English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:20

How Empires Fall and Why the US is Next

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handan_toddler

01:46

Arfrever

01:57

@Robusto, @HippoSawrUs This is a formation distinct from past passive participles, and not involving any intermediary verbs. It also has cognates in Latin and Slavic languages. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/… ; en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-atus#Etymology_1 ; en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ed#Etymology_3 ; en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-at%D1%8A

tchrist

02:41

@HippoSawrUs It does not. I've answered all this, somewhere.

8

A: bemustached versus mustached

I think you are right that this word was meant to draw attention to itself. It amuses. The entire article is quite tongue-in-cheek — or even sword-in-cheek. Or perhaps even something-else-in-cheek, given how it starts and ends: Sex and sword swallowing beg some pretty obvious comparisons ...

I've changed the close reason on this from "just look at a dictionary" to dup of 3 other questions:

1

Q: Participle Lookalikes

Is there a grammatical or linguistical term for words which do look like participles but in fact aren't? As example: "talented" looks like the participle of "to talent", but that word doesn't exist. Addendum: as I just learned from a comment from @FumbleFingers "to talent" once did exist and is p...

They may not be completely satisfied, but far better than telling them that a dictionary would have answered their question, in my estimation.

Cerberus

Good.

tchrist

> There is no verb involved here, neither to flowing hair not to mustache. The ‑ed suffix can turn both verbs and nouns into adjectives. Think of it as two difference suffixes. This is not a past participle.

Sigh, my link to the free version is dead.

I know somewhere I cited the full OED version of this second -ed suffix.

It a very very very large list of these.

14

A: Do adjectives ending in "-ed" derive from words that were once used as verbs?

The OED makes a clear distinction between the -ed that forms adjectives and the -ed that forms the past participle (and, naturally, any past participle can be used as an adjective). The adjective-forming -ed (which gives the meaning "possessing, provided with, characterized by") definitely does ...

Kosmo included the OED citation.

Cerberus

02:57

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟪🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Purple sucks haha.

tchrist

> Appended to nouns in order to form adjectives connoting the possession
or the presence of the attribute or thing expressed by the noun.
In modern English, and even in Middle English, the form affords no
means of distinguishing between the genuine examples of this suffix
and those participial adjectives in ‑ed suffix1 which are ultimately
< nouns through unrecorded verbs. Examples that have come down from
Old English are ringed:—Old English hringede, hooked:—Old English
hócede, etc. The suffix is now added without restriction to any

tchrist

03:35

They list 2,752 of them.

> mac(tchrist)% repeat 20 randline ~/tmp/tt
concerted
pumped
lotted
adjuvanted
sprigged
heighted
bummed
riced
moggadored
boated
trademarked
mascaraed
domed
slutched
paged
camoised
unfirmamented
jettied
clumped
sexfoiled

> mac(tchrist)% repeat 20 randline ~/tmp/t
truffled, adj. 1820–
melled, adj.² 1606–34
dull-witted, adj. a1387–
sooted, adj. 1530–
pansied, adj. 1789–
card-indexed, adj. 1892–
unhosed, adj. 1297–
mislived, adj. a1425–1566
toged, adj. a1616–1862
corded, adj. 1382–
ring-fenced, adj. 1796–
barbelled, adj. 1883–
pedicled, adj. 1771–
uncolted, adj. 1598–
lesioned, adj. 1821–
snaked, adj. 1841–
fronded, adj.² 1882–
plumaged, adj. 1777–
carbuncled, adj. 1569–
movabled, adj. 1693

Cerberus

You're absolutely movabled.

tchrist

> mac(tchrist)% repeat 20 randline ~/tmp/t
maddered, adj. 1580–
flinted, adj. 1568–87
staged, adj. 1561–
targeted, adj.¹ 1653–
hued, adj. Old English–
crewed, adj. 1847–
rubber-cemented, adj. 1892–
paled, adj.² ?1474–
betailed, adj. 1762–
unged, adj. 1562
looked, adj.² 1597–
cultrated, adj. 1752–
saccharined, adj. 1962–
paradised, adj. 1594–
blackleaded, adj. 1798–
unlanterned, adj. a1750–
maleured, adj. a1529
flippered, adj. 1856–
staired, adj. 1650–
pastured, adj. 1552–

