English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:06

Connections
Puzzle #582
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jlliagre

00:41

Connections
Puzzle #582
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Yay!

tchrist

Why have people forgotten how to use whose?

0

A: Is this sentence ungrammatical? "She wrote a book(,) of which I chose the name." If so, why?

Use whose No, these should be using the genitive pronoun, whose: She wrote a book whose name I chose. He came up with a plan whose purpose I don't understand. See how much more elegant and natural that is? Note that we use whose as a relative pronoun no matter whether its antecedent happens to ...

Xanne

01:26

@tchrist Maybe not forgotten, but learned to avoid. “The boy whose bike is broken” vs. “The boy who’s a jerk.” When in danger of perilous error, avoid, recast, escape.

Anyway, the “of which” construction doesn’t strike me as wrong—maybe less elegant, but not wrong.

tchrist

@Xanne So the same impulse that's given us the execrable from my wife and I?

@Xanne updated, thanks.

Xanne

01:42

@tchrist Maybe. Pronouns are really so screwed up now. “Me and him went to the movies.”

Robusto

@tchrist Or who say they're going to "hone in on" something.

tchrist

@Xanne At least that one's not a casualty of misplaced hypercorrection.

Xanne

This pronoun stuff is in such flex—hypercorrection being

Sorry, tried to edit and messed it up.

tchrist

@EdwinAshworth No, this is the confusion that arises when people lack the moral courage to use whose correctly. — tchrist ♦ Nov 15, 2023 at 23:21

Xanne

@tchrist Exactly, lack of moral courage. The basic rule of avoiding grievous error: When in doubt, get out.

This is the Lawler rule on the use of “whom”: Don’t.

tchrist

01:57

I did not down-vote, but this doesn't answer the question. Of course I can use "whose". The question is whether or not the sentence is ungrammatical and for any insight as to why. — Cayce Evans 7 mins ago

@CayceEvans It is difficult to categorically proclaim something is or is not grammatical when acceptability varies so much across native speakers as this does. If it sounds ungrammatical to you, who are clearly a native speaker, then that data point cannot be discarded no matter what else you may discover grammar books saying about it. — tchrist ♦ 49 secs ago

Cerberus

02:08

@tchrist People are/were taught not to use whose to refer to the inanimate.

Xanne

I seem to recall that myself. People tried to use “which’s” but teachers ended that quickly.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Wow!

jlliagre

@Cerberus The purple, I wouldn't have guess but the other ones were far easier than the previous days.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Hmm not necessarily easier for me!

I did get the purple when it alone was left.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Even with the solution, I had to lookup all the words to figure it out. Only two of them have a match in French.

Cerberus

02:22

C'est la vie.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Spoiler

Cerberus

@jlliagre In Dutch, <Spoiler>. By the way, the <Spoiler> I had never heard of.

Vikas

02:54

@GratefulDisciple 👍🏽 I like the dark mode and white text. Wish android phones had a way to change dark node to some other color (like dark blue, gray, blue-grey etc.). Default dark mode is pure dark.

alphabet

@Xanne I believe the correct form is "witches."

As in: "That's the car witches problems need fixing."

It's really that simple.

Sheriff's deputy murders raccoon accused of crime in act of police brutality; raccoon had no due process or legal representation before execution

tchrist

03:12

@Cerberus But that's only for the interrogative pronoun, not the relative pronoun.

@Xanne You've always been able to use whose for a relative pronoun no matter the animacy: The table whose surface I've just ruined. By the same token, you've never been able to use whose as an interrogative pronoun unless it's requesting an animate as the answer: Whose billfold is this? is fine, but Whose surface have I just ruined? cannot be taken to solicit an inanimate response like the table's; only an animate response is allowed, so like my mother’s.

Perhaps people misunderstood the distinction.

Hardly the first time. All stupid hypercorrections are based on misunderstandings.

CowperKettle

Good morning.

tchrist

@CowperKettle What are they saying?

Are you simply saying that pied piping often comes off as awkward? Once that's undone and the constructions restored to typical conversational order like The strawberries I bought a bowl of and The house I asked for directions at, doesn't the pied piper's inherent awkwardness evaporate? — tchrist ♦ 44 secs ago

CowperKettle

03:33

@tchrist Probably something very simple

Cerberus

@tchrist Isn't, but is taught.

A common myth.

