English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

GratefulDisciple

18:04

@Cerberus I also have DeepL translates several paragraphs from this article, and while Google Translate does a decent enough job, the DeepL translation to Indonesian is slightly more idiomatic.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple OK then it is the same as it has been for the past couple of years.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus But if the newly announced Meta product is not yet deployed to GT, I'd like to retest when it is. I have a feeling they would deploy it to Google Assistant first (that takes speech as input).

Cerberus

What do you mean by "deployed to GT"?

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Thanks for your input (also here). I'm just wondering whether minimalism or the perceived incompatibility between science's God and religious God has been the result of that 500 year secularization since Reformation (thus a cultural effect) rather than a more substantive incompatibility, but that's discussion for another day. Other atheists pose a very different difficulty: problem of evil or problem of hiddenness.

@Cerberus The announcement has to do with an internal product they develop. It doesn't say whether they have improved Google Translate (unless I miss something from the news).

@Cerberus The word certainly has changed in meaning, but it came from Greek apologia (ἀπολογία), that the apostles used in the New Testament as a "defense" in a trial (Acts 26:2) or in "giving an answer" to an inquiry for why Christians have hope in the midst of suffering/persecution (1 Peter 3:15) (see Etymology). Only later it seems to be associated with giving answers to difficulties regarding a religion.

jlliagre

18:27

@Cerberus Yes. The idioms translations are not technically wrong per se but unidiomatic in French. In any case, it's enough to understand what was said.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Can you replace "deployed to GT" by other words, to make me understand what it means?

@GratefulDisciple The word is much older than that.

Plato is a bit bigger qua literary influence.

But it is now typically used for those who try to defend something controversial.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus "deployed to GT" would make sense to IT people, as we say "deploy to production" a lot when a new version of a software is released for public use (or for corporate use) after a season of testing. Not using IT jargon I would say: "But if GT has not yet taken advantage of the technology inherent in the new product they just announced...."

Cerberus

And what is GT then?

I thought it possibly meant Google Translate?

How could Google Translate take advantage of Facebook's software?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Google Translate, Google's public service for language translations. I use GT because I saw @M.A.R. used it here.

@Cerberus Oh, my mistake (embarrassed emoji). In my mind Alpha = Meta. Shows you how I don't use Facebook or other Meta products. Or I'm getting old :-( .

Cerberus

Alpha?

GratefulDisciple

18:35

@Cerberus I mean Alphabet, Google's parent company. I'm definitely getting old.

Cerberus

Ah OK, I think I get it.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Sorry for the confusion.

Cerberus

So you thought Google Translate was owned by the Facebook company because of their super confusing changing naming schemes

I would never say "Meta" or "Alphabet"!

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus No, when I see "Meta" I thought it was talking about Google's parent company.

Cerberus

Just say Facebook and Google.

@GratefulDisciple Yeah, something like that.

GratefulDisciple

18:36

@Cerberus That's what I do as well. But the news headline says "Meta". Don't blame me :-)

Cerberus

I don't.

That's what I hate those stupid companies.

I never follow their ugly naming schemes, just keep using their original names.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I didn't mean the word originated from the apostles, of course, but in Christian context, that's how that word was used in the beginning, because in early centuries Christians didn't enjoy the legal protections that the Romans afforded Judaism.

Cerberus

The only thing Greek apologia makes me think of is Plato.

So I think that is the most well known ancient use of the word.

But anyway.

It doesn't matter.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus How much Paul knew of Plato's corpus would be interesting to me, along with the senses that he would use critical Greek words in his own writing. That's a huge area of ongoing research in Biblical studies.

@Cerberus So to recap, you would consider Hitchens to be atheism proponent, not apologist. How about "defender" or "evangelist"?

Cerberus

Every educated person knew Plato.

Robusto

18:43

@GratefulDisciple He was hardly an evangelist. But he was an atheist, steadfast to the end.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Evangelist, yes.

Defender: he seems more like an attacker.

Of course evangelist has some nice irony in it.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hardly. Evangelists proselytize, Hitchens didn't.

Cerberus

No?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus The two first words that came to mind when I hear Plato are "dialog" and "form".

Cerberus

Yes, so...

Apology (Plato)

The Apology of Socrates (Ancient Greek: Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους, Apología Sokrátous; Latin: Apologia Socratis), written by Plato, is a Socratic dialogue of the speech of legal self-defence which Socrates (469–399 BC) spoke at his trial for impiety and corruption in 399 BC. Specifically, the Apology of Socrates is a defence against the charges of "corrupting the youth" and "not believing in the gods in whom the city believes, but in other daimonia that are novel" to Athens (24b). Among the primary sources about the trial and death of the philosopher Socrates, the Apology of Socrates is the dialogue that...

Robusto

18:46

Hitchens treated his audience the same way Frank Zappa did: confrontation bordering on contempt. "How dare you even approve of what I do!"

