English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Martha

20:05

@psmears I noticed that too. I've had to resort to clicking on my reputation number (to get recent voting history), then from there clicking on "Responses" (to hopefully get recent comments, though I've noticed that it's often buggy/incomplete).

What ends up happening is that I often simply forget to check out the Responses tab, so the only way I find out about comments is if the Superconducting Supercollider Thingummy™ on the top left notifies me.

psmears

@Martha Yes, that's been my experience too...

It has a number of disadvantages (quite apart from the bugginess), among them that it involves opening more than one page, and that it requires remembering what I've already seen (which is harder than it should be!)

JSBangs

@psmears (not that you asked me, but) the envelope was always broken/old for me anyway, so i don't mourn its passing.

i always use the StackExchange dropdown for finding new goodness anyway

psmears

@Martha Do you happen to know if there's any discussion going on at Meta? I guess I should have paid more attention to the previous ones, but I got somewhat discouraged after the SE response to the original "Eeeeek" question, and its (on-topic) successors...

@JSBangs The envelope itself was pretty broken, but the page it linked to I found useful, as it neatly summarised everything that had happened since I last looked, all on one page

@JSBangs I don't think that tells you about rep change, does it?

And the other disadvantage - unless someone's going to tell me a way round it, which I'd be very happy to hear about - is that it always requires a click: there's no way to just bookmark the page, and then bring it straight up

Martha

@psmears As far as I can tell, all discussion of this topic on Meta has been ruthlessly suppressed.

@psmears This.

psmears

That's no big hardship when I'm at home (with proper computer, proper mouse and decent internet speeds) - but when I'm trying to use the site from my phone (to make use of a spare two minutes in between times), having to click on that tiny button and waiting for another page load can make the difference between being able to respond to new comments and not having time to...

@Martha I may try my own luck and attempt to raise this on Meta at some stage... but I feel I've already used up my spare SO time for today :-/

Martha

20:21

@psmears, in other news, @Kosmonaut reopened the question you've been editing.

Kosmonaut

I still am not exactly happy with it.

But I don't know if I am being too cranky about it or not.

psmears

Yay, thanks @Kosmonaut! I'm hoping that a suitable answer or two will make it all feel better...

Martha

Hey, I just noticed that the duplicate message has been changed from "Possible Duplicate" to "Exact Duplicate"! It's still formatted as a blockquote, though.

Kosmonaut

Well, it's a start.

F'x

@Martha do you mean there?

1

Q: Help on what “google-fu” means

Exact Duplicate: Can anyone tell me what the suffix “-fu” stands for in the following sentence? I was reading developer article on searching MSDN network when I find sentence talks about google-fu. It says, “To search for C++ delimeters and code snippets is going to take a li...

I edited this message, the "possible" annoys me much

Kosmonaut

20:35

lol

Edited by hand!

Martha

@Fx Ah, ok. (Hmph.)

kiamlaluno

Fantastic, now a user with 100% of closed questions pretends to say to the others when they posted off-topic questions.

Kosmonaut

@kiamlaluno What are you referring to?

kiamlaluno

19

Q: What does "TL;DR:" mean?

I found two different sentences that were prefixed by TL;DR:. What does it mean? TL;DR: I've been here for quite some time, spent considerable time and effort in shaping the […].

usage

See the comments from D W.

I have never known to be so important that moderators don't even close my questions.

F'x

@kiamlaluno I am sorry, I probably agree with him a bit

I don't remember, but I visited the question and clearly the second downvote it mine

but I suppose the endless stream of comments the guy generated is even worse than just having the question

kiamlaluno

20:39

@Fx If you think it's off-topic, you can vote to close it.

Kosmonaut

I think the question isn't that bad — it's not truly a dictionary question because I don't think it would be in trustworthy dictionaries.

F'x

@kiamlaluno I probably did back then; votes decay away

Kosmonaut

Also, "tl;dr" has taken on an extended use, as shown in kiamlaluno's example

F'x

and I'm not angry or anything that it wasn't closed, as other people have a different opinion

Kosmonaut

It doesn't simply mean "too long; didn't read". Now it also means "what follows is the short version for those who didn't want to read the long version".

kiamlaluno

20:41

@Fx That means that with all the users who can vote to close, there have not been 5 users who thought it was off-topic.

F'x

@kiamlaluno exactly, that's my point

Martha

20:51

This feels like a dupe, but my search-fu is not up to par:

0

Q: What's the difference between "onto" and "on to"

What's the difference between "onto" and "on to" and where should they be used, etc?

prepositions writing

Ok, I just used up my vote quota (yet again), so I'm taking that as a sign that I've wasted enough time here, and I need to go do some actual (gasp, horrors!) work. Have fun!

kiamlaluno

(I am glad here it's 11 PM, and I don't have to work.)