> mac(tchrist)% look cal ~/tmp/t
calced, adj. 1884–
calibred, adj. 1887–
calved, adj. 1593–
mac(tchrist)% look spi ~/tmp/t
spiced, adj. c1325–
spidered, adj. 1650–
spiked, adj.¹ 1597–
spiked, adj.² 1681–
spindled, adj. 1584–
spined, adj. 1777–
spiralled, adj. 1665–
spired, adj.² 1610–
spired, adj.³ a1625–
spirited, adj. 1508–
spitted, adj. 1626–
spittled, adj. 1926–

Cerberus

Connections #521, November 12.
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟦🟦🟦🟦

connectionsplus.io/game/521

This one was doable.

tchrist

> mac(tchrist)% look con ~/tmp/t
conceited, adj. & n. ?1536–
concerted, adj. 1652–
concertinaed, adj. 1880–
conched, adj. 1834–
concussed, adj. 1605–
conked, adj. 1941–
consanguined, adj. 1846
conscienced, adj. c1447–
consonanted, adj. 1893–
constitutioned, adj. 1711–
contractured, adj. 1890–
conversationed, adj. a1625

Robusto

@tchrist If there's a distinction here, I'm not seeing it.

tchrist

03:43

I like marmaladed.

@Robusto What do you mean?

These are all words that end in -ed but didn't come from a verb to get there.

> robinredbreasted, adj. 1922–

> nebbed, adj. ?a1425–
disprivacied, adj. 1848–
midribbed, adj. 1796–

> crinolined, adj. 1848–
appendixed, adj. 1665–
unsistered, adj. 1738–
brocaded, adj. 1656–

> monkeyed, adj. ?1794
feather-tongued, adj. a1618–
unexceptioned, adj. 1704
polyurethaned, adj. 1964–

> unbelawyered, adj. 1830–
lawned, adj.¹ 1798–
sky-scrapered, adj. 1909–
fossiled, adj. 1828–
pitfalled, adj. c1475–
calced, adj. 1884–
fossed, adj. 1682–

> lilied, adj. 1614–

> three-headed, adj. Old English–

@Cerberus ^^^ You were never verbed.

Cerberus

@tchrist Can we be quite sure?

tchrist

Would it be grammatical to three-head you?

A one-armed man is disarming.

Because he can one-arm anybody he pleases.

I'm thinking these don't verb very well.

Arfrever

@Robusto Reflex of aforementioned Latin suffix also survives in Spanish -ado. E.g. cebra + -ado > cebrado. There is no verb cebrar.

tchrist

> mac(tchrist)% look ze ~/tmp/t
zealed, adj. 1679–1903
zebraed, adj. 1806–

Speak of the devil and he appears!

No zebraing required.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why not?

tchrist

03:59

@Cerberus Only when we can zero-convert anything on demand.

Cerberus

Quoi?

CowperKettle

> Waiter: "How do you like your steak, sir?"
Sir: "Like winning an argument with my wife."
Waiter: "Rare it is!"

tchrist

@Cerberus You'd have to be able to three-head somebody.

Cerberus

Why couldn't we?

The gods three-headed me.

Or perhaps my genealogy did.

tchrist

Maybe they tripartited you.

Triparted?

Alas, it has the tombstone marker!!

> † ˈtripart [v.]
tripart [adj.]
triˈparted [ppl. adj.]
triˈpartedly [adv.] ← triˈparted
triˈpartible [adj.] ← ˈtripart
tripartient [adj.]
triˌpartiˈsan [adj.]
tripartism [n.]
† tripartite [v.]
tripartite [adj.]
† tripartited [ppl. adj.]
tripartitely [adj.]
tripartition [n.]
† triˈpartitory [adj.]
× triparty [adj.] → tri-
† triˈparty [v.]

They've tombstoned all the good verbs there. I wonder why.

> triˈfurcal [adj.] ← trifurcate
trifurcate [adj.]
ˈtrifurcate [v.] ← trifurcate
ˈtrifurcated [adj.] ← trifurcate
› trifurcated blenny, hake ← trifurcate
ˈtrifurcating [vbl. n.] ← trifurcate
› trifurcating box ← trifurcate
trifurˈcation ← trifurcate
† triˈfurcous [adj.] ← trifurcate

> tricephal ← tri-
triceˈphalic ← tri-
triceps [adj.]
† triˈceptic [adj.] ← triceps
× triceptor → tri-
triˈceptor ← tri-

tricephalic will do: phalic in a trice!

