English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:55

Connections
Puzzle #590
🟨🟦🟦🟦
🟨🟦🟦🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦

I didn't quite get blue's category until it was revealed.

Xanne

Connections
Puzzle #590
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

I didn’t get purple except as the leftovers.

Cerberus

I got it!

Despite only knowing two of the items.

But I guessed the two others.

Maybe I had heard one of them at some point in the past without remembering.

tchrist

> A class-action lawsuit filed last year on behalf of more than 350,000 homeowners accused the FAIR Plan of wrongfully excluding smoke damage from coverage, saying that the damage was being denied if it were not clearly visible, such as a singed wall, or not detectable through smell.

Ouch. :(

Hypercorrection strikes again.

> For Ms. Page, the fires struck not long after she moved into her rental house above El Prieto Canyon with her adult son and nephew. The $5,500 rent was a stretch, but it felt like home.

Who in the world has $100k of their salary sunk into fricking rent? What are these people?

Let alone, who has a $100k salary in the first place. Gosh.

Robusto

01:12

@tchrist It's not that much in this day and age, and $5,5000 rent is not that much in California either.

tchrist

> For the year 2022, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates that the median annual earnings for all workers (people aged 15 and over with earnings) was $47,960; and more specifically estimates that median annual earnings for those who worked full-time, year round, was $60,070.

Robusto

@tchrist That includes all the min-wage workers, who I believe comprise the bulk of all earners.

tchrist

Assuming that she's paying 30% of her annual salary as rent, that puts her at 250% the that level. But remember that she's paying after tax not before tax.

Robusto

When I was working, I didn't know anybody who was established in my profession who was making less than $100K.

I mean, you couldn't live in the Boston area for less than that.

tchrist

> While ZipRecruiter is seeing annual salaries as high as $95,500 and as low as $33,000, the majority of Entry Level Computer Programmer salaries currently range between $50,500 (25th percentile) to $80,000 (75th percentile) with top earners (90th percentile) making $87,000 annually across the United States.

Robusto

01:18

Across the United States. Not in either of the Bay areas.

tchrist

There are plenty of companies who pay all remote workers on the same scale, no matter where they live.

It just sounds like nobody whatsoever without a high-power high-salary senior position can afford to live in any of these places. No teachers. No hourly workers. Nobody.

Cerberus

Yes, that is a big problem.

Many commute.

Robusto

Before my son was a senior scientist he lived in various houses with 4 or 5 roommates. Now he owns his own house.

Cerberus

The city assigns some 'cheap' houses for teachers, nurses, and policemen. But not enough by far.

tchrist

This is the exact problem in places like Aspen. Nobody can work there.

> The median home price in Aspen, Colorado varies depending on the type of property and the neighborhood. As of March 2024, the median price for a single-family home in Aspen was $12 million. The median price for a condo or townhome was $3 million.

Robusto

01:23

Teachers get a shit deal everywhere in the US.

tchrist

Isn't that utterly insane?

Cerberus

I do not know it, what makes that city/town so expensive?

Robusto

@tchrist Are there trailer parks in Aspen?

I think a lot of billionaires fly their private jets into Aspen, where they own their own homes.

I mean, who else can afford that?

Someone like me could afford a vacation home in, say, Pagosa Springs (assuming I cared to waste my time and money), but never in one of the main ski resorts.

tchrist

I believe that the ski companies have assigned corporate housing/barracks for at least some of their workers. Others commute from afar. I'll let you figure out just how well that works in a place that gets 25 feet of snow per year.

@Robusto Exactly.

Xanne

Strands #324
“You don't say ...”
🔵💡🔵🔵
💡🔵💡🔵
💡🔵🟡🔵

tchrist

01:28

@Robusto Yes, I kind of like Pagosa Springs.

Robusto

I like it to visit, but I would never take on the responsibility of two homes.

tchrist

@Cerberus It's where the movie stars go skiing. Well I'm exaggerating. Probably. There are other rich people who fly there too.

@Robusto nope

Cerberus

OK I suppose a skiing village is expensive because there is little space to build?

tchrist

Yes, that is exactly part of it.