Xanne

03:47

@tchrist Interesting; a distinction that perhaps deserves to be in the abswer.

Even Copilot knows “whose” is okay for inanimate objects.

CowperKettle

04:03

Even mushrooms know that.

Xanne

And they tell each other!

tchrist

Mushrooms whose words communicate things seem...animate.

Xanne

06:28

The Santa Ana winds are kicking up tonight and making the Los Angeles fires harder to control. It’s an enormous disaster that’s far from over.

Xanne

06:46

The winds become strong at night; a veritable witching hour.

Xanne

08:28

Wordle 1,304 3/6

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HippoSawrUs

10:27

@Robusto I laughed out loud. Would've spit tea through my nose; not expecting that.

Brilliant

He could work for Little Tikes and test drive the Cozy Coupe.

People would ask if he were a child and then notice his tie and Flintstone-mobile skills.

Vikas

11:31

@Xanne Has the fire reached even the main city (where skyscrapers are)? or it's outside?

GratefulDisciple

12:09

@jlliagre Wow, no mistakes. I had a few:

Connections
Puzzle #582
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Araucaria - Him

12:25

Anyone got any idea where the following lines come from?:

"Yet for each in the heart of the downpour hangs
The gleaming point on which it stops"

It's from this question here:

1

Q: What is the subject noun in this sentence - what is the 'it' referring to?

I'm tired and have lost all perspective. x) Would someone be able to tell me what the 'it' that stops in the following sentence is (or if the sentence even makes sense grammatically)? Yet for each in the heart of the downpour hangs The gleaming point on which it stops - Any help would be greatl...

Xanne says in a comment underneath that it's from Rain by Robert Frost. But I can't find the couplet anywhere on the web, and nor can I find any reference to Frost having written a poem called "Rain"!

tchrist

13:36

Alban Lusitanae, Portugal

159 3

adjectives auxiliary-verbs ellipses expressions grammaticality hyphenation nouns

Seems like his username is a coded reference to being some "Portuguese White Guy". :)

Or girl. Unclear.

tchrist

13:48

@Araucaria-Him I poked around but couldn't find its source either.

jlliagre

tchrist

Xanne's in UTC-0800 so is usually on later.

@jlliagre An hallucination?

jlliagre

@tchrist ChatGPT had two of them...

tchrist

A pair of hallucinations?

jlliagre

Yes.

tchrist

13:51

ChatGPT all but never admits to not knowing the answer to something. Instead it just hallucinates its advice confidently.

jlliagre

Yes. That's its typical "behavior".

tchrist

Because, of course, it learned from real people, and that's what most real people also do.

zverina.com/bestbooks/poem-online-rain.htm

Not there, either.

But you'd think it would be.

> Rain
from Asphodel: That Greeny Flower and Other Love Poems
by William Carlos Williams

The Minds randomly assign its creation to 1930 or 1948.

poetryfoundation.org/poems/51549/the-great-figure

So many not-answers.

poets.org/poem/spring-storm

Or 1923. It makes up a different year every time you ask it.

> To provide context, here are the lines immediately preceding and following the quoted lines:

Preceding Lines: “I am not sure what I am saying.
I am not sure what I am saying.”

Following Lines: “And yet,
It is a thing that will happen.”

These lines contribute to the overall theme of perception and experience within nature, particularly focusing on rain as a metaphor for deeper emotional or existential reflections.

Self reference. :)

Isn't that "I am not sure what I am saying" hilarious!

> Summary

Poem Title: The Rain
Author: William Carlos Williams
Date Written: 1936
Publisher: New Directions Publishing
City Published: New York City
Preceding Lines: “All the rain that falls / Falls for you.”
Following Lines: “Yet for each in the heart of the downpour hangs / The gleaming point on which it stops -“
Pronoun Reference: “It” refers to “the downpour.”
Probability that this answer is correct: 95%

It always says 95%, which is of course more hallucination.

Robusto

14:16

@HippoSawrUs Yes. What I meant was, the line was not particularly funny all by itself, but as a culmination it was brilliant.

