English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2013-01-16 (page 2 of 8)

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Joseph Weissman

2:00 AM

Kind of kidding. We were discussing Simulacra and Simulation.

Simulacra and Simulation

Simulacra and Simulation () is a philosophical treatise by Jean Baudrillard seeking to interrogate the relationship among reality, symbols, and society. Simulacra are copies that depict things that either had no reality to begin with, or that no longer have an original. Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time. Overview Simulacra and Simulation is most known for its discussion of symbols, signs, and how they relate to contemporaneity (simultaneous existences). Baudrillard claims that our current society has replaced all reality and meani...

@Cerberus had all kinds of questions :)

Si, si.

It is now 11 and a half hours since I left home.

Always.

Joseph Weissman

Jesus.

Jesus was Caesar.

J.C.

2:01 AM

I'm a little crunchy and brittle and bitter and pissed and tired and whacked out.

I hate cities with all my heart and mind and soul.

No, I hate traffic.

Either take the roundabout way or make yourself comfortable at work (I recommend the former).

Joseph Weissman

How about people? They're good to hate, too.

Naaaah they're not so bad.

I like people. Especially with port sauce.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist can you get to a hotel?

Did you see how there is no green there?

Joseph Weissman

2:02 AM

Okay. Some of them, maybe.

Not as tasty as beef, but still.

@cornbreadninja No that tired yet, and just took a cup of coffee.

Did you see how my route home is like an arrow pointed at the green?

I get crazy and depressed if I am cut off from the green too long.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist I was imagining that if you could get out, you'd have some dinner first.

A week would do it, maybe 4-5 days. I know from experience.

I stopped and got some bean burritos on the way back.

user image

2:04 AM

Gag!

Now what??

It's so funny how all the roads are orthogonal to each other.

Which road is that?

Not on your route.

It just looked funny.

Actually, the Denver major thoroughfares are anything but rectilinear.

More like wrecked a linear.

Yeah, that's funny.

I wonder why.

2:06 AM

I once knew the reason. There is an historical reason for it.

Cow paths, or trains, or something.

Oh, nice.

user image

See what I mean?

There are two grids, at 45 degrees from each other. And the main roads are non-grid.

Yes, I saw it already on TT.

Weird, Edmonton has a park named after Giovanni Caboto.

Explorer, landed in Newfoundland in 1497.

Why weird?

2:16 AM

I'm not really sure. It just doesn't fit. shrugs

@Mahnax Newfoundland is far from Alberta.

Is the park wild and unexplored?

So why name a park for him?

I think he means a city park.

@tchrist Rather.

We have an Atatürkplein.

@tchrist I know.

2:19 AM

Right next to Ataboyplein.

Ataboy?

Who is that?

We have been here before.

@Cerberus Well, it might be in that part of the city…

Uhh...

@Cerberus Oh, come on, man!

2:20 AM

I don't remember.

Say it out loud.

Ahh.

Sep 9 '12 at 2:10, by tchrist

I have been trying to teach @Cerberus what an attaboy is.

That's a good boy?

Not exactly.

2:20 AM

But sort of.

Sep 9 '12 at 2:11, by Spare Oom

I imagine a slap on the back with an attaboy.

Sep 9 '12 at 2:07, by tchrist

at·ta·boy/ˈatəˌboi/
Exclamation: An informal expression of encouragement or admiration, typically to a man or boy.
Noun: A piece of encouragement or congratulations, esp. a letter: "our boss will write you guys an attaboy".

I only understand it now that Mahnax has explained to me how it is related to the pronunciation.

Not the same as "that's a good boy", which is more like an affirmation of good behaviour in a child.

Sort of.

Keep it clean. There are minors about.

Sep 9 '12 at 2:08, by tchrist

attaboy /ˈætəbɔɪ/, int. slang (chiefly U.S.).

Also at-a-boy, ata boy.

Etymology: Said to represent careless pronunc. of that’s the boy! (boy sb.1 2 c).

An exclamation expressive of encouragement or admiration. Hence attagirl, etc., as nonce-wds.

M..ax already said it was interesting I was trying to teach Cerb what an attaboy is.

2:25 AM

I can't read everything.

"That's a good boy" is something you might say to one who has the good grace not to talk with his mouth full. You might award one an attaboy to who is making an especial effort on a very tough job.