If you Google why Aspen is so expensive, it says this:

> AI Overview
Learn more
Aspen is considered one of the most expensive towns in the United States primarily due to its reputation as a luxury ski resort, attracting wealthy individuals with its exclusive atmosphere, world-class skiing, limited land availability, strict development regulations, high-end amenities, and a focus on luxury real estate, which all contribute to high property prices and overall cost of living in the area.
Key reasons for Aspen's high cost:
Exclusive image and celebrity appeal:

Cerberus

It sounds like a nightmare.

tchrist

01:32

Correct. I believe I've only bothered to go through there once, and I wasn't the driver.

Cerberus

Cold, expensive tourist Hell.

Robusto

You know, even if I had that kind of wealth I wouldn't spend it sniffing the asses of those awful people.

Cerberus

Exactly.

tchrist

Because of this, I never ever come at the Maroon Bells–Snowmass National Wilderness from the north via Aspen, only 6 or 8 hours away from the south via Crested Butte, a far humbler town.

Similarly to how I would never approach the Grand Canyon from the south where all the idiots are, but only from the north which gets like a tenth the visitors because it's "out of the way". The North Rim is much nicer than the South Rim. It was designed to be this way.

The idiots from Los Angeles can get to the South Rim too easily.

I've known people who've owned homes in San Francisco. Several, in fact. But all were of my own generation or older.

And no, don't reach for the facile explanation that I know no one younger than myself. :)

I went through Aspen the time I was in the back of a little Jeep Wrangler that had the insane gumption to traverse the nearly impassable Devil's Punchbowl beyond Schofield Pass. Many people have died trying that, but they were also in stupid big vehicles at night during bad storms. Every other time I've done that route I've walked it.

> Schofield Pass is a narrow and scenic road between Marble and Crested Butte. The 4WD road follows the Crystal River past the Sheep Mountain Power House (aka Crystal Mill) and takes you through the semi-ghost town of Crystal and past the water fall known as the Devils Punchbowl.

It is very, very, very pretty. But just walk. Those personal ATVs can do it, too, though.

Robusto

01:47

I had to speak at an early Web conference in Beaver Creek three decades ago. It was summertime, though, so the plutocrats weren't there.

tchrist

You know, I'm pretty sure I did something similar in that time frame but I'll be damned if I can remember anything about it. Maybe it will come back to me tomorrow.

alphabet

@Robusto There's plenty of buildings around here where a tiny studio goes for $3500-4000 a month.

Robusto

@alphabet Oh, I'm sure of it.

tchrist

The non-insane ski towns are kinda nice in the summer. I wouldn't go there otherwhen.

Cerberus

@alphabet How many square m?

tchrist

01:55

Not to mention anywhen, somewhen, everywhen, nowhen, elsewhen, mostwhen. But I should avoid seldwhen as the OED says it is rarely used.

alphabet

@Cerberus Around 35-40.

Cerberus

OK that is pretty big for a studio.

But, yeah, that's expensive.

That would be more like 2000 here.

Maybe a bit more.

alphabet

There are, of course, neighborhoods and buildings where the prices are less absurd.

Cerberus

I hear some people say that rents in Amsterdam are now higher than in Paris.

Robusto

@Cerberus A dubious honor.

Cerberus

01:59

Indeed.

The tax cut of 30% for rich foreigners doesn't help the housing market.

tchrist

> 1546 Meete shall they seldwhan, or haply neuer. —J. Heywood, Dialogue Prouerbes English Tongue i. xii. sig. F
a1500 (1422) Thow shalte Preyse and commende scarsly and seldewannes. —J. Yonge, translation of Secreta Secretorum (Rawlinson MS.) (1898) 157
(a1387) Men of that lond haueþ no feuere, but onliche þe feuere agu, and þat wel silde whanne. —J. Trevisa, translation of R. Higden, Polychronicon (St. John's Cambridge MS.) (1865) vol. I. 333
?c1225 (?a1200) Swich ach wummone lare to beon. luuelich & liðe. selthwenne sturne. —Ancrene Riwle (Cleopatra MS. C.vi) (1972) 315

alphabet

My rent isn't that insane. But I could never live outside the city.

tchrist

Probably it lost out to simple seldom.

No great loss, I suppose.

@Cerberus ?

Cerberus

Foreigners with a high salary get a 30% cut off their income taxes for a number of years.

tchrist

Why in the world for?

Cerberus

02:02

Lobbying by big companies.

They like to attract foreign employees.

tchrist

No, wrong direction of for.

