@Mitch Would you count "common sense" in the same category of the experience of gravity? If so then Aristotle deserves to be called a "scientist" of human nature since his observations of human nature is commonsensical.

@M.A.R. I expect Wikipedia to be totally accurate when reporting the track listing of songs on ABBA's Greatest Hits Album (their first compilation)

@Robusto already done

@Mitch Seriously? Not the AI that I've come in contact with.

@Mitch I trust the metric afforded by statistics. My contention lies in the large number of variables that are "out of scope" and cannot be measured by statistics. Childhood trauma, for example, is very specific and the way a specific trauma informs variables cannot be known unless there is a very thorough description, but that's what psychoanalyst do. To paper over the specifics (thorough description) of events like that is what makes me uneasy about psychological research as "science".

@Robusto well the breakthrough is over, and once more it's a question of scale and engineering. Once it's noticeably different than what we have now it will probably be called something else

@GratefulDisciple I'm not sure where this is going. I haven't read Aristotle in for quite a while and don't remember that. I find 'commonnsense' to be under defined and even if defined kind of hard to compare to a phenomenon like gravity.

I wouldn't call Aristotle a scientist

@Mitch I would love to show Aristotle's use of commonsense in studying human nature, but that would need to be tabled for future discussion.

@M.A.R. Same as ^^^^ (showing Aristotle to be at least a "liberal arts scientist")

@Robusto seriously. First or second glance. Sure gullibility helps but LLMs and diffusion give pretty good results.

@M.A.R. You mean other than "AI"?

If you're -looking- for problems sure you can ses them.

@Mitch About Aristotle I only know if you use the word "oligarchy" people will think you are hip and smart.

@GratefulDisciple Sorry, but ... hahahahaha ... "liberal arts scientist" ... that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. ;-)

@Robusto yeah. The paradigm has shifted, and will eventually shift once again.

@M.A.R. he wrote about sciency things and wasn't always wrong.

@Mitch I'm a Boyle fan. If you don't experiment you're not a scientist.

@M.A.R. did he use that word? If so, very hip. Very smart.

To be fair probably two dozen philosophers before Boyle said that

But anyway, A-totes was an observational scientist.

@alphabet I believe what we don't know is why certain applications of Tylenol seem to be efficacious in some medical conditions; this is where the ambiguity is. Like how they use aspirin in situations that they don't know exactly why it works. But what Tylenol / aspirin DOES to the human body (at the chemistry level) we know very well. I hope I got the ballpark right, @M.A.R. is my fact checker :-).

@M.A.R. sure, just observation is... Well it's a first step in science and there's a place for it but it is not so reliable. I think of it as hypothesis generation, not hypothesis testing.

@Mitch I dunno, didn't they sit under some tree's shade and snort something and think about life and stuff? What's the difference between an observational scientist and everyone else?

@M.A.R. France is bacon?

@Mitch I like that! I wonder whether bacon was his favorite food.

@GratefulDisciple I believe its entire mechanism of action is unknown, though there's been some progress on that recently.

@Mitch I bloody knew you were gonna say that

But a lot of Arabic and Persian scientists, real ones, did.

Some Greeks and Romans did too probably. Though nothing rings a bell right now.

I think anyone who was actually getting their hands dirty was complaining that you should get your hands dirty and not gaze at your navel

@GratefulDisciple actually, there's still some mystery around how Tylenol works

@M.A.R. His works on biology are certainly scientific in nature. Not exactly rigorous but based on empirical research (e.g. dissections). He does have a habit of repeating observations made by others uncritically, though (see: "women have fewer teeth").

@Robusto I deliberately put the two together, but reserves the opportunity to show you it's not as outrageous as you think, especially after you restore your trust in Aristotle & Aquinas in their theories of human nature. Of course their physics and biology and astronomy is out of the window.

@M.A.R. Ibn Sina? I have no puns for that.

@alphabet I mean sure if he did that then he was one. But a very opinionated one. I think it's the salty air.

@M.A.R. the science is still out on how blankets work.

@Mitch I have a nagging suspicion he was just the most famous guy around and other lesser known people have done more important work

@M.A.R. Opinionated in what respect? He does have a quite odd theoretical framework, of course, compared to that of modern science.

@alphabet Really? For a commonplace medicine like acetaminophen they still don't know the entire mechanism?

@Mitch on protecting against the monster under the bed? Easy, camouflage

@alphabet uh...just look at them.

@GratefulDisciple Yes. I believe we also don't know much about how most anesthetics work.

