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alphabet
alphabet
00:25
@HippoSawrUs As a raccoon I wholeheartedly approve of this proposal. In fact, maybe do that even if nothing's missing.
Michael Rybkin
Michael Rybkin
@MetaEd thank you
alphabet
alphabet
00:57
In a rare piece of good news (well, in one state), we're gonna use rich people's money to fix the trains:
> The governor’s budget also would send $500 million in millionaires tax revenue to the MBTA, nearly quadrupling the state subsidy it got in this year’s budget. Combined with another $780 million Healey wants to dedicate to the T from the millionaires tax, the transit agency would see a nearly $1.3 billion infusion on top of the share of the state’s sales tax it already collects.
Cerberus
Cerberus
That is a lot of money.
Robusto
Robusto
01:26
@alphabet They'll just buy more train cars from Bombardier which will take years to arrive and then won't work when they get there.
Cerberus
Cerberus
We had that with Italian trains; I thought the Canadian ones were more reliable?
Robusto
Robusto
Not when I was riding the MBTA they weren't.
But perhaps Boston will have more luck this time.
> In 1996, [Bombardier] was selected as the lead developer for the Acela Express trains, the fastest trains in North America, in a $710 million contract. Problems with the trains resulted in lawsuits between the company and Amtrak.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Hmmm.
Maybe the French or German trains are the best, then?
I don't actually know which countries make their own (good) trains. Maybe also Japan?
Robusto
Robusto
Well, the French and Germans use rail transportation vastly more than we do here.
Although commuters in big cities definitely rely on them.
Washington D.C. has a great metro.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Most countries have a lot of rails.
But not all of those can make good trains...
Names that pop up are Alstom and Siemens.
Or does Siemens even make trains?
Robusto
Robusto
01:41
I cursed Chicago's system and Boston's back in the day. But looking back, they were probably usually trouble-free. It's just that when they're not the impact looms large in one's mind.
Hmm, further reading shows Bombardier is out of the rail business. They only make private jets now, apparently.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Oh, no...
How awful.
Robusto
Robusto
Archive September 3, 2023
Connections Puzzle #84
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
You might get a kick out of that one.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Oh, you are getting farther behind.
Do you have a link?
Robusto
Robusto
connectionsplus.io/game/86
Archive September 6, 2023
Connections Puzzle #87
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
That's an easy one.
Cerberus
Cerberus
OK I got yellow.
But I have a fever so not sure I can do this now.
Robusto
Robusto
01:56
Ah, then what are you doing up? Go to bed!
Cerberus
Cerberus
I am no early sleeper.
But, yeah, I will soon.
I am unsure about these four (spoiler): i.imgur.com/EEFONAY.jpeg
And I Googled Montero but have no idea of its significance.
alphabet
alphabet
Huh. Apparently the album's name came from the name of a car model?
Not sure what it says about me that I know more about Lil Nas X than about SUV models.
Cerberus
Cerberus
02:14
Never heard of that name.
Robusto
Robusto
02:28
@Cerberus I heard about the car, but not its use in the puzzle.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Oh I didn't even see anything about a car when I looked up the word.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/montero
Robusto
Robusto
This was a fun one:
Archive September 7, 2023
Connections Puzzle #88
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
Cerberus
Cerberus
03:11
Connections #86
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟦🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪
Oh, that wasn't the one you meant, 84.
Connections #84
🟩🟪🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
OK this is the one, yes it is good.
But I remembered purple, so I must have played it before? I also remember I got purple first the first time I played it.
alphabet
alphabet
03:31
Word of the day: attrit (verb). "To weaken or reduce by attrition." Backformation from attrition.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Ugh.
Why not attrite?
alphabet
alphabet
03:52
Because then the vowel would be different?
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Verb of the day: incarnadine
> No rose that in a garden ever grew,
In Homer's or in Omar's or in mine,
Though buried under centuries of fine
Dead dust of roses, shut from sun and dew
Forever, and forever lost from view,
But must again in fragrance rich as wine
The grey aisles of the air incarnadine
When the old summers surge into a new.
allpoetry.com/No-Rose-That-In-A-Garden-Ever-Grew
 
1 hour later…
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
05:09
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CowperKettle
CowperKettle
06:06
Don't Think Twice It's All Right - Bob Dylan
►
Dylan of the Day
HippoSawrUs
HippoSawrUs
06:29
In my youth, I could imitate Dylan imitating Loretta Lynn singing Coal Miner's Daughter, drunk.