I meant to what purpose not from what cause. But ok, close enough.

Cerberus

Yeah, purpose, reason, and cause are often the same.

tchrist

In Iberian tongues you have to distinguish the direction, maybe like para un resultado futuro versus por una causa pasada.

English just has for either way.

But there are many completely idiomatic uses that do not appear to follow that rule, or at least, obey higher rules than I have been able to here encapsulate.

I'm super tired. Even English syntax comes out sounding funny to me right now.

@Cerberus This sounds like some strange kind of a bribe or kickback.

Wouldn't that infuriate the Dutchman earning the same salary in the same job?

Cerberus

It does.

Especially those trying to compete in the housing market.

tchrist

And rightly so, by my jaded yet childish sense of justice.

Cerberus

02:10

Bidding against foreigners with a similar job is useless.

But the liberal conservatives want to keep it.

tchrist

That's certainly not going to improve the general populace's attitude about immigrants.

@Cerberus Orwellian newspeak, that.

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly.

There has been backlash.

tchrist

Even informal workers paid in cash here getting to keep it all bugs people who have to pay taxes on everything they make because it all goes through official channels.

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

But that's below board; your country's situation is above board!

Out in the open and explicitly permitted.

Cerberus

02:15

So even worse.

People who let themselves be hired for 'gigs' rather than being employed by an organisation also get tax cuts.

This has resulted in a large proportion of the population no longer having permanent contracts, being without labour protection and pensions.

tchrist

We've seen a lot of that here. It's a terrible thing.

The plutocrats always win, right up until there's a bloody revolution that's even worse.

Cerberus

Smaller employers also win, and high-paid workers may also win.

But especially poor and middling workers lose, and society loses because of the lower tax income.

tchrist

It bugs people ground up by the gears either of the sausage maker or of the bureaucracy to have no voices in their own fate.

Cerberus

Yeah.

jlliagre

Cerberus

02:20

Oh, Hawaii.

tchrist

Hawaii: America's Switzerland.

Cerberus

That seems to be the same scale?

Except that Switzerland is a lot bigger.

Xanne

@Robusto Probate Court

Cerberus

I can't believe that Czechia should be far more expensive than Austria!

Robusto

@Xanne Yeah, MetaEd pointed that out.

So someone quoted Swift to me, and I didn't recognize the quote. Turns out she was talking about Taylor, not Jonathan.

Cerberus

02:24

Ouch.

tchrist

@Cerberus Vienna is certainly more expensive than Prague to live in.

Cerberus

I will believe that.

tchrist

Allegedly about 25% more expensive.

Cerberus

Houses in Amsterdam are about €10,000 per m².

tchrist

That's of course just one data point.

By other measures it about 33% higher. I don't know about out in the country, though. Assuming they still have any countryside left for cows and bison and such.

Most cows pay more than most apartment dwellers do: they pay with their lives.

Oh it's Romania they're trying to rewild the bison in, not Czechia.

Cerberus

02:31

Even the most densely populated countries are still mostly countryside, city-states excepted.

jlliagre

tchrist

@Cerberus By winter, yes. By summer when it's 100 to 110 at lower elevations, it's a pleasant and actually liveable 60 to 80.

@Cerberus I know. I was kidding.

Cerberus

Phew.

@jlliagre Paris under 30, really?

tchrist

But there's tilled and untilled: there's countryside that's farmed and there's countryside left wild. Those proportions vary greatly.

Cerberus

In Amsterdam, a room is about €50 per m². Of course larger houses are less expensive per m².

tchrist

02:35

Managed agriculture of any sort, not just tilled, versus unmanaged land.

A country that cannot grow its own food is an easily besieged city-state.

Cerberus

What if it imports from friendly neighbours?

tchrist

Singapore, Monaco, and Vatican City all have their friends.

jlliagre

@Cerberus That depends on the neighborhood. One site tells it's between €27 and €44 per m². Paris has a rent control law that try to prevent them to skyrocket. Anyway, it is very difficult to find something to rent inside Paris. Easier outside.

tchrist

In 1925, only 1% of Ireland was forested because they'd cut it all down for growing food. Today it's up to 11.6%. Well, or 9% in Northern Ireland.

jlliagre

Rent regulation

Rent regulation is a system of laws for the rental market of dwellings, with controversial effects on affordability of housing and tenancies. Generally, a system of rent regulation involves: Price controls, limits on the rent that a landlord may charge, typically called rent control or rent stabilization Eviction controls: codified standards by which a landlord may terminate a tenancy: 1 : 1 Obligations on the landlord or tenant regarding adequate maintenance of the property A system of oversight and enforcement by an independent regulator and ombudsman The loose term "rent control" covers a...