Cerberus

Hi.

kiamlaluno

Here comes @Cerberus.

Cerberus

So I do.

kiamlaluno

So do we.

psmears

21:05

@Martha Perhaps this is what you were after?

0

Q: What's the difference between "onto" and "on to"

What's the difference between "onto" and "on to" and where should they be used, etc?

prepositions writing

Not an exact dupe, but related...

Cerberus

21:20

I just realized how striking the two different modes of inversion are in this sentence:

So I do.

So do I.

Apparently emphasis is on on the final word each time.

But the word "so" already induces inversion on its own in some cases... so this is probably a bit more complicated.

psmears

So it is.

Cerberus

Hmm why isn't "so is it" possible?

Well I suppose it is possible, just not in this context.

psmears

It's possible as a question ("So, is it?"), but that's cheating :)

Cerberus

No it is also possible elsewhere:

psmears

And yes it can theoretically happen elsewhere, but it's hard to come up with a non-contrived example :)

Cerberus

21:24

Keep that dog away from me! — You are a stinking monster, why be so unfriendly? — So is it! I don't want to stink even more than I already do!

Or some such natural example.

psmears

("My brother has a dog. He is smelly. So is it.")

2

Hmm, almost-jinx!

Cerberus

Okay... tell me you read my example before you made up yours?

psmears

Nope!

Cerberus

My God. We are weird. How can we think of people stinking like dogs at the same time, with so little context?

psmears

I actually pressed enter on mine before yours appeared - yours took a few seconds to come up, due to my connection being slow...

Cerberus

21:26

I know the phenomenon.

This proves that people are truly weird in this room. So is it.

psmears

Clearly EL&U makes you psychic:

1 hour ago, by Martha

Spooky. :)

Cerberus

Spooky is the word.

Too bad those time stamps are like "1 hour ago" now.

Have you ever posted an answer in the exact same second as someone else? I have, and it was weird.

psmears

You can hover over the timestamps to see the exact time

Cerberus

Oh!

psmears

(a trick I only learnt today, in that same discussion in fact :) )

Cerberus

21:30

Hah.

Well that shows I am not alone.

Do you know what the Z means after the time?

Probably nothing, as it is in all time stamps.

psmears

Not that I've noticed... though what would be really spooky would be if the two answers were identical too (and longer than a single word of course!)

I'm assuming it means "GMT"

I think I've come across that usage before, though I can't recall where

And "z" isn't easy to search for...

Cerberus

Hmm...

psmears

Yes, in fact here goes:

Cerberus

theweatherprediction.com/basic/ztime

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus It means Zulu time, a.k.a. GMT.

psmears

21:33

Coordinated Universal Time

Coordinated Universal Time (abbreviated UTC) is the time standard by which the world regulates clocks and time. Computer servers, online services and other entities that rely on having a universally accepted time use UTC for that purpose. Coordinated Universal Time is a time standard based on International Atomic Time (TAI) with leap seconds added at irregular intervals to compensate for the Earth's slowing rotation. Leap seconds are used to allow UTC to closely track UT1, which is mean solar time at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich. Since the difference between UTC and UT1 is not all...

Cerberus

@Kiam: Thanks! Why Zulu?

psmears

The wikipedia article goes into that - basically because "Z" is "Zulu" in some phonetic alphabets ("A=Alpha, B=Bravo, C=Charlie etc.")

Cerberus

Yeah I just read it.

NATO alphabet they call it.

I'm actually not sure what I'd use for Z.

kiamlaluno

Zorro!

As alternative, I can think of zuzzurellone.

Cerberus

Hah yes, of course, zuzzurellone, why didn't I think of that.

kiamlaluno

21:39

It's what I say all days, before to fall asleep.

navysite.de/what/zulu.htm

Cerberus

Hey, Kiam, do you know how Italian z is rendered in IPA?

kiamlaluno

Which z? :-)

Cerberus

Oh dear... in grazie?

kiamlaluno

I think there are two z in Italian.

Cerberus

Oh: cane you give two example words?

(Hey, I used an Italian accent in my English spelling, the extra e!)

kiamlaluno

21:40

I know, you will say there are no z in Italian. :-)

Cerberus

?

Not English z for shoa... but who cares for that!

kiamlaluno

I-t-a-l-i-a-n: see? There is no z.

Cerberus

? I see a z. The one near the a.