If you think those are interchangeable, then you have far too vivid an imagination. :)

> In this scene, Billy hits a home run in his baseball game.

> "Attaboy, Billy!" shouts his father.

Joseph Weissman

Attaboy, Billy!

/not the father

Precisely.

@JosephWeissman It's funny, because someone did a spoof of one of those things except it was with Mary and Joseph and baby Jesus.

Joseph, you are not the father!

cheers erupt

That sort of thing.

Joseph Weissman

I am not the father!

2:30 AM

Mary wept.

cornbread ninja

the kid is not my son

Joseph Weissman

"And just who does this 'Yahweh' guy think he is, anyway?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cornbreadninja eee-hee!

Joseph Weissman

Thunder rumbles

cornbread ninja

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 :D

2:33 AM

Look here. It looks like they reopened the road. Though the I-25 route through the heart of Denver is if anything worse: more black.

Joseph Weissman

Speaking of simulating things:

cornbread ninja

@tchrist none more black.

Joseph Weissman

Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote

"Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" (original Spanish title: "Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote") is a short story by Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges. It originally appeared in Spanish in the Argentine journal Sur in May 1939. The Spanish-language original was first published in book form in Borges's 1941 collection El Jardín de senderos que se bifurcan (The Garden of Forking Paths), which was included in his much-reprinted Ficciones (1944). Plot summary "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" is written in the form of a review or literary critical piece about Pierre Menard, a ficti...

@Cerberus I love this story.

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The I-25 route is black/stopped. The 470 route claims green=good.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!

@JosephWeissman Haha perfect irony.

I love it.

@tchrist Follow Tomtom!

Good luck...

cornbread ninja

2:39 AM

@tchrist bon voyage!

@JosephWeissman Surely you will agree that this lays bare a great weakness in reader-response theory?

Hasta.

@tchrist See you later.

Joseph Weissman

I'm sure I will consider the proposition carefully if you wish to elaborate :)

( full text, rather short: coldbacon.com/writing/borges-quixote.html )

@JosephWeissman Haha...

I mean, you will agree that praising one work more than the other is a bit silly, won't you?

Joseph Weissman

2:42 AM

Is it?

I think it is.

Joseph Weissman

I think that might be one way of stating the challenge the work poses.

> He did not want to compose another Quixote —which is easy— but the Quixote itself

I mean, when I know a certain building is very old, I will like it more; and when I know it is a modern fake, I will like it less, even if I cannot perceive any difference. But I do recognise that this is in a way a bit silly, and I won't say "this decoration is more beautiful than that in the fake building".

Joseph Weissman

Sure, but I think Menard's work is deeper than that -- it's not fake; again, not just another Quixote...

So...

Joseph Weissman

2:45 AM

This goes to the heart of what is meant by certain speculative philosophers as repetition...

--And we are already back on the high seas... :)

Heh.

No two things are in all respects the same, by definition.

But...

Joseph Weissman

But?

@Cerberus so identities are simulacra? :)

Ehhh...

It doesn't mean, however, that two things cannot be so alike in a certain aspect that it makes no sense to judge them differently based on that very aspect.

Joseph Weissman

(Just wondering why you went there first I guess... unless you weren't primed by the model-copy stuff.)

Umm...

@JosephWeissman I don't know what you mean by simulacra exactly in this context.

Joseph Weissman

2:50 AM

The question about Menard's Quixote -- which is not a copy of the original, but nevertheless is "faithful" in this superficial sense, that it duplicates it exactly, word-for-word

Your question about whether a difference becomes perceptible. And it does, it is perceptible; even palpable, though this may be surprising :)

The question resolves to the origin of the copy; but the origin is alien, it reprograms the subterranean logic of the work, connects it to a different world.

@JosephWeissman What is the difference between a copy and an exact duplicate?

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus whether carbons were used?

Joseph Weissman

That's the question, right? Repetition, doubles, clones -- this uncanny "maximum" of difference appropriate to a double

@cornbreadninja Is it?

@JosephWeissman Why is there a maximum of difference?

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus that's the first difference I came up with.

@Cerberus both the original and the exact duplicate are generated at the same time when a carbon is used.

Joseph Weissman

2:54 AM

The clone has another world...

@cornbreadninja Uhh...

