English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

alphabet

00:00

But anyway @Criggie sorry to hear that!

think_meaning_builds

Soup kitchens feed the hungry.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Thanks, haven't heard WARN Act before. Good to know.

M.A.R.

Its name is as corny as clinical studies called IMPACT

alphabet

@M.A.R. Enough clever acronyms and capitalism will be fixed.

GratefulDisciple

00:20

@M.A.R. NASA people have their own share too. One I heard recently is D.A.R.T.: "Double Asteroid Redirection Test" (see news of a recent update). When I asked ChatGPT just now for "corny" NASA acronyms, that one came up.

Cerberus

00:43

@M.A.R. Yeah, I have that childish hype.

jlliagre

01:18

@Criggie That fucking sucks. I didn't immediately understood 'I'm now redundant'. Redondant exists but isn't used that way in French and I didn't make the link with 'to be made redundant' which I know. I first tried to find some connection with the Library of Alexandria fire but that clearly wasn't going to work. Then I got it by reading Cerberus' comment.

Criggie

01:32

well at least its not "out the door today"

but there's likely to be not a lot of work done between now and leaving day.

Cerberus

If I were New Zealandian employers, I would be dying to snatch you up immediately you became available.

Funeral procession of a southern Dutch drug lord.

Criggie

what - no bikes ?

Cerberus

Criminals are anti-bike!

It is more like a carnival wagon.

Criggie

bikes >> KKK horses

Cerberus

Not sure I understand that.

Criggie

01:48

The four horses pulling the wagon - they're wearing white hoods with pointy bits on top.
Looks vaguely like a Ku Klux Klan robe

Cerberus

Ahh I see.

Perhaps the four horses of the apocalypse?

Criggie

plausibly

jlliagre

@Cerberus Incredible ability to go unnoticed whatever the circumstances.

I wouldn't have guessed anything happened on that road should you haven't explained it.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Yeah it could have been just aunt Greta going out for a bottle of milk.

jlliagre

Yes, she wears white for milk :-) ['had happened' & 'you hadn't' I guess].

Cerberus

02:00

I don't think you need had there?

jlliagre

The first one is possibly redundant, yes.

Cerberus

I would do should you haven't → had you not.

jlliagre

Oh yes, that sounds idiomaticker.

Cerberus

Hah.

jlliagre

You should have posted that photo "à la WhenTaken". I would have been 6000 km+ and one decade or two off.

Oh no. There is a 'NL' on the right!

Cerberus

02:09

Hah, I should have.

Hmm I would not have spotted that, are you sure that's it?

jlliagre

These stickers are getting rarer and rarer now. Nobody I know use them on their cars.

Cerberus

Hmm what were they for?

jlliagre

@Cerberus To identify the country where a car was registered. They were mandatory when you travelled abroad before the European registration plates were adopted. The latter include the country.

Cerberus

Oh, I see.

Perhaps that picture is old?

Yes, from the year 2000.

jlliagre

Ah, so I would have been close on the year!

Cerberus

02:23

Ding!

And you already had the country.

So you would have scored close to 200.

jlliagre

I just read that on the Belgian plates, which have three letters followed by three digits, many letter combinations are forbidden:

AAP, AAS, AEL, ALA, ANE, ASS, BEB, BIT, BSP, BUB, BWP, BYT, CAP, CDF, CDH, CDV, CON, CSP, CUL, CUT, CVP, DCD, DIK, DOM, FAG, FDF, FOK, FOL, FOU, FUC, FUK, GAT, GAY, GEK, GOD, HIV, HOL, KAK, KKQ, KUL, KUT, LAF, LDD, LSP, LUL, MAS, MCC, MDP, MOR, MOU, NVA, PDB, PET, PFF, PJU, PKK, PRL, PSB, PSC, PSL, PTB, PUE, PUT, PVV, PYK, PYN, PYP, PYS, SEX, SPA, SUL, TAK, TET, TIT, VCD, VIH, VLD, VNV, ZAC et ZAK

FUQ is allowed though.

Cerberus

Hilarious.

Even PVV.

