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21:00
@Mitch Or they could take a hard-line pro-natalist stance and expel any woman who hasn't had three kids by the end of sophomore year.
Teenage pregnancy is the only way to avoid the risk of becoming a childless cat lady.
@Mitch OMG such a crazy society!
@Cerberus At BYU, it used to be an honor code violation to hold hands with someone of the same sex.
Before 2000, Bob Jones University banned interracial (!) dating.
What us BYU?
@alphabet that's a bit extreme. 1 a year is possible but hard to sustain.
Bring Your Underwear, a party?
21:06
@Cerberus Brigham Young University, the one the Mormons run.
Unless they sign a pledge.
Ah.
Sounds like a fun place.
@Cerberus that's for some religious colleges. Some even have a pledge of 'beliefs' (I've only heard of this from two instances 2nd hand)
@alphabet that's just following good taste.
They also ban alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea. Other sources of caffeine are fine, though; I hear they consume a lot of Mountain Dew.
@Cerberus they have a very good computer graphics program.
21:09
Also you can't grow a beard unless some special circumstance requires it.
@alphabet coffee I understand. But tea? Nobody ever stayed up late because of tea.
@Mitch Mormon scripture bans "hot drinks," whatever that means.
@alphabet I'm not sure how that could possibly happen. Why would any 'other' race want to go there.
@Mitch A pledge of beliefs is less crazy than an academic institution's getting involved in the sex life of students.
@alphabet iced tea?
21:12
@alphabet How about decaffeinated tea?
@Cerberus it's almost 2025...how do they think either restriction would work?
Anyway...it looks like UATX is trying to be 'anti-woke' which is a pretty petty attitude to build a university on.
Black tea or green tea? I cannot choose.
@Mitch Yes, that, too.
@Mitch Now that sounds at least somewhat sensible...
@Xanne Can having the "wrong" accent ever keep you out of certain kinds of job in America?
Trump University was...I don't know? Just a poor investment? At least UATX is backed by a number of intelligent, if controversial, academics.
21:16
@tchrist Of course!
Well, probably as a hard block. But make it more difficult.
Like everywhere.
@Cerberus They don't call your women's lock-down freshman dormitories virgin vaults there? :)
@tchrist I can only guess what those are.
We do not have dormitories.
Except in a few non-standard minor colleges.
@Cerberus So a speaker of some twangy backwoods hillbilly dialect with nonstandard grammar might have trouble becoming a broadcast news anchor on a major network? :)
Reminder: The univ I was in has 4 dorms. Dorm of Liberty, Dorm of Justice, Dorm of Truth, and Dorm of Future.
21:19
@tchrist With non-standard grammar, I should think so? In your country and mine alike.
> It’s true that dropping g’s [i.e. pronouncing running as runnin'] is generally considered a less polished way of speaking (in most areas of the U.S.), and some people will read it as less educated. On the other hand, some people will find it charming and others won’t care one way or another.
@DannyuNDos Wow! Sounds like 1984 almost. Though also just East-Asian.
> It’s really up to you if it’s something you want to try to change or not. It’s not a “you must change this or you won’t get hired” thing, although it’s a “be aware that some employers may see you as less polished” thing.
@tchrist I think not. But language fluency and skill is different from accent.
@alphabet It is always like that, no hard yes or no.
21:21
@tchrist in the UK more and more BBC announcers have regional accents. But admittedly probably not cockney.
Well, I have a funny idea of nonstandard grammar I suppose. It's anything that you'd lose marks for in a high school essay. Things like brung for brought, or negative concord, or using ran for ran or swam for swum. You know.
@alphabet You really ought to have enough language skill that you can recognize when and when not to drop you g’s.
@Cerberus haven't we always been at war with East Asia?
The kind of thing you find in uneducated speakers.
Who've not had it drilt out of 'em yet. :)
@Xanne When ought one not to? It's not like there's something inherently wrong with it; the only reason to avoid it, if you speak an accent that has it, is that people might judge you for it.
21:23
@Mitch Haha I think there were different names?
@alphabet Of course. You get judged all the time.
@Mitch I thought the first armed Sino-Briton conflict postdated the American Revolution.
I think more and more schoolteachers are now being trained not to try to expunge common features of nonstandard dialects. I have a friend who's a schoolteacher and he got that sort of lesson.
I'm pretty sure that the accent=caste thing is why we have hypercorrection.
@alphabet That is one of the major driving forces behind personal aesthetics, so of course it not only includes clothes and hair, but also language and manners and everything you can think of that others perceive about you.
21:25
@Xanne And thus one can, in fact, not get hired due to one's accent.
Know your registers.
@alphabet Are you really helping the person, though? Instead of not giving him the means to express himself differently, you force him to expose himself to possible scorn later in life.
@tchrist Yes, it is one part.
@Xanne Registers? It seems more like faking an accent that isn't your native one; people whose native accents don't have pervasive G-dropping don't adopt it in any register.
@Cerberus It is indeed controversial. Of course one could fault the people heaping on the scorn, but there certainly can be cases where nonstandard dialects can confuse speakers of standard ones.
