English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

alphabet

00:56

@Robusto Of course. I have a feeling that, just maybe, the current administration may be planning somewhat less than ideal policies regarding the gays.

We'll see what level of batshit he comes up with.

Michael Rybkin

02:53

youtube.com/shorts/wb3WVvJ5bLk - dropping the 5 - what does that mean?

Cerberus

03:37

@MichaelRybkin What are you watching, man...

I have no idea what that means, some slang.

Cerberus

03:51

Connections
Puzzle #600
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I honestly didn't know most of purple.

The rest was easy.

Hurrah, number 600!

alphabet

05:26

@MichaelRybkin Honestly, that might be a valid ELU (or at least ELL) question, since I have no fckn clue and can't even find a definition online.

Word of the day: Merkel diamond. From German Merkel-Raute, the name of a gesture associated with Angela Merkel.

Other word (term?) of the day: socialist fraternal kiss. "The socialist fraternal kiss was a special form of greeting between socialist state officials. The act demonstrated the special relationship that exists between Communist countries, consisting of an embrace, along with a series of three kisses on alternate cheeks. In rare cases, when the two statesmen considered themselves on exceptionally good terms, the kisses were given on the mouth rather than on the cheeks."

Wut.

Michael Rybkin

05:51

@Cerberus Thank you very much. That's good enough for me as an answer. If you don't know what that means as a native speaker with a level of education above average (probably well above average), then I guess I don't have to be bothered with that as well. As for what I'm watching. That was just a random video that popped up upon loading the main YoutTube page. The phrase piqued my interested and decided to watch it.

Cerberus

@MichaelRybkin Well, I am a not a native speaker. But education won't teach someone what this means: it seems like street slang.

Michael Rybkin

@alphabet Thank you. Yeah, I'll write it down in my notes. Maybe later I'll consider asking this question on the stack exchange.

@Cerberus What is your mother tongue if it's not a secret?

Cerberus

Dutch.

Michael Rybkin

@Cerberus That's great. I have been somewhat interested in the country of South Africa for a while which eventually led me to start picking up some Afrikaans (very similar to Dutch), but unfortunately had to postpone my studies because of lack of time (I just got too many things to do).

SmokeDetector

06:35

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title, bad phone number in body, potentially bad keyword in body, potentially bad keyword in title (200): How do I get a refund from CityMall?‭ by Mona Kumari‭ on english.SE

Xanne

Connections
Puzzle #600
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Xanne

06:45

Strands #334
“Baby talk”
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Wordle 1,322 5/6

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tchrist

11:34

> 1 Ideology produces disagreement, but stupidity produces befuddlement.
2 Stupidity often inheres in organizations, not individuals.
3 People who behave stupidly are more dangerous than people who behave maliciously.
4 People who behave stupidly are unaware of the stupidity of their actions.
5 Stupidity is nearly impossible to oppose.
6 The opposite of stupidity is not intelligence, it’s rationality.

2

GratefulDisciple

12:29

Connections
Puzzle #600
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@tchrist Completely agree, but rationality is not merely being logical and starting from Enlightenment style first principles, whole-spectrum-common-sense non-material intuition should not be excluded from "rationality".

tchrist

@GratefulDisciple So seven-step Euclidean proofs are optional? :)

GratefulDisciple

@tchrist Do you mean the 7 axioms? No, of course not. If they reflect Reality, then how it can be optional; that would violate "common sense". I'm merely pointing out that Enlightenment era first principles exclude the total experience of a human being, resulting in Kant not being able to claim that human being can KNOW some truths in metaphysics. Thomistic rationality is more confident than him as to human capacity to know those truths.

@alphabet That's an excellent evidence and is admissible (to me) as evidence of "petty tyranny", but which I would rather label as 1) human refusal to be truthful to the Reality of injustice / oppression and 2) the corruption / lack-of-integrity of CCP to adjust policy in light of the data, rather than wholesale dismissal of their political philosophy, assuming that they're really indeed serious in integrating it with moderate capitalism, rule of law, and regulated increase in freedom.

@M.A.R. So yes, people in government (and universities that help them do this) should continually refine the political theory which describes the current state of the nation and economy, serving as a foundation to be proposed to the rulers who then take into account truthful data on the ground to implement that theory.

Then the political scientist reviews the data and modify the theory. That is what should be done in both China and the West, and let the best explanatory theory and the best policy wins.

@Mitch I'm prepared for my "apology" when I am arrested.