Half of those I have no idea what they mean.

jlliagre

Probably French then, or "Belgian"...

alphabet

02:43

@Cerberus Resumptive pronoun of the day: "Half of those I have no idea what they mean."

(Alternatively, a mispunctuated left dislocation with a comma missing after "those.")

Cerberus

@alphabet I expected you to bite.

Half of those I have no idea what mean.

Those I know what mean.

alphabet

@jlliagre Indeed, can't have a Pumpkin Spice Latte reference there.

Much less the surprisingly controversial American Library Association.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Here is one.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Mosque?

Cerberus

02:59

SE is having trouble loading.

I can't comment.

I would not get this one.

Can you see what is under/between the chairs?

And what is on the woman's feet?

jlliagre

E the 2d & Duke, 1960, Europe...

alphabet

@Cerberus A while back I got a text saying "That other guy I don't know why he keeps texting me." But it's the same issue: you could argue that it's just missing a comma rather than containing an actual resumptive pronoun in a wh-island.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Close! Except the last bit.

@alphabet Yes.

jlliagre

@Cerberus My first guess was Near/Middle east.

Cerberus

@alphabet Because the noun group is plain outside the rest of the sentence.

@jlliagre What do you wear inside a mosque?

But I think the location is probably impossible to guess.

Unless you know what she did in that year, which I did not.

jlliagre

03:05

@Cerberus Me? Nothing :-)

Nothing particular I mean :-) But no shoes.

Cerberus

And what are they doing?

I mean I am not 100% sure about mosques.

But I think what they are doing is incompatible?

jlliagre

Taking off their shoes to attend some wedding.

Cerberus

Well.

They are not just taking off their shoes.

But it won't help you anyway.

It's too hard, there are no real clues.

I mean the shoe thing suggests not Europe.

alphabet

@jlliagre Careful, indecent exposure will get you arrested.

Cerberus

7 mins ago, by Cerberus

And what is on the woman's feet?

jlliagre

03:08

@Cerberus I can't name that. Some bands?

Cerberus

Now look between/under the chairs.

jlliagre

Sandals?

Cerberus

Yes.

That's what's on her feet.

Do you wear those in a mosque?

Or perhaps open velvet slippers.

jlliagre

Definitely not, I was thinking about a royal privilege. Okay, so that's not a mosque. Not a wedding either?

Cerberus

No, but there is no way to guess.

Shall add another photo from the same week (probably) to make it easy?

jlliagre

03:14

Let's go.

Cerberus

This should make the approximate location easy.

And it is a funny photo.

jlliagre

Yes, clearly New Zealand!

Not a doubt as they say.

Cerberus

Exactly.

I don't know whether it would be guessable where she was going in the other photo.

Probably not.

Maybe if you know more about the country's customs than I do.

jlliagre

Is she wearing white?

Cerberus

I don't know.

I meant in the first picture, maybe it is known at what places in that country one would expect even such a person as she to take off her shoes.

jlliagre

03:19

Taj Mahal or something?

Cerberus

It actually has a very similar purpose!

Let me look up where it is.

Criggie

Topsy !

jlliagre

Okay, so is it a funeral? I believe white is the appropriate color for it in many parts of Asia.

Cerberus

Close!

But note that the second photo was probably on another day in a different city.

jlliagre

What can be close to a funeral? Le roi est mort, vive le roi?

Cerberus

03:22

Well, would you go to this place only when it is a funeral?

jlliagre

Anniversary?

Cerberus

Yes, though not sure that's the right term.

Anniversary suggests celebration to me?

jlliagre

Yes.

Cerberus

Hmm it seems you are right, it can be used like that.

jlliagre

French anniversaire translates to either anniversary or birthday.

Cerberus

03:25

A pyre was built here thirteen years earlier.

Onto which someone was put.

M.A.R.

@jlliagre do I wanna know what CDH is referring to?

jlliagre

@Cerberus I hope not alive. Was it Gandhi or Nehru?

Cerberus

The former.

Dead.

Assassinated.

So she came there to pay her respects, apparently in red velvet slippers.

In 1961.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Wow, that was hard.

I'm close on the year though.

Cerberus

Very close!

@jlliagre Yeah, impossible.