> mac(tchrist)% oed -pv three --nopager
† three-double [v.] ← ˈthree-ˌdouble
† three-fallow [v.] ← three
three-peat [v.]
three-putt [v.] ← three

> mac(tchrist)% oed -pv tri | wc -l
73

Compare 4 verbs beginning with "three" with the 73 verbs starting with "tri", because classical roots are far more productive.

CowperKettle

04:17

“Emotional words evoke region and valence-specific patterns of concurrent neuromodulator release in human thalamus and cortex”

Robusto

@tchrist How is that different from bricked or dicked or breaded ? I mean, I can't see these as anything but nouns that are verbed.

handan_toddler

Sex, Death, and Moral Outrage: remembering Bill Labov

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CowperKettle

Kurt Vonnegut of the day:

> Nothing ever really ends. That’s the horrible part of being in the short-story business—you have to be a real expert on ends. Nothing in real life ends. ‘Millicent at last understands.’ Nobody ever understands. (K. Vonnegut)

handan_toddler

Jan 4 at 20:41, by handan_toddler

I guess Linguistics isn't as well established as I once thought.

CowperKettle

04:38

Word of the day: last - A last is a mechanical form shaped like a human foot. It is used by shoemakers and cordwainers in the manufacture and repair of shoes

Robusto

@CowperKettle "He was a cobbler to the last."

Cerberus

Schoenmaker, blijf bij je leest.

Robusto

We don't have cobblers anymore.

Cerberus

We do have schoenmakers.

Robusto

Does Dutch form plurals with /s/ or /n/ or a variety of affixen?

alphabet

05:16

@Cerberus Tricapitalism.

Cerberus

05:50

@Robusto Both -s and -en.

It depends on the word.

Some can have both.

CowperKettle

06:12

Schrödinger’s Cat as read by a Thespian.

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Cerberus

Connections #516
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪

CowperKettle

06:32

Birds Don't Have Lungs Like We Do - They Have Something WAY Better!

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Birds breathe through their bones

HippoSawrUs

@tchrist Right, that was not a good close reason; can't even find 2nd -ed suffix definition anywhere. Saw your comment and looked for it. Found RedDwight's answer and others. But not yours. Thanks.

HippoSawrUs

06:58

@tchrist There's no way we can fix all those old Lexico links. Ashworth didn't approve of them then. Who knew dictionary.com would outlast Lexico?

HippoSawrUs

07:13

@tchrist "concerted" is in our charity's mission statement. Should've got that one at least.

Thanks for all the words and effort required.

It was an interesting question

Even if asked several different ways

CowperKettle

HippoSawrUs

@Cerberus You could always be another CerberusEd.

Or CerberusTed, why not?

CowperKettle

08:17

> “Nothing is built on stone; All is built on sand, but we must build as if the sand were stone.”

handan_toddler

09:22

CowperKettle

Chollet -- "o-models FAR beyond classical DL"

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Xanne

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟦🟦🟦
🟦🟪🟦🟦
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

CowperKettle

09:37

@M.A.R. - I came across a Persian word on Twitter. A rarity.

CowperKettle

10:46

Millions of Cats

Millions of Cats is a children's picture book written and illustrated by Wanda Gág in 1928. The book won a Newbery Honor award in 1929, one of the few picture books to do so. Millions of Cats is the oldest American picture book still in print. It entered the public domain in the United States in 2024. == Plot == The hand-lettered text, done by the author's brother, tells the story of an elderly couple who live comfortably, but realize that they are very lonely. The wife wants a cat to love, so her husband sets off in search of a beautiful one to bring home to her. After travelling far away from...

She hung out with the other kind of Bohemians — leftist artists in Greenwich Village — contributed to socialist magazines like The Liberator and New Masses, and eventually married the labor organizer Earle Marshall Humphreys, who would become her artistic collaborator.

But before she accepted his hand, she made her intentions firm: “I would marry no man unless he would promise to run the house during my drawing moods and would excuse me from scrubbing floors.” (A few years after their marriage, she published Gone is Gone: or, The Story of a Man Who Wanted to Do Housework.)

> initial results from an investigator-sponsored, first-in-human study transplanting UP421, an allogeneic primary islet cell therapy engineered with Sana’s hypoimmune (HIP) technology, into a patient with type 1 diabetes without the use of any immunosuppression

globenewswire.com/news-release/2025/01/07/3005841/0/en/…

Good if long-term results would be good and replicated.

handan_toddler

11:19

🙊🙉🙈

tchrist

13:31

@Robusto It depends. Sometimes the noun+ed version occurs much earlier in the historical record than a some verb proper eventually shows up.