A seedy gramma and bad smelling is sure to always get you're job aplication tossed in the flaming insinkerator.
@tchrist it was a reference to '1984'
21:28
@alphabet It is a bit like the German pacifist movement. Let's not give weapons to Ukraine, because weapons are used to kill people.
@Cerberus I don't see the connection.
Speaking of 1984... Does any sort of doublethinking actually defuse the principle of explosion?
Paraconsistent logic is a thing, so
@alphabet Probably the case. But Americans where I live are extremely accent tolerant, but not so continually welcoming to people unwilling to adapt, perhaps.
21:30
@alphabet People shouldn't go to war, so we will not give our protégés weapons. Except that we cannot control how other parties will attack our protégés.
@DannyuNDos What is that principle?
@tchrist I've been told by a plumber, twice, that you really should put food scraps or really anything others than dirty dish water down the garbage disposal.
Also tea. No used tea leaves into the sink.
@Cerberus That is stated as: If there is one true contradiction, every proposition becomes simultaneously true and false.
@Mitch should or shouldn’t?
@DannyuNDos can you elaborate on what you mean here?
@Mitch Those devices are forbidden here, I think both to prevent sewers from getting blocked and to make purifying the waste water less hard.
21:33
Notice what Stephen COLbert did to his native South Carolina accent so that he could become what he is today: he transferred to Evanston so he could learn to speak right. :)
I mean... Was any person in the world of 1984 successful in non-trivial doublethinking?
@Cerberus the principle of explosion is Ex Falso Quodlibet
@DannyuNDos Hmm I'm afraid that is beyond me.
@Mitch I never knew you spoke Polish!
@Mitch Ahh that.
21:34
@Xanne argh... Should not
There is a common fallacy ignorant of that principle, isn't there.
Don't put any kind of food scraps down there (he said)
(Northwestern University being in Evanston IL, @Robusto's old stomping ground.)
@tchrist Yup. I was born there, in fact.
Mom had some sort of gig there for a while when I wasn't paying close attention.
21:35
@Xanne If people don't welcome those unwilling to adapt--that is, to alter the accent they speak with--I wouldn't call them "tolerant," if that's what you mean.
Here in California we must separate landfill, compostables (food scraps), and recyclables. Separating the food from the container takes a lot of water, though.
@Xanne Same in Boulder.
I don't want your stinky old turkey carcass in my compost.
@tchrist bows humbly and honorably
They tried to have some separate setup for food scraps apart from lawn stuff, but that didn't last.
The writer of that Ask a Manager letter later wrote an update to state that--as one would assume--they found it quite difficult to stop dropping g's at the ends of words; it requires you to start constantly paying attention to how you speak and remembering to adjust every time you see a word that would normally follow the g-dropping rules.
21:38
@Cerberus I'm not sure what you're thinking of there.
@alphabet But you may choose not to hire them if they cannot communicate effectively with customers and the public. This is part of effective assimilation.
You don't get a public-facing job if you're not well spoken. It just isn't going to happen.
There are (sound) logical systems where that doesn't happen, namely para consistent logics that @DannyuNDos mentioned
You're too crude and unpolished for that rôle.
@Mitch Never mind, it turned out to be only tangentially relevant.
21:39
@tchrist all the groundhogs and raccoons in our neighborhood would be happy for it
Think of it like the required coat and tie.
@Cerberus ::saluting emoji::
@Xanne How does this work? You rinse used packaging, catch the food particles to separate them from the water?
@Xanne I don't think anyone has trouble understanding accents with that particular feature; those speakers can communicate just fine. People just stigmatize those accents because of a correlation with class/race/education. If you demand that people assimilate, you can't say you're also being tolerant.
@Mitch Sir, I have statutorily required contra-ursine modifications to my Herculean rubbish bins, thank you very much!
21:41
Here, any category may contain remains of food, as long as it isn't too much. No need to rinse jars before putting them into the recycle bin.
@Mitch Haha.
@Mitch Well, I agree with your plumber. I just don’t know how to put all those leftovers together for composting.
@Cerberus I always feel compelled to rinse them out. Not wash like plates, but at least mostly clean.
@alphabet One thing is that people don't like things that seem ugly to them. That is why we try not to do ugly things or seem look ugly.
Peanut butter jars are the worst.
It's like how there are jobs where if you won't wear a tie, you can't be a [insert whatever]. It reflects poorly on your employer. If you refuse to use correct grammar and spelling, you will not be allowed to occupy a rôle where that would risk harming your employer's reputation.
21:43
@Mitch Well, here the official guidelines say: don't rinse!
@Xanne it takes a special extra trash container in your house I suppose?
And I never rinse plates either. I merely scrape off big bits of food if a guest was uncouth enough not to finish his plate.
@Mitch Three have I.
@Xanne I agree with the plumber also, after having him visit twice over the years for the same thing.
@Cerberus Exactly; the reason why it might be beneficial to change one's accent is that others might dislike it. Of course, in many cases it's their fault for disliking it, but you can't change that.
21:44
If you hire a prostitute, you want him to look beautiful.
