@GratefulDisciple Nice!

@GratefulDisciple Yellow was hard for you.

@Robusto Yeah, I only know 2 right off the bat and have to google the other 2 candidates. And the purple is similar and is as difficult as an NYT puzzle.

@GratefulDisciple Yeah, I was kinda proud of that one. ^_^

All in all, probably an uneven puzzle.

@Robusto Feels similar to an NYT though, so it's quite fair. One of the purple is a new word for me, but I know the other 3.

Thanks.

Would I know yellow?

@Cerberus Might be a tough one for you in that group.

OK I see.

I'll admit that I have been multitasking, but I don't see yellow or purple yet.

I see some pairs that I can connect, but then can't find third, let alone a last.

@CowperKettle That is pretty good, what proportion of India's total use of electricity is now non-polluting?

And what proportion of its total energy use?

@jlliagre nice color pattern though

I did my best :-)

@Robusto OK for yellow, I immediately thought of two, but the other two I just didn't know.

@Cerberus You've probably never read much Joyce then.

@jlliagre Try mine (above).

Alas, I have not.

@Robusto "Intelligence" here doesn't mean smartness, but cognizant of the perfect order of a particular society. When combined with virtues in a ruler (i.e. not power hungry, not corrupt, for example), enables him/her to exercise justice and to take the right steps toward perfecting such society so it can provide the environment suitable for "the pursuit of happiness" by the maximum number of people. Thus "evil genius dictator" is ruled out from consideration.

This idea doesn't necessarily imply a "philosopher king" because 2 of the "correct" form presume that enough number of citizens are predisposed to elect Senator/MPs to rule over them collectively. But yes, this is NOT scalable, maybe good for a town government.

As to purple, there was one word I didn't know, but either way I don't think I would ever have thought of that connection...

I'm also more persuaded of Hobbes' social contract theory and American style checks and balance. Still, Aristotle's idea seems sound for me to elect an American MP/President/Senator/justice who is educated in public policy, has good character, and knows enough of society he/she represents.

@Robusto So which one is from Joyce? I looked up SPOILER, and it appears to be a SPOILER, so probably that?

@GratefulDisciple Unfortunately, the flip side of election is the electorate. As you can see from recent American history, sometimes those people fail the philosopher king and elect the village idiot instead.

@Cerberus Yup, that one.

OK, yeah, I had not heard of it.

Nice puzzle, all in all!

Though Yellow and purple were a bit too difficult for me.

@Cerberus Yeah, I probably made those two too difficult, and the others too easy.

@Robusto That's what I'm currently trying. At the moment, I have a dubious group of three and thirteen groups of one.

@jlliagre ;-)

Maybe the green one was a bit easy because the terms immediately look to be of a similar kind independent of meaning?

But still not bad.

@Robusto Of course. But I wouldn't fault Aristotle for that, but another implicit assumption that could make it work that does NOT hold true today: liberal education for the masses. For the citizens need to be virtuous too, though not to the same extent as the rulers. So if education of the masses has failed, I agree with you that Aristotle's idea is not working for us.

I have come to learn that people hate me less when my puzzle is too easy, compared to too hard.

@Cerberus Are you saying they still hate you to some extent with a too-easy puzzle? ^_^

@Robusto Possibly!

But people are too polite to say so.

@Robusto Surely you've read enough of the Politics to understand that Aristotle's view does not amount to "put the most intelligent man in charge."

That quote is, you'll note, quite poorly sourced. Good enough for Wikipedia, though.

@alphabet I grabbed it because I didn't want to search long and hard. That's the Wikipedia promise.

@alphabet I traced down the quote to a partial reconstruction of a lost Aristotle work: Protrepticus, though when I read the Editorial note for the quote (page 23), it's still representative of Aristotle's thought.

@Robusto Ha ha ha! On my first guess, I got the green one right but with a totally unrelated reasoning.

As for intelligence, it's probably a good enough translation for what Aristotle meant, given that he lived when he did and thought it to be made up of more qualities than we ascribe to it today.

@jlliagre Hey, sometimes you have to get lucky!