> Rent regulations are determined in France based on the Rent Reference Index, which serves as the basis for what landlords can increase yearly rents by. In July 2022, France introduced a new cap on yearly rent increase of a maximum of 3.5% for one year.

tchrist

02:50

@jlliagre I really wish my yearly property tax would stop going up 30–40% every two years.

It's not like my salary does that.

Cerberus

@jlliagre That sounds very similar to Amsterdam.

@tchrist I hope you are not in serious financial problems.

jlliagre

Paris housing prices are going down since 2021.

Robusto

@tchrist Boulder is a pricey market anyway. At our house in MA we were paying $1,000/mo in property taxes, and that's when it was only valued at about $850,000. Now that it's up to $1.4 million I can't imagine what it must be.

tchrist

@Robusto A property a few doors away from me, at the street corner but without any of the views or open space access that I have, just sold to a developer for $1.6M who completely scraped it to the ground in the past few days.

So of course my place has been assessed an even higher value. It's insane.

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, it's the San Francisco syndrome. $2M homes are teardowns.

Cerberus

03:02

@jlliagre That is probably still higher than here. But our rents are relatively high compared to buying.

jlliagre

Then, there is Monaco :-)

Cerberus

@tchrist Nice, then at least you can always up your mortgage if you ever need money?

tchrist

@Cerberus Um what? You mean borrow money and be forced to pay back more than that?

Cerberus

@jlliagre Yeah, there is always rich and richer...

@tchrist Yes. To get cash.

tchrist

But that's just stealing from myself.

Cerberus

03:04

Only if you need cash.

tchrist

I worked very hard to no longer have a mortgage's guillotine blade of Damocles yoked over my neck. The idea of going back to that sounds like penury to me.

And people wonder why I can never retire.

@Robusto I pay $1500 a month in taxes and fees on a home I own completely, and this goes up around 30% or worse every two years. There's no way I will ever be able to afford to retire. Ever. It's miserable.

Adding a fucking mortgage to that would make me suicidal.

Sure I could sell my home and retire to somewhere dry and dusty in South Dakota and live for 30 years just on the interest alone.

Nobody will ever do that. Or the kids complaining about not being able to buy homes in downtown San Francisco or Boston or Manhattan for their remote jobs would have done that a long time ago.

It's too late at night. Life seems hopeless. I blame looking at the news. I'm going to bed.

Cerberus

@tchrist It can be a small mortgage.

As small as the yearly increase in the price of the house.

Sleep well, for now.

Xanne

03:21

A reverse mortgage might work.

Cerberus

Reverse?

alphabet

Your bank pays you $X a month, then they get your house when you die. (Basically.)

I assume it's for a fixed term, not until your actual death; the latter would create some odd incentives.

Xanne

Yes. Like alphabet says.

alphabet

"Every reverse mortgage comes with a free lifetime supply of cigarettes."

Xanne

No, it’s often for life. I don’t know about provisions if you need to move to a nursing home.

Mitch

03:25

Odd.

jlliagre

Sounds similar to a viager.

Le Viager

Le Viager is a 1972 French comedy film directed by Pierre Tchernia and starring Michel Serrault, Michel Galabru and Claude Brasseur, adapted from a script by René Goscinny, the creator of the Asterix comics. == Plot == In 1930 in Paris, Dr Léon Galipeau examines 59-year-old Louis Martinet. Convinced that his patient has a maximum of two years to live, Galipeau convinces his brother Emile to use a 'viager' (life annuity) to buy Martinet's lovely country house in the fishing village of Saint-Tropez (at the time, St-Tropez was not the world renowned destination it is today). The 'viager' is a French...

Xanne

Think of it like selling your house with the right to remain there until you die.

alphabet

Huh. I just sorta assumed that tchrist was obscenely wealthy, given that he has his own Wikipedia page and seems to heap scorn on the unrefined peasantry.

jlliagre

@Xanne Exactly.