So I suppose not a good photo.

alphabet

03:29

@M.A.R. I think it's the name for that thing JD Vance did with a couch. Google tells me it's also a Belgian political party, which seems like the more likely explanation.

M.A.R.

@alphabet . . . Not gonna Google that

NOT gonna Google that

Dammit

jlliagre

@M.A.R. Tell me.

think_meaning_builds

LMGTFY

alphabet

03:42

@M.A.R. John Oliver called his spokesperson to ask if he had, in fact done it and they hung up on him, which is, crucially, not a denial.

jlliagre

Who did what with a couch??

Les Engagés (parti politique)

Les Engagés est un parti politique belge francophone centriste et social-libéral. Il est actuellement présidé par Maxime Prévot Il est issu du renommage et du changement de positionnement idéologique en 2022 du Centre démocrate humaniste (CDH), lui-même né en 2002 d'un mouvement similaire du Parti social-chrétien (PSC), constitué en 1968 de la scission linguistique du Parti social-chrétien belge. Il est représenté aux parlements fédéral, wallon, bruxellois, francophone, germanophone (via le CSP) et européen. Il participe depuis 2024 aux gouvernements wallon et francophone, qu'il préside, en coalition...

alphabet

That's the only non-depressing news story we've had this whole election cycle.

alphabet

04:00

I'm really looking forward to voting for all the Democrats running unopposed. I wonder which ones are the lizard people.

HippoSawrUs

05:32

I got Wordle in 2 b/c 1) luck, 2) my dominant foot 3) genius but in a tunnel. Like all things.

SmokeDetector

10:41

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted username, potentially bad keyword in body (91): API Working in Postman but Failing in Integration - Need Guidance!‭ by John Wick‭ on english.SE

tchrist

10:59

> Drill down through the seasonally frozen soil in this region and you reach a thick clay permafrost layer. Sandwiched between the soil and permafrost lie unusual metre-thick ponds of very salty water known as cryopegs, which are underlain by crystalised methane-water solids, kept stable by the high pressure and low temperature.

Weird to see a transitive use of a -lie verb.

Yet fear of repercussions can certainly underlie his hesitancy.

Word of the Day: cryopegs

From theguardian.com/science/2024/oct/23/….

@jlliagre Il y'en a qui fait tout.

Funny how different that sentence is using anything compared to using everyone. :)

jlliagre

@tchrist I can imagine, yes :-) [btw: qui font tout]

tchrist

@jlliagre I kept thinking it should be font.

en feels plural to me.

There.

jlliagre

Il y en a un qui fait tout

tchrist

Ahah.

jlliagre

Il y en a plusieurs

tchrist

11:10

Right.

tous :)

MetaEd

11:46

Wordle 1,222 4/6

⬛⬛🟩⬛⬛
⬛🟩🟩⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

jlliagre

Wordle 1 222 5/6

⬛🟩⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛🟩
🟨🟩🟨⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

HippoSawrUs

13:03

I just mistook Leon Rippy for Neil Young b/c I way underestimated how old Young could be.

Robusto

#travle #679 +0 (Perfect)
✅✅✅
https://travle.earth

HippoSawrUs

Saving Grace this time, vs. Grace Under Fire

I'm just unfamiliar with Grace shows…obviously.

Robusto

13:19

#WhenTaken #239 (23.10.2024)

I scored 629/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 3979 km - 🗓️ 10 yrs - ⚡ 115 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 2268 km - 🗓️ 22 yrs - ⚡ 94 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 2300 km - 🗓️ 8 yrs - ⚡ 136 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 75 km - 🗓️ 18 yrs - ⚡ 157 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 369 km - 🗓️ 24 yrs - ⚡ 127 / 200

https://whentaken.com

Wordle 1,222 6/6

🟨⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛🟩
⬛🟩⬛⬛🟩
🟨🟩🟨⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

jlliagre

13:53

#travle #679 +2
🟧🟧✅✅✅
https://travle.earth

CowperKettle

Vikas

14:10

Mole gave me headache.

jlliagre

#WhenTaken #239 (23.10.2024)

