English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

02:57

@JSBangs: Are you aware of the correct spelling Tolkien, not Tolkein? I need to look it up about every month as well, by the way... weird name.

RegDwight

10:43

2 days ago, by RegDwight

This is another question that comes up all the time:

0

Q: 'Had' or 'has' to describe a past condition which is still present?

Scenario: My friend John has a personality disorder, intensely paranoid for example. Can I say: There were three events last year that told me John had a problem. or can I say: There were threee events last year that told me John has a problem.

(Click on that 2 days ago link, don't want to waste space inlining them all here yet again).

Feb 8 at 12:23, by RegDwight

"The surname Tolkien is said to come from the German word tollkühn ('foolhardy'). German writers have suggested that in reality the name is more likely to derive from the village Tolkynen in Rastenburg in East Prussia (after WWII Tołkiny, Poland)."

Robusto

11:48

What up, dawgz ...

@RegDwight — But people like the symmetry of the explanation involving the oxymoron. Who are you to try to confuse us with fact, Commie propagandist!

@Martha: Regarding our discussion of finding trollish sabotage in our code, do you ever work through trying to find a reclusive bug and discover a piece of code that makes you wonder how it ever worked at all? I have.

But then I've also had this strange experience: the Web has robbed me of my memory and made me lazy. Instead of trying to remember the fine points of an API method call, say, I will simply Google it and read about the arguments and their data types, etc. But twice lately my Googling has pointed me to my own accepted answer to a StackOverflow question, which I didn't recognize until I saw my gravatar at the bottom. Scary.

Billare

12:14

Should not accepting an answer increase the delay rate?

Of which a question-asker can ask a question?

Same thing with question/ask ratio, above a certain (egregious) threshold?

Robusto

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Billare

@Robusto Posters who don't accept answers; should there be an algorithm that delays the amount of time you can ask another question based on that acceptance rate?

Or posters who ask unmotivated questions without answering any, should there be a delay rate as well?

There is a slight one based on rep at the beginning, remember.

Under 200 rep you can't ask one question more than every 20 minutes.

Robusto

Well, I don't know. That's a question for MSO.

Billare

What do you think of the idea?

Robusto

If someone is going to be a tight-ass they're going to be a tight-ass. For example, I upvote every answer to one of my questions that has a useful response, but some people don't.

Some posters even mock you for making the effort.

Billare

12:20

@Robusto Agreed.

I mean, agreed that you can't change tight-ass habits.

But you can move away from them so to speak.

Too much tolerance of ArthurRex's and the nicolas character will drive people from answering perfectly good questions.

Some people are here to answer questions, but alot of them are here to help people, emphasis on the people.

Robusto

And sometimes people just mock you anyway.

2

A: Is the "wit" in "to wit" the root of any other English words?

The NOAD reports that witan (another term for witenagemot) derives from the Old English plural of wita (wise man). In that case, you can say there is another word that is related to the Old English wit.

Billare

Oh come on, I wasn't mocking you.

I upvoted the comment.

I just know you like rep even more than I do.

Robusto

At the time I saw that you just made the comment and I had 0 upvotes for that answer. Plus the accepted answer which came an hour later simply cribbed my comment. Just sayin' ...

Billare

I may have been comment-locked.

Robusto

Gotta go. Later.

Billare

12:31

It happens to me very often.

@Robusto It's pretty unsporting of you to say that Alain just "cribbed your answer." He included information on the dual meanings of wit- and their indistinguishability at the time of the PIE, as well as gave two other words that used "wit" as a prefix. AND he included witan. So what?

Cerberus

Morning.

Billare

12:49

Hey.

@Cerberus What do you think of the delay idea?

Cerberus

Wat idea? I think I missed that?

Billare

Posters who don't accept answers; should there be an algorithm that delays the amount of time you can ask another question based on that acceptance rate?
Or posters who ask unmotivated questions without answering any, should there be a delay rate as well?
There is a slight one based on rep at the beginning, remember.
Under 200 rep you can't ask one question more than every 20 minutes.

Cerberus

Hm...

That might work.

I'm not sure; I am neither strongly against it nor for it.

Billare

Think I should bring it to Meta?

You don't find ArthurRex or nicolas annoyinag?

I don't like to feel like someone is playing the community like a puppet.

F'x

@Billare they do annoy me

Cerberus

12:55

Oh. Well, I don't know. They do not affect my emotional state. But I suppose they aren't assets to this website.

(Was trying to sound like Data.)

Billare

Heh.

Cerberus

Sure ask it on Meta.

Billare

@F'x What do you think of a delay rate idea?

F'x

@Billare repeated offender can be pointed out in comments

I'm not sure how useful it is

Cerberus

Then again, I think there should be a pop-up message that explains clearly why they are delayed; but, knowing that, they can just accept a few random answers and go ahead.

Billare

12:59

I think it sends a message, "if you don't feel the answers were given to were acceptable, why not concentrate on improving your question"

"Or bountying" or something or other.

@Cerberus Yes, that would work as well.

Cerberus

Well, my point is that it would work to have them accept more answers, but would it stop them from posting new dubious questions? I doubt it; and their accepting more answers isn't really what we're after, is it?