@JosephWeissman How do you mean? And why is this "maximum" difference?

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus ?

I have no generation.

Ow.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cornbreadninja But the original is written in pen and the carbon-copy in carbon

cornbread ninja

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sure.

Joseph Weissman

2:57 AM

Well, the fundamental insight would be that commentary should double, repeat; the strictest repetition involves a maximum of difference.

cornbread ninja

I'm too young for X and too old for the millennials, which, depending on who you ask is or is not the same as generation y.

but I digress.

@JosephWeissman Huh, I don't understand at all, sorry.

Joseph Weissman

Deleuze calls this slow-motion: commentary as immobilization or congelation of the text -- not only of the text which they relate, but the text into which they are inserted as well -- so much so that they have a double existence and a corresponding ideal: the pure repetition of the former and present text in one another.

Okay, but...that would apply to any text referring to any other text. In short, to every text.

An infinite chain linking back to the beginning of time.

The basic premise of intertextuality.

Joseph Weissman

Well, Deleuze is talking about commentary in the history of philosophy in particular. But he's clearly thinking of Menard here; he calls this somewhere a "generalized Menardism"... :)

Again: great commentary repeats, but repetition exacts this 'maximum' of difference.

3:03 AM

I still don't understand this maximum. Why not a minimum?

Joseph Weissman

Borges outlines at least one key difference between the texts -- the world the texts are plugged into, the different singular conditions from which they emerge and to which they respond.

I don't know. I wouldn't call that a maximum difference. A rather small difference, rather. How do you measure the size of a text anyway, in this way?

Joseph Weissman

I'm tempted to bring in Derrida here. It's still basically the same economic problem we were discussing earlier.

Economic? Is it?

Joseph Weissman

Well: at least it's about the infinitely-cautious regimen used to create the text; this is reflected in the fact that the subterranean infrastructure of the work is significantly altered, in a way that I think is irreducible to the world changing: after all the transformation or becoming that matters is Menard's, the process by which he authors his/the Quixote.

It doesn't merely question authorial integrity. It seems to me more radical, in a way similar to the Library of Babel -- no decoding, no commentary, no interpretation can be certain.

(If only because of this mad counter-example: that these apparently identical texts have, necessarily, radically different interpretative matrices and requirements.)

3:12 AM

That is true. But who would claim that any interpretation could be certain?

An interpretation is about what the interpreter thinks is relevant.

Usually, this includes speculation about authorial intent.

Joseph Weissman

Alright?

nods

Joseph Weissman

I guess I'm willing to concede it for the sake of discussion but I'm not sure I'd concur that authorial intent is either necessary or sufficient for decoding.

But I'm also wondering whether there's a larger point you might have been making I may have missed :)

@JosephWeissman I did not say it was necessary or sufficient; but what does decoding mean here?

@JosephWeissman Heh, I think my point was that I didn't understand your point.

We're so symmetrical.

Joseph Weissman

Interpreting is decoding a text according to some schema; if these schema rely on the stable identity of the author, they might miss certain (critical) dimensions of the work.

(Would be a very basic/fundamental point here.)

3:18 AM

That is possible, yes.

Joseph Weissman

SO EVERYTHING IS SIMULATED I GOT YOU

Victory is so sweet

qed

I was just going to point out that you were assuming an original and a simulacrum, the "code".

So I feel we are two boats sailing in the same direction, sometimes touching, sometimes out of sight.

Joseph Weissman

The logic of interpretation demands this; an "original" author and so forth...

It sort of does, yes.

Joseph Weissman

Two trains, passing in the night.

choo

...*choo*

3:20 AM

Heh.

But the track leads through deep valleys and over high mountains.

And its route resembles the Cretan labyrinth.

Joseph Weissman

Set the controls for the heart of the sun, Cerbie.

AND I'M THE MINOTAUR BUWHAHAHA

Joseph Weissman

Onoes!

bites you

There.

Joseph Weissman

Ow!

3:22 AM

At least you have your male Ariadne, aka B.

Joseph Weissman

I will hack your godless matrix.

Can you?

Joseph Weissman

Nick Land writes somewhere: "Can what is playing you make it to Level 2?" :)

Hmm.

Has it pressed the elevator button?