It's just really small.

kiamlaluno

I am glad you didn't ask about gn or gl.

Cerberus

Hmm I think I got gn. But yes I keep forgetting about gl.

Gn is like English ny, isn't it?

kiamlaluno

21:46

‹z› symbolizes /dz/ or /ts/ depending on context, with few minimal pairs. For example: zanzara /dzanˈdzaːra/ "mosquito" and nazione /natˈtsjoːne/ "nation".

I took what Wikipedia says.

The digraph ‹gn› represents /ɲ/. ‹gl› represents /ʎ/ before ‹i›, and never at the beginning of a word, except in the personal pronoun and definite article gli. An exception is the word glicerina ("glycerin"), which is pronounced with a hard <g>.

To notice that the personal pronoun is egli, not gli, as it seems reading Wikipedia.

I think we call the z in zanzara, the sweet z.

There are also two ways to say s, as in rosa.

Cerberus

Ah!

Thanks, very informative.

I think I know the s: that is the same in most other languages (though usually not in Dutch).

So, do you mean gli is pronounced egli, or that it is even written egli?

I think I have seen gli written as well?

I think I know the /ʎ/ pronunciation from voglio.

kiamlaluno

The personal pronoun is egli, or lui.

Cerberus

Oh! I don't think I've seen that before.

kiamlaluno

It is spelled so.

Cerberus

OK.

But the article gli does exist?

And when is the article i used?

kiamlaluno

21:57

In Italian you read a word in the same way they are written.

Cerberus

I know... though not entirely, as you have shown.

I know it is i solisti...

kiamlaluno

Gli gnocchi, gli zeri, gli elefanti, i somari.

Cerberus

Right... so what is the rule?

kiamlaluno

It is gli stronzi, though.

Cerberus

I think I learnt the rule for lo once, but that is different. Lo stato, but il sole.

kiamlaluno

22:00

You use i when the word starts with a consonant, except if it starts with gn, and what we call "impure s."

Cerberus

Oh... and what makes an s impure?

kiamlaluno

Gli is the plural of lo.

Stato, stronzo (I am sorry for the word).

Cerberus

Really? They are used with the exact same words?

kiamlaluno

I recall it's an s followed by a consonant.

Cerberus

Ah.

kiamlaluno

22:01

Yes.

Cerberus

Okay, good to know.

kiamlaluno

Lo stato, gli stati.

Lo gnocco, gli gnocchi.

Cerberus

OK.

kiamlaluno

That is not valid for la. There is just la, not also gla.

Cerberus

I know.

kiamlaluno

22:03

La casa, la America.

You know more than I do. :-)

Cerberus

Heh you did know that there was no gla.

kiamlaluno

Gla-diolo. ;-)

Oh gla diolo che vivi nei prati...

(Now @Cerberus is looking for gla diolo.)

Cerberus

Hey I was not. We have that flower too, you know.

In fact, it is some sort of weird curse word in Dutch: achterlijke gladiool!

kiamlaluno

And I thought we had the copyright on the name!

Cerberus

Nevah!

It is probably Latin, sword-flower or something.

I still don't understand why we in Holland would curse with flowers. It doesn't work.

Besides, what didn't you guys steal from the Romans?

kiamlaluno

22:18

Google translates it with gladiolus.

Cerberus

Into Latin?

kiamlaluno

I selected English. :-)

Cerberus

Yes, my Latin dictionary says it is the name of several different kinds of plants in Latin, and it also means small sword.

kiamlaluno

Yes.

Cerberus

English probably uses the Latin plant names, as it always does.

kiamlaluno

22:20

gladiolus |ˌgladɪˈəʊləs|
noun ( pl. gladioli |-lʌɪ| )
an Old World plant of the iris family, with sword-shaped leaves and spikes of brightly coloured flowers, popular in gardens and as a cut flower.

Cerberus

Yay, long live the Old World!

kiamlaluno

I have never thought that gladiolo would derive from gladius.

I should have thought of that thinking of Operazione Gladio.

Cerberus

Qu'est-ce que c'est?

kiamlaluno

C'est plus facil!

Cerberus

Quoi? Operazione Gladio?

kiamlaluno

22:25

It's a long story. It was the name of a NATO operation, that would not allow the communists to take power on same states.

I must stop writing English at these hours.

And I should repair the keyboard of this Mac.

Apart to be an American keyboard, its shift-keys don't work with some keys, and I had to remap it to a different key.

Cerberus

I see.

Oh dear, don't get me started on Apple!

kiamlaluno

When I try to press the option-key, I instead press the command-key.