> The 'viager' is a French system whereby someone buys a house from a person, repaying them by instalments until the person's death, only upon which the house finally transfers to the buyer.

viagimmo.fr/nos-annonces/55368604

Cerberus

@alphabet This is very, very American thinking. Money has absolutely nothing to do with refined taste. On the contrary.

alphabet

03:40

@Cerberus Certainly one can have refined taste without money. But contempt for the vulgus is usually associated with the well-to-do.

Cerberus

@alphabet Not contempt for bad taste.

alphabet

@Cerberus Contempt for the tastes of most ordinary people.

Cerberus

That is a different thing.

alphabet

Yes.

Cerberus

There is some overlap, but those are different things.

alphabet

03:44

"Refined" taste is, traditionally, just the taste associated with the upper class.

Cerberus

That is not its essence.

alphabet

It does seem to be its origin.

Cerberus

Not sure what you mean.

But good art is good art.

alphabet

Is it, though? Or is it just art you were conditioned to see as good?

Cerberus

Good art is generally art with some depth, and which is pour l'art, or at least not wholly the contrary.

alphabet

03:53

What does "with some depth" mean? Can you measure it? Or is it something people just assure themselves exists in order to find a reason behind their aesthetic judgments?

Cerberus

E.g. inspecting it again gives more interesting experiences. That is what depth can be like.

alphabet

But doesn't that depend entirely on the beholder? Different people derive more interesting experiences from different things.

Cerberus

Everything depends on the beholder.

It's art.

Without a beholder, it is a blind collection of molecules.

Mitch

💩

alphabet

Exactly, which is why there's no objective reason why one person's tastes would be better than another's.

Cerberus

03:59

Who cares?

There is no objective reason why killing two people is worse than killing one.

alphabet

It suggests that the usage of the term "bad taste" makes little sense.

Cerberus

It is a strange idea to think that nothing makes sense in life.

Mitch

If a bear poops in the woods, does anyone hear it?

Cerberus

Of course it is true at the highest level.

But it is banal.

@Mitch Exactly.

Mitch

It's all so arbitrary man.

alphabet

04:01

@Cerberus Surely most people don't just believe but know that killing two people is worse than killing one.

Cerberus

Everything is a series of arbitrary collisions of atoms, as Lucretius said.

Mitch

@Cerberus my imagination makes me think they must be pretty loud.

I don't know.

Cerberus

@alphabet How would that be objective?

The Amazon Forest doesn't care whether you kill one or two people.

Mitch

@alphabet depends on the people?

alphabet

@Cerberus Why is that relevant?

Cerberus

04:02

@Mitch Perhaps you should wander around a forest and wait until you hear it happen.

@alphabet Because it isn't objective. It is how people feel about it.

Ultimately nothing is 'objective'.

Mitch

Speaking of the Amazon, I'd really like to visit but I hear they have an insect problem.

Cerberus

And many of the most important things in life are far less objective than most other things, if objectivity is even a sensible category.

alphabet

@Cerberus So there's nothing less objective about "Killing two people is worse than one" than there is about "I have two hands"? That's my position, but I don't think it's yours.

Mitch

Also I'd want to see a Jaguar in the wild, but I have a feeling they don't like tourists.

Cerberus

I don't follow.

Art is not about objectivity, even if objectivity really existed.

It makes no sense to me.

Mitch

04:04

You're walking through the forest looking to see a jaguar, and all the time they're stalking you, just waiting for just the right time to pounce.

Cerberus

@Mitch Perhaps more so than do bears.

Mitch

I'd wear one of those masks on the back of my head so the cat thinks I'm always looking at it.

Cerberus

Does that work?

Mitch

I don't think they'd really fall for that kind of stupidity.

alphabet

@Cerberus Art certainly isn't about objectivity. That doesn't mean that nothing is.

Cerberus

04:06

Cats are pretty stupid.

@alphabet Ultimately, nothing is. But art least of all.

Mitch

@Cerberus it's really too bad. I'd take really awesome pictures, as well as a shaky phone could.

Cerberus

And videos?

Mitch

I'd cuddle their babies, so soft and furry. Take teal good care of them too.

Cerberus

Ending in screams followed by a mauling sound?

Mitch

@Cerberus I've rarely taken videos...takes up an awful lot of disk space.