@Mitch I didn't say either one. By the way, as a matter of integrity (just so I tune my perception to the Reality of Taylor Swift), I made the point to listen to 3 of her most famous songs in 3 settings: All too well (studio), Long Live (live on stage) (score here),

and Love Story (music video) (score here).

alphabet

13:08

@GratefulDisciple I wouldn't make that assumption. Before you say they care about the rule of law, look up what happened to Chen Guangcheng.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet They only have rule of law on paper, I agree. So watchdogs should hold them accountable that they practice what they preach.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple Hard to do when any watchdogs get, say, their houses permanently surrounded by crowds of government agents who subject them to de facto permanent house arrest.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet No denying that, of course.

alphabet

Best not to assume that they mean what they say about their goals and ideology, and look at what they actually do instead.

Jan 27 at 17:02, by alphabet

> A tyrannical government is not just, because it is directed, not to the common good, but to the private good of the ruler, as the Philosopher states (Polit. iii, 5; Ethic. viii, 10).

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Yup, and that's what Western political scientist who has experience on the ground can do, maybe someone like Kerry Brown.

alphabet

13:16

@GratefulDisciple Generally, if a historian can enter China without getting arrested, it's because they aren't really challenging the CCP's narrative.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Sure, self-censorship is a big problem, happening in Singapore, even. I value the author of the article you linked, as a reporter being thrown out.

@Mitch As regards the first, of course Taylor Swift (from hence TS) is gifted, but (from the little that I see myself) her gift lies more in composing melody, lyrics and the performative aspect (dance included) and integrate those with her persona into someone that her core audience can relate to from their own experience, making her to be their spokesperson. So I think her main gift is to be a Musical Poet.

By "greatness" I mean the ability to produce a beautiful piece of sufficient complexity (which includes not just the notes but the required technique demanded by the performer to execute it, cf it is hard to perform Mozart Sonata Facile well) to the level that is hard to rival. Comparing the scores of her music to Bach should be straightforward in terms of complexity of harmony and arrangement, making her to be a much lesser of a composer.

So I don't mean that disparagingly, she is a Great Musical Poet, but I cannot call her a Great Composer like those in Western canon. We appreciate Bach not because of his dancing (I cannot imagine Bach dancing to his music :-) ), or his way of performing his own pieces, or his choosing the lyrics, but inherent in his musical composition alone.

tchrist

13:43

The first word in the name of the peer-reviewed open-access mega-journal published by the Public Library of Science, PLOS One, is best represented phonemically as:

1 /pləz/ as in has (unstressed weak form only)
2 /pləs/ as in assign (unstressed first syllable only)
3 /plʌz/ as in buzz
4 /plʌs/ as in rust
5 /plʊz/ as in no existing English word
6 /plʊs/ as in wuss, puss
7 /plɔz/ as in gauze, paws, claws, cause
8 /plɔs/ as in lost, flossed
9 /ploz/ as in nose, doze
10 /plos/ as in toast, host

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Secondly, of course I don't mean her followers are "mentally incapacitated" either, nor am I a snob like Frasier who look down on his dad's musical taste. When I was in college, I really like listening to Whitney Houston's All at Once (score here) which by that time was no longer new but still famous.

I'm not her fan, but I listened to it like a TS fan listens to TS song.I listened to it again just now and still enjoy the music, though when I was in college the "heartbroken" lyrics speaks like poetry of my life's real situation back then.

I like it better than the 3 TS songs I listened to because 1) the arrangement, 2) chord progression, 3) the instrumental techniques, and 4) Whitney's vocal technique used are better, though still less than Bach. I'm not saying that one should understand music theory to enjoy music in a utilitarian way; it's just to appreciate a great music, understanding is necessary to enjoy it aesthetically.

Similarly, I believe I would appreciate America more when I study comparative political theory and its connection with philosophy of human nature, of justice, of law, of happiness, and how they are implemented in world history. But to enjoy life as an American, I just need to live in the society, engaging with my fellow citizens and doing my responsibility (pay taxes, obey the rules, vote in election, volunteer, etc.)

Robusto

14:40

#WhenTaken #339 (31.01.2025)

I scored 821/1000🏅

1️⃣📍308 km - 🗓️11 yrs - 🥈172/200
2️⃣📍660 m - 🗓️7 yrs - 🥇191/200
3️⃣📍5.4K km - 🗓️5 yrs - 🥉113/200
4️⃣📍68.7 km - 🗓️8 yrs - 🥇186/200
5️⃣📍583 km - 🗓️13 yrs - 🥈159/200

https://whentaken.com

@jlliagre Spoiler

Wordle 1,322 4/6

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Robusto

15:19

Connections
Puzzle #600
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Daily Octordle #1103
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Score: 52

Daily Sequence Octordle #1103
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Score: 81
From the sublime to the ridiculous.

Daily Extreme Octordle #1103
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Score: 59

@tchrist Yup. Another way to state #5: You can't fix stupid.