Joseph Weissman

we'̷̡͜r͜e ̶́͟w͏or̡k̸̨i̡͢ng҉̛ ̶̕o̴͞n ̸̶͟it̵

3:27 AM

Working so hard you forgot to clean up your letters?

Or are those decorations?

@JosephWeissman A̧̤̺̔̔͆̐̍̑ͧ͟Ṳ͚̫̲̹̺̩̮̪͌͂ͤ̈́̃̓ͦG̨̧͉͉̪͙̿̉͆͘H̴̜͕̤͙͔̯ͤ͋ͅH̵̶̴͔͓̜͚̮̱̞ͣ́̍

Joseph Weissman

:D

Is it morally OK to repeatedly say sexually very explicit things to a stranger sitting next to you in the train, if she reacts disgustedly?

If not, why not?

Joseph Weissman

I'm not engaging this.

Aww.

Why not?

Joseph Weissman

3:34 AM

How is this about commentary or simulation?

It is entirely unrelated.

Joseph Weissman

Then I'm not into morality, which is about transcendent good/evil analysis, the logic of judgment.

Not into, as in not interested in, or not bound by?

Joseph Weissman

The interesting questions for me are ethical, aesthetic (at the limit, in a way, the same) -- which mode of existence? Which style of living? Logic of expression -- what do these modes and styles dramatize?

I'm not sure what verbal sexual harassment expresses, other than resentment and cruelty. Bitterness?

I was trying to analyse your ethical style.

Joseph Weissman

3:38 AM

My theme is... themes. :D

In order to explore my own.

And everybody else's.

Joseph Weissman

I need a What Would Spinoza Do bracelet :)

Heh.

Joseph Weissman

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

Borges has a beautiful poem on him:

"Time carries him as the river carries
A leaf in the downstream water.
No matter. The enchanted one insists
And shapes God with delicate geometry.
Since his illness, since his birth,
He goes on constructing God with the word.
The mightiest love was granted him
Love that does not expect to be loved.

@JosephWeissman He could be your Bible.

Joseph Weissman

3:42 AM

Deleuze calls Spinoza the "Christ" of philosophy; I can't help but think he's at least considering this (poem of Borges).

Heh.

Nice.

Joseph Weissman

Spinoza is, for me, the ‘prince’ of philosophers. (EPS 11)
Spinoza is the Christ of philosophers, and the greatest philosophers are hardly more than apostles who distance themselves from or draw near to this mystery. (WP 60)
Spinoza: the absolute philosopher, whose Ethics is the foremost book on concepts. (N 140)

(Deleuze on Spinoza)

That does sound reverent.

Joseph Weissman

Thanks for bearing with, Cerbie. I really enjoy these little talks we have

At the expense of everyone else in the room :)

Same here!

Naaah this is just a quiet time.

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Joseph Weissman

3:50 AM

ooooooh

Ladieda.

Joseph Weissman

is that a hint? :D

Nope.

Although they do have some interesting dance types there.

Joseph Weissman

To the south, is that Oz?

Nope.

Joseph Weissman

3:52 AM

Hmmph.

I feel like I should know this. Is that South Am. then?

Ding!

Joseph Weissman

So Venezuela?

If we count Puerto Rico as part of your country, then our countries are not too far off on this map.

Part of Venezuela is on the map, I think.

Joseph Weissman

And... all those little island principality things, Martinique, Grenada?

Yup!

Colonies.

Joseph Weissman

3:54 AM

I can never keep those straight. I just get the Beach Boys in my head.

St Martin is half French, half Dutch, for example.

Haha.

Joseph Weissman

"Kokomo" is a song written by John Phillips, Scott McKenzie, Mike Love, and Terry Melcher and recorded by The Beach Boys in spring 1988. Its lyrics describe two lovers taking a trip to a relaxing Caribbean island called Kokomo, which is said to only be seen by those of pure heart. It was released as a single on July 18, 1988 by Elektra Records and became a No. 1 Hit in the United States, Japan, and Australia (where it topped for about two months). The single was released to coincide with the release of the Tom Cruise movie Cocktail, and its subsequent soundtrack. It was nominated in the ...

Never have I seen that island.

Joseph Weissman

Maybe you're not pure of heart?

Oh noes!

I guess not.

Joseph Weissman

3:55 AM

Alignment shift!