Nothing wrong with that.

@GratefulDisciple Excerpts from works that don't survive in full should be treated with caution--they are quite often mangled and misrepresented in various ways. You only rely on them when you have no other sources for an author's views--and in this case we have an excellent one, the Politics itself!

@Robusto Maybe "wise" would be a better translation (despite not a literal translation)? Anyway, when appropriating a philosopher's thought I think most (including myself) "pick and choose" as long we don't violate the essential thinking pattern, only discarding some conclusions / assumptions (like not depending on slavery but ensuring every one of voting age to pass high school, for example). And not just high school, but a curriculum that includes the ideals of democracy.

@alphabet Agreed. To be used in that Wikipedia section, the author (or revisor) should have quoted from Politics.

@Robusto Spoiler

@GratefulDisciple Yes, which gets into the projection of ideals in ways that simply don't work. Yes, it would be nice to live in a perfect world (maybe). But unfortunately we're stuck with the real one.

@Robusto As I mentioned: Aristotle is very easy to misinterpret for people who haven't studied large parts of the whole corpus. Isolated excerpts will tell you very little about his project.

@Robusto For 2025 America, I agree. We're not ready for that ideal. Unfortunately, it seems we have regressed. Now is the Machiavellian world.

@alphabet I've studied enough of Aristotle to know what he's about. Also, I grew up Catholic and endured a Catholic prep school where Aristotle and Aquinas were very much in view.. Does that help?

@jlliagre Creative.

@jlliagre That didn't occur to me!

@Robusto Which is why I'm intrigued on why you "rebelled" :-) I find the Thomist worldview quite persuasive for a personal (not political) worldview. Makes me wonder what happened.

Anyway, I'll try to read more from Russell' History of Western Philosophy. I may not agree fully with some of his narratives, though in the Introduction most are largely plausible (no glaring misrepresentation, discounting his omissions), including his insights into the linkage between Anabaptist and subjectivism (though he necessarily use a broad brush).

@Robusto I'm not sure what view you're attributing to Aristotle, but it certainly doesn't sound like the normal scholarly interpretation.

@Robusto (BTW my dad was Catholic in high school, run by the Jesuits)

@alphabet The Catholic interpretation "Christianize" Aristotle, following Aquinas (such as non-eternal world) who adopted Aristotle for his own purpose for the Church; that's the extent of the "distortion", but many of his core ideas remain intact.

@GratefulDisciple Read his sections on Aristotle and Aquinas, the latter especially.

@alphabet Well, it really sounds like you're looking for a fight. That's your third ad hominem in a row. Believe what you wish about me.

@GratefulDisciple I can't say I've read it myself, but I do recall a professor saying extremely negative things about it, that it's mostly a polemic intended to justify his own views and a deeply unfair assessment of those who disagree with him.

The Wikipedia page on it actually goes into some of the negative reception that that book attracted from academia.

> Leo Roberts wrote that while Russell was a deft and witty writer, A History of Western Philosophy was perhaps the worst of Russell's books. In his view, Russell was at his best when dealing with contemporary philosophy, and that in contrast "his treatment of ancient and medieval doctrines is nearly worthless."

That's pretty much what I heard.

@Robusto Sorry if I came across as insulting you personally. Not my intention.

@GratefulDisciple Yeah, I deleted that part of my message since it was oversimplifying things a great deal.

@alphabet That's pretty much a given; I don't expect a good objective history of philosophy from an early modern self-professed logical positivist whose main contribution is in mathematics and logic. He's a creature of his time, the heyday of analytic philosophy that is inherently anti-metaphysics and clouded by deep distrust of dogma. Also, his concerns lie more toward politics; that much is obvious from the Introduction (and from what I heard from my dad).

@alphabet Then I guess I was wrong and it must be a worthless tome, based on the vote of one person from your recollection and "some of the negative" reviews you read in Wikipedia, which just minutes ago you disparaged.

@Robusto I got the blues :-)

@jlliagre Always a positive step!

@jlliagre Oh, no!