I thought it was misspent, but now I realize it was just wasted talent.
I was probably an unfocused genius or something. Meh.
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
07:25
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What do we call such parts, used to adjust a bolt head's distance? "Long washers"?
@HippoSawrUs Nice! I should listen to "Coal Miner's Daughter"
HippoSawrUs
HippoSawrUs
08:22
@CowperKettle Spacer?
Xanne
Xanne
08:36
Connections
Puzzle #593
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪
Strands #327
“Get smart”
🔵💡🔵🔵
🔵🟡🔵
HippoSawrUs
HippoSawrUs
09:32
Who is drinking tap water nowadays? Ours is brown sometimes; we call that city water. Or shitty water. But never faucet water. The faucet is an innocent bystander, like a stainless steel swan and very expensive.
 
1 hour later…
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
10:55
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad ns for domain in answer (1): Why is BE used in: "having them BE read and dissected"?‭ by Allow‭ on english.SE
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (75): The use of 'that' in this sentence‭ by Allow‭ on english.SE
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (75): What's the difference between grammar and syntax?‭ by Allow‭ on english.SE
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
11:33
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at beginning of body (47): What Are Automatic Driving Instructors?‭ by Driving Imstructor‭ on english.SE
 
1 hour later…
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
12:50
@HippoSawrUs it's just extra minerals. A lot of extra minerals. It's probably medicinal.
Probably tastes medicinal too
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
13:13
@HippoSawrUs Thank you!
@HippoSawrUs Tap water is of bad quality here in Yekaterinburg.
Back in Siberia, I readily drank tap water.
It was very cold and clear, and without any odor, unlike here.
But then, the town was young and small, not more than 100 thousand people.
Well. In Shakespeare's time, London was not more than 200 thousand.
Robusto
Robusto
#travle #771 +1
🟧✅✅✅✅
https://travle.earth
Vikas
Vikas
@CowperKettle Tap water is not meant to be drunk here. We have to use water purifier.
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
@Vikas Same here, we used a three-step water purifier but it for some reason began to clog constantly, so we switched to buying water.
Robusto
Robusto
13:28
Wordle 1,314 4/6

⬛⬛⬛🟩⬛
⬛⬛🟨⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛🟨⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
13:42
@Cerberus @Xanne Today's connection is brutal; several other options for yellow, the blue I instinctively know has to do with the topic, but one word has a meaning I didn't know, and whoever can guess purple without the give away is probably a cyborg!
Robusto
Robusto
#WhenTaken #331 (23.01.2025)

I scored 762/1000🏅

1️⃣📍754 km - 🗓️5 yrs - 🥈172/200
2️⃣📍423 km - 🗓️17 yrs - 🥈151/200
3️⃣📍1.4K km - 🗓️2 yrs - 🥈160/200
4️⃣📍2.2 km - 🗓️9 yrs - 🥇187/200
5️⃣📍7.6K km - 🗓️11 yrs - 🥉92/200

https://whentaken.com
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
Which brought me to an interesting Connection in a theologian staff profile: Dr. Marika Rose whose blog article (when she was still a PhD student) I came across yesterday when researching for an answer:
Continental philosophy of religion & systematic theology, Slavoj Žižek, Negative Theology, Angels & Cyborgs. I have seen dozens of theology professor profiles, this one takes the cake! Anyone here has read Žižek?
But I'm glad that new generation theologian is paying attention to culture and deals with the necessity of re-enchantment apologetics that Western technological culture I think sorely needs. Her research interest:
> Marika's current research project focusses on the cultural and theological shift from angels to cyborgs as key figures for imagining the futures of human life, in order to ground a broader exploration of the process of disenchantment, the disappearance of a Christian-Neoplatonic vision of the world in which everything exists within a hierarchical system of signs that point to God,
> and subsequent re-enchantment, the emergence of a digitised, machinic capitalism, where exists within an algorithmic system of signs in which everything enables the circulation of surplus value.
Just like I notice a lot of philosophy professors have used themes from science fiction like Matrix, Star Trek, Marvel & DC comics, to teach philosophy, I guess modern theology doesn't want to be left behind. At any rate, I see a connection between theology of angels (as 100% spiritual intellect) with AI, though of course AI's root problem is in constructing an emergent intellect while angels are created as such from the get go.