Robusto

13:42

#travle #757 +0 (Perfect)
✅✅✅✅✅✅
https://travle.earth

@tchrist That strikes me as arcane and occult.

GratefulDisciple

Today's connections is quite easy, even the purple (if you're American):

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟨🟨🟨🟨

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple If Trump has his way, you'll be living in America soon yourself.

Robusto

14:12

#WhenTaken #317 (09.01.2025)

I scored 947/1000👑

1️⃣📍464 km - 🗓️2 yrs - 🥇184/200
2️⃣📍25.1 km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥇192/200
3️⃣📍3.1 km - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥇200/200
4️⃣📍669 km - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇179/200
5️⃣📍183 km - 🗓️1 yrs - 🥇192/200

https://whentaken.com

Wordle 1,300 5/6

⬛⬛⬛🟩⬛
🟨⬛🟨⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦

@GratefulDisciple Tru dat.

Strands #312
“Off the hook!”
🔵🟡🔵🔵
🔵🔵

Daily Octordle #1081
🔟4️⃣
5️⃣🕚
6️⃣7️⃣
8️⃣🕛
Score: 63

Daily Sequence Octordle #1081
3️⃣6️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕚
🕛🕐
Score: 72

Daily Extreme Octordle #1081
8️⃣🔟
7️⃣9️⃣
4️⃣🕛
6️⃣3️⃣
Score: 59

Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Jan. 9, 2025

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 🎉

My Score: 2170

tchrist

15:00

> blip chip clip crip drip flip grip klip Plip plip scrip ship Shqip shrip skip slip snip strip thrip Trip trip whip

Cerberus

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟪🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

I found it not easy but doable.

Of course I have no clue what purple is about.

And I kind of guessed blue without fully understanding what she was going full until I read the description.

Cerberus

16:29

@HippoSawrUs Yes, we could all have three heads!

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Naturally, but even longtime immigrants like myself would know spoiler.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Well, I would like the NYT's puzzles more if they weren't regional.

Then again, I would like most quizzes better if they weren't about commercial mass culture, so it's just a fact of life.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I agree with you, since it's supposed to be an English word game, although the purple today is MUCH better than yesterday's.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple You mean this is today's purple, isn't it?

I would consider it the worst.

@alphabet I'm sure that would make it better than it currently is.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I meant 578 compared to 577.

Cerberus

16:34

Let me check 577.

Was that the one with the Spoiler.?

That one was bad, but today's was worse.

Both unguessable.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Yes.

@Cerberus But 578 is knowable by majority of Americans while 577 is knowable by only a much smaller subset. Consider the game in the period where my mom was young (Dutch still ruled Indonesia) where she spoiler so it's that level of expectation from the Connections' creator.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Yes, but that is regional and unguessable for anyone not from that country, so no fun.

GratefulDisciple

She told me that she (or her mom?) needed to memorize even the names of small rivers in the Netherlands.

@Cerberus I conceded that point already, but I wouldn't call 578 worse than 577, unless the 577 category extended far beyond the shores of America (which I don't know).

Cerberus

At least I know 3 out of the 4 items in 577.

I would just never link them to the words as given.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Yes, that's how I still maintain the streak, almost lost it.

@Cerberus I agree it's unfair to you.

Cerberus

16:42

No, I mean 3 out of the 4 terms, not quartets.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Oh, okay.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple At least I knew 3 out of the 4 Spoiler..

I still think it is no fun, though.

I also got today's game right despite not knowing anything about purple.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Really! I wouldn't know that at all since I don't like that kind of spoiler in the first place. The only one I knew is spoiler.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Yeah, that is another reason why I consider it bad, besides the spelling-issue: commercial mass culture is not something that you should assume people know.

That is what I meant by most quizzes having this problem.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus no argument there.

@Cerberus So does American crossword puzzle, which is much older.

Cerberus

16:48

At Christmas, I made a Connections puzzle with four words from the Dutch version of O, Christmas Tree.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I still remember the first line in Dutch: "O Tannenbaum"

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple What do you mean here by "American"? Yes, crossword puzzles may suffer from the same problem. Any kind of puzzle or game with language may fall for it.

@GratefulDisciple That is German! O, denneboom.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus my memory must got mixed up. I thought that's how my mom would sing it.

Cerberus

It is somewhat similar.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus meaning crossword puzzles in American newspapers.

Cerberus

16:51

You seem to suggest those are different in other countries?