@GratefulDisciple yeah. Just that we have incredibly overwhelming evidence that it's safe all around unless you have a fragile liver

Of course, here's the question: before correcting Aristotle on the teeth thing, did you count a woman's teeth to make sure he was wrong? If not, you're just doing the same thing he did, repeating observations made by others without verification.

Inibition of COX3, leukopyrogen antagonism, these are all just fancy words,

@M.A.R. I thought you just look under the bed, see that there's none there, and then you go to bed at ease?

Unless he comes back.

shudders

Or is just trying to come out and you stare at each other and it gets awkward?

@alphabet What matters is whose observations you repeat, and of what kind.

@alphabet Yes, I heard something about we don't know exactly how anesthetics work. Which makes an anesthesiologist practice has some hint of "voodoo science".

@GratefulDisciple not really

@M.A.R. Heavy use of aspirin is also bad for kidney, right? That people with EKD shouldn't use it? Or is it another drug, I don't remember.

If so then all of medicine has a hint of voodoo.

@GratefulDisciple But aspirin has been replaced by paracetamol as a painkiller, hasn't it?

I mean some surgeons think they're God, but that's a different sort of thing

@GratefulDisciple just because we don't have a theory of everything doesn't mean quantum mechanics and general relativity are voodoo science. Merely that they don't satisfactorily cover all the observations we want them to cover

@Mitch I admit I'm being rather extreme on labeling anesthesiologist practice. OK, I take it back.

Whew.

Just about to go under

@Mitch What I mean is that anesthesiologist is known to be VERY dependent on their minute observation of the patient's level of consciousness, more so than blood pressure, heartbeat, etc. So they need to rely much on their subjectivity.

@GratefulDisciple not aspirin, NSAIDs (ibuprofen, diclofenac, celecoxib, naproxen etc.). Too much aspirin literally burns a whole in your stomach. I can even show where

@M.A.R. I was thinking of ibuprofen, sorry. And it's ESKD, not EKD.

@Mitch as a veteran undergoer, I recommend you show up to the operating table sleep-deprived. The anesthetic making you fall asleep is pure double distilled heaven.

@M.A.R. so aspirin is still used, acetaminophen is still used, ibuprofen is still used, but depends on the situation

@M.A.R. for real?

I mean I wasn't gonna have two cups of full caffeinated coffee before hand..

@Mitch yep

@M.A.R. Are good dreams included?

@M.A.R. so if you have a morning surgery, stay up all night beforehand?

@GratefulDisciple No dreams that I recall. Just pure bliss, as if everything is where it should be

I absolutely hated the pain from feeling the anaesthetic fluid stream into my vein.

@Mitch hey you wouldn't be able to sleep much anyway because of the stress. And asshole hospital cleaning staff who make noises at 4 a.m. sweeping the floors

@M.A.R. Okay. The last time I had general anesthesia was when I got my tonsil removed. Not looking forward to having to go under for any reason.

@Cerberus was it cold?

@M.A.R. That's fair. I need to find a better word for what I'm trying to convey.

Hmm I don't remember, exactly.

Just offensive and painful.

Not excruciating, but very...wrong it felt.

Well, it has been a most interesting discussion. But I gotta go. Talk to you guys again tomorrow.

That's what this room is for.

Typically, the induction of anesthesia is done using the IV route. Like midazolam. Maintenance is with gases. Depending on the type and length of the surgery, and your body composition, there could be a lot of variation to this

@GratefulDisciple have a nice day

Hmm.

@Cerberus something was probably wrong but you were in no position to object

You think so?

Isn't it normal for this to feel bad?

The idea is that if your body is not comfortable, anesthesia may even become a moot point. For example, if the gas irritates your lungs, your blood pressure will rise, you won't fall unconscious easily, and all sorts of things can go wrong when the uh, cutting starts

I don't think there was any gas.

At least not while I was awake.

@Cerberus how long was it

I don't remember, probably not very long. The doctor cut some strips off my nasal conchae.

@Cerberus sure. And if the setup takes too long, I find that oxygenation in healthy people gets really terrible. Gives you a bad headache

What setup?

Yeah, probably.

Both were pleasant for me

Really!

Used when I was under for half an hour or so during some endoscopy

When I woke up, I was nauseous.

@Cerberus I was sleep-deprived for that too

I am always sleep deprived haha.

I got the surgery because my breating-problems would wake me up a lot.