Robusto
Robusto
Connections
Puzzle #592
🟨🟩🟪🟨
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪
Yeesh, that one was awful.
I never would have guessed purple.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
14:05
@Robusto At least she picked recent ones and is consistent in modifying only the first syllable. That would be a good technique when making our own connection puzzles so our players (is that the right term?) wouldn't revolt against us.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
14:21
ELU Encouragement for the day from me, a recent user. I appreciate the labor that philology / etymology warriors here have done. When I googled "from the get go", this answer came up as #6:
7
Q: Where does "get-go" come from?

BobsonWhere does the compound word "get-go", as in the phrase "right from the get-go" come from? None of the dictionary definitions I've seen try to explain it, and the Etymology Dictionary doesn't even have a reference to it. The only thing I can think of is that it's short for "GETting GOing", but ...

etymology idioms slang
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
14:41
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user image
@GratefulDisciple I only listened to his rantings on YouTube
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GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
14:54
@CowperKettle So he's still alive! Quite significant to have a Guide for the Perplexed book written about him 13 years ago! Guess after his death, a 2nd edition is needed.
Because of his connection with Jacques Lacan whose psychoanalytical theory is interesting to me, I'll include him in my radar.
From his Wikipedia article; quite colorful tag lines:
> In 2012, Foreign Policy listed Žižek on its list of Top 100 Global Thinkers, calling him "a celebrity philosopher", while elsewhere he has been dubbed the "Elvis of cultural theory"and "the most dangerous philosopher in the West". Žižek has been called "the leading Hegelian of our time", and "the foremost exponent of Lacanian theory".
> Foreign Policy named Žižek one of its 2012 Top 100 Global Thinkers "for giving voice to an era of absurdity".
There's "absurd" again. Seems like everything goes back to Camus. @Robusto
> In April, Žižek debated psychology professor Jordan Peterson at the Sony Centre in Toronto, Canada over happiness under capitalism versus Marxism.
Now that's a debate I want to watch, tagged "the debate of the century" by The Guardian, which was sold-out.
Slavoj Zizek debates Jordan Peterson [HD, Clean Audio, Full]
►
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
15:13
@GratefulDisciple I'm not an expert in philosphy :)
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@CowperKettle Me neither, but his contribution is more on politics, culture, and psychoanalysis, which is why the debate with Jordan Peterson is an even match. I'm listening to the debate moderator who is introducing those 2 "towering figures" (the beginning minutes). The audience is as rowdy as in a boxing match.
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
I love reading about neuropsychiatry. I read about psychoanalysis when I first became interested in psychiatry in the 2000s.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@CowperKettle While by profession and by personal interest in A.I. & Cognitive science, I'm more interested in the connection between neurology and philosophy of mind. And Psychoanalysis I tend to want to use it to investigate the totality of consciousness in the soul, assuming "normal" working of the brain and body, thus connecting them to the symbols that the mind generates during reflection, contemplation, planning, and action.
@CowperKettle Which psychoanalytic theory you're interested in? From the debate moderator intro, it looks like Jordan Peterson is a Jungian while Zizek is a Lacanian.
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Sorry, busy now!
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
15:29
@CowperKettle No worries. I have to do work myself. Hope you have a good night.
jlliagre
jlliagre
15:41
#WhenTaken #331 (23.01.2025)

I scored 872/1000🏆

1️⃣📍2.3 km - 🗓️7 yrs - 🥇191/200
2️⃣📍212 km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥇185/200
3️⃣📍2.4K km - 🗓️17 yrs - 🥉110/200
4️⃣📍20.2 km - 🗓️9 yrs - 🥇186/200
5️⃣📍2.0 km - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥇200/200

https://whentaken.com
Robusto
Robusto
Strands #326
“Udderly delicious”
🔵🔵🔵🔵
🟡🔵🔵
@jlliagre This one was awful.
@GratefulDisciple Well, except everything else goes back to Aristotle, right? At least in the West?
Daily Octordle #1095
🕛5️⃣
🕚7️⃣
3️⃣🔟
4️⃣9️⃣
Score: 61
jlliagre
jlliagre
16:03
Wordle 1,314 4/6

🟨⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨🟨⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
@Robusto That would have been almost a tie had you not missed a clue in the last one.