But despite reading with "a grain of salt", Russell is good writer, and must have some good insights, ESPECIALLY political connection with the Church and with religion. Maybe it's like reading Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire which has been criticized by scholars as well, BUT YET gives one a good story.

That might be an apt comparison.

@Robusto I'm surprised Russell won Nobel Prize in Literature; quote from the award ceremony in the link. His Nobel Prize lecture is here: What Desires Are Politically Important?.

I have to admit that I remember comparatively little of Aristotle, even though he is The Philosopher and I did my BA mainly in ancient philosophy.

@Cerberus You did! That's great. Looking forward to discuss that topic with you. The Pre-socratic philosophers are under-appreciated. Did the BA cover non-western ancient philosophies as well?

Nope!

I think those are fairly unconnected to European philosophy.

@Cerberus Of course. But the academia has been wonderful in researching those topics in the past few decades.

I also studied history, of which history not connected to Europe was also a very small part, although for that you don't need an entirely different frame of reference.

I did write two essays on China.

@Cerberus That's more than I know about my blood heritage :-).

@GratefulDisciple No doubt, but they are hard to connect to European philosophy. So it would be a kind of island within the programme. It is possible.

Your 'blood heritage' was Chinese?

A friend of mine is of Chinese-Indonesian descent.

@Cerberus Yeah, it would have been too much. Maybe it's part of Asian studies or ANE studies.

Yes, no doubt.

What is ANE?

@Cerberus Yup, and yes, I'm Chinese-Indonesian too, although the Indonesian part is quite thin now after living in America for so long.

Do you know when your ancestors moved to Indonesia?

That may have been very long ago?

@Cerberus Ancient Near Eastern: studying ancient Mesopotamia, Persia, Anatolia, Levant, and Egypt. So the philosophy would be a good background for interpreting the Old Testament wisdom books.

Hmm but that would not really be connected to East Asia much?

@Cerberus My great grandfather migrated to Indonesia in the beginning of the 20th century.

@Cerberus As @tchrist pointed out, the terminology is out of whack. You're right, nothing to do with East Asia and neither with India.

@GratefulDisciple Hmm and yet you don't feel Indonesian very much any more?

@GratefulDisciple I took a class in ancient Chinese philosophy. Interesting, but presumably to gain real expertise in it I'd need to learn Chinese, which...look, ancient Greek was hard enough.

How is your Greek?

@Cerberus One cannot erase 18-years of education to an impressionable kid. Still like Indonesian food, still know the Indonesian civic ideals / patriotism, still understand and speak the language (to my family members). But everything else is either Western or superseded by Western things.

I haven't used it in several years and I was never great at it.

So bad.

@alphabet Unfortunately, yes. But I think there are now many good and reliable secondary books, making learning Chinese less necessary (other than a few critical terms). It's still in my to do list.

@GratefulDisciple Your family and traditions must be very Indonesian in addition to Chinese?

@alphabet Alas!

Could you still pass a high-school exam?

@Cerberus Doubt it. In Latin I hope I could.

@Cerberus I think I mentioned this before: my dad and my mom were very much Westernized as they grew up. They were very fluent in Dutch and English. That's why my dad was exposed to Bertrand Russell's writings, and my mom knew more American literature than Indonesian. And like me, almost no Chinese heritage (except food and a little bit Confucianism).

I took Latin classes for many years but, again, haven't used it in so long that I wouldn't rate my skills too highly.

Both of my parents immigrated to America around the same time I did. I was even exposed to American politics through my dad (who loves politics).

Gotta go, talk to you guys later.

@alphabet Latin is also pretty impressive.

@GratefulDisciple Ah, OK, I see.

Maybe you did mention that but I'm not sure.

@GratefulDisciple At what age was that?

@jlliagre Oh, better than mine!

@Cerberus Thanks to a miracle.

I doubt it!

Why don't you make a puzzle yourself for us?

@Cerberus I will. I have to think a little about it though.

Good!

A puzzle could even be independent of language.

Depend on other connections.

That will be tough and require some time, though.

@Cerberus Decem, si recte memini.