English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:02 PM

nemesarian

KitFox

nemecine

nemesine

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

that makes me think of a geological era

KitFox

nemescine

nemesthecine

Maybe it is a geological era I'm trying to think of.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"And here we can see in this fossil dated from the late Nemecine, two proto-snails that died while fighting over a third snail. This example is typical of the Nemecine period, so named because everything was fighting everything else all the time."

Mahnax

There's a cenozoic era.

KitFox

9:06 PM

Miocene.

Could be that.

Mitch

@KitFox internecine

@Cerberus a nemetic is what makes you reverse vomit.

KitFox

@Mitch Oh, yeah, that sounds kind of like it could be right.

What do you like better for a girl's name, Nicene or Necine?

Mitch

and her brother Creed?

Nicene is still better than Necine

Hermemeutic - deep analysis of vomit.

KitFox

Mimetic.

What's that word I like that's got mimetic in it?

Mitch

'mimetic' has itself in itself (so do a lot of other words)

KitFox

9:12 PM

Piezoelectric is stuck in my head now. I like that word too.

Mitch

Are these for character names?

Yeah...Hermy for short.

@KitFox how is that pronounced? pie - YEH - zo electric?

KitFox

@Mitch No, not these. I was just trying to remember.

Mitch

or PYEH tso electric?

KitFox

I say pee a zoe electric, but I don't remember the correct pronunciation.

Mitch

OK, just caught up with the thread. I should read first before repeating what every one else has said already. Luckily no one has said that yet.

@KitFox we should all agree not to say it outloud. You can write it but saying it is taboo.

I think we should have no holds barred profanity day on ELU. The entire text of all the titles of questions would have to be starred.

KitFox

9:16 PM

Something mimetic. scratches head I should be writing instead of trying to remember.

Mitch

but f course that's not the main point. The main point is to discuss profanity.

KitFox

Describing a sort of device that used to be used to copy signals for codebreaking maybe.

Cryptomimetic? That's a cool word, but that doesn't seem right.

Mitch

@KitFox just put in *'s for words you can't think of so you can just continue. The editor can fill in later...

or it can be faux 18th c elision.

Johan Larsson

Name her Tarja, Finnish name

KitFox

No, her name is Nicene.

Maybe her friend can be Tarja.

Mitch

9:18 PM

In English, that sounds like a pet's name.

Matt Эллен

Tarja the Otter

Mitch

a really faithful dog.

Tarja, not always there in the best of times, but right by your side in a crisis.

Johan Larsson

It sounds strange in Swedish too, I call my mother in law Tarja, dunno why I started. Now many call her that.

KitFox

I knew a Norwegian woman named Ilsa.

Why are you distracting me when I should be writing this profound story?

Matt Эллен

oh! right! the exercise...

um

Mitch

9:20 PM

You profound story, exploring the depths of the human condition, pales in universal significance here.

poop.

KitFox

I am loving some far away memories right now. I wish I had some scotch.

Johan Larsson

@KitFox I believe you took a trip to procrasti-nation

Mitch

Is the scotch the memory or just an accompaniment?

KitFox

I wish I had some smokes too.

@Mitch Just an accompaniment.

Johan Larsson

My grandmother's name was Elsa

Robusto

9:21 PM

0

Q: What would Prof. William Strunk Jr. say about writing saute vs. sauté today?

I have no idea what I’m doing. Catch as catch can. “Saute” seems correct to me, but I was clobbered by someone who insisted I was “just ignorant”. (I won’t argue that.) I assume purists will insist the accent pretty much always be used for foreign loan words. But... I’m writing in English. ...

This is a dupe.

Mitch

I have a picture of my mom as a 20 something with a glass of liquor in one hand and a cigarette in the other.

Cerberus

"Saute", I hate that.

KitFox

Picture? I remember my mom that way...

@Cerberus jumps

Cerberus

Saute sounds like sotte.

Mitch

@KitFox Oh, then just have the scotch. If the memory doesn't come then you at least had the scotch.

Cerberus

9:23 PM

Ah, see, my autocorrect automatically makes that sauté.

@KitFox Yes?

Mitch

'Prof William Strunk Jr' sounds like he's an ass.

Johan Larsson

why?

Matt Эллен

is he a junior professor?

Mitch

appeal to authority by authoritative credentialing.

Robusto

Argumentum ad verecundiam.

Mitch

9:26 PM

@MattЭллен That's 'Prof.-Jr.' to you.

@Robusto Beating you with the authority stick.