Robusto
Robusto
Daily Sequence Octordle #1095
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕚
🕛🕐
Score: 70
Robusto
Robusto
16:29
Daily Extreme Octordle #1095
🕚7️⃣
3️⃣4️⃣
5️⃣6️⃣
🔟9️⃣
Score: 55
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Robusto I think the West is also still struggling between two polarities. In the debate, it appears that Jordan Peterson is roughly championing Aristotle, while Žižek seems to champion Camus. As a peacemaker, I don't like to see this as a zero-sum game, rather, each diametrically opposed thinkers contribute a unique perspective, leaving an individual has to decide for himself which one is primary.
So my personal take is of course Aristotle as primary, but in compassionate listening, I value what the Camus camp is saying.
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
@GratefulDisciple Thank you! Good night!
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
17:26
Word before sleep: Radhanites.
> The economy of Europe was profoundly affected by the disappearance of the Radhanites. For example, documentary evidence indicates that many spices in regular use during the early Middle Ages completely disappeared from European tables in the 10th century.
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@GratefulDisciple my impression as barely above the average Joe in all the aforementioned fields is neurology and friends (basically whatever you want to append a neuro- to) are in infancy and psychoanalysis isn't scientifically rigorous enough for my liking (which some would argue is okay since it isn't meant to employ the scientific method in the first place?)
When in my own field trustworthy data and crystal clear correlation tends to be daydreaming I don't think such an interdisciplinary approach would pan out
The only thing I can know for sure about the human psyche is it loves making shit up
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
17:54
@M.A.R. For sure. Rationalization of desires maybe can be "scientifically" proven to be a human trait?
@M.A.R. Yes. I'm aware of the current debate between psychoanalyst (behavioral, sociological, and cultural) and psychotherapist (medical science).
@M.A.R. I agree with you there: still in infancy, lots of speculation. I think the value of interdisciplinary studies lie in the cross-fertilization of ideas for attacking problems in respective discipline, certainly in A.I., the field I'm somewhat familiar.
To me psychoanalysis is valuable mainly to generate insights and for therapy so one can flourish, not to be a definitive field that theorizes what human nature is.
MetaEd
MetaEd
Wordle 1,314 5/6

⬛🟨⬛⬛🟨
⬛⬛⬛🟩🟩
⬛🟨⬛🟩🟩
⬛⬛⬛🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
Strands #326
“Udderly delicious”
🟡🔵🔵🔵
🔵🔵🔵
Connections
Puzzle #592
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩
Cerberus
Cerberus
18:25
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Look at this colour scheme.
Can you find all four colours?
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@GratefulDisciple I don't even like how "soft" psychotherapy is. I'm just very rigid.
@Cerberus I think they're trying to imply that all the dialects blend into one another and a map is pointless.
With all those shades of swamp green
Cerberus
Cerberus
18:41
@M.A.R. That must be it.
Have you found all four?
On my main screen, two of the colours blend together almost completely.
And one colour blends with the grey.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@M.A.R. I can agree that psychotherapy is not science, so for one that wants a strict scientific approach, yeah, I can understand you. But then, don't you think there's room that once a full medical diagnostic has ruled out underlying medical conditions, run-of-the-mill mental conditions (such as depression, ADHD, rage, paranoia, addiction, etc.) should then try to be ameliorated with non-medical psychotherapy which includes psychoanalysis and even spiritual counseling?
Mayo Clinic article on Psychotherapy (under "Tests & Procedures").
Typo on my previous post. I meant non-medical psychotherapy vs. psychiatry (medical science).
@Cerberus I can see all 4. Using a simple graphic editor software it's even easier: just hover over the color to see the Hex code. Maybe even Chrome DevTools can do that. Maybe color that is less distinct signifies less distinct dialect. My great grandfather came from Southern China; his dialect was probably one of the Southern dialects. I'd like to see further refinement of the "Southern dialects" color.
@Cerberus You would want to adjust your monitor color calibration tool, to assist you adjust your monitor's color balance / brightness / contrast. Or install a color profile (which can get very complex). I think Windows 10/11 comes with a rudimentary calibration tool.
Cerberus
Cerberus
19:06
@GratefulDisciple Oh, perfect, the only thing you need to do is hover over it to see the different hex codes, the best colour scheme.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Cerberus The way I see it is, southern = the area including Guangzhou and Hong Kong; transitional = the area immediately north of there; Jiang-Huai dialects (varieties of Mandarin) = the north-eastern area including Shanghai; varieties of Wu = the north-western area including Wuhan
Cerberus
Cerberus
@MetaEd That is not what I see!