I mean, whether an answer is accepted or not doesn't really matter that much for this website...

Billare

@Cerberus I agree actually, I should have included the ratio thing.

@Cerberus As well.

@Cerberus By that I mean, over a certain threshold, Q/A ratio starts to have a delay rate.

Cerberus

But would they be told why they were delayed? If so, my point is still relevant.

Billare

@Cerberus That's the one that's really bugging me. You shouldn't have 50 questions versus 5 answered. Of course I agree with telling them.

Cerberus

Perhaps we should consider why that is bad.

I mean, it may be a symptom of a wrong attitude, but the symptom itself isn't very harmful? Or is it?

Billare

13:05

Blah, edited wrong question.

ArthurRex is downvoting to -9 on one of his poor questions.

He has an epithet.

Is that really necessary?

►

Cerberus

Haha what the...

I am just saying that I don't think fighting the symptoms will have any affect on the problem itself.

Billare

Amusing find on the Android error page.

Cerberus

Yeah pretty amusing.

But even so I am not against your delay.

Billare

When trolls don't find people to force to listen to them, they go away.

Cerberus

True.

But we listen.

Billare

13:09

Right; there are alot of mechanisms available to let errant users ask a question even when their first attempt is lacking.

But this is more than just "errant." We had vgv8; we have ArthurRex now, and nicolas, a couple of more could really cut down on the morale of the site.

Cerberus

Yeah I just don't see a structural way of solving this problem. The computer can't read questions and judge them, which is what we'd like.

Billare

Right. But it can disambiguate, I think, between egregious cases and not. A la the downvoting algorithm.

(Actually, I wonder if that algorithm is not just a myth? Like a mystical potluck o'er the rainbow? Something the devs say so we can believe it's true and not freak out when someone starts systematically downvoting us?)

Cerberus

Huh what is this algorithm then?

Billare

If it senses two users are in a downvoting war...

For example if you suspect user A for downvoting you and then you downvote him and then downvotes you etcetera...

It will correct that, apparently, at the end of the day.

Cerberus

Oh, right.

I've heard of that.

Billare

13:15

It can't do anything about "stealth downvotes" and "uncharitably not upvoting a user you dislike's answers", but it can do somethign about the egregious cases,.

Cerberus

It might be a myth, but so far I am inclined to believe it; not based on any evidence, but because it would be beneficial to the site, and because it seems doable.

Billare

Yeah, it certainly seems implementable, but then again, it's often a canned response to downvoting questions given by the mods. Combined with that meta joke about how they often say "six to eight weeks" to placate users over functionalities they haven't implemented yet, you can see my suspicions.

Suspicions is too strong a word.

But whatever.

Cerberus

It might be a myth.

Nothing we can do about it but hope...

Billare

4

Q: What are the principles that make certain lists sound euphonious?

Has this ever happened to you: You write a question, include a list or two in the discussion, and then come back to edit that list because the order doesn't sound "right"? Off the top of my head, I can remember it happening to me twice here on English L&U: I changed God, man, and nature to r...

grammar style

Bountied. Take a shot.

Cerberus

Yeah I have pondered it already.

Some time ago.

But I'm afraid I only have fragments of could-be answers.

Billare

13:22

Ah. Nothing doing, eh? Too bad.

Anyway, gtg.

Nice chatting wit ya.

Cerberus

It is probably mostly a matter of tradition and ingrained usage.

Ok adios!

Cerberus

13:59

@JSBangs: I liked your story Words.

RegDwight

17:38

Sigh. Another two-part question where one part is a clear dupe.

2

Q: "that" and "the" should be used in these situations?

I'm always uncertain whether or not I should use "the" and "that" in the following cases: There is no guarantee (that) measurement values are the cause of . . . and Which will lead to (the) correct evaluation of the measure . . . Yes or no?

usage grammar

8

Q: Use of "that" in a sentence

He will understand that I was not joking. He will understand I was not joking. Which of the sentences is correct? Are there any specific rules about the use of "that" in the sentences I reported as example?

grammar conjunctions

4

Q: When is "that" superfluous?

What are some of the rules surrounding the word "that" and its inclusion or omission in a sentence? For example, "My boss mentioned that you needed help," vs. "My boss mentioned you needed help." Is either form more correct? Sorry if this seems rudimentary, but I've always felt a little self-con...

grammar

4

Q: When can you leave off 'that' in a sentence?

Some times I find myself leaving out the 'that' that binds two parts of a sentence together, because it reads 'smoother'. Here's an example: I'm at that point towards the end of a book, where you suddenly realize you're reading part two of a trilogy and too much of the plot is left for a sati...

grammar

Cerberus

Yikes yeah I noticed that one.

RegDwight

I have a feeling I must do some merging...

Cerberus

Is there a procedure for requesting an asker to split his question into two?

RegDwight

@Cerberus No. You can comment to that extent, that's all.

I was thinking of doing just that.

Cerberus

I see.

Perhaps we could find a "the" question that overlaps the other part...

RegDwight

17:43

BTW, I think I will start by merging this answer of yours into this question. Any objections?

@Cerberus I don't think there is a the question of that kind.

