middle.

TemporaryNickName

13:10

a. The dog came down the stairs.

sounds the most natural to me

Cerberus

That is normal word order, yes.

A simple statement.

Mistu4u

@Cerberus Came the dog down the stairs? What kind of question is this?

Jez

@Cerberus that sounds like olde english

or poetic

Cerberus

@Mistu4u It is either wrong or archaic.

Hence the asterisk: if you put an *asterisk before a word or sentence, you signal that it is never used like that.

Mistu4u

hmm

Matt Эллен

13:11

we usually use do-support rather than invert the subject and verb these days

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Except with auxiliary, copular, and modal verbs.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yes.

Cerberus

> Have you seen her? (auxiliary verb have)

> Can you see her? (modal verb can)

Matt Эллен

Did the dog come down the stairs?
The dog came down the stairs.

Cerberus

> Are you mad? (copula are)

TemporaryNickName

13:13

@Cerberus BTW, if you think the subject-verb inversion example is incorrect. Then I think you must fix the error on wikipedia page for people =D

Subject–verb inversion in English

Subject–verb inversion in English is a type of inversion where the subject and verb (or chain of verbs, verb catena) switch their canonical order of appearance, so that the subject follows the verb(s), e.g. A lamp stands beside the bed → Beside the bed stands a lamp. A distinction is made here between subject–verb inversion and subject–auxiliary inversion. In the most frequent cases of inversion in English, such as in question formation, the verb with which the subject inverts is required to be an auxiliary verb (one of a restricted set of verbs including is, can, does, etc.) These case...

Mistu4u

@Cerberus So Can can also be a copula like in You can be like him where can adds the subject and predicate.

Matt Эллен

"came you by" vs "did you come by"

Cerberus

@TemporaryNickName Ugh, that whole article is a mess. It was probably written by a certain modernist linguist of a particular branch of linguistics that changes all the terms. The terminology in that article conflicts with "normal" grammar terminology. I'm not touching that!

TemporaryNickName

m'k

Cerberus

@Mistu4u In that sentence, can is a modal verb, and be is a copula. But only the finite verb is inverted when there is inversion, and be is an infinitive, so in this case you and can would be swapped in subject-verb inversion.

Mistu4u

13:18

@Cerberus, That was a lot of good teaching today.Thank you. :)

Jez

" c. *Under the tree sat he. - Subject-verb inversion impossible with weak definite subject pronoun"

that seems OK to me actually

well maybe poetically

under the tree sat she and he and me and thee

Cerberus

@Mistu4u It was a pleasure!

TemporaryNickName

b. "I am hungry", said Bill. - Subject-verb inversion

I think I have encountered this typish subject-verb inversion many times from books =D

Cerberus

@Jez No, that is subject-complement inversion. Or subject-predicate inversion. Subject-verb inversion would be sat he under the tree.

@TemporaryNickName Yes, that is very common (although it is not subject-verb inversion).

Jez

how legit is it to invert a question like "The plumber, is he?"

Monica

13:21

Would thispost get closed? 1.I haven't seen her since last year.
2.She hasn't been unemployed since she left school.
3.She has been ill since Thursday.
4.Look someone has left their bag in the room.
5.Have you ever been to Rome?(Not did you ever go to Rome?)
6.Nobody answered the phone when it rang.
7.I never knew my grandmother as she died before I was born.
8.It's the first time I ate caviar.
9.The first time we spoke was just the other day.
10.It stinks here somebody has been smoking.

Jez

"Tired, are you?"

Monica

It is taken from a test

Matt Эллен

@Jez how legitimate is yoda?

Jez

that inversion only works with the verb "be"

Monica

which some native speakers think is confusing

Jez

13:22

cant really say "football, played you today?"

Matt Эллен

@Monica yes. you are asking more than one question at once.

Monica

Weird rules

Mistu4u

For all you can have a look here for a glance on inversion types.

grammaring.com/what-is-inversion

Matt Эллен

@Monica what is your question?

Monica

Well, I was completing a test.

Cerberus

13:24

@Jez Umm not very?

Monica

and it seems like more than one answer is possible in some of the quesions

Jez

@Cerberus in spoken English, it's pretty common. you might say it that way on purpose.

Cerberus

@Jez That is short for "[You're] tired, are[n't] you?"

Jez

not really.

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah OK, but it's not exactly...formal.