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
19:21
@Cerberus According to my dad, my great grandfather's dialect is Hokkien common to Chinese who migrated to Indonesia (reflected in the article). There is a graphic in that Wikipedia article showing the "Southern Min Languages"; they use a much more contrasting colors, so you should be able to see all 5.
Cerberus
Cerberus
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Look how the colours in the legend don't even match the colours in the map.
Confirmed by checking the hex codes.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Cerberus Excellent. Maybe one day someone will fix it.
Cerberus
Cerberus
What mark would you give the colour scheme of the map?
Wu Chinese
Wu (simplified Chinese: 吴语; traditional Chinese: 吳語; pinyin: Wúyǔ; Wugniu and IPA:6wu-gniu6 [ɦu˩.nʲy˦] (Shanghainese), 2ghou-gniu6 [ɦou˨.nʲy˧] (Suzhounese)) is a major group of Sinitic languages spoken primarily in Shanghai, Zhejiang province, and parts of Jiangsu province, especially south of the Yangtze River, which makes up the cultural region of Wu. The Wu languages are at times simply called Shanghainese, especially when introduced to foreigners. The Suzhounese variety was the prestige dialect of Wu as of the 19th century, but had been replaced in status by Shanghainese by the turn of the...
Mitch
Mitch
user image
@Cerberus The source map with the border, river/lakes, and cities is excellent. The areas are questionable (like somebody just arbitrarily drew some lines), the circle is extra arbitrary because that doesn't even try to be relevant to geography, and the color scheme is hardly a scheme at all for all the reasons you gave (very difficult to distinguish, don't match the legend, and probably many other desiderata).
Grade: Poor (not the absolute lowest since they were able to use the software to place things on the base map), but not even 'fair'.
@Cerberus Supposing the areas in this map correspond to something linguistically real, I find it hard to recognize from my memory of other linguistic maps of China. Which is to say it looks wrong to me but maybe I've seen only wrong maps before.
MetaEd
MetaEd
19:49
@Cerberus Does your map come from Wikipedia also?
alphabet
alphabet
20:03
@GratefulDisciple Surely psychotherapy is a form of medical treatment, one typically used for those run-of-the-mill conditions.
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Mitch Can you give it a number?
@MetaEd Yes.
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@CowperKettle threw me into a long Wikipaedia chain. Or rapidly branching root system, rather.
Mitch
Mitch
@alphabet Taking the liberty of speaking for @GratefulDisciple, I think he must have been referring to classic Freudianism which has often been described as non-scientific (not falsifiable by data). It is obvious that there is a great amount of replicable science done around psychotherapy, even when some of it is not always so reliable as we'd like.
Cerberus
Cerberus
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Orange and green languages may be related. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dene%E2%80%93Yeniseian_languages Reception among experts has been somewhat favorable; thus, Dene–Yeniseian has been called "the first demonstration of a genealogical link between Old World and New World language families that meets the standards of traditional comparative-historical linguistics".
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus I don't know the European grading scheme. If the exercise were on 'color schemes for maps' it'd be a C- (worst passing grade: able to use the software, poor color scheme). If it were just a beginner map making... C+ ? I mean now I know where Jiangnan is and what main cities are there and it is mostly Wu or Shanghaiese speakers, so it was somewhat successful.
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Mitch If an intelligent person in this room, to wit, Mr Ed, wrongly located the colours upon close inspection, then is that really "passing"?
Mitch
Mitch
20:13
I barely know anything about Chinese geography (I can never remember which one is the Yangtze and which is the Yellow River) but look at a bunch of maps in the last half hour, none of them seem to have the 'hills of Jiangnan' that this map has.
@Cerberus I'm very lenient, I know.
Cerberus
Cerberus
I would give it a 1.
Out of 1000.
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus I feel like worse could be done.
Cerberus
Cerberus
How?
Mitch
Mitch
Like Anna Karenina's family all good homework is good in the same way. Every bad homework is bad in different ways. There are so many ways for there to be more bad things, I just can't imagine them
Well, not her specific family.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Poor Anna.
Not the happiest person.
Mitch
Mitch
20:20
@Cerberus It doesn't end well for her.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Do we remember all the happy, similar Russian women? No.
MetaEd
MetaEd
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Mitch
Mitch
Or the cleanup people at the train station.
Cerberus
Cerberus
We remember only her.
@MetaEd What is this number?