I scored 868/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 9 km - 🗓️ 11 yrs - ⚡ 182 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 1299 km - 🗓️ 12 yrs - ⚡ 143 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 328 km - 🗓️ 9 yrs - ⚡ 176 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 354.7 metres - 🗓️ 3 yrs - ⚡ 197 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 368 km - 🗓️ 11 yrs - ⚡ 170 / 200

https://whentaken.com

CowperKettle

The Naked Sun

The Naked Sun is a science fiction novel by American writer Isaac Asimov, the second in his Robot series. Like its predecessor, The Caves of Steel, this is a whodunit story. It was first published in book form in 1957 after being serialized in Astounding Science Fiction between October and December 1956. == Plot == The story arises from the murder of Rikaine Delmarre, a prominent "fetologist" (fetal scientist), responsible for the operation of the planetary birthing center of Solaria, a planet politically hostile to Earth, whose death Elijah Baley is called to investigate, at the request of the...

"In 2023, a Persian translation was published in Iran"

In Russia, Asimov's books were quite popular as far back as the Soviet times.

I read "The End of Eternity" in childhood, although it was hard to understand, I was too young and much of it went over my head.

MetaEd

@CowperKettle 🎵 When the atoms you see are 6e23, that's a mole. 🎵

CowperKettle

14:46

@MetaEd Nice

jlliagre

@CowperKettle Not to confuse with the National Guacamole Day celebrated every 16 September.

CowperKettle

15:12

The Hidden Math Behind All Living Systems

►

Conrado

15:49

history.nebraska.gov/exhibit_mug_shots/goldie-williams

>
Goldie Williams defiantly crossed her arms for her Omaha Police Court Mug Shot.

Mitch

@CowperKettle 1) 2 hours and 45 minutes? Holy crap that's long.

2) That title... like saying "The hidden chemistry behind biology"

3) From the first seconds of the clip, sounds like the content has nothing to do with the title at all, it's just about agency and responsibility over AI agents.

Conrado

4) Who's hiding the math? I smell a conspiracy.

Mitch

Short answer: people are responsible. The engineer who designed and built the AI or the one who uses it on others is the one who is accountable.

It's scifi horseshit/literal mystical religion to consider a robot algorithm to be responsible for itself and punishable for what it does.

Vikas

@Mitch If we are blaming the AI, we are already falling in the trap made by AI.

Mitch

@Conrado The conspiracy is that they're trying to get you to believe there is a conspiracy, when there's no conspiracy.

Which means there -is- a conspiracy.

Which means there's not.

But really, the title is clickbait, because 'hidden' things are fun to expose like someone is doing it on purpose and has ulterior motives.

@Vikas if there is an actual trap it is the trap made by the people making the AI, not the AI itself.

Of course if there's a runaway robot that is murdering people with blue eyes, you smash the robot first, -then- you investigate where the AI came from and (if the murdering design was intentional) punish the creator, or (if it was a bad design or accident) fine the designer or create a regulation that stops people from designing that bad way again.

'blue' eyes was just an example. It could actually be any kind of person.

Also dogs.

Cats are on their own.

They can handle themselves pretty well is all I'm saying.

Cerberus

16:14

@Mitch Are you really saying there is a title on the Internet which is clickbait?

Mitch

@Cerberus I know it's a fringe view but yes, some things on the Internet might be misleading.

I'm hedging of course because the data is unclear.

Cerberus

I am gasping.

Mitch

@CowperKettle OK, listening and watching a little more, the guy isn't a crank, he's technical (has a PhD in ML from UTA). So whatever my first impressions, the video seems to be a summary of his PhD and postdoc research. He's using some buzzwords in a correct technical manner (eg 'surprisal' = amount of surprise in a feature which is technically defined as 'the negative log probability').

And the video is explaining some principles that he expects will go beyond or augment or replace (I can't tell yet which) the current fashion of Neural Nets.

@Cerberus Here, breathe into a paper bag.

But really the default of communication is trust, and if 'misleadingness' happens too often, you just stop bother listening or caring.

Unless you like the sound of their voice.

This guy is very ... nasal... like, please blow your nose before the interview.

I think it is possible to condense condense condense... to move from a full text to a summary to a short title and preserve a lot. But...

I don't know.

Sure a lot depends on context.

that allows a lot of compression.