Cerberus

04:08

@Mitch That's a really good idea, approaching the bear's lair to take care of their cubs.

Mitch

If that is indeed what they call more persistent memory these days.

Cerberus

But it would be your final video.

Mitch

@Cerberus and jaguars babies too.

Cerberus

Sweet.

Mitch

Not at the same time, that would be a lot to handle.

Cerberus

04:09

But the bear mother will be the most touched by your concern.

alphabet

@Cerberus Have you tried only assenting to kataleptic impressions?

I hear only assenting to kataleptic impressions can help with that sort of problem.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah I'd expect bears to be a bit more tolerant. Cats can be very...

They like things just right.

Wouldn't stand for holding jaguar cubs the wrong way.

@Cerberus they're not the brightest tool in the shed

Cerberus

@alphabet Well, objectively there is no such thing.

Mitch

I can say that because cats can't read.

Cerberus

So they pretend.

Mitch

04:12

@Cerberus that's absurd. I would never do that, no matter how angry or hungry I was.

Cerberus

OK, good to know.

So you are more cat than bear.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't think I've ever seen a cat even bother

@Cerberus what?

My avatar is just a random picture I like. I don't identify in any way with a cat in a box with a cat, in a box.

Not usually.

alphabet

@Cerberus How do we know certain things objectively exist? G.E. Moore proved it.

Mitch

Also, despite some philosophers to the contrary, there is an objective world out there, just it is difficult to determine all the circumstances. Subjectivity is for people who don't know better.

alphabet

You'll never find an argument in favor of relativism or skepticism whose premises will be more obviously true than "I have two hands."

Mitch

04:16

@alphabet unless you're Capn Hook.

Who has no hands at all because he's -fictional-.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, now I must cast away all my preconceptions about you.

@alphabet That looks like a highly advanced theory of proof.

alphabet

@Cerberus Yup. It works.

Mitch

I'm pretty sure some of your preconceived notions about me aren't too far from the truth. But no I'm not a cat.

Cats are effing idiots.

They're just...

Cerberus

Now, now.

Mitch

I don't know how they survive.

Oh actually I do know. By being the Nazis of the backyard, killing for pleasure.

By causing the Holocaust of birds.

alphabet

04:20

That's how you respond to the "How do I know we're not in the Matrix?" argument of Descartes et al. Why would you ever, on the basis of some thought experiment you come up with, reject things so obviously true as "I have hands"? Surely the latter must be more persuasive than the former; they're so clearly accurate that you can use them to refute any argument a skeptic gives you.

Cerberus

@alphabet You can dream about having body parts you lack.

alphabet

@Cerberus Yes, and I'm not dreaming now, and I know I'm not dreaming now, and right now I know I have two hands.

Cerberus

You think that you know.

Until you wake up.

We are trying to wake you up.

alphabet

1. If we live in the Matrix, I wouldn't actually have hands.
2. I actually have hands.
3. Therefore, we don't live in the Matrix.

Cerberus

Make you see the truth, the light.

alphabet

04:23

@Cerberus Yes, but that's irrelevant, since right now I am awake.

Mitch

I mean if you're going to invoke common sense, a lot of the infrastructure of modern academic philosophy just crumbles away, like a bag of crunchy flaming hot Cheetos in a cloth bag on a week long boat trip down the Amazon

Cerberus

@alphabet As strong as a typical proof of the existence of God.

alphabet

@Mitch Yes, that's what I like about G.E. Moore, or at least that paper of his.

Cerberus

@alphabet You're not.

Mitch

@alphabet I'm about unsure about #1

Cerberus

04:24

@Mitch Some academic philosophers reserve an important position for common sensen.

alphabet

@Cerberus Nope. Again: no argument you can give to me will be as obviously correct to me as the fact that I am currently awake.

Cerberus

And yet you are dreaming all that.

Mitch

@alphabet and yet he still got payed to be a professor.

alphabet

Sure, if I were dreaming, I might falsely think that I had three hands, or one. But I'm not dreaming now, and I know I have two hands.

Cerberus

We can see your legs move while you're inside the brain scanner.

Thinking you're running after a trash can.

Mitch

04:25

@Cerberus weirdos

alphabet

No you can't, because that would only work if I were asleep, and I'm not asleep.

Cerberus

But you are.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha! Tickle his feet! See if the Matrix can stop that!