@Cerberus you were either unlucky or not appropriately pre-medicated

But the worst thing was the feeling of being out of breath constantly, until the narcosis fully wore off the following night. My fully closed nose combined with the narcosis made me feel like I couldn't fully breathe, had to consciously take every breath until it wore off at last.

@M.A.R. Pre-medicated, how?

I don't think there was any premedication?

But, when I came too and they asked how I felt, and I said nauseous, they give me something through the IV that helped.

@Cerberus with antiemetics of course. Probably one dose of Xanax to calm your nerves. There are other drugs for certain needs.

I will Google that...

Would those be given through IV without your noticing?

I think they put me to sleep quickly after inserting the IV, though not 100% sure.

@Cerberus well seems they administered it after

At any rate, it was nothing dramatic. It was OK.

It was probably metoclopramide

Only the breathing thing was really tough.

@Cerberus sure, we make surgeries sound scary. They're usually mundane.

@M.A.R. I believe it!

Unless they have to rip open your ribcage ;)

@M.A.R. Yeah, I mean, of course it depends on what surgery you have...

@M.A.R. You're right. I was thinking more of a situation where the patient needs to be conscious like in a C-section delivery. That's the situation I had in mind when I said subjective observation is extremely needed.

@M.A.R. Less fun.

@GratefulDisciple sure. We have "local anesthesia" and "general anesthesia".

By the way, a friend told me that antihistamine helped him when his sinuses hurt during a cold.

Would that make sense, if you're not allergic to anything?

@Cerberus of course. Histamine plays a lot of roles in the body. It's released in allergies, in inflamed wounds when you cut yourself with something, and as part of 'flu-like symptoms', which are the manifestations of your body's immune response to viral or bacterial infections or some drugs.

Really!

So then...why doesn't everyone who suffers from a cold take antihistamines?

I will pop a cetirizine now!

The most important thing to know about the common cold is that in adults, 90-something percent of colds is viral. Antibiotics wouldn't help. You just need to control the annoying symptoms until it goes away on its own. And the best treatments for sore throats and runny noses are antihistamines

@Cerberus they do. All the combination drugs for cold have an antihistamine, a decongestant, and often paracetamol.

Oh, yes, everybody with a gram of sense in his body knows that colds are normally a virus. I heard that in some countries doctors would prescribe antibiotics against a cold, so crazy.

@M.A.R. Wow!

Why did I not know this before?

Newer research seems to show that the decongestants are for show, but anyway they're pretty harmless at the usual doses

Why had I never heard it until today?

@M.A.R. Decongestant usually helps me substantially against the stuffy feeling. But today it is too bad.

Same for paracetamol.

Today's slot for learning something new was vacant

I did flush my nose with saline, which helped a little bit.

I will tell everyone about the antihistamines!

@Cerberus clarification: Oral decongestants are almost useless. Nasal decongestants work, but only for three days or so. Then they cause rebound congestion

@M.A.R. By the way, are these combination sprays? I praesume decongestant doesn't work by drinking it?

@M.A.R. Ohh.

I had never heard of oral decongestants.

And, yeah, I know nasals work less well if you keep using them and also the rebound effect.

And they also make my nose hurt a bit the day after.

@Cerberus 1st gen antihistamines cross the blood-brain barrier, and turns out many receptors in the brain are alike, so they do more than just block histamine's effects. Thus they also make you drowsy, and in high doses are hallucinogenic

Cetirizine is kinda generation 1.5. Doesn't make you as sleepy, but still crosses BBB a bit.

Hmm but that is probably not cetirizine, then?

Ah.

So is cetirizine a good choice against sinus/nasal pain?

Or should I buy a different antihistamine tomorrow.

2nd gen antihistamines don't cross BBB, so even if you took 30 of them all at once, no serious adverse reaction would happen.

My friend said he uses loratadine.

@Cerberus it has much less effect than if used locally

@M.A.R. Makes sense.

@Cerberus the efficacies of antihistamines for runny noses are similar, so one's preference is usually based on whether or not you mind feeling sleepy

Loratadine is a 2nd gen antihistamine and causes almost no drowsiness in the population

@Cerberus no need, if it's working

On the contrary, I would love to feel drowsy!

@M.A.R. OK this is good to know.

For a sore throat, the best lifehack is to gargle a bit of diphenhydramine (benadryl) syrup before drinking it

@M.A.R. And, if it doesn't work, is there a decent chance than another antihistamine might work better, or not really?

It makes you even sleepier than if you took cetirizine since it's a very old antihistamine