I think they are not.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I agree. Crossword puzzles seem to include lots of regional cultural knowledge, which is why I was having a hard time with American crossword puzzles when I was a recent immigrant; don't know anything about baseball, beer, American football, etc. So doesn't it mean you lose your point for Connections including cultural knowledge?

Cerberus

Ah, I understand.

What do you mean by "losing your point"?

And would you say this is the same for other types of mass-market puzzles/games involving words?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Because you're complaining that Connections include too much American specific knowledge.

@Cerberus I haven't had experience with them. I mostly do crossword puzzle as a kid (with kid-level knowledge) and when living in Indonesia (with Indonesian specific knowledge being expected in Kompas).

Gotta run to a meeting. TTYL.

Cerberus

I have to run too haha.

GratefulDisciple

18:04

@Robusto Yeah, I can now sympathize with my Canadian comrades how it feels to be at the receiving end of the American hegemony. But having learned the rudiments of Canadian history from their self-consciousness (reflected in their Canadian citizenship study guide), I hope the 2 centuries friendship following the war of 1812 (quite shocking, see page 17) survives one man's loose talk

that at best is a campaign rhetoric to his supporters and an unprincipled negotiation tactic in very bad form to country leaders abroad, but at worse will deplete American cultural goodwill abroad.

Another thought occurred to me is how NATO would respond to USA annexing Canada! Does NATO has a provision when 2 member states invade each other? Who should the other member states support? But it's most likely USA will quit NATO first.

GratefulDisciple

19:07

@Cerberus BTW, Wyna Liu also makes NYT "The Mini Crossword". Tried today's game just now, solved it in 4:10. #5 down is easy to me while #1 across should be easy to you, #6 across is the only one cultural specific, which I guessed later (as a regular American name) once the other letters are filled. #7 across I didn't know (new slang to me).

Cerberus

19:53

@GratefulDisciple OK will try.

So you moved from Indonesia to America, then to Canada?

Yeah there were a few things I didn't know.

But of course you don't need to know everything in a crossword.

6 across I didn't know, but then I already had all the letters.

5 down I didn't know but could guess when I had 3/4 letters.

7 across I could guess when I saw some letters, I had heard of it.

For some of the others I also needed letters.

handan_toddler

20:10

@Cerberus how do you make spoilers in chat?

Cerberus

@handan_toddler [Spoiler.](https://q.q "Text here")

Just copy that, and change Text here.

The bit in quotation marks is the hover tooltip.

handan_toddler

Thanks 🙏

[Spoiler.] (HTTPS://q.q"text here")

Cerberus

@handan_toddler By the way, if you go to the permalink of a message, you are taken to the chat log. There you can click the message and pick History, and you will see the message without formatting.

@handan_toddler Add a space.

handan_toddler

Spoiler.

Cerberus

Tadaa.

handan_toddler

20:19

💯✅🙏

GratefulDisciple

20:29

@Cerberus I went to USA for college right after high school (took SAT, TOEFL, and AP tests in Jakarta). A year later my dad received invitation to apply as a Permanent Resident, which applied to me as well since I was still under 21, then we all became US citizens. I moved to Canada a few years ago. So most of my life I spent as an American, and still proud to be an American.

I remember when a long time ago I visited Indonesia using my US passport I was rebuked by the border agent for deserting Indonesia, which doesn't recognize dual citizenship.

Cerberus

OK interesting.

Why "proud"?

I can understand being proud of someone good one has done; but of citizenship?

M.A.R.

That's us Asians' way of saying "I'm not saying America sucked, but"

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus The phrase "proud to be American" is quite common in the USA, became lyrics of patriotic songs.

Cerberus

What does it mean?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus "Peace"

Cerberus

20:38

Is it like "gay pride", which is equally hard to understand for me?

@M.A.R. Oh, America is the country of peace, just as Islam is said to be the religion of peace?

Mitch

@Cerberus Danged if I know

M.A.R.

@Cerberus totally. We're ensuring that the adequate dose of peace is administered before people look at us as civilly disobedient immigrants.

Mitch

It means "I am happy to be on this team"

M.A.R.

So if I ever visit some American city I will make sure to be proud too.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Citizenship is legal & immigration formality, but "proud to be American" says that you are part of a collective, not much different I think, in ancient Greece where one would be "proud to be Athenian". It implies willingness to defend the country and to do things beneficial for American society.

Cerberus

20:39

@M.A.R. Understandable.