Matt Эллен

To me? Oh! you shouldn't have. really.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Personally, I find the cedilla in "façade" completely necessary, because I don't believe one finds that "s" sound spelled similarly anywhere else in the English lexicon -- its presence is a good guide to its pronunciation for the uninitiated. Do you agree with my preference here, or do you see that as overly stodgy? — Billare Feb 27 '11 at 5:10

Robusto

Ouch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Was that supposed to be a joke?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah. because you're supposed to pronounce it 'fuh KAHD'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:28 PM

@Mitch No, I mean, his notion that the "C" can't be pronounced as "S".

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It can't be pronounced as an S.

Unless it isn't.... er... is.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why a joke? He is right.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 C before a, d'oh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or is the ç pronounced totally differently than s?

Cerberus

No, the same.

Mitch

I can't think of any other 'ca' pronounced /sa/ but I'm sure there are more.

soupcon barely counts.

Robusto

9:31 PM

I remember pronouncing facade like "FAKE-AID" back when I was in 8th grade, but once someone clued me in it didn't really slow me down after that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's hardly surprising that a c could be pronounced as "s", even if it wouldn't normally be the case when followed by an A. but so what? one more exception. The alternative, that that word has its own letter ç that appears in no other words, seems worse to me.

KitFox

Canada = Sanada right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox No, it's a misspelling of Kanada

KitFox

Haha.

OK, I'm headed home. Oh. And the expansion is released, right on time.

Mitch

@KitFox wtf. what else -is- there?

KitFox

9:33 PM

@Mitch You'll have to read it when it's done.

Bye!

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's deceptive.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 exactly.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox woo!

Mitch

except...even though there are the millions of exceptions o the rules in English, it would be weird to think there's an exception for "ca"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch but either way it's an exception.

English words don't have ç. Except façade. Or English words are pronounced with a K when spelled ca. Except facade.

Cerberus

9:39 PM

The cedille is the best solution.

Robusto

Hey, cedilla doesn't even have a cedilla.

Cerberus

It is immediately clear. And facade is jarring.

Mitch

cedilla is self negating. It should be 'cudilla'

@Cerberus the door in the facade is ajar.

Cerberus

!

Mitch

@Cerberus when you put all the diacritcs on my keyboard I will use them.

Cerberus

9:43 PM

I actually once downloaded a program called CU-dilla.

Robusto

Hmm, the derivation of cedilla is interesting.

> [Obsolete Spanish, diminutive of ceda, the letter z (so called because a small z was formerly written after a c, and later below it, to indicate that the normal hard c was to be pronounced as a sibilant, like s or z), from Late Latin zta, zeta, from Greek; see zeta.]

Mitch

It's what a calf chews on.

Robusto

So we come full circle.

Cerberus

It was in order to remove C-dilla, an annoying DRM program.

@Mitch Haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus how is it the best solution?

Cerberus

9:44 PM

@Robusto Yeah, I wonder why French took it from Spanish.

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

It is immediately clear. And facade is jarring.

Mitch

@Robusto A 'z' sounds like a bee.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's only clear to people who speak French or Spanish

Robusto

@Mitch No. It sounds like a cee.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Other ELLs won't know what to do with a ç

And won't be able to type it

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's the relevant crowd.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:45 PM

@Cerberus No it isn't

Cerberus

Yes it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The relevant crowd is people who are reading English.

Mitch

@Cerberus uh, no... it isn't.

Cerberus

The others won't know what a façade is anyway.

Mitch

@Robusto if you whisper.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:46 PM

@Cerberus why not? It's an English word - we're merely discussing what is the better English spelling of that English word

Mitch

@Cerberus it's staring you in the face.

they should just call it veneer.

Robusto

@Cerberus That's because facades are easy to see through.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not a simple word.

@Robusto Stop it!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What do you mean? The meaning of the word is totally irrelevant.

Cerberus

@Mitch Are you a façade? Interesting.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it's not.

There's no reason to dumb down the spelling of semi-sophisticated words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:48 PM

@Cerberus How is it a sophisticated word?

Mitch

@Cerberus did you fix my keyboard yet?

Cerberus

There's no reason to dumb down anything.

fixes keyboard

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not an extremely common word.

Mitch

nope, still doesn't work: c C {

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Exactly. Don't dumb down the spelling rules: use your memory to remember that in this case, facade has a soft C. Be smart, memorize exceptions!

Cerberus

No, it's jarring and ugly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:49 PM

@Cerberus It's very common in some circles. Like architecture and programming.

Cerberus

Let's not make English spelling any more ugly and jarring than it already is!

Mitch

English spelling kicks the ass of any copmeting orthography, even Chinese (that's just chicken scratch)

Cerberus

If you're an architect, surely you have the opportunity to look at a French text once in your life and notice the cedille.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Putting the ç in there makes it seem like you're trying to use a French word, like you're being snobby.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh yeah, exactly. spelled 'f a c a d e' no cedilla.

Matt Эллен

9:50 PM

Cerberus? Snobby?