Cerberus

Nahhh we don't want to wake him up.

And realise that he has no hands.

Mitch

@alphabet the scanners are way too noisy.

Cerberus

04:27

But only paws.

Mitch

Oh actually.,.

alphabet

Again: you'll never find any premises more obviously true than "I currently have two hands." If any argument tells me that I don't have two hands, I'll obviously need to reject one of the argument's premises or question its validity, since it makes more sense to reject a questionable claim than an obviously false one.

Yes, I suppose my example should be "I have four paws." I was simplifying things for you humans.

Thanks to G.E. Moore for solving philosophy.

Mitch

I've been in an MRI multiple times for a brain scan (for security purposes) and even though it is super loud, like in the engine room of a steam locomotive (which I have never experienced in this life)) and I just took a nap.

Cerberus

@alphabet Well, that is not true.

It isn't obviously true.

alphabet

(I've read the paper that argument's from and find it quite straightforwardly correct.)

Mitch

04:30

@alphabet I think the Matrix would have thought of giving you two hands.

alphabet

@Cerberus Yes it is. I just held up a paw right now. I can see it and everything. Same with my other three paws. So I have four paws.

Cerberus

@Mitch Can you wear ear plugs to protect your ears?

@alphabet Then how can you type so fast?

alphabet

I mean, duh, it didn't take me any effort to observe this obvious truth.

Cerberus

WHY DON'T YOU COME HANG OUT INSIDE MY HOUSE. WE CAN COOK BREAD AND CHAT ABOUT OUR INTERNAL SKELETONS.

I'm getting spider vibes.

Mitch

@Cerberus yes. I don't remember but little plastic ear plugs, the ones that are squishy and expand a bit, they probably have them.

Cerberus

04:33

OK makes sense.

How was security assured by putting you in a scanner?

Mitch

To check for any devices.

alphabet

@Mitch They gave me all these warnings about how to deal with claustrophobia and I also half fell asleep.

Mitch

@alphabet exactly.

But to be honest I can totally see how it can be bad if you're claustrophobic.

Xanne

@Mitch Where did they think you may have acquired devices?

Mitch

Or rather for any normal person. I kept wondering how if something were to 'go wrong' how to scooch out of there using just wriggling with my elbows and ankles to move

But then I fell asleep.

It was a Head MRI, so I suspect teeth, sinuses, and maybe ear canal?

alphabet

04:38

My latest neurologist decided I needed a new MRI because her hospital's MRI machines are apparently way, way better than anyone else's.

But nope, they still haven't tracked down what's going on in there.

Mitch

I don't think devices can be inserted so easily into brain ventricles without you noticing new bare spots on your scalp.

Xanne

So, maybe your dentist?

Mitch

@alphabet I suspect not

alphabet

@Mitch There was some complicated explanation she gave me. Apparently the magnets are better? I don't know.

Mitch

@Xanne dental X-rays are perfectly safe every other year but a full head X-ray is maybe too much?

I don't know

@alphabet I mean every year there's a new model out. I feel sorry for those suckers from 20 years ago.

They do seem to up the Tesla's every few years, and I suppose more is always better.

Robusto

04:42

@tchrist I feel for you. But don't lose hope. I mean it. There will be a better day.

Mitch

Holy crap, not only do we have to sell our Nazi EVs now but we can't get an MRI without pledging allegiance.

That name has been ruined by shame.

Let's call them Gauss.

alphabet

@Robusto Nope, nope, it's all crap from here on out.

Perhaps calm down on a scenic cruise of the Gulf of America?

Mitch

I hear there's some good crap mixed in with the bad.

alphabet

You know Greenland will have some nice real estate once the glaciers melt.

Mitch

I wonder if some of the ice cap will 'slip' off

It would make a great action/thriller set piece, but in reality I wouldn't want to be in the way.

You know like those videos of people tapping their snowed covered rooves with the end of a snow shovel and the the entire roof slides right off on top of them?

Like that but a mile deep ice pack into the Atlantic.

alphabet

04:57

At least we might keep TikTok while the dictatorship sets in.

Mitch

Silver linings

Dumbest romcom ever

How sweet! Two borderline (figuratively, not the clinical meaning) people meet and complementarily don't need their meds anymore.

As not a doctor of any kind of mental health I suspect thing would not turn out so rosy.

Cerberus