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple or implies "Don't hurt me"

Cerberus

@Mitch But how does being proud equal being glad?

Mitch

@M.A.R. I mean they all have Starbucks so if you're in to that sort of thing they're great

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple OK but I would not call that proud, nor do I think any Athenian would.

Mitch

@Cerberus what does pride mean at all?

GratefulDisciple

20:41

@Cerberus "gay pride" has a different connotation; it means you're not ashamed for being gay. "proud to be American" means more than that.

Cerberus

Just as I can't understand why someone would be proud to be a lesbian. It is just something you are, it is not a good deed that deserves pride and praise.

I know some people say this.

@Mitch Feeling good because you did something good?

Mitch

It's the opposite of shame

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I find both uses of the word odd and somehow inappropriate.

Mitch

@Cerberus pride in the label. Feel good because of the associations with that label.

If it the association is because of a personal act, sure that seems a bit more substantive.

Cerberus

@Mitch Would anyone say, I am ashamed to be Bangladeshi?

Mitch

20:43

It's more like "I am proud to be a Real Madrid supporter"

Cerberus

@Mitch Why would you be proud of that?

Mitch

Which may eventually lead to supporting the team substantively by buying a T-shirt

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus It's a natural concept for me because as a kid growing in Indonesia, the notion of national identity and of "loving the motherland" was inculcated in me, making me having some emotional reactions with certain patriotic songs. But this kind of national identity is NOT exclusionary (which is good). It doesn't mean I should "hate" any other countries. So that's why it's easy for me to transition to adopting America as my "motherland" exemplified by the thing in that purple category.

Mitch

With their logo.

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't get why someone would use "proud" as a synonym of "feeling good". It is a more specific word.

Mitch

20:44

It means something

@Cerberus -I- wouldn't, but others might.

@Cerberus with the lesbian/gay thing it's to counteract bad feelings because historically those things were shameful.

So instead of feeling bad, be more affirmative and be proud.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I can understand liking one's country. I can't understand why it would make sense to be proud of a country; I could understand it a little more if one were proud of a specific good deed done by one's country (can a country do a deed?).

Though even then it seems like...it was not I who did that, it was some others from my country who did it, so how could I be proud of something I didn't do.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch I think that best captures the concept. Burning the flag or disrespecting some national symbols is an act that says you're betraying "the team". It's no surprise patriotism is inculcated deeply in the military too.

Mitch

I'm not saying that Germans should be saying "I'm proud to be German"...that might come across bad.

Cerberus

@Mitch Why not say "content" to be gay or even "happy"? "Proud" suggests gays are paragons of virtue, and also braggards.

Mitch

@GratefulDisciple patriotism helps dispel doubt and fear in combat.

@Cerberus "I am content to be gay" just isn't fun?

GratefulDisciple

20:49

@Cerberus TBH, I'm rather surprised at your reaction. I thought in Europe, national identity still matters. From what I read about UK as an observer, this same feeling remains there, esp. to those who regard the royal family positively. The movie King Ralph makes this very obvious, as long as it's reflecting the majority of British people to this day, of course.

Cerberus

@Mitch It would just sounds a bit disingenuous to say "I'm overjoyed to be gay", when being gay is just a neutral thing.

Mitch

Also, pardon me for being on topic, but 'content' meaning happy is one of those words they teach you in language class but no one ever uses.

At least not in ironically

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple This is specifically about being proud to be a member of a group that is not specifically something like "people who saved someone's life" or "people who helped an old woman cross the street".

The word "proud".

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't think it's universally considered neutral yet.

Cerberus

@Mitch I would say less than happy but more than completely neutral / I don't care.

Mitch

20:51

It's less neutral than being left handed

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus The correlate is "shame". If America got a bad name, I share in its shame. Maybe the concept of "family" is helpful here. I didn't contribute to my dad's achievements, but surely being biologically related, I could feel pride in my family?

Cerberus

Maybe if you helped them do it?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I agree with you that national pride is quite different than "gay pride"; I wouldn't be surprised if a dictionary would assign the 2 meanings with different numbers.

Cerberus

Maybe this is all a cultural difference.

@GratefulDisciple I mean exactly the opposite: both seem equally odd to me, similarly odd.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus No, you "inherit" their achievements, which motivates you to continue the trajectory that your parents did. Let's say your dad is a Dutch member of the parliament, or a distinguished lawyer / doctor / musician. If you decide to follow your dad's trade or become an MP yourself (like Justin Trudeau), that would be the sense of receiving and THEN continuing the family honor.