Strands #334
“Baby talk”
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jlliagre

16:11

#WhenTaken #339 (31.01.2025)

I scored 889/1000🏆

1️⃣📍328 km - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇188/200
2️⃣📍12.0 km - 🗓️13 yrs - 🥇175/200
3️⃣📍133 m - 🗓️9 yrs - 🥇187/200
4️⃣📍1.2 km - 🗓️18 yrs - 🥈161/200
5️⃣📍697 km - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇178/200

https://whentaken.com

@Robusto They must have fixed it.

Wordle 1,322 4/6

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CowperKettle

16:40

I was looking for tomato paste online, and came across Iranian tomato paste, along with a non-translated advert in Farsi

ozon.ru/product/…

Delivery in 3 days, almost to my doorstep, to an issue point just across the street

@GratefulDisciple I loved listening to Houston back in 1993-1994

I did not understand the lyrics quite well, and I had no list of song names, only a cassette, so I wrote down this song as All It Wants on the cassete's insert

My cassettes were full of ultra-weird song names, in my interpretation.

GratefulDisciple

17:10

@CowperKettle Most of her songs are too "dancy" for me, I only like 4 of her slow songs in the only CD of her that I bought. The other 3 I like are Saving All My Love For You, Hold Me, and Greatest Love of All (that I noticed a Christian theological issue when I listened to it again yesterday). I never saw the music video version (some are in that playlist).

@CowperKettle Cassette tapes sound quaint, but it beats CD in a car or a bus (no worries about skipping, no worries about scratching), but of course MP3 player (and later, smartphones) beat them both.

jlliagre

17:26

Daily Octordle #1103
9️⃣🔟
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Score: 76

Daily Sequence Octordle #1103
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Score: 73

jlliagre

17:46

Daily Extreme Octordle #1103
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Score: 60

Cerberus

@MichaelRybkin Yes, that is a fun language.

Mitch

18:17

@GratefulDisciple I don't know if I've passed or failed that test, but I can honestly say I've never heard of any of those songs.

GratefulDisciple

18:44

@Mitch If there are TS songs that you think I should listen/watch to give TS a fair hearing, feel free to suggest several. I use it as a kind of barometer on Swifties, esp. for Millennials and Gen Z.

BTW, to my surprise (maybe I shouldn't be), I just noticed how the musical style and the "confessional lyrics" (see Wikipedia) are very similar to CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) and how they are consumed in many mega churches I have come across, so I have a feeling that the listener's style of engagement is similar as well, which is very different than how one consume classical music.

@alphabet I think it's more a reflection on the audience's preferences over time. TS popularity will pass. The question is: 100 years from now, which ones would be revived and why? Is it musical style, performance style, lyrical relatability, or maybe even the dance?

For example, one of Bach's greatest work (St. Matthew Passion) was forgotten until Mendelssohn sparked a revival in 1829, and I think it's due to its inherent beauty and greatness of composition.

Mitch

20:27

@GratefulDisciple I am just messing around. I really don't know much about Taylor Swift or her songs beyond...

All the Lonely Starbucks Lovers

See? It's so on topic it hurts.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch I have a feeling you did; I'm still adjusting to your style of jokes :-) . At any rate, it prompted an occasion to share my opinion on a topic dear to me (classical music).

Mitch

This answer is so word-nerdy it hurts! :) — John Y May 11, 2011 at 5:17

WHile relevant, it is shameless self promotion

@GratefulDisciple And likewise a chance for me to share my opinion on a topic dear to me (being ridiculous).

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch :-) I definitely hear "got the lonely Starbucks lovers" in the Chorus but hear what the lyrics say in the Pre-chorus. Either 1) that's what TS wanted to say (typo on the lyric), or 2) TS was thirsty and was thinking of Starbucks while recording the song, or 3) it's an Easter egg for a fan to go crazy about trying to solve the puzzle, or 4) it's a self-wrought torment on you and me.

@Mitch Great. We're on the same page and got our own satisfaction.

Mitch

For a few years, I used to go treat myself for a store bought coffee for Friday breakfast and part of that very informal ritual was turning on the radio in the car, on the way to Starbucks, and listening to the pop radio station, which, at the time, seemed to be playing all and only Taylor Swift, namely the song just alluded to in that Language Log post.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch She's that ubiquitous eh, I don't even turn on the radio while driving and I'm oblivious of what the world is listening. Sometimes I listen to podcast playing on my phone relayed to the car speakers through Bluetooth, or recordings of a Thomistic Institute lectures.

Mitch

20:40

@GratefulDisciple for more pop culture fun, I like to look up the actual lyrics to songs and am usually very surprised at what they're actually saying. As usual.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Yeah, shows how I'm so out of touch with Gen Z / Millennials. That Wiki article on TS musical style and lyrics help me to be objective on evaluating her though.