"It all depends on the delivery"

haha

that was a joke

really

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, that is super annoying.

@Mitch I don't watch video, I think it is a bad, bad medium for most things.

Mitch

> Why are shipping jokes so funny? It's all in the delivery.

> Why are pregnancy jokes so funny? It's all in the delivery

Michael Rybkin

16:27

Hi, guys.

Is that fine English (the part in red)?

Cerberus

@alphabet He was acquitted of all the rape charges, for lack of proof. A case of violence had already been dropped. He was convicted of having sex with two 15-year-olds and sentenced to 1.5 years in prison, of which 8 months conditional, plus ca. €11,000 in damages and some other, minor sanctions.

Mitch

@Cerberus Depends on what it's being used for. It has some advantages over simple lecturing (to impart some kinds of information)

Cerberus

@MichaelRybkin It sounds odd to me.

At minimum, I would add hyphens.

But I would probably recast the sentence. What is it exactly that you want to say here?

Mitch

@MichaelRybkin Yes, it's fine. It sounds like... like it's a pitch for an investment ('step to success' via an object)

Michael Rybkin

@Cerberus Thank you. I was just asking. I wanted to know if that sounded normal to a native speaker.

@Mitch Thank you very much.

Cerberus

16:36

Perhaps something like, follow hese steps to install / connect to a virtual private network?

@alphabet During the session of the court where the defendant could plead his case, he said he was not specifically attracted to young men, adding: "I find prime minister Rutte super [geil] as well". where geil means something like "hot" but stronger and more vulgar like "horny, object of lust".

Michael Rybkin

Maybe.

alphabet

16:51

@Cerberus The acquittal seems somewhat surprising given the number of accusers, but thankfully the latter charges stuck.

Cerberus

Well, you do need proof for a conviction.

A number of accusers is not enough.

alphabet

@Cerberus How was that even supposed to help him? I'm not sure how also being attracted to older men would make him look better in the eyes of the court.

Cerberus

I think people don't like the accusation that they are only attracted to much younger.

It shouldn't matter to the law.

alphabet

I think that people dislike the accusation that they are attracted to younger people, regardless of whether they're also attracted to older ones.

But yes, in the eyes of the law he's responsible for the people he had sex with, not for the people he wanted to have sex with.

Cerberus

I think only makes a difference.

alphabet

16:57

Dunno.

Cerberus

How would you feel if I told you I was only attracted to people 20 years younger?

Alternatively, that I was attracted to people of all ages, young and old?

alphabet

That would depend on your age, and on what range you mean by "all ages."

Cerberus

20–60.

alphabet

Eh, I dunno.

Yes, probably worse to say "I'm 40 and only like 20-year-olds."

MetaEd

@Mitch why are insignia jokes so funny? It's all in delivery

M.A.R.

17:11

@MichaelRybkin Most people would not phrase it the way the author has, but: 1) Its meaning is clear, so the most important goal of communication has been met; 2) the author is probably of the sort that are proud of their numbered lists and quirky use of language, and 3) the hyphenation issue Cerb points out was not high on the author's priorities list. All in all, you shouldn't talk like that, but if I had to choose between yes and no on whether the author's sentence is wrong, I would choose no.

Cerberus

@alphabet Not objectively worse, but inviting more praejudice.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I propose that everyone carry around a special sort of ID with the "reasonably unobjectionable sexual preferences" stamp of approval from a mildly bureaucratic global organization. Like WSO.

Whoops, there already is a WSO.

Although I'm not sure what they're doing to prevent strokes.

MetaEd

@alphabet This is not quite true. As they say, intent is nine-tenths of the law. What you wanted helps determine the severity, both of the charge and of the sentence.

alphabet

17:30

@Cerberus Depends. When I was that age, I was certainly dumb, naïve, and confused enough that I could much more easily have been pulled into a relationship that'd've been disproportionately harmful to me. And there are people who'd try to take advantage of that.

@MetaEd I suppose it would affect the likelihood of recidivism, if nothing else.