Cerberus

No objections at all!

RegDwight

Good. Brb merging.

Cerberus

Good luck...

I sometimes feel I should be cleaning out various duplicates all around the site... but it is such tedious work.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Nah, it can actually be quite fun. Everything can be fun if you don't overdo it.

Merging a duplicate here and there is kewl, not to mention cuil. But I wouldn't want to spend a whole day or just a few hours in a row merging stuff.

Cerberus

Really? What I especially do not like is going through 10+ pages of questions that match search criteria; reading all answers, trying to think of reasons why they should not be completely the same, and deciding whether the difference is enough; and while doing all this I need to have ten tabs open to read back and forth. And often a newer question will have an answer that is better than most of the answers in older questions. What then? I can never make up my mind.

RegDwight

17:50

@Cerberus Well, making up one's mind can be tough. Hunting down dupes can suck huge balls. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the actual merging after you have hunted it down and made up your mind. That can be quite satisfying, I tellya.

At least to me.

I can totally imagine that there are people who couldn't care less.

Cerberus

Yes, that I can imagine!

No, I do care. The reward is just not high enough, as far as I'm concerned, without depending on a sense of obligation for a significant part.

RegDwight

Well, that's why I get the big bucks and the ~~big~~ chicks.

Cerberus

What also stinks is that you will never get them all, and new ones will keep turning up.

RegDwight

You mean chicks? Yeah, that sucks.

Cerberus

Eh... I am having a non-native moment here.

RegDwight

17:54

Mar 22 at 19:15, by RegDwight

Joke

A joke is a question, short story, or depiction of a situation made with the intent of being humorous. To achieve this end, jokes may employ irony, sarcasm, word play and other devices. Jokes may have a punchline that will end the sentence to make it humorous. A practical joke or prank differs from a spoken one in that the major component of the humour is physical rather than verbal (for example placing salt in the sugar bowl). Purpose Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter; when this does not happen the joke is...

Cerberus

Not getting the chicks, and probably not getting the bucks either, as they don't make enough sense.

No way, a Joke??

The only way your joke would make any sense would be if I interpreted it thus. I know, this is killing. You are a moderator, therefore you are obliged to do the work, but, as it is your job, you also get paid, and your position plus money get you girls. Which are both also farm animals. Then again, I assume you are not getting paid. So that was supposed to be a joke too.

Considering all this I still doubt whether I got your joke, as it doesn't sound like a real joke. Well, whatever it was, I'm sure I have killed it.

tl;dr

RegDwight

I have no idea what you're talking about. really. My jokes are never that sophisticated. My jokes are never sophisticated, period. If that's still too long: my jokes aren't.

Cerberus

Heh.

RegDwight

Anyhow, the key to finding dupes is not googling for "this that" or "is are".

The key is remembering some other keywords.

Cerberus

Oh?

RegDwight

18:03

I don't google for "him he" or "them they". I google for "Kosmonaut nohat photo".

Cerberus

Eh what? Why?

I suppose you could Google for users if you remember who answered the question? But photo?

I think my mind is a bit blurred. Exercise dumbs the mind.

RegDwight

Because I have no idea if that question actually discussed him vs he, them vs they, whom vs who, or accusative vs nominative. But what I do remember is that nohat and Kosmonaut had a side discussion about labelling photos.

Cerberus

Ah ok, if you remember stuff about the question, then yes.

I usually don't.

I suppose it is a bit easier for you because you've been on here longer. You probably also have better memory.

Well, it is still hard.

RegDwight

Well you can only look for something you have seen before if you actually have seen it before.

Cerberus

Yeah, well, I am usually reduced to trying to find questions I have never seen before, based on the assumption that a topic is so common that there must have been similar questions in the past, which is usually true.

RegDwight

18:09

@Cerberus Well, that noble pursuit will most certainly result in going through 10+ pages of Google results, often to no avail.

Cerberus

It will, but I usually find questions when I try. I am talking about very common topics, like using hyphens and the possessive 's.

The problem is this. Suppose I see a question that reminds me of an earlier question I remember. Should I simply mark it as a duplicate of that? Or should I search on for even older questions? With very frequent topics, I feel that I should.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Well then, here's a rule of thumb for your convenience. Mark as duplicate first, search for older questions later.

I mean, if you are sure that X is a dupe of Y, you should say so right away. Whether or not they are both dupes of Z is a completely different issue.

Cerberus

19:33

@Reg: Right! That's what I will do then. Better something than nothing. But should I vote to close?

Oh I must be off... bye!

RegDwight

CU.

RegDwight

22:49

@Cerberus But to answer your question: if you think that it is an obvious dupe and should be closed as such, then vote to close. I know from your previous comments that you sometimes fear it might be some kind of rocket science, but it really isn't.

You don't need to stop and think, oh, but how would X vote, what would Y do, how would Z comment? X, Y, and Z will voice their opinions themselves. You don't vote on their behalf. It's your vote, so you get to cast it as you see fit.

kiamlaluno

23:48

The worst worst is when somebody asks you to correct some code, you ask who wrote such crappy code, and you discover it was code you wrote 2 years ago.

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