@Cerberus is an inner drive that is hard to stop
@alphabet Kind of. But you may also like the standard accent more yourself.
That said, I wouldn't work for an employer that required me to wear a suit and tie everyday; I'm sure there are people who wouldn't want to work for an employer who would dislike their native accent.
@Cerberus but of course tangents are why we are here.
@Cerberus We need more sex gender in our tongue so that I don't get garden pathed so quickly.
21:46
@Cerberus Yes, but I think it'd be easier and more beneficial to stop disliking yourself than to change how you talk.
@Mitch My colleague used to do this as well. Do you know Sandwich Spread? It had dairy and is quite acidic. He would leave bottle of that to soak on the countertop, for like a week.
@Cerberus wow that took a turn I wasn't expecting
@Mitch Next time try for a gull, you might like 'er!
@tchrist Hah, what was the path in this case, then?
@alphabet Not disliking yourself: disliking your own accent yourself.
@alphabet what's wrong with just code switching. Speak one way at home, another at work.
21:48
@Cerberus Either way.
@Cerberus I conjured up a lipsicky trollop in ruby stilettos.
@Mitch Took a turn or turn a trick?
I don't wear no tie at home.
Or at work.
But you get my point.
Not a buff and buxom beast of fine regard.
@tchrist Ah, the heart's eye.
21:48
Buxom? Nope.
@Mitch The problem is that, if you haven't grown up learning how to code switch, you might find it difficult to learn how to do so. (See: the follow-up to that Ask a Manager letter.)
@Mitch That's double negation, isn't it?
@tchrist is she blue footed?
@Mitch ducks
@Cerberus If you're hiring a spokesman or a salesman, you want him to talk beautiful, but usually you aren't.
21:50
@Cerberus no, what is 'Sandwich Spread'? It sounds a little too generic.
Whenever we would e.g. put elbows on the table or eat with only one hand, my mother would say, I'm teaching you this just in case you ever have supper with the queen. You can decide later in life what you will do with the skill.
@Mitch It's a You Kay thing, also pronounced yucky.
@alphabet It is always nice to talk to someone who speaks well. It is just much less important in many positions, but it is always a positive.
Heinz Sandwich Spread is a blend of salad cream and relish manufactured by Heinz and popular in the Netherlands and Britain. It is classified by the manufacturer as a sauce or relish. The relish ingredients are spirit vinegar, sugar, cabbage (contains preservative: sulphites), rapeseed oil, water, carrots, gherkins (contain firming agent: calcium chloride), modified cornflour, salt, onions, egg yolks, red peppers, mustard, stabilisers: guar gum and xanthan gum, spice extracts, spices, herb extract (contains celery), flavourings and colour: riboflavin; vegetables 35%. The salad cream base results...
@DannyuNDos yes. I mean no. Or rather -not- no.
21:51
@Mitch The name is as bad as the thing.
Salad cream is a creamy, pale yellow condiment based on an emulsion of about 25–50 percent oil in water, emulsified by egg yolk and acidulated by spirit vinegar. It is somewhat similar in composition to mayonnaise, but mayonnaise is made with oil as its main constituent whereas salad cream is based on vinegar and water. Both salad cream and mayonnaise usually include other ingredients such as sugar, mustard, salt, thickener, spices, flavouring and colouring. The first ready-made commercial product was introduced in the United Kingdom in 1914, where it is used as a salad dressing and a sandwich...
*Cough* No wonder why double negation cannot be eliminated in intuitionistic logic.
@tchrist bobs and weaves
@DannyuNDos I think he's saying he always wears a tie at home.
We probably have the affordable tech to record a person 24/7 for a week or so, and identify register or dialect changes in their speech with different kinds of people or in different places.
21:54
I'm sure it has been done.
@Cerberus Of course, one's judgments about which forms of speech are better than others may themselves be considered objectionable.
@tchrist thems a lot of ingredients.
Especially clarity and brevity are widely appreciated.
How can you tell which one is which?
@Mitch UPF ALERT * UPF ALERT * UPF ALERT * UPF ALERT
21:55
I would guess it varies quite a lot and systematically, so resistant to change or not, human beings are linguistically sophisticated.
@tchrist I deny not keeping silent on that
Language is to a large part about culture and aesthetics. The functional part is often fairly trivial.
@Mitch One is the soul of wit, the other a young Bordeaux.
Hah.
@Cerberus I'd try it at least once
If it were free
21:56
What is a name of a kind of wine that also begins with clar-?
@Cerberus It's about aesthetics rather than function because people care about trivial things and neglect important ones.
@Mitch As long as you don't leave pots of it to soak everywhere.
Salad cream variety = Durkee’s Dressing. Great stuff.
No clarion...
Claret?
@tchrist plonk
21:58
I think it is claret.
Yes.
Claret it is. Drink up!
I think that is what Tom alluded to.
Or clarinet.
That's a varietal of instrument.
A wine from the Bordeaux?
> Claret (/ˈklærɪt/ KLARR-it) is a name primarily used in British English for red Bordeaux wine. Claret derives