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Nothing. Just when I see apologia I associate more with a certain specialization in Christianity for defending our faith, which has even become the name of a course in seminary, or even a job title.

Cerberus

OK, well, either way, defence against an attack would seem closer to the current use of apologist?

The King is not the apologist of the Dutch nation.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto I only saw Hitchens in video once; and I was struck by his vehemence against religion.

Cerberus

OK maybe not the best example hehe.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I was going to say :-)

Robusto

18:49

@GratefulDisciple You should see what he had to say about "Mother Theresa" ...

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto I think that's the video I saw, about Mother Teresa receiving contributions from despicable people who "laundered" their money in exchange for respectability.

Robusto

@Cerberus I think of apologist in the sense of one who tries to explain or find excuses for a certain position or person.

@GratefulDisciple He hated hypocrisy.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus So, very similar to the early centuries then, because early Christians were regularly mocked if not persecuted or forced to worship the emperor on pain of death. Tertullian would be one early Latin apologist.

@Robusto Which is good. I don't blame him. He has substantive things to say for Christian apologists to be busy.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, but generally for something controversial, no?

@GratefulDisciple Sure.

Robusto

@Cerberus Sure. Now think of all the apologists who leap to defend Trump's crimes.

GratefulDisciple

18:56

@Robusto That would dirty the name "apologist"; I would call them "gullible duped" or something along those lines.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Duped, perhaps, when not cynically supportive.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto It's depressing to contemplate how they came to do that. I'm not going to waste my brain cells right now, just waiting for the term to be used in an article / book I will (for sure) come across.

alphabet

Is it even cynical? They seem to hold their political beliefs for more or less the same kinds of reasons that anybody does.

Robusto

@alphabet Think Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel, Rupert Murdoch, et al.

alphabet

@Robusto Ah, those people, yes.

GratefulDisciple

19:01

@Robusto I would put them in a very different category than mindless T**** followers. They know what they are doing.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple My point exactly. Not the duped ones, they.

GratefulDisciple

A third category would be the talking heads at Fox News, etc.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple They are paid by Murdoch to do that.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto I would distinguish them since they make a living off the lies they spout. Oh.... I may have misunderstood your original reference. In my mind I was thinking of regular jill / joe who could be my neighbors, who usually only finish high school.

alphabet

Certainly I don't think your typical Trump voter is much more mindless than your typical Harris voter (unless you just mean they have less educational attainment on average).

GratefulDisciple

19:05

@alphabet Yes, that's what I mean. What bothers me the most is their propensity to pass on what they hear without fact checking.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Haven't you heard? Fact-checking is so 2012.

GratefulDisciple

Anyway, I'll try not to be depressed. Gotta cheer up and do work. Have a good day y'all.

@Robusto So people have given up fact checking?

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I don't think most liberals fact check their sources any more than conservatives do. They just read sources that are more factually accurate, most of the time.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Meta says it will end fact checking as Silicon Valley prepares for Trump

X has already destroyed any semblance of fact-checking as well.

alphabet

Though media bias usually comes in the form of large shifts in emphasis rather than outright unqualified falsehoods.

GratefulDisciple

19:10

@alphabet I see. At least their reality is constructed from more trustworthy sources. I'm just depressed at the ecosystem of falsehood pervading conservatives: so powerful and available, requiring much more energy to fight them.

@Robusto Supporting my point ^^^ exactly.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple But what you said made it seem like you didn't know about that: "So people have given up fact checking?"

BTW, I think it is accurate to say Hitchens was a non-apologist for atheism.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto I don't follow. I know that the "gullible dupes" (the regular joe/jill) are not doing it. But mainstream conservative newspapers still do.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Dream on.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I think there's a fair gap between the intellectual classes and the typical Harris voter, with the former being much more well-informed.

Robusto

@alphabet So it was the intellectual classes who made Trump II possible.

GratefulDisciple

19:17

@Robusto Oh well, guess I need to read both sides more purposefully. By "conservative newspaper" I'm talking about WSJ, Bloomberg, National Post (Canadian).

Gotta go. TTYL.

alphabet

A (slight) majority of Harris voters don't have college degrees; if all the Harris voters you know are college graduates, you don't have a representative sample.

(Doing the math based on the CNN exit polls, it's 50.4% of her voters. Granted, that might be off because some of her voters are currently in college.)

Robusto

@alphabet Let me rephrase: So it was the people who were too smart to be taken in by Harris who made Trump II possible.

All I can say is this: Enjoy, motherfuckers.

alphabet

@Robusto Sorry, which people are you talking about?

Robusto

9 mins ago, by alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I think there's a fair gap between the intellectual classes and the typical Harris voter, with the former being much more well-informed.

Perhaps I missed the point you were making.

alphabet

@Robusto My point was that most Harris voters chose her, not because they were particularly educated and well-informed, but for various other reasons--their communities, broader cultural trends, what news sources they consume, etc.