Matt Эллен

13:25

@Monica you could ask about each one individually, then, on English Language Learners

Monica

Could you have a look at it please?

OK

and it won't get closed there?

There was such a question there

Cerberus

Have you read the FAQ?

Monica

It's the first time I .... caviar.

Cerberus

english.stackexchange.com/faq

Matt Эллен

@Monica it depends how you ask.

Monica

13:27

I used past simple, but present perfect is also possible

But there shouldn't be two possible choices in one test

TemporaryNickName

@Monica Try not to ask questions that are controversial as it must have been questioned before.

Mistu4u

@Cerberus, No sooner had I reached home, my cell began to ring is an example of subject-auixilliary inversion and through the beach, there runs some boy is an example of subect-verb inversion.Correct?

Monica

But a friend of mine asked me to find tests for her on present perfect

Jez

@Mistu4u a boy probably wouldn't run through a beach

Monica

most tests online are like that.

TemporaryNickName

13:30

Best way to determine if the question you are about to ask is not already has been asked is by search it first but use grammatical terms to increase your chance of finding.

Mistu4u

@Jez Okay, substitute boy with dog. Is it okay? :P

Jez

no, you don't run through a beach

usually across

Mistu4u

Oh....okay.

Matt Эллен

beaches aren't enclosed, so you don't run through them.

run through a street or a tunnel or a building

things that are enclosed in someway

Mistu4u

Probably heard run across a road too.

Matt Эллен

13:32

yep, from one side to the other

Monica

I don't understand this example

1 - I ........... finished the exam in time yesterday
only just finished
have only just finished

Read more at http://www.usingenglish.com/quizzes/228.html#iLDrdV7oMfUpe6Py.99

Matt Эллен

only just

Cerberus

@Mistu4u No sooner is a bit complicated, but it contains what I call subject-verb inversion, which I think is the same as what some call subject-auxiliary inversion. The last example I would call subject-complement inversion.

Mistu4u

@MattЭллен why not 2?

Matt Эллен

"have only just" would be something that only just stopped happening, not something that stopped happening yesterday

Monica

13:33

it is used with yestaerday

Matt Эллен

e.g. I have only just finished my lunch

Mistu4u

@Cerberus okay.Need to study more.

@MattЭллен But I completed my test yesterday!!

Cerberus

@Mistu4u Apparently, there is a conflict of terminology here. The Wikipedia article was taken over by some linguists from a particular branch that clashes with conventional terminology.

Monica

and it confused me

Matt Эллен

@Mistu4u right. that's a different structure altogether

Cerberus

13:36

With a specific time in the past, use the simple past. When there is no specific time in the past, use the present perfect.

Matt Эллен

41

Q: How do the tenses in English correspond temporally to one another?

Non-native speakers often get confused about what the tenses in English mean. With input from some of the folk here I've put together a diagram that I hope will provide some clarity on the matter. I offer it as the first answer to this question. Consider it a living document. Input is welcome, ...

Cerberus

(To simplify the rule.)

Monica

Sometimes specific time is not mentioned and past simple is used

TemporaryNickName

Guys

Mistu4u

@Cerberus Yes, it does not specifically explicate the English usage.

Cerberus

13:39

Even though the terms are normally used for English as I described them.

@Monica Yes, no rule is absolute. But it does apply in your example.

TemporaryNickName

When someone say "Run through something", is that mean he is trying to learn something by going through chapters on book?

Cerberus

Yes, that is possible?

TemporaryNickName

ah ok

Cerberus

What is the context?

TemporaryNickName

I going to run through Web Logic books today (just made it up)

Mistu4u

13:43

am is missing

TemporaryNickName

crap

that's right

but it cannot be modified anymore

Monica

In British English after the expressions recently, lately, the first time... the last time.... it was the first time, it was the last time... you use past simple or present perfect, Matt?

Matt Эллен

e.g. I would say "It was the first time I ran the race"

so simple past

Monica

and with the rest?

Matt Эллен

the same

the first time I ate crab I was sick

so it was the first and the last time I ate crab

Monica

13:49

but after 'since' BRE speakers prefer to use present perfect, right?

Matt Эллен

maybe? I don't know. do you have an example?

TemporaryNickName

Is Aussie speaking part of BRE speaking?

Monica

We have known each other since we were kids.

Or 'have been kids?'

Matt Эллен

@TemporaryNickName they are closer to BrE than AmE, I think. but their dialect is distinct.