MetaEd

For example, if you murdered someone but had no intent to murder someone, you are likely to be convicted of a lesser murder charge, such as "manslaughter". If you had no advance intent to murder someone, but momentarily intended to do so because you were overcome by rage, murder in the second degree. If you carefully planned in advance and then carried out a murder, murder in the first degree and in some jurisdictions that carries the possibility of execution.

If you slapped somebody, that's battery. Unless you had reason to believe it would kill them, and wanted that to happen, in which case it's intended murder.

CowperKettle

@Mitch Oh, nice! This channel feels to me like it's not a crank channel.

They tend to not go into hype.

MetaEd

sorry, *attempted murder

CowperKettle

> - What does this hat distribute?
- Property

> - Allo, is that Dasha?
- Da.
- Sha.
- A?
- Llo.

Cerberus

18:17

@M.A.R. Sounds good. I do not know that abbreviations.

@alphabet So?

Michael Rybkin

18:32

@M.A.R. Thank you.

Robusto

19:22

@MichaelRybkin I agree in the main with @M.A.R. The author is being a bit arch there, consciously inflating the heading of his little list with feigned importance, for humorous effect (however slight).

Of course, it's still possible that he's just a clunky writer playing it straight. But let's give him (her?) the benefit of the doubt.

GratefulDisciple

@MichaelRybkin Seeing "Windows NT 4.0" that text is more than 25 year old! Yes, it's fine English wise, those 3 words should be treated as a noun as "virtual private networking" which is a technical term referring to a network adapter commonly referred to as "VPN" now. The success here means that if the reader follows the steps, the VPN network adapter would have been set up successfully in the Windows NT 4.0 operating system. Now we would phrase it: "follow these steps to set up VPN."

@Cerberus Obviously the technical writer is more experienced in English composition rather than Windows system administration. It's hilarious to us IT people, but maybe not to a newbie.

Robusto

19:42

Daily Octordle #1003
3️⃣8️⃣
9️⃣7️⃣
5️⃣6️⃣
🔟🕚
Score: 59

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch This brings back memories, I was quite happy to use Windows 2000, a merger between the Windows 95 line with the server-grade Windows NT 4. What OS did you use back in 2000?

Robusto

Daily Sequence Octordle #1003
4️⃣6️⃣
7️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕛
🕐⓮
Score: 75

Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Oct. 23, 2024

T I G H T R O P E
✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ ✅ 🎉

My Score: 2350

Cerberus

19:58

@GratefulDisciple Hmm not sure I follow.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Sorry I assumed you're in IT. That text is from a user manual (presumably the company selling AltaVista Tunnel) on how to install a VPN network adapter using a 3rd party driver. So the instruction heading should have been "Once again, follow these steps to install the VPN (Virtual Private Networking) adapter successfully".

I used to do these kinds of things when using a hardware / component that is not included with Windows, using a 3rd party driver disc. This is before everything can be downloaded from the manufacturer's website. Boy, I feel old.

Nowadays, all these drivers would have come from Windows central repository for Microsoft tested drivers, and there is no need to do this kind of installation except for running the downloadable VPN client software.

library.e.abb.com/public/51061ac9a7733de6c12569e7005e20c9/…

alphabet

20:17

@Robusto I suspect clunky writing; those sorts of technical works are, IMO, often very poorly written. They could be a non-native speaker, though, in which case they'd have an excuse.

This often manifests as attempts to insert engaging, punchy language ("steps to success!") whenever possible, creating a jarring effect that jumbles up the overall structure.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I would have expected the opposite of what you said, considering the text—that the writer is less experiences in English composition.

alphabet

Normally I don't go on rants about writing style, but this irks me.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple And why add the word successfully?

@alphabet You're getting there.

alphabet

Likewise adding "Don't be afraid!" in the middle of one of the steps. You're trying too hard to give your readers a fun-filled experience when they just want to know how to use a gosh-darn VPN.

Cerberus

That doesn't sound like fun anyway.

Just basic corporate clichés.

I hope I'm not insulting anyone.

alphabet

20:33

Like those suburbanites who decorate their lawn with plastic pink flamingos. We get it, you "decorated," but maybe you could've just planted some flowers, make it blend in?