Cerberus

20:55

Maybe it is a cultural thing.

I can imagine a parent being proud of a child.

And I could understand feeling something like, "we did this!", when one's father did something nice. But then you'd immediately feel cringe after, because it isn't you who did anything.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Another example I saw in a military museum I recently visit. In the regiment's flag are the names of battles that the regiment's previous generations have fought and possibly lost lives. Being a member of that regiment NOW brings honor that you now need to maintain as you march with the flag.

Cerberus

I know people have feelings of nationalism.

And such.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Yeah, maybe it's a cultural thing, but I'm sure this feeling is more widespread than East Asian cultures. The American Greek immigrants portrayed in My Big Fat Greek Wedding movies are certainly proud to be Greek!

@Cerberus If I'm supposed to feel cringe for not doing the heroic / patriotic deeds that the Indonesian Independence heroes / national leaders did, then the whole programme of Indonesian education would have failed miserably. As a kid I WAS supposed to be proud for being an Indonesian because of the sacrifices that those people did to build the country. The feeling that we were supposed to have is gratitude, and I can easily translate those Indonesian patriotic songs as evidence.

Cerberus

Gratitude I could understand.

I just can't understand using the word proud, without irony, when it is about something one has not done.

Merely being part of a group.

But it doesn't matter.

You feel what you want to feel.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus If I may: gladness for thriving in America leads to gratitude to those (in history) which made my gladness possible, then leads to wanting to be part of the team, which then leads to being patriotic or pride to be in the team.

Cerberus

21:08

I think maybe one part of it is: if I say I am "proud" of being Dutch because I feel that what Holland has done is almost as if I had done it myself: should I also be proud of all the people killed, enslaved, and exploited by the Dutch government around the world and also in the home country?

@GratefulDisciple Wanting to be part of a group → pride: that is the connection I cannot make.

So maybe it is a mere definition question.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Well, if the balance of good vs. bad is negative, then yes, much less reason to be "proud", more like "shame" perhaps. But there must be some core of more pure ideals or deeds by our predecessors that we can be "proud" for, which in turn can be recovered as a nation purifies itself?

@Cerberus It can be, but I want to argue from something more inherent to human nature. But my time is up. Let me hash this some more and get back to you. Gotta to continue doing work now.

Cerberus

I really don't see how a country could be "good", maybe unless it were founded very recently.

And even then I don't see it as necessary or healthy to idealise it?

Work well!

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus OK, that's a good point. In other words, you find it hard to find justification to be "proud" of a country, when, in reviewing the historical records, you find it hard to justify saying a country can be "good"?

@Cerberus Thanks. Hope you have a good sleep tonight.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Of any country or any group, I would say.

Just of a specific deed I might feel proud, or perhaps of a saint I raised?

@GratefulDisciple Not yet!

M.A.R.

21:31

I'm proud of being an Iranian. Except the times when I'm the opposite of proud

Like that Armenian genocide, that was uncool.

To say the least

Cerberus

Oh, you had your own little Armenian genocide?

M.A.R.

What the heck is parapsychology? Did someone invent a new branch of science when my back was turned?

Cerberus

Pseudoscience.

Whence the sciency name.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus not a separate one, but you know in these things, no one is blameless.

Exdept the ones being genocided I guess

Cerberus

> 2. (informal) Apparently, but not necessarily, scientific; having the trappings of science.

M.A.R.

21:35

@Cerberus oh okay it's just this one guy on Skeptics's chosen a very odd hill to die on

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Hmm so it Persia coöperate with the Ottomans to drive Armenians to them or something?

M.A.R.

3

Q: Is extrasensory perception (ESP) statistically robust?

The claim comes from this notable source: What is the state-of-the-evidence for psi? Published by Parapsychological Association on Friday, February 11, 2011 Last Updated: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 To be precise, when we say that "X exists," we mean that the presently available, cumulative stati...

statistics esp science

The answer. Keeps rambling about Popper. Should have known they were a troll

@Cerberus I'm fairly certain Tabrizians did, because it happened around these parts.

In the way that all the bystanders during the witch hunts were guilty

Cerberus

> If the statistical techniques used by Bem could support a repeatedly-debunked pseudo-science like ESP, then it is more likely that the statistical techniques are flawed rather than ESP is accurate. It lead to a re-examination of the methodologies across psychology.

M.A.R.

I keep reading that "Bern"

Cerberus

@M.A.R. I saw it was bad in the first paragraph. Vote down and ignore.