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Cerberus - the hue. They match almost perfectly. The problems are with saturation and tint/shade (Value)
Cerberus
Cerberus
20:22
But, yes, that seems to be correct.
Mitch
Mitch
@MetaEd What are the saturation and brightness? I feel like saturation is almost identical for all.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Oh, I see. I don't know enough about computer colours to know what, exactly, hue and tint are.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch I used the Gimp color picker - you just have to switch it from RGB to HSV
Mitch
Mitch
do you remember offhand what you got?
MetaEd
MetaEd
I didn't record them. I just recorded the hue.
"left as an exercise" :D
Mitch
Mitch
20:24
Right, so without having to go through those motions all over again, do you happen to remember the saturation values or roughly?
Cerberus
Cerberus
@MetaEd By the way, there is no reason why those numbers should not match perfectly. Any deviation is stoopid.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Cerberus totally agree
Cerberus
Cerberus
At any rate.
I challenge anyone to find a naturally occurring map with a worse colour scheme.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch no. I paid no attention. I would have gone over to those columns except I had already found the correlating number
Mitch
Mitch
I looked at the other maps that author had created for wikipedia... they didn't seem awful on cursory glance. As to accuracy who knows, they were all made 'originally' by 'seasonsinthesun' possibly from memory at school or some history book's map sitting next to him.
@MetaEd got it.
@Cerberus OK agreed...It'd be pretty hard to find worse...
except...
MetaEd
MetaEd
20:28
user image
Mitch
Mitch
if you do a google search for maps you can get -a lot- that are not very good.
not just bland, too similar colors, but also the other end, the garish rainbow scheme.
MetaEd
MetaEd
Wikipedia is the "anyone can edit" so this is fixable if you want ... alternatively you can message the person who made the image
Mitch
Mitch
super hard to fix without the original map and added layers. editing a plain bitmap is time-consuming an error-prone.
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Mitch Garish rainbow can still be marked as passing, as long as the map serves its purpose.
@Mitch It is not so hard using Photoshop.
It won't be 100% perfect, but good enough, and far better than the original.
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus I'm not very good at image editing, I find it tedious to get right.
I suppose you could pick one color and change it to a better color, but I don't know how to do that, I just know how to use the brushes and paint can
MetaEd
MetaEd
20:39
"Turbo, An Improved Rainbow Colormap for Visualization"
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Mitch Yes, you can do that, and it is easy. The only thing is that the border areas will have JPG artefacts.
Mitch
Mitch
maybe those colors look the same to me because I have older eyes (I find it hard to read low contrast greay on white that all the kids these days seem to love).
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Mitch No, they look the same to us, too.
Remember that one of us (I shan't name any names) got it wrong, even.
And this is not a person known to get things wrong.
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus You're talking about me here, aren't you.
Anyway, editing images in wikipedia seems like a lot of work for little return except for teaching you that -anybody- can edit things on wikipedia. And they do.
I already have learned that lesson.
It's annoying that wikipedia is the source of record for most everything nowadays.
Sure there are prior sources that are sometimes used, but no one cares.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch It's not, never has been. It's the tertiary source, or encyclopedic source, of record, maybe. But it is designed to rely on peer-reviewed secondary sources that in turn are based on primary sources.
Cerberus
Cerberus
20:53
@Mitch You didn't read the map wrong...
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@Cerberus yes but the colors in the legend seem to be different from what's on the map. Or my eyes are deceiving me. Or the guy who made the map is deceiving me. Or it's the Chinese
Cerberus
Cerberus
@M.A.R. You are correct.
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@MetaEd I think Mitch is saying nobody, well, few people truly treat it as a tertiary source
Mitch
Mitch
21:08
@M.A.R. exactly. It may have intentions of being secondary or tertiary, but it is used as a primary source of truth.
alphabet
alphabet
21:52
@Mitch It probably has at least as much to do with monitor calibration as with eyesight.
> Judge Coughenour emphatically agreed with the states: “I’ve been on the bench for over four decades,” he said. “I can’t remember another case where the question presented was as clear as this one is. This is a blatantly unconstitutional order. Where were the lawyers when this decision was being made?”
Out of their minds is where.
Or handcuffed to a desk and whipped if they don't sign things.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@alphabet Using the term "medical" in itself seems to be at the core conflict between psychiatrist vs. non-MD psychotherapist, similar to the conflict between Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western medicine, as well as the conflict between Osteopathy vs. Medical Doctor education, which lead to different degrees (D.O. vs MD).