Cerberus

@Mitch Chicken scratch, oh dear...

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no I think he's -being- snobby.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Never!

Matt Эллен

:D

Mitch

@Cerberus you should see -my- hand writing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:51 PM

@Cerberus Why would you look at a French text? Maybe your native language is Hindi, and you're learning English.

Cerberus

Çerberus snubs at the accusation of snobbery

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is important culturally.

Mitch

sniffs at sad attempt at dispelling accusations of snobbery

Cerberus

Why look at anything at all?

Mitch

also turns up nose

to stop the sniffing

it's cold out you know

Cerberus

Hey, I wasn't trying to dispel it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:52 PM

@Cerberus What is, the cedille?

Cerberus

French culture and language to English culture and language.

Mitch

@Cerberus all your arguments work just fine for any orthography for anything...as long as there is an easy to use input interface.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Look: English does not use a cedille on words that have a soft C. why should facade be any different?

Mitch

and there ain't any

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:53 PM

@Mitch Well, there is, you just don't have it because your computer is inferior to the demands. Or you didn't turn that feature on.

On my android phone it's trivial to input a ç.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because hardly any other word with -ca- in English has a soft c.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 starts using a çedilla on soft ç's

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But why should we use a non-english diacritic for an english word? How is that any improvement over memorizing an exception to the pronunciation rules?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 same here, if I change my keyboard to the -French- one, and I'm not writing French right now. Also, I'm not on my phone right now (you can tell because I can spell)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Next you'll start insisting that people put tone marks on Chinese loan words

Cerberus

9:55 PM

Because otherwise it's jarring.

Mitch

@Cerberus my keyboard is still the same as before, no cedilla.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, it isn't jarring. As a native English speaker, I can testify that it is not.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You don't?

Cerberus

Fine, abolish all foreign diacritics, then, if you like.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I just use the numbers

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:55 PM

In fact my spell-check doesn't accept façade but it accepts facade.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it is.

My spell check corrects façade into façade.

It is an English spelling checker.

Robusto

@Cerberus You're sooo diacritical.

Cerberus

Always!

Mitch

@Cerberus that's a charade (my spellcheck changed the pronunciation to make it sound British and snobby)

Cerberus

Great!

Robusto

9:57 PM

No. It's a çharade.

Cerberus

Sauté and façade are great examples where the lack of a diacritic mark is jarring. In other words, it is not jarring.

Mitch

@Robusto that's an exception to the exception to the rule

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch So when you hire a feng shui expert for selling your house in Chinatown, you'd insist on writing fēng shǔi?

Mitch

@Cerberus It is very jarring if you're french.

Cerberus

Unless you want to abolish and and all foreign diacritics, you must have the ç in façade,

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:58 PM

@Cerberus yes. Put me down for abolishing foreign diacritics in English words.

Mitch

It is also jarring to hear those words pronounced non-french if you're french.

Cerberus

@Mitch It is just jarring, period!

hands on hips

Matt Эллен

honey's very jarring

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 He would insist on writing it 堪輿.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

We also abolish their alphabets too when we import their words.

Cerberus

9:58 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, if you're a radical, why pick on façade specifically?

Mitch

@MattЭллен please I told you not to call me honey in front of the guys.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus because I saw a comment about it on the site earlier

Matt Эллен

@Mitch sorry baby-loo

Cerberus

Fine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto what is 堪輿?

Robusto

10:00 PM

The river flows, it flows to the sea / Wherever that river goes, that's where I want to be.

Cerberus

Façade would be the last word I would abolish diacritics on.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Feng shui.

Cerberus

That one née is not nearly as necessary.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto 風水

Mitch

@MattЭллен augh.

Robusto

10:01 PM

@Cerberus Really? Even before déjà vu?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's the simplified spelling. Cerberus would never use that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto No, those are different words

Cerberus

@Robusto Even after déjà vu, yes, because that is still pronounced in a somewhat similar way.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, what the hell is this?? My poor eyes, it's so jarring!

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, you've just written the characters for wind and water. How is that feng shui?

Cerberus

Silly jarring chicken scratches.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto feng = wind, shui = water

Feng shui

Feng shui ( ; , ) is a Chinese system of geomancy believed to use the laws of both Heaven (Chinese astronomy) and Earth to help one improve life by receiving positive qi. The original designation for the discipline is Kan Yu (; literally: Tao of heaven and earth). The term feng shui literally translates as "wind-water" in English. This is a cultural shorthand taken from the passage of the now-lost Classic of Burial recorded in Guo Pu's commentary: Qi rides the wind and scatters, but is retained when encountering water. Historically, feng shui was widely used to orient buildings—oft...

Robusto

10:03 PM

Ah. Then my C&P from the Wikipedia entry was ill advised.