Robusto

19:29

@alphabet I chose her because she wasn't Trump. So did everyone I know.

Dannyu NDos

A maelstrom, we are in, don't we?

alphabet

@Robusto My point stands. Most people who dislike Trump don't do so because they rationally deduced from first principles that it would be ethically better to oppose him.

Robusto

@alphabet Maybe you should see how many angels can dance on the head of your point.

alphabet

In other words: their methods for reaching conclusions about politics aren't intrinsically more reliable than the methods conservatives use (and in fact they're often basically identical).

Robusto

Wevs. I have constructive things to do now.

Dannyu NDos

19:35

I hope Trump learnt science after then.

alphabet

I need to get some beauty sleep while the humans put their trash cans out.

Lambie

Would someone please answer my question which wasn't answered: Why do some people's points show up on all their sites as a total number, and in my case, this total number does not show up on a particular site? What sleight of hand must one use to have that total show up?

Mitch

@alphabet is -anybody- a rational decider starting from first principles?

We can be very rational but usually after the fact.

@Robusto I'm pretty sure the answer there is 'a lot's

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question (93): Can I say restive to mean restful?‭ by Green Collect‭ on english.SE

Dannyu NDos

Nov 8, 2024 at 0:24, by Dannyu NDos

I don't trust Trump after he suggested injecting disinfectants against COVID.

SmokeDetector

19:48

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (74): Restive to mean restful?‭ by Green Collect‭ on english.SE

Dannyu NDos

I mean this. The absurdness of US' education ruined the president also.

Compare that to South Korean education to see how my country became the most developed country in Asia.

jlliagre

20:17

@Cerberus The number of tries is unlimited.

Robusto

21:51

Trump II: No More Mr. Nice Guy

alphabet

'Long as he gives us back our TikToks.

Robusto

Are Programmers Obsolete? Will AI Replace Them?

►

alphabet

Trump to allow TikTok again as long as they ban the "evil woke Palestinian communists"

CowperKettle

I thought it was "Attack of the Clones"

Robusto

@Cerberus ^^^

CowperKettle

22:24

> “is your year off to a good start?”
me: ▶︎ •၊၊||၊|။||||။၊|။|||။|||။၊| 53:01

> We find that people have a bias towards reuse, beyond the reuse that naturally occurs when minimizing program length. Drawing from theories of word learning, we account for this by modeling participants' program-writing as if they were creating & using an action grammar. x.com/_cgcorrea/status/1757430961526972610

CowperKettle

23:03

2024 South Korean medical crisis

The 2024 South Korean medical crisis is an ongoing healthcare crisis following the announcement of new government policies that would significantly increase medical student admission quotas. Thousands of residents and interns have since resigned, resulting in medical school professors working to cover. This forced non-urgent, less complicated patients to no longer be treated at tertiary care facilities, leading to financial concerns at large university hospitals, as well as public anxiety about timely treatment. The healthcare system struggles with doctor shortages, overworked staff, low re...

> Examples include Chungnam Seosan medical center being unable to hire enough radiologists despite offering an annual salary of 420 million won (about $300,000)[11] with 4.5 working days per week.

> Half of American doctors work no more than approximately 60 hours weekly, while Koreans commonly exceed 100 hours.

O_O

> Half of American doctors work no more than approximately 60 hours weekly, while Koreans commonly exceed 100 hours.

Word of 04:10 am: Pinocchio syndrome - a man with a brain tumor was having seizures every time he uttered a lie. pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1015158

alphabet

> According to the Korea Intern Resident Association, interns and residents have 36-hour shifts, while the United States has less than 24-hour ones

I do not want to see a doctor who is currently on the 35th hour of their shift.

CowperKettle

23:34

Ketamine and schizophrenia shifts perception to “external mode”

> Perception integrates external sensory signals with internal predictions that reflect prior knowledge about the world. [...] This NMDAR-dependent increase in the external mode suggests that the symptoms of schizophrenia are caused by recurring dissociations of perception from prior knowledge about the world.

Curious. When I was particularly afraid to open personal messages and letters, I explained it to my frend by the phrase "I cannot upload the context", meaning I was failing to get the previous experience with this particular person(s) into my working memory, which scared me.

Like in a computer game, when you want to enter the next level, but there's something with your hard drive, and it keeps displaying the "Loading.." message.

When I tried to open a letter or messaging app, my mind tried to upload previous experience with this person, but instead of that, there was some garbage appearing, like random bits of songs from a cartoon, this kind of thing.

Cerberus

@Robusto Merci, will watch.

@jlliagre Yeahh but it's not fun to try random words when you don't see anything yet!

Do I know the things in the puzzle?

jlliagre

@Cerberus Robusto got two of them in a few minutes.

Cerberus

@jlliagre He knows a lot more than I do.

So that means it is about things he knows but not I?

jlliagre

No everyone can guess these two.

Cerberus

Ok!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…