@M.A.R. Same.

CowperKettle

21:38

> Flen, flyys, and freris populum domini male caedunt,
Thystlis and breris crescentia gramina laedunt;
Christe, nolens guerras, sed cuncta pace tueris;
Destrue per terras breris, flen, flyȝes, and freris.
Flen, flyȝes, and freris, foul falle hem thys fyften ȝeris,
For non that her ys lovit flen, flyȝes, ne freris.

M.A.R.

Bem sounds like a bum name

CowperKettle

1475 poem of the day

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Yeah, "we can't prove that it never works" is not a valid argument for something.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle also used as a synonym for "schizophrenic", though rarely

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Or was Tabriz part of the Ottoman Empire then?

M.A.R.

21:40

@Cerberus it's just that how can you read so much about the philosophy of science and then advocate for telepathy or whatever

@Cerberus for some time, yeah

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Yes, hard to understand.

@M.A.R. OK then it makes sense.

jlliagre

#WhenTaken #317 (09.01.2025)

I scored 818/1000🏅

1️⃣📍4.4K km - 🗓️4 yrs - 🥉122/200
2️⃣📍1.3K km - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥈164/200
3️⃣📍520 km - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥇184/200
4️⃣📍663 km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥈173/200
5️⃣📍585 km - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥇175/200

https://whentaken.com

M.A.R.

It's why Isfahan became a temporary then permanent capital city during the Safavids

Cerberus

I see Tabriz is quite close to modern Armenia.

@M.A.R. Oh, why?

Wasn't Tehran the capital yet?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I don't think the religious homogeneity of Iran is any coincidence

I mean, sure, some of it happened after 1979

That was mostly a bunch of wealthy Jewish families though

Cerberus

21:43

Right.

@M.A.R. What was?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus Tehran only became a capital after Qajar dynasty. The city's younger than America

@Cerberus the religious aspect of the 'purge' after the Islamic revolution

Cerberus

No way!

M.A.R.

Iran was already nearly homogeneously Muslim

With a significant majority being Shiite than Sunni, thanks to Safavids

So what had happened earlier? Yyyeah it was probably quite unpleasant

Zoroastrianism had evolved to be a part of culture. Nowruz, certain festivities, you might end up with an ignorant mullah even saying they're Islamic. The point is, very very few people really practice it, the whole religion

Perhaps India has more Zoroastrians than Iran did pre-1979.

CowperKettle

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Christians did the same thing, claim pagan practices.

M.A.R.

21:52

@Cerberus the moral of the story probably is Abrahamic religions are dry as shite and the festivities end up being adopted from other religions

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Yes.

And the more orthodox sects are the worst, like Calvinism, Salafism.

Although I don't actually know what festivities Salafists allow.

CowperKettle

> Ukraine sends 6 tanks to Canada for border defense, promises 3 more

Cerberus

Hehe.

As long as they're old.

@M.A.R. I am still not sure I understand what was going on with Jewish families.

jlliagre

22:46

Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Jan. 9, 2025

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 💔 🎉

My Score: 1820

Wordle 1,300 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨🟨🟨⬛
⬛🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Connections
Puzzle #578
🟩🟨🟩🟨
🟪🟨🟩🟩
🟪🟦🟩🟪
🟨🟨🟨🟦

Daily Octordle #1081
🕚4️⃣
7️⃣9️⃣
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Score: 55

Cerberus

23:13

> 11th century / 8th century – 550s BC Medes
550–330 Achaemenid Empire
330–321 Macedonian Empire
312–63 Seleucid Empire
247 BC – 224 AD Parthian Empire
224–651 Sasanian Empire
632–661 Rashidun Caliphate
651–743 Umayyad Caliphate
750–1258 1258 Abbasid Caliphate
821–1055 Persian Renaissance (Persian dynasties under Abbasid sovereignty)
1037–1194 Seljuk Empire (Turkic dynasty under Abbasid sovereignty)
1190–1221 Khwarazmian Empire
1219–1335 Mongol states
1370–1507 Timurid Empire
1378–1501 Aq Qoyunlu

@M.A.R. Is this vaguely representative of how Media/Persia/Iran was ruled?

I patched this stuff together, it won't be entirely accurate. And there will probably be debate about various situations.

jlliagre

23:32

Daily Sequence Octordle #1081
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Score: 59

Daily Extreme Octordle #1081
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7️⃣6️⃣
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Score: 60

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