Well, it's all my fault. I used something to clear the keyboard that ruined it.

I cannot even use another keyboard, as it is a MacBook.

It is my special Mac, though.

Cerberus

Don't get me started on laptops!

I'm sure you could get it fixed, though that would probably cost, what, € 150?

kiamlaluno

I thought to fix it last time I went to USA, but I didn't take it with me.

Cerberus

22:40

Broken stuff sucks.

kiamlaluno

It sucks twice when it's your own fault.

All times I think of that, I bang my head against the wall. :-)

Cerberus

I know the feeling!

I have messed up my computer so many times trying to get this game to work that I just bought, etc...

kiamlaluno

It helps; when your head is hurting, you don't think anymore to the other thing which was hurting you.

Like I say, see the bright side.

Uhmmm... It's midnight.

psmears

It's well past midnight by my watch... what am I doing still online?!

kiamlaluno

I didn't want to split hairs, but it is 12:48 AM, here.

(I wonder if I am feeling well, if I say I didn't want to split hairs.)

psmears

22:48

yep, same time here... well past midnight :)

nearly one o'clock in fact!

Cerberus

No way, it is only 12.49 am.

The night is young!

And so are we!

psmears

Speak for yourself ;-)

Long past my bedtime :-(

kiamlaluno

Wait I convince of that my arthritis.

psmears

:)

Cerberus

Aww.

kiamlaluno

22:51

Oh, wait... I don't suffer of that.

psmears

Goodnight :)

kiamlaluno

@psmears Good night.

Cerberus

Night!

Wow Rhodri has a new picture.

The whole room is shocked!

Rhodri

It's actually an old picture I finally got round to fixing.

My Gimp-fu is weak :-(

It's not even my joke.

kiamlaluno

I was almost wondering "who is this new user, Rhodri?"

I like "iGlasses."

I heard that Apple is thinking of the next toy after iPad.

After iPod, and iPad, they think of calling it iPaid.

Rhodri

23:06

After those two, you certainly did!

kiamlaluno

;-

;-)

Cerberus

Hi.

kiamlaluno

Damn! I pinned it.

No, I didn't. Wheew!

Cerberus

Gimp-fu? I know Gimp; but fu?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Hi!

It's like Google-fu.

Cerberus

23:08

Che?

By the way, looks like Alain's starred line could use another bump...

kiamlaluno

No, non che... fu.

Cerberus

Che cosa e fu? Io so che e uno verbo Italiano... ma in Inglese?

That was my weak attempt at Italian.

I don't speak it.

kiamlaluno

I guess it's "had been."

Cerberus

I know ombra mai fu.

Rhodri

@Cerberus Italian is another language I can (more or less) pronounce, but I can't speak it either.

kiamlaluno

23:11

Sempre caro mi fu, quest'ermo colle.

Cerberus

E molto difficile!

Allora, che cosa e fu in Gimp-fu?

kiamlaluno

I guess it means "my ability of using Gimp."

Cerberus

Is it an acronym?

kiamlaluno

No; it's like Kung-fu.

Fu in kung fu means "master."

Cerberus

Oh! Got it.

I must say Photoshop is easier than Gimp.

Rhodri

23:18

@kiamlaluno I'm not sure whether that's an urban legend or not. The martial arts references I have translate "kung fu" as "hard work."

Of course that may be a free translation.

kiamlaluno

I don't know; I used both, and Gimp seemed easier.

@Rhodri The NOAD says "Chinese gongfu, from gong (merit) + fu (master)."

Cerberus

OED refuses to explain its etymology.

Rhodri

I'm really not sure about that derivation. On the other hand, I know next to nothing about Chinese languages

Cerberus

If you need to get something done, Photoshop can often do it quicker; but Gimp has a simpler interface.

Neither do I.

Martha

The main advantage to Gimp is that it's free. Otherwise, it tries to ape Photoshop a bit too much for my taste. I prefer IrFanView for simple editing (cropping and shrinking), and Paint.net for actually drawing stuff.

Cerberus

23:22

Hey I am looking for a word.

Rhodri

@Cerberus Chambers ditto.

Cerberus

@Martha: I use Irfan for quick edits too. I draw on paper.

Martha

Well, yeah, the actual actual drawing happens either on Pergamenata (an imitation parchment) or actual parchment. (Sheepskin, if I have a choice.)

E.g. my gravatar.

Cerberus

The word I am looking for is like this: an adjective that expresses that it is easy to get an overview of something quickly. "This interface is easy to to get the gist of, something like that...

Rhodri

Intuitive?

Martha

23:25

Easy to grasp?