@Mitch Yes, that's in the ballpark, although Freudianism itself is more than 100 years old and there are now many different psychoanalytic approaches with not only different methods but different underlying ("non-scientific") theories.
I can see the validity of @M.A.R. point in that therapies in medical science (especially if it's drug related) is based on biology & chemistry which is empirically more testable than the repeatability of psychoanalytic-theory "experiment", that are somewhat nebulous because it deals with mental states that CANNOT be measured objectively like in drug research.
alphabet
alphabet
22:11
@GratefulDisciple Surely psychotherapy is generally seen as a kind of medical treatment.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
So I think "psychotherapy" is a good name; it doesn't claim to be science. "Drug therapy" is also a good name because a patient's underlying condition (esp. of cancer) may not be treatable since the drug has not been tested under that patient's specific condition, making "designer medicine" to hold much promise for cancer and other hard-to-treat conditions.
@alphabet Yeah, but it is incumbent on how you define "medical".
alphabet
alphabet
Psychotherapy is used because it's seen as a scientifically validated intervention. (Psychoanalysis, though, has much less research behind it.)
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple yeah I think you're being extreme here.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
As an innocent newcomer to humanities and social science who happens to be Christian, I was in shock when I took Psychology 101 (and years later read about philosophy of psychology) because it excludes the soul in the definition. It only deals strictly with externally observable behavior, like in Skinner's experiment. So I believe in medical textbooks they prefer to exclude non-physical aspects of the psyche, while psychotherapy deals with the whole person.
Mitch
Mitch
Lots of psychotherapy is very scientific. Of course it is not as exact as physics. And there are some non scientific practices. But MD and non-MD therapists try to use repeatable science based methods.
I'm defending quacks.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
22:16
@Mitch :-)
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple strict behaviorism (like skinners) hasn't been in favor since the 60s.
Most researchers and practitioners think of mental states as real things that are difficult to determine, but they can do better than chance.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch I'm still a skeptic about how sociology, psychology, economics, and anthropology can call themselves "social scientist". Just adding the word "social" doesn't make one a scientist. Like us who obtain the wrath of Engineers for calling ourselves "software engineer".
@Mitch I know I'm using a very old example, but isn't that the kind of partial-human observation that psychology (as a "science") methodically limits itself to?
Mitch
Mitch
Like @CowperKettle likes to say, depression may be multiple diseases and there are no known biomarkers for it (lab tests of blood or tissue) but there are scientific (reliable) behavioral tests that show that some medications change behavior and self report of inner state reliably.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@alphabet If you referring to drug-based psychotherapy, yes, I can see that.
@Mitch I trust the findings of CBT therapy research as a reasonably good therapies to try, I just feel there has to be different grading when it comes to distinguishing it from "hard science". Repeatability alone doesn't make it a "science", I feel, when there are many non-controllable variables involved (i.e. "out of the scope" of the experiment).
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple argh I meant to say I'm not defending quacks
@GratefulDisciple also ECT (electro convulsive therapy), CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and many others.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
22:25
@Mitch That's my case in point. The model of human presumed by drug <-> behavior experiment itself, to me, is an awfully deficient model.
@Mitch I read it as your trying to be funny.
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple no. I thought I made it clear that most docs and therapists don't subscribe to behaviorism.
@GratefulDisciple oh haha, yeah I very much mistyped. I am not trying to defend therapists who are selling voodoo (which you seem to think all therapy is). I'm trying to defend well founded (but surely highly variable) science.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch Yes, I know behaviorism has been superseded by a much more holistic model of the human person, I just use it as an example of how even after model improvements, I still don't think it is enough basis for a scientifically reliable findings. I think I need to come up with specific examples, someday we'll revisit this.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch I don't actually have a problem with that. I still want to send kids to the encyclopedia when they have a question -- please go look it up and learn something. Only difference is now it's online
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple sure it may be deficient, but it's not degenerate (empty). It's better than nothing.
MetaEd
MetaEd
If anything, the way Wikipedia operates is with more transparency than, say, the old Encyclopedia Americana
Mitch
Mitch
22:32
There's no penicillin yet for mental health.