@Monica were kids.

Monica

So past simple after all the expressions I mentioned. Thanks a lot!

Matt Эллен

13:53

no trouble!

Mistu4u

What I understand about using simple past and present perfect is that you should understand if the result of the past action still persists or not. And of course the action should have happened in the near past. Not a long time ago. Like That was the first time, I ate a beef. But if I am vomiting presently for eating beef I would say I am vomiting because I have eaten beef

Monica

You are right

Mistu4u

The first sentence has a tone I ate beef a long time ago.

Jez

@Mistu4u by the way, beef is a mass noun / uncountable

Matt Эллен

don't have a cow, man!

Mistu4u

13:55

hmm, that is why I have not used a/an before beef in the second sentence, but I overlooked the mistake in the first tense. Never mind.

:)

Monica

Online tests are confusing sometimes

TemporaryNickName

beef XD

Monica

I use usingenglish.com tests

Mistu4u

BDW as being a Hindu it is against our religion to eat beef.

Monica

they have language polls

that you might find interesting

Mistu4u

13:56

@Monica I have bookmarked the site :)

Monica

Mistu

Hope you will like it

They also have list of idioms, and proverbs.

TemporaryNickName

I kinda started to reckon if vocab that I'm about to use is plural or singular.

Monica

This sentence confused me a lot

The morning was cold and rainy, but since 4o'clock the weather changed and now the sun is shining brightly.

I used past simple as the situation refers to the past

but have been told that present perfect is possible too

Ohhhhh

I have to go now. Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions

See you all

Cerberus

14:11

@Monica *has changed

Bye!

Monica

Thanks

Bye

Mitch

14:32

I know, crazy, but did you check out a thesaurus? — Mitch 2 mins ago

@Mistu4u what is 'BDW'?

Also, what the hell is up with words? they're so ... they mean so much but only after you've used them a lot. They're so... wordy.

Kit

Oooh, new feature.

Can you see the deleted comments button, or is that mod only?

Mitch

Like when you learn profanity in a nother language.

@Kit ?? Link?

Matt Эллен

@Kit where would I look?

Kit

On the question you just linked to.

Oh that's sweet.

Matt Эллен

not for me

Kit

14:43

0

Q: Are there by chance any synonyms for «synonym»?

I was discussing with some friends about synonyms when we found, that ironically nobody of us knew any synonyms to the word «synonym» itself. Are there any?

synonyms

@sim check it out ^

New feature.

Mitch

or when you learn your first profanity. you use it all over the place hoping you won't get slapped. and you don't for a bit. then someone slaps you (metaphorically of course). Then that word -feels- bad.

@Kit !! yeah I deleted it. It's totally deletable.

but I beat you to it.

Kit

No, that's not what I mean.

Mitch

oh.

simchona

It isn't showing up on my phone but I know what you're referring to @kit

Mitch

Then you better explain yourself, young lady.

Kit

14:46

Check it. Sweeet.

Mitch

That is both really subtle...

and not available to me.

Matt Эллен

so subtle we can't see it

Mitch

oh and you get a 'mod' button.

Kit

Probably because I clicked on it already.

Mitch

yeah I can't see it any more. My eesight is going.

as we speak.

Kit

14:47

@Mitch Yep. You could have one too.

Mitch

along with my 'y's.

Matt Эллен

where is it going?

Mitch

@Kit 'could' could mean different things.

Kit

@Jez Could mean I'm sexist and irrational.

Jez

why is your avatar transparent @Kit?

Mitch

14:50

@Kit wtf man. stop the going back in time stuff. I"m getting temporal vertigo.

Kit

It's difficult to concentrate with all this whining going on.

Mitch

@Jez why? because she's handy with transparency in gimp? Or are you looking for a metaphysical reason like why she chose that? I think it is a good representation of her inner turmoil, so open that she's inscrutable.

Kit

I'm flattered. You got it exactly right.

Mitch

If by 'got it right' you mean 'make no sense at all', then yes.

I'll be impressed if you can make your avatar mirror-colored. I wanna see your gimp-fu do -that-.

Kit

I'm surprised it has caused such a ruckus.

It's hardly gimp fu to create a blank image.

Mitch

14:56

If you don't know, you don't know.

can one's avatar be an avi file? so it cycles through some images? or blinks giving people fits?

Kit

I don't think so.

I've never tried it though.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…