Cerberus

@Martha: Really, you drew that yourself? Nice.

kiamlaluno

"Easy as pie"?

Martha

@Cerberus Danke schön. :)

Cerberus

Hmm, not far off, both... but not quite what I need. It also needs to express that it is easy to grasp because of some visual property I think.

I think intuitive is what most translators would choose for this word; but it is not quite as neat as Dutch overzichtelijk.

Martha

With sufficient context, transparent might work.

Or Hungarian áttekinthető :D

Wait, lemme look that up.

Cerberus

23:28

Yes, something in between transparent and intuitive would be close. But the Dutch word also summons an image of looking at a landscape from far above.

kiamlaluno

"Transpitive."

Cerberus

If only we could freely use Hungarian words in English!

@Kiam: Or weird amalgams!

Martha

The translating dictionary gives perspicuous

Cerberus

Hmm, perspicuous comes close to transparent...

kiamlaluno

You can say "cool"; you would be, well, cool.

Rhodri

23:30

@Martha That's an unusual enough word in English that it wouldn't be transparent itself!

Cerberus

Cool, right, right, I see...

Rhodri

Hmm. Mapping.

Cerberus

Mapping?

Rhodri

"Maps onto <something> well"?

I just can't think of a suitable something.

Martha

Looking up perspicuous in the regular dictionary in turn gives possible synonyms lucid, intelligible, plain, distinct, explicit.

Cerberus

23:31

Hmm I don't think any of those are as good as transparent and intuitive.

Overzichtelijk can also be used to describe the order of parts of a text.

If a text is overzichtelijk, it is easy to see what's important and what isn't.

Martha

It may be a case where you need to use both transparent and intuitive to get your point across.

Cerberus

That is what I fear!

I am glad English doesn't have the answer for everything.

Martha

Yeah, and you can't really construct words in English too well. áttekinthetőség = across + gaze + ability + state of being.

Rhodri

@Cerberus English has the answer for everything, just not always in one word ;-)

Cerberus

@Rhodri: Heh, well, if it does, I'm waiting!

The same for the word ontwikkeld.

kiamlaluno

23:38

I keep thinking "cool" is the right word. :-)

Cerberus

If someone is ontwikkeld, it means he is educated, erudite, but it is a broader word. It means he has had Bildung.

I think formation is sometimes used in a sense close to Bildung? Or perhaps not.

Hmm I don't think so.

kiamlaluno

He doesn't think so.

Is that different from "he doesn't so think"?

Cerberus

"He doesn't so think" sounds odd.

The order "so think" is archaic; "doesn't" is modern.

Rhodri

The closest (archaic) meaning would be "he doesn't think in such a manner"

i.e. "He doesn't think like that."

But yes, it sounds very odd to a modern English ear.

Billare

I've noticed that people tend to be fascinated with "e.g., i.e." questions.

They always get a lot of views.

Why? It isn't so difficult to learn.

Cerberus

23:44

He doth not so thinke.

Martha

I just got "Nice Answer" badge #13 for my jinx answer. Seems oddly appropriate.

Cerberus

@Billare: Hi! I think perhaps it is because people can't remember such obscure acronyms?

@Martha: Someone is trying to pull your leg, I'm sure.

Martha

Lordy, Yoichi is at it again.

0

Q: Is someone “can’t be talked out of it” in a trouble a quite natural expression?

I found the expression a 24-year-old pilotwho landed his plane on beach “could not be talked out of it” when he was in trouble’ in today’s New York Times article titled “A Beach Landing? Well, He’d Seen It on TV.” (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06plane.html) To me ‘could not be talk...

phrases

Billare

@Cerberus I dunno, they seem to come up pretty often in writing. Certainly anyone's who read a technical paper has read them.

Martha

I'm not sure I currently possess the intestinal fortitude to edit that into shape.

Cerberus

23:49

@Billare: true.

Rhodri

@Martha Don't look at me. It's ten to one am here, I'll only do something drastic and unhelpful.

jgbelacqua

alloo to everyone.

Rhodri

It's the "in a trouble" that is bending my brain at the moment.

Hi @jgbelacqua

jgbelacqua

@Rhodri Oof. Was just looking at that one.

Billare

Yes, I don't understand the title either.

Maybe he means "in trouble"?

Rhodri

23:56

I think so. Thanks for the edit @Billare.

I don't subscribe to NYT, so I can't check the quote. Quotes. One of them has to be wrong.

jgbelacqua

Did they put the paywall up already?

archives, I guess....

I'm just too lazy to check, and they already had a paywall up on older articles....

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…