Haha, I didn't read it, just copied the first (well, the second) hanzi term I saw.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ah, oops :)

Robusto

And if it doesn't work out, don't forget to sue Barrie England—if that's his real name. — Robusto 14 secs ago

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, irregardless of cerb's aesthetic objections, I'm going to stick with the hoi polloi and spell it facade.

Bye!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 !

You bastard!

shakes paw

Robusto

I love it when my Chilean colleague refers to table cell elements as "TDs" ... his pronunciation makes it sound like titties.

Matt Эллен

10:09 PM

> The original designation for the discipline is Kan Yu

Yes I can!

Robusto

The hoi polloi strike again.

@MattЭллен No yu kant.

user19161

Non Sequitur strikes again.

user19161

@Robusto Genghis Khan but Immanuel Kant.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I'm not Kant

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Goddamn you, you said 'the' and 'hoi' together! You pleonastic troglodyte!

Robusto

10:10 PM

If you freeze a Kant does it become a canticle?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch pleonastic tautology

Mitch

I like troglodytes better. more calories for that quick burst of energy right when you need it.

@JasonBourne dude..I thought you didn't exist.

user19161

@Mitch The dead are walking, as @rob says.

Robusto

No. Just talking.

Mitch

@MattЭллен but your pleonastic ones you can chew all day without losing flavor.

Robusto

10:12 PM

And you are dead to me, so stop trying to haunt my chat.

user19161

By the way, there is still no rep lost for you guys, how strange!

Mitch

He means that in the nicest way.

Robusto

I do.

Mitch

...Donny.

Robusto

@JasonBourne Maybe the report of your death was an exaggeration.

user19161

10:14 PM

@Robusto But it's true, they even emailed me saying "your accounts have been deleted".

Robusto

Maybe it rose again as a zombie.

The Talking Dead ... isn't there a TV show like that?

user19161

Maybe they have now two kinds of deletion, one that removes votes and one that doesn't.

Matt Эллен

this redundant pleonastic tautology is going to bed.

Robusto

Kinda early for bed, ne?

user19161

Maybe he is doing something with someone before sleeping, LOL.

Robusto

10:20 PM

BTW, no one congratulated me on double-digit gold.

user19161

@Robusto Congrats!

Robusto

Thanks.

user19161

I will be here when you attain 100k as well, with a camera.

Robusto

You're going to wait a long time.

Johan Larsson

and possibly work up some rep in the process?

Cerberus

10:27 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So Americans may now face 5 years in prison for unlocking a phone.

techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20130128/02192521803/…

And a $ 500,000 fine.

Robusto

@Cerberus Seriously, WTF?

Cerberus

Oh, and you can get 10 years for unlocking a second phone.

Yay!

@Robusto Yes.

Robusto

America is broken.

5

Cerberus

It is a silly law.

Robusto

This is worse than debtor's prison.

Cerberus

10:30 PM

Does that still exist?

In Aztec society, and possibly in Ancient Greece too, you were sold as a slave if you couldn't pay back your debts.

I guess that is better than 10 years in prison.

Robusto

@Cerberus No. It was abolished for a reason. But things like it keep coming back, where property — even imaginary property — is valued more than human life.

Cerberus

A house slave had a decent life.

@Robusto Yup, that's the problem.

Or part of it.

The real problem is the infiltration of government by ruthless businesses.

Ya think?

Naaaah.

I think!

10:32 PM

We have the best politicians money can buy.

3

Cerberus

Just an idle thought.

Haha.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto you made it up or quote?

Robusto

You don't recognize Tolstoi?

Cerberus

@Robusto Why don't you break it by separating the good people from the bad, by moving all corrupted officials and backward boors to, say, Texas and force it to secede?

Robusto

Texas has a petition to secede already.

Cerberus

10:33 PM

I recognise the quote, but I didn't know / forgot that it was from T.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto sadly not, been a long time since read him

Cerberus

@Robusto So help them a little.

Robusto

abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/…

@JohanLarsson Just messing with you.

Cerberus

We could move Ed to the coasts.

> ... while I doubt that prosecutors would straight up charge someone for merely unlocking their phone, if they're looking to pile on (or threaten to pile on) more charges against some "hacker" for a variety of other actions, it's not hard to see scenarios where this would be lumped in with other threats or charges.

This is the most likely scenario where these penalties become relevant.

They probably won't send some random guy to prison for 10 years over unlocking his phone, but they might for undesirables.

Like hackers.

Whistle-blowers.

Robusto

Wow, Amazon is selling one CD for half the price of the MP3 download.

Johan Larsson

10:40 PM

CD is more dead as data carrier than vinyl?

Robusto

Evidently.

I know I don't buy CDs anymore. MP3s from Amazon is the way to go for me. Good rips, and I can't lose my music.