@MetaEd yes that is a good thing in its favor
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch Quacks definitely improve mental health. I used to walk along the Iowa River of an evening, listening to the ducks laughing at me. Always helped keep me humble
Cerberus
Cerberus
@MetaEd The only thing is that a malevolent party could edit certain Wikipaedia articles to his own purposes.
Mitch
Mitch
1) haha
2) humble? That's quite a leap.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch I think we agree that it's a spectrum, and in engaging with psychological research, I try for them to have their "best say" for me to argue against. Reliability is of course improved when the unknown variables are decreased significantly. But to approach the reliability level of drug science, my hunch it's still a very long way to go, if it is at all possible because consciousness itself is far from being proven to be an emergent quality of the brain.
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Cerberus so could an Americana editor as far as we know, but with less transparency and a longer life of the misinformation
Mitch
Mitch
22:35
I followed you all the up until you mentioned emergent. I don't see how emergence is relevant at all.
Cerberus
Cerberus
@MetaEd But there are far fewer Americana editors (I praesume, I had not heard of it) than Wikipaedia editors.
It takes only one malevolent editor.
And praesumably the editors of a paper encyclopaedia will be somewhat reliable people who know each other.
Mitch
Mitch
@MetaEd yes, but there's some expectation of quality from an encyclopedia editor. You do not have that expectation for Wikipedia.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch I heard you, and I note that objection. I'll have to read a few papers on the latest philosophical psychology first for me to have more trust of non-medical psychology as a "science". I would more readily call psychology as "technology" for the soul. Just use pragmatic approach. If more people can be successfully helped with a certain "psychological technology" then call it "good technology" not "scientifically proven".
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
I never use Wikipedia for anything remotely serious. It's mostly a replacement for celebrity shows for me. "Oh this meme mentions Louis Armstrong, let's see what Wikipedia has to say about him."
MetaEd
MetaEd
@Mitch But I do.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
22:40
I use the same approach with "spirituality" nowadays. Too many charismatics have practices that I would rather call "spiritual technology" instead.
MetaEd
MetaEd
I do read it skeptically and if I have any doubts I look at the recent edit history, which is like one click away.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Cerberus I trust more a curated encyclopaedia backed by a company such as Britannica compared to Wikipedia whose reliability is a lot more uneven. And I'm glad to see Britannica has evolved to do the best of both worlds by showing the editing history.
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@GratefulDisciple of course cognitive behavioral therapy is the cornerstone of treatment for many mental disorders. It's certainly more rigorous and robust than almost everything you would find in humanities. But "it's the best we've got" does not absolve where it's lacking.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@M.A.R. No argument from me. I just want academicians of various schools (natural science, social science, and humanities) to be more upfront and come up with a universal spectrum of "scientific reliability" that even a high school graduate can see the gaps that exist between various claimants of the name "science" and "scientist" when you see the where each discipline's reliability IS in a single line.
For my part, Aquinas called theology a science (!) which theologians today would not use, since the meaning is so different than the regular meaning of "science" today. It would have to be located in the FAR END of that line.
Mitch
Mitch
@GratefulDisciple I don't distinguish the two. I can only say "technically works" if one has shown scientifically (with stats) that it is a repeatable process.
alphabet
alphabet
22:54
@GratefulDisciple I'm not sure what you mean by "non-medical psychology." Psychology is a medical discipline.
Mitch
Mitch
Whether things have a plausible explanatory mechanism for it or not is another matter. It's very nice if there is one, and somewhat underwhelming if it doesn't.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch To me the difference lies in the nature of the explanation of cause. To be a successful technology you don't have to demonstrate cause, unless of course it is a technology that is founded on hard science like a computer.
@alphabet It would help if you propose a definition of "medical".
Mitch
Mitch
I'm not sure a plausible and likely mechanism is absolutely necessary (definitely the next step)
@GratefulDisciple we don't know the mechanism of gravity but we can sure of how to experience it.
Robusto
Robusto
I think AI will get just good enough that its errors will too subtle for humans to catch at first glance.
GratefulDisciple
GratefulDisciple
@Mitch It seems that in the history of science & technology, technology would be first, then come plausible and likely mechanism, then come scientific theory, then come hypothesis for empirical experiment, then repeatability of experiments by different people, then finally CERTIFICATION.
Mitch
Mitch
22:57
@GratefulDisciple that exists. It's called statistics.
alphabet
alphabet
@GratefulDisciple We don't know why Tylenol (aka acetaminophen, paracetamol) works, but the fact that it works is thoroughly scientifically established.
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