English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

20:13

@Cerberus Yes, it seems too high

Cerberus

@CowperKettle I mean, the Romans would generally know exactly how many men were on a ship, I praesume; but perhaps not centuries later.

Mitch

Unfortunately Google lens is not translating that

> The non-literal use of literally is a well-known usage problem in English, and has been discussed several times on this blog. A comparable discussion for Dutch once again hit the news, so it seems that the issue is ready to enter the arena of Dutch prescriptivism as well.

bridgingtheunbridgeable.com/2025/01/16/…

> Don't take 'literally' too literally Arjen Fortuin comments in his ombudsman column about the use of 'literally' in expressions such as 'I am literally sick of it' (my example). 'Sick' here has a figurative meaning, and so 'literal' here, according to Fortune's reasoning, actually means 'figuratively'.

> But the fact that words have a literal and a figurative meaning also applies to the word 'literal' itself. In its figurative meaning, according to Van Dale, 'literally' no longer means 'as it is written' but 'completely, absolutely'. It has therefore become a degree indicator. You can combine such a degree indicator with any word whose meaning is itself a natural process of meaning expansion.

> Expansion of meaning (metaphor) is a useful means of indicating an infinite number of concepts with a limited vocabulary. For example, we can use 'back' for all kinds of concepts that are reminiscent of the body part 'back', from a mountain ridge to a 1,000 guilder note.

> That is better than entering a new word for each of those meanings. So that's how it is. also went with 'literally'. The degree-indicating use of 'literally' is not new. The Dictionary of the Dutch Language gives examples from the 19th century (she literally hung on the child's lips," writes Hendrik Conscience in 1869). In English it even occurs in the 18th century

People are ~~idiots~~ metaphorical everywhere

Cerberus

Yeah, this issue is old in Dutch, and it is exactly the same as in English.

It may also exist in other languages.

Mitch

The Ancient Egyptians never had such problems.

@Cerberus I have a number of SE questions on the different language sites that confirm it for French, German, and Chinese.

Cerberus

20:29

They may not have had exactly the same issue, but, really, it was hieroglyphically the same as our issue.

@Mitch Chinese!

How is it in Chinese?

Mitch

@Cerberus Chinese.

Cerberus

Oh.

Chinese...

Mitch

Yes. Chinese.

Wait...

maybe not Chinese.

(I mean I may have not done a 'literally' question over at Chinese Language)

6

Q: “Littéralement” non-literally

In English there has been a recent popularization over the questionable use of the word 'literally'. It has been pointed out that it is a common informal usage (often called a mistake) in English of 'literally' as an intensifier rather than as a marker of non-figurative use, especially since it s...

choix-de-mot

5

Q: 'Wörtlich' unwörtlich

In English there has been a recent popularization over the questionable use of the word 'literally'. It has been pointed out that it is a common informal usage (often called a mistake) in English of 'literally' as an intensifier rather than as a marker of non-figurative use, especially since it s...

word-usage metaphor

Oh dang look there -is- one for Chinese...

0

Q: '字面' 非字面, or figurative uses of 'literally'

In English there has been a recent popularization over the questionable use of the word 'literally'. It has been pointed out that it is a common informal usage (often called a mistake) in English of 'literally' as an intensifier rather than as a marker of non-figurative use, especially since it s...

word-choice meaning-in-context

"'literally' no longer means 'as it is written' but 'completely, absolutely'." is literally not how words work. the old meaning didn't stop existing when the new meaning started to be used. The word has now -two- distinct (but pragmatically close) meanings.

Cerberus

20:45

@Mitch Hah, you asked!

Perhaps the word for "characteristically".

Mitch

@Cerberus haha

ha

yeah I just copied what I did for French and German and replaced 'Chinese'

mutatis mutandis, ceteris paribus, ipso facto, e pluribus unum

nolle prosequi

I have to add that to my schtick

@Cerberus hopefully people will understand

Cerberus

*prosequi

Mitch

nolle prosecco

as the Italians like to say

nil per os? nil per orem?

given that if they can read English, they might have familiar translations for literally...which I just don't know.

jlliagre

@CowperKettle Baron believes he'll be chosen to plant the flag on Mars and doesn't seem enthusiastic about the idea.