#travle #761 +0 (Perfect)
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https://travle.earth

Robusto

14:39

#WhenTaken #321 (13.01.2025)

I scored 818/1000🏅

1️⃣📍115 m - 🗓️3 yrs - 🥇197/200
2️⃣📍11.6K km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥉93/200
3️⃣📍634 km - 🗓️14 yrs - 🥈154/200
4️⃣📍197 km - 🗓️11 yrs - 🥇175/200
5️⃣📍19.4 m - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇199/200

https://whentaken.com

Wordle 1,304 3/6

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GratefulDisciple

14:55

@Vikas Blue light filter affected the color. But for more than that, you may want to use an app that allows you to do that. For example, for epub digital books I use "Moon+ Reader Pro" that allows me to use any color for text and any color for background.

Vikas

@GratefulDisciple That seems better approach. Is it free and for android?

Damm it asks for money :(

Nothing good comes for free.

GratefulDisciple

@Vikas Yes, good ones usually are not free. Or if they are, they put ads. I use the app a lot, so it's worth it for me. But please shop around. I started using it more than 4 years ago, so maybe there are better options now.

Vikas

@GratefulDisciple The other solution is to edit the PDF/Epub manually according to the colors I need but that's tedious.

There are some alternatives on store.

GratefulDisciple

@Vikas Yup. And I don't think for PDF Moon+ Reader Pro offers color change (hasn't test it yet), only for epub (and possibly other formats).

Vikas

I'll check reviews.

Robusto

15:00

Connections
Puzzle #582
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Vikas

@GratefulDisciple Oh wait. Moon plus has a free version also. Could be with ads.

GratefulDisciple

@Vikas Yes, they do have a free version so you can try.

Vikas

play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.readera&hl=en_IN

I found this. Has a lot of reviews.

GratefulDisciple

@Vikas Good luck.

Vikas

I'll try this.

Robusto

15:07

Strands #316
“Hole foods”
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@Vikas That looks good for a mobile phone. Will it work on a tablet?

Vikas

15:21

@Robusto I think so if there's android in tablet.

GratefulDisciple

15:44

@Vikas Of course the app works on an Android tablet too.

Robusto

Daily Octordle #1085
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Score: 65

jlliagre

#WhenTaken #321 (13.01.2025)

I scored 819/1000🏅

1️⃣📍305 km - 🗓️3 yrs - 🥇187/200
2️⃣📍11.5K km - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥉100/200
3️⃣📍1.5K km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥈153/200
4️⃣📍32.3 km - 🗓️11 yrs - 🥇180/200
5️⃣📍13.5 m - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇199/200

https://whentaken.com

@Robusto Unstatistical crushing victory ;-)

Robusto

Daily Sequence Octordle #1085
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Score: 76

@jlliagre lol yes

Daily Extreme Octordle #1085
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Score: 67

jlliagre

Wordle 1,304 4/6

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Robusto

16:01

jlliagre

Daily Octordle #1085
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Score: 78

Daily Sequence Octordle #1085
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Score: 66

Daily Extreme Octordle #1085
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Score: 62

Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Jan. 13, 2025

T I G H T R O P E
💔 💔 ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 💔 ⎵ ⎵ 🤕

My Score: 850

Robusto

16:17

@jlliagre I think we can quit this one going forth. It's just too silly.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I like this puzzle; the yellow and the green were straightforward, but my problem is with spoiler causing me to have to brute-force-guess many times.

Robusto

> Over the past few months, several essays have been published in Spain that explore this desire (nostalgic or projected into the future) for a better internet and propose different collective solutions to escape this degraded internet in which the platforms have won the battle against users, where hatred has surpassed support networks, where data extraction and the desire for profit dirty every corner of the web, and where entertainment is poisoned. —El Païs, 7 Jan 2025

alphabet

Surprising chart of the day:

Mitch

@Araucaria-Him I voted to reopen because you edited (maybe to open to give an answer?), but look Jake, it's Poetrytown. Anything goes there.

alphabet

Apparently church membership is higher now than it was around 1800, before the Second Great Awakening.

Mitch

16:32

@alphabet Surprising which way? It's not surprising that it's going down since WWII.

Robusto

Oh no, now we´re all gonna have to get Ultra96 HDMI technology. Where will it all end?

Mitch

I'm surprised it's that high currently.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Surprising indeed. It would be great if the chart includes # of those who identify as an adherent of a religion, even though they are not a member of a religious institution.

@Mitch Maybe that's not just Christianity but all organized religions?

Mitch

@alphabet Oh. yeah, church membership. maybe it's hard to attend a church out on the frontier, however God- (and locals-) fearing one might be?

alphabet

@Mitch I would have assumed that church membership was fairly stable throughout history before the current rapid decline. When actually it's still much higher today than the low point around 1800.