You could even adopt a writing style that sounds good because its structure makes it clear and elucidating. No need for the gewgaws and purple prose.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I was a computer science major, so I'll trust your judgment there. "successfully" seems to be more appropriate than "success" but better to leave it out, I agree.

@alphabet Exactly. In those days, my impression was that the technical writer was given assignment to make user manuals less odious and more inviting, but the effect maybe counterproductive.

MetaEd

roblox just emailed me with updated parental controls instructions for the account created for my daughter ... who is now 27 :D

Cerberus

@alphabet By Jove, the inner snob in your had awakened.

What is wrong with the plastic flamingos?

And why not gnomes like everybody else?

alphabet

Unless you're writing a poem or a certain kind of literary work, noticeably artful language seems ostentatious, like those tiny little handbags that look (and are) expensive but can't actually carry anything.

Cerberus

There are many expressions of aesthetics besides noticeable artfulness.

alphabet

20:47

@GratefulDisciple Exactly. I don't think anyone actually finds it more fun and enjoyable to read things with those turns of phrase tacked on.

Robusto

@alphabet I was trying to give it the best possible interpretation, which still went clunk but at least might have "some article of letters of or wit," as Rostand (translated) would put it.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus we're overthinking this i feel

Cerberus

The more thinking, the better?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus it's a sentence in the first edition of a book by computer nerds talking about . . . Nerdy things back in 1998.

It's so ancient it has the word "CD-ROM"

The universe itself was young back then

alphabet

@Robusto A piece of dull prose can only be made worse by sprinkling little bits of wit into it.

Cerberus

21:05

I remember when CD-ROM was the latest revolution in gaming.

@alphabet Not if the wit is actually witty.

Robusto

@alphabet Whatever a bad writer does is probably amusing to various degrees, but to be honest, some writing tasks (such as how to hook up a VPN) are not worthy of "good" writing. No one is going to turn a list of steps to hook up a VPN in NT 4.0 into Oscar Wilde.

Cerberus

If good writing means clarity, it could benefit from that.

M.A.R.

That would be nice though. We could call it OscarVPN

Cerberus

Why Oscar?

Robusto

@Cerberus I think clarity is the minimum standard here.

Unfortunately, too many fail at even that.

Cerberus

21:18

I think that can be improved by good writing.

alphabet

21:31

@Cerberus Few people know when and how to be witty without sounding pretentious and superficial. "When" usually doesn't include technical writing or most nonfiction prose. Maybe if you're Fran Lebowitz. Fight me.

Cerberus

Whence the if.

Robusto

@alphabet Of course, there remains the question that if it really is genuinely witty, the wit may fly over the heads of the readers—the more so if the task is mundane.

alphabet

@Robusto I don't think a technical manual written like an Oscar Wilde book would be considered good writing. Well-written explanations of technical matters should not sound literary.

Cerberus

Literature is broad.

Robusto

@alphabet You miss my point. As if it flew over your head? ^_^

alphabet

21:37

@Robusto Certainly a high level of clarity is far hard to achieve than sounding witty.

Cerberus

Sounding or actually being?

alphabet

@Cerberus Being witty also. Clever turns of phrase are easy enough to generate; a high degree of lucidity requires intellect rather than cleverness.

Robusto

@alphabet I disagree. But let me state more plainly now: It is not my position that journeyman prose ought to be witty. I can conceive that it could be so, and that a lighter tone may add interest to a boring subject, but such is not required or, most often, even welcome.

Cerberus

@alphabet Perhaps it depends on your definition of witty.

Robusto

@alphabet Does a boring subject have to be boring?

Cerberus

21:41

Nay, it need not.

alphabet

@Robusto If your topic is interesting, or you can persuade the reader to find it interesting, you can make it engaging without the cleverness mixed in. If your topic isn't interesting, wit will only make you sound irksome; getting your fingers caught in a doorjamb isn't boring either.

Robusto

@alphabet All depends on how you define cleverness.

M.A.R.

58 mins ago, by M.A.R.

@Cerberus we're overthinking this i feel

Robusto

Would you care to essay a definition?

M.A.R.

That uncapitalized I is annoying but look what you made me do

Robusto

21:53

@M.A.R. How dare you.

M.A.R.