Mitch

'字面' literally means 'by character' which if you are really literal, is what 'literally' means 'by the letter'

Cerberus

20:53

@Mitch It is possible.

Mitch

@Cerberus Anything is possible.

Except for 'A and not A'

MetaEd

@Mitch It's possible that jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz.

Mitch

I'm pretty sure.

MetaEd

@Mitch If you deny A and not A, then you must also deny neither A nor not A.

Cerberus

@Mitch Are you sure?

MetaEd

20:54

For completeness, I deny A, not A, A and not A, and neither A nor not A.

Mitch

@MetaEd Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow!

1 min ago, by Mitch

I'm pretty sure.

@MetaEd You're denying quite a lot.

narrows eyes

MetaEd

It's the four fruits. The tetralemon.

Mitch

looks askance

sniffs approbriously

Anybody have a tissue?

@MetaEd How exotic! in my fish tank I only have one Tetra grammaton.

I suppose one could assert 'A and -A' but then a lot of interesting things would then follow.

A lot.

MetaEd

@Mitch You could assert Lot's wife also. Both salt and unsalted.

Mitch

Are unsalted Saltines still... you know... legit saltines?

They don't taste as good that's for sure.

You know what the worst thing about shoveling snow is?

It's not the aggravated back spams.

It's not the heart attacks.

It's not the being late to work and already being tired and underfed.

It's that you -had- to do the labor of pushing heavy frozen ice crystals around into huge piles that will soon enough disappear.

Here's a close second in 'worst thing about shoveling snow...

Cleaning the end of your driveway nicely and dare I say almost professionally but -for free-, and then the snow plow drives by and pushes a wall of ice back into your driveway.

Don't take this as a hint that I would shovel your driveway for free.

I would not.

You couldn't afford me.

We've already established what I am. Now we're just haggling about the price.

Robusto

21:39

@GratefulDisciple Everyone always think Mozart is so simple compared to the Romantics, but it's hard as hell to play so lightly and evenly, with almost a naive simplicity.

Hey, it just occurred to me: We didn't get HATS this past holiday season. Is that a first?

MetaEd

@Robusto I think it might be a second.

@Mitch I can tell you the best thing about shoveling snow is living so far south that it never happens.

Araucaria - Him

21:58

@M.A.R. But there's only one loser president there! None of the others presidents there apart from Trump have ever lost an election!

MetaEd

@Mitch (I grew up in Michigan and Iowa and have years of bitter experience with that.)

@Araucaria-Him I don't know what you are talking about. Pretty sure today is Martin Luther King Jr Day Observed.

tchrist

@Araucaria-Him I was thinking of you when I wrote this: :)

PLEASE NOTE that "modern" syntactic analysis in the professional, peer-reviewed linguistics literature now favors descriptive terms for these phrases that focus on function over form, using for example terms like nominal phrase, modifier phrase, and adverbial modifier instead of "traditional" terms like noun phrase, adjective phrase, and adverb phrase which many consider outdated and potentially misleading or confusing. I realize that there's lots of old material out there, and that to most laymen it may seem like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. :) — tchrist ♦ 6 hours ago

Araucaria - Him

@MetaEd That was in response to M.A.R's comment "it's funny watching these past loser presidents act all wisened up." But perchance I misunderstood something.

tchrist

Apparently fin de millénaire is now an established term in English letters, corresponding to the shorter cycle's fin de siècle.

Cerberus

Connections
Puzzle #589
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

I didn't know two of the purples.

Had to think a bit before I got blue.

I might as well just not have known anything about blue, but I happened to know it.

tchrist

22:12

Ug, terrible choice of words! I really was not trying to pretend any false connection between saeculum and κύκλος. HONEST!

Cerberus

@tchrist I wouldn't say 'modern' but rather 'of a specific school of Anglophone linguistics'.

Araucaria - Him

@tchrist You have become one with us ;)

tchrist

@Cerberus I belief that these terms' proponents specifically argue that it's not just for English, and that these may specifically better describe non-English languages than the word-class based terms did. But it's my place to put words in their mouths.

Cerberus

And yet it is a very specific school.

tchrist

@Cerberus I don't believe these originated with H&P, if that's whom you're alluding to.