What alignment are you? :D

Alignment (Dungeons & Dragons)

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, Alignment is a categorization of the ethical (Law/Chaos axis) and moral (Good/Evil axis) perspective of people, creatures and societies. Early editions of Dungeons & Dragons allowed players to choose between three alignments when creating a character: lawful, implying honor and respect for society's rules; chaotic, implying the opposite; and neutral, meaning neither. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons introduced a second axis of good, neutral and evil, offering a combination of nine alignments. The nine alignments can be represented in a gr...

I hereby declare myself to be good but chaotic.

Joseph Weissman

Nice!

I've always like "philosophical" True Neutral.

Like Mordenkainen from Greyhawk.

Well...most philosophers are hardly True Neutral.

Joseph Weissman

Well... the idea is that Mordenkainen is trying to keep the balance of power between good and evil globally static.

(I only say "philosophical" to distinguish from other possible interpretations of true neutral.)

But why not let Good prevail, if such should exist?

Joseph Weissman

3:58 AM

Maybe it's better in the long run for there to be evil for it to fight?

What does good become without evil...?

If it isn't good in the absolute sense, then does it deserve the name?

Joseph Weissman

I think part of true neutral is recognizing the banality of the alignment system itself (or at least the good-evil side of it.)

Heh.

Joseph Weissman

There's a kind of disdain of attachment, but also an almost religious commitment to something greater than the alignment system can encompass; easily the most intriguing alignment.

If indeed the system is supposed to resemble reality, then I can see the point.

If, however, true good and true evil existed in this fictional world, then I would pick good.

Joseph Weissman

4:04 AM

Sure. I mean, Good PCs aren't necessarily always "Good-behaving" -- it's an ideal, right? Something you try to live up to.

> Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being, or a substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: a hyperreal.

> The territory no longer precedes the map, nor does it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - that engenders the territory, and if one must return to the fable, today it is the territory whose shreds slowly rot across the extent of the map. It is the real, and not the map, whose vestiges persist here and there in the deserts that are no longer those of the Empire, but ours. The desert of the real itself.

@JosephWeissman How very Catholic!

I'm having paradoxical and referential issues here...

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Eat that map!

Joseph Weissman

OM NOM NOM

i am a planetivore!

Oh, dear.

As long as you only eat the planet, we'll still have the map.

Joseph Weissman

4:20 AM

i've NOO idea, @Cerberus.

Hmm are you sure?

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Joseph Weissman

Should I know this? Is it a US territory or something? :D

Nope.

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Do you recognise this archipelago now?

120 million people live on these islands.

Joseph Weissman

oh, that's jappan!

There is lots of seismic activity, because of the two tectonic plates that are colliding there.

Ding!

I knew you had it in you.

I would should you real Japan instead of a map, but...

Joseph Weissman

4:31 AM

It's a reasonable proxy given the circumstances.

I'll take it as read that you have deeded the lands and noble titles to the Kingdom of Japan to myself and my heirs in perpetuity.

I have done so in so far as I am entitled to.

TemporaryNickName

5:16 AM

great video about game programming =)

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus Looks like Sakhalin

5:37 AM

the map game

it's been ages

TemporaryNickName

@MετάEd it sounds like you've played the game from the video

=)

@TemporaryNickName ah, no.

TemporaryNickName

btw, Korean government has started to issuing regulations that can slowly destroy video game industries. They believe video games have bad influence on young people because they easily get addicted to them

and some developers make illegal gambling games as well

But I think video games really push the technology and huge inspiration for coming up with better displays (TV and etc) and new graphics technologies

Mechanical snail

5:58 AM

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@TemporaryNickName Which government?

Mechanical snail

@MετάEd I doubt it's the Democratic People's one. Great General Jong-un comes from a family of computer experts, so he probably loves video games.

TemporaryNickName

north Koreans can't play games

Mechanical snail

@Robusto Pitch is an excellent lubricant for scientific progress.

@Mechanicalsnail It's great for filling your boots.

6:43 AM

@Mechanicalsnail Ding!

You want another map?

Mechanical snail

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@Mechanicalsnail Oh!

Is that...Erebor?

Angband?

What do I see?

Mechanical snail

@Cerberus imgur.com/r/lotr/LqFv5

Ah!

My first guess was right. phew

There aren't enough places on that map to give one to you.

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