BTW, what type of music do you listen to. Promise, I'm not going to be judgmental.

Mitch

@GratefulDisciple It's a short drive so fumbling with phones and earbuds and starting up the right podcast is overkill for me. I save podcasts for longer times when I can listen but also not worry about something else.

Books on tape for long drives.

@GratefulDisciple Oh I think you should be judgmental.

I'm pretty sure you would judge my answer because...

I don't really listen to much music.

Only in the car while driving which is not that often.

And I pretty much cycle through all the stations I sort of like (plus a few more) until l get one I like (or the one out of about 10 that is not playing an ad).

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Since I became aware of different postures of listening to music about a decade ago, I have become a lot more tolerant and sympathetic rather than "condescendingly compassionate" or outright judgmental. Honest.

@Mitch Me neither. And yes, I sometimes got curious and cycle through all the stations too, concluding that I don't like any of them. Not even the classical station if they play too much modern music. Apart from classical, I actually like old country music the best along with jazz and big band.

Mitch

But of those stations which I think I'll like are:
3 70's-80's hits (I'm in the Boston area so what they play is mostly Aerosmith, AC/DC, and Queen, all of which I'll switch to another station because I don't care for those in particular)
2 R&B stations (again 70s-80s)
1 Reggaeton station (I can guarantee that 1) I'll have never heard the song before, 2) the car will feel like a party has started)
1 country station (which seems to play, every time I turn to it, Fast Car by Tracy Chapman or the remake guy)

GratefulDisciple

I like Anne Murray's songs and a few singles from various groups / singers from the 70s and 80s. But I'm not a fan of anyone.

Mitch

20:51

Saying that out loud I realize that's not the music I like, it's just the music that's available on FM radio that I don't mind listening to.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch I see. Maybe it's safe to say you're not really into music, like I'm not into sports but can enjoy if it's happening to play TV.

Mitch

@GratefulDisciple When I intentionally listen to music I like (ie when I've finished all the podcasts for the week), I have a couple stations on Pandora (you 'seed' your station with a couple of artists and it plays things 'nearby').

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch I'll try to listen to those genres; I feel I need to be more eclectic.

Mitch

And those stations are ... late 70's- early eighties British alternative music, 80s-90s hip-hop and 2010s flamenco

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch It's nice to be surprised (Pandora) rather than selecting them yourself.

Mitch

20:56

@GratefulDisciple don't take my list as suggestions.

GratefulDisciple

OK, nice talking to you. Gotta go back to work. Hope you have a good weekend.

Mitch

Some one said something like 'Isn't it funny how the best music every produced by humankind just happened to be made during a handful of years when I ws a teenager?'

@GratefulDisciple It's kinda nice, very few repeats, but their algorithm somehow picks those songs that yeah I kinda like that.

@GratefulDisciple Yeah that's safe to say. I didn't have any real musical education (beyond learning notation, and singing in chorus in high school, no instruments). I was really into making a (small) record collection, but tired of that pretty soon in college.

@GratefulDisciple 👍🏽

GratefulDisciple

21:26

@Mitch Just popped in to say that I listen to TS "Blank Space" again, but this time I only hear "ex lovers". But watching the video made me scared of any girlfriend who claims that she likes that song, I would run away because the music video is positively violent! Don't want to be that guy in the video. No wonder there's a long list of "ex lovers". Thankfully I'm married now. :-) And no, definitely don't want my wife to listen to the song; don't want to give her any ideas.

Robusto

21:52

@jlliagre That was fast. Maybe they'd gotten a lot of flak over that. Basically Spoiler

jlliagre

22:05

@Robusto Spoiler

Robusto

@jlliagre :-D

MetaEd

22:27

Wordle 1,322 2/6

🟨⬛🟨🟩⬛
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Strands #334
“Baby talk”
🟡🔵🔵🔵
🔵🔵🔵🔵
🔵

Connections
Puzzle #600
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦

alphabet

23:04

@GratefulDisciple If her lyrics are to be taken seriously, Taylor Swift is not someone you want as a "lover."

Cerberus

23:31

Connections
Puzzle #601
🟨🟨🟨🟨
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This one was easy, even purple.

GratefulDisciple

23:58

@alphabet The lyrics reminds me of Basic Instinct (1992) where the detective acted by Michael Douglas took a gamble due to his attraction to the woman acted by Sharon Stone and the audience is left to guess even at the end of the movie whether "it's gonna be forever or it's gonna go down in flames." So no, definitely not someone guys should even want his name written on the "blank space" no matter how alluring.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…