Cerberus

22:19

It's not that narrow.

tchrist

They're already skating on thin enough ice when trying to meaningfully describe these relations when analysing a language that does not distinguish adjectives from adverbs as a word class.

avoids unconstructive "but adverbs aren't even a real thing" digression :)

Cerberus

Yeah the terminology stuff gets tiring.

MetaEd

@Araucaria-Him I'm just trying to pretend today's only MLK day. It's kind of like Superbowl Sunday which I also like to pretend doesn't happen.

tchrist

@Cerberus Perhaps all post-Chomskian schools then?

Araucaria - Him

@MetaEd Sorry. I'm very short. Easy for stuff to go over my head.

I'd feel exactly the same

tchrist

22:24

@MetaEd That's the thing with all the rose petals joyfully showering all the passing Virgin Mary floats in some tropical city whose name escapes me, right? Something to do with saying goodbye to flesh. Am I right?

Cerberus

@tchrist It may have something to do with that, Chomsky loved randomly changing terminology, didn't he, and introduced utterly obscure new terms.

tchrist

@Araucaria-Him I just had one of the little people do some yard work for me. His head barely cleared my belly button but he was perhaps thrice as strong as I am at only one third my age. You couldn't put something past him except for a fly ball.

@Cerberus Not all of his ideas have aged well, but many have.

Cerberus

I'm sure.

But it is also the way he presented them.

MetaEd

@tchrist It's the day we celebrate Pallas Athena. Superb Owl Sunday.

Cerberus

Better.

tchrist

22:32

@MetaEd When she cosplays as Nemesis the Avenging Fury.

Or maybe Nike. Depends on the sponsorship.

MetaEd

tchrist

Damn it, I meant Tisiphone again and I'm sure she heard me. Now I'm cooked.

Tisn't funny!

Cerberus

Nice tits.

I wonder about the mask on her chest, almost like an actor's face.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Don't offend the owl.

@Cerberus Medusa's head, supposedly.

Cerberus

No, no, the owl is good.

@MetaEd Really?

tchrist

22:38

And here I took it for the owl's nest.

Cerberus

Why does she have it, and why does it have no snake hair?

MetaEd

Medusa

In Greek mythology, Medusa (; Ancient Greek: Μέδουσα, romanized: Médousa, lit. 'guardian, protectress'), also called Gorgo (Ancient Greek: Γοργώ) or the Gorgon, was one of the three Gorgons. Medusa is generally described as a woman with living snakes in place of hair; her appearance was so hideous that anyone who looked upon her was turned to stone. Medusa and her Gorgon sisters Euryale and Stheno were usually described as daughters of Phorcys and Ceto; of the three, only Medusa was mortal. Medusa was beheaded by the Greek hero Perseus, who then used her head, which retained its ability to turn...

Cerberus

Ahh, I see.

Cute.

tchrist

Ceto was a sea monster.

MetaEd

@tchrist Any relation to Sigmund?

tchrist

22:49

Funny how much the forty-fifth and -seventh president invokes Andrew Jackson, isn't it just?

45&7th

Distributives work poorly in English.

No matter how much you pay them.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Me too. Two of the purple I only know after coming to America.

Connections
Puzzle #589
🟩🟦🟩🟩
🟦🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟩🟩🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Cerberus

Ah I suppose this one had a lot of traps!

MetaEd

@Cerberus Blue is pretty US-centric. Purple was actually pretty easy though. However I can see how it might be a bit US-centric too

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Ugh. I don't have that problem, but the street in front of me is slippery.

@Robusto I took a few lessons from the said Japanese piano major to learn how to play exactly like her, and discovered that all is in minute planning, so similar to how I plan out every note when playing Bach on the pipe organ, except the touch is of course pianistic. It's easier than you think as long as you know exactly what you want to produce, both musically (every slur and individual notes) and muscle-ly.

Maybe it's similar to flute too; what comes out effortlessly to those who cannot play flute (like me) has been planned to death by the flutist.

Cerberus

23:05

@MetaEd As to blue, ~~SPOILER~~

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Same with me.

Cerberus

As to purple, I don't know ~~SPOILER~~

@GratefulDisciple Yay.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus You guess the 2nd correctly. For the first, it's best to simply google it. For the 3rd is basically the same as spoiler

Cerberus

I know what the third is. It is just not a term I would ever use.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus It's common in USA in both neutral & negative sense.

Cerberus

23:13

Right.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…