GratefulDisciple

16:37

@Robusto I'm still on 4K (HDMI 1.4) and still watch movies at 1080p, maybe 20 years later I'll need Ultra96 cable for HDMI 2.2.

Mitch

@GratefulDisciple Gallup just asks 'religious institution' without specifying. But anyway anything other than Christianity in the US is at most one of those small turns in the graph, somewhat negligeable numerically.

@alphabet OK, yeah I can see that now.

tchrist

@Robusto Sounds like it's 29 years out of date to me.

Mitch

@alphabet I'd like to see similar for European countries to compare (better record keeping, stable population over the same time period).

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch That's true. I trust Pew Research more, sometime around 2008 (?) they conducted a very detailed survey. Short googling only led me to this statistics.

alphabet

@Mitch I'm assuming the increase after 1800 is from the Second Great Awakening. Probably that shift is much smaller if you'd just asked people whether they're Christians--the alternative in the intellectual classes, at least, was surely deism rather than atheism.

Lambie

16:47

Question re SE and all sites on it. There is a site where I only have 105 points. When I look at my Stats on that site, it's doesn't list all the sites where I have points. But when I look at others on that same site with low points there, all the sites where they have points show up under Stats. Why is that?

Robusto

@tchrist That's the point of the article

> ‘The internet hasn’t made us bad, we were already like that’: The mistake of yearning for the ‘friendly’ online world of 20 years ago

@GratefulDisciple 1080o us fine. The closer we get to reality the less like fantasy it becomes. I need the fantasy.

Sorry, 1080p. I can't type this morning, for some reason. And I keep switching from English key layout to Spanish, compounding the problem.

tchrist

I leave my teclado en modo internacional and just remember the ~~MacroMan~~ MacRoman Opt-* sequences for los Spanish caracteres.

Araucaria - Him

@Mitch Thanks, Mitch. I already wrote one!

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto Yes, 1080p on 45-60" TV is real enough. I don't like most recent movies that have more advanced CGI or higher production value (cinematography wise) but have much less depth in theme development, coarser dialogues, flatter acting, less musical variety (Lord of the Rings movie is a prime example), etc. Movies like Amadeus (1984), Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989), The Hunt for Red October (1990), and First Contact (1996) remain some of the gold standard for me.

Robusto

17:04

@GratefulDisciple And then there's Chinatown, which had none of the gimmickry, just a towering script and great directing.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto Haven't seen that one, will keep in mind.

Robusto

Side note: for some reason my fingers don't want to do all the b-minor scales today. I am chastened.

@GratefulDisciple You haven't? Wow, go get at your earliest opportunity. It is simply the greatest film noir ever made, and possibly the greatest film as well.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto I have most trouble with B-flat major.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple That one can be annoying, but the chording makes up for it. ;-)

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto OK then. I can see that it's in IMDB top 250 as #164.

@Robusto I see that it wins 1975 nomination for best music (Jerry Goldsmith) which I trust would be much better than Howard Shore's winning best music for Lord of the Rings in 2002, which I'm very disappointed with since there was too much repetition; not enough thematic material and too generic orchestration.

Mitch

17:12

@Robusto It's not you. b-minor was always like that.

GratefulDisciple

Jerry Goldsmith should won either an Oscar or Saturn award for Star Trek First Contact.

Mitch

There's a Saturn award?

tchrist

@Robusto Same problem with its relative major?

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple The music is deeply integral to the film's period (late 1930s) but also with its themes.

@tchrist You mean D? No, I'm not having any issues with that one today. But I don't do all the scales every day. I choose one and go through all its ramifications. Less boring that way.

Arpeggios as well.

tchrist

@Robusto Yes. D is my goto scale.

For the other side though I more often do E♭ than B♭.

Robusto

17:20

From two to five ♭s I find the fingering pretty "grateful" both for chords and scales.

♭♭ to ♭♭♭♭♭

Araucaria - Him

18:08

@tchrist Here's another user I hope hasn't died: linguistics.stackexchange.com/users/6726/user6726

jlliagre

StackOverflow looks to be dying faster than its users.

CowperKettle

What did 2 say to 3 when they saw 6 act like an idiot?
Don’t mind him. He’s just a product of our times

tchrist