I wasn't witty right at that moment

alphabet

@Robusto You know what's really well-written, IMO? That Atlantic article on MH370. I count zero clever turns of phrase or displays of wit in there. The author just doesn't need them.

M.A.R.

@alphabet OMG so what did happen to that? It's behind a paywall

alphabet

@M.A.R. If you're evil and don't wanna pay: archive.is/hxSjp

He gives a very persuasive explanation; I was convinced.

Mitch

22:09

@MetaEd Why are jokes about renting horses so funny? It's all in delivery.

@CowperKettle I looked at some of the other interviews on the channel and they seem 'not bad'. But I suspect despite the name that they'll still be fairly technical.

alphabet

Since he's a very good writer, he can engage you exceedingly well without the slightest sign of an attempt at being artful or clever or entertaining or, yes, witty. At least I think so.

Mitch

@MetaEd Finally!

@alphabet We recognize your irktion.

I came here to say that.

@GratefulDisciple some weird variety of unix (they're all weird), I don't think linux was out yet.

and the GUI? something like gnome or ... something like that.

Before that it was Windows 3.1... I remember getting all excited about when 3.1 was being released and all the cool new functions in the API being added to that for Windows 2.0. Also this fancy new concept of 'pre-emption' and 'running processes in the background'. Wild times.

@alphabet OK this whole line of discussion/non-disagreement was all triggered by one guy writing 'follow theses steps to VPN success'?

GratefulDisciple

22:33

@alphabet I usually enjoy reading The Atlantic articles; not sure whether you agree, but I feel their style is a cut above NYTimes/WSJ. Dare I say, semi literary?

@alphabet I blame the teacher of their business writing / technical writing course.

Mitch

@CowperKettle There's that other more famous guy... the guy who wears a suit... ah chatgpt told me... it's Lex Friedman. I don't listen to him because he talks to mostly popularizers (Sam Altman, other CEO types) which is fine but I kinda don't care what they say (they're just selling stuff no matter how good they sound.

I usually listen to Sam Charrington who hosts TWIML AI (This Week in Machine Learning). He mostly interviews PhDs and Postdocs and asst profs about their research. It's all very technical but is satisfying enough to me.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch When I was in the university, one computer lab was filled with a rather outdated Sun Microsystem workstations running SunOS Unix variety (BSD?) while another lab with HP workstations running HP Unix variety (maybe System V based). We used NFS for user files. I don't know how the CS Department sys admin deal with both varieties in the same network; but I have a feeling they were real sysadmins not like Windows admins today.

Both have their own port of X Window System. Wildly different concept from a PC GUI like Windows 3.1. I remember being amazed how on one workstation running the X server, we can have many xterminal windows running in many different unix boxes.

@Mitch Yup. wild times indeed. No true multitasking until NT kernel hits the masses with Windows 2000, but it looks like by that time you have given up Windows.

Mitch

@GratefulDisciple Yep. Windows is still an OS stuck in the 70s, and unix was always 30 years ahead.

@GratefulDisciple whenever I use a Windows frontend, I'm always annoyed.

like 'why did they choose to do -that-?'

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Any favorite Unix distro, shell, and file system?

Mitch

But I've been using a mac now for ~15 years, and while the UI is obviously better, I'm still kind of a novice and don't know where things are.

@GratefulDisciple No. I prefer not to have to deal with those kinds of choices.

GratefulDisciple

22:44

@Mitch I don't want to defend Windows in this space, but they made some progress and managed to provide a working Linux subsystem (WSL2).

Mitch

Debian, redhat, ubuntu...bash, tcsh, zsh... they shoujld just have the thing I need in the place I need it.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch So still "it just works" like what Steve Jobs promised?

Mitch

All the modern UIs hide the tree directory structure as much as possible, which I find very annoying... it's how I think.

@GratefulDisciple not always but more often than MS.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch I'm with you on that. If I start using Linux again, I'll choose a distro that makes the choices that are most stable and most widely used.

Sorry, gotta go. TTYL.

Mitch

later

M.A.R.

22:58

@alphabet I'm lawful neutral.

I mean, maybe true neutral.

Because I pirate a crapton of stuff and I'm not sorry.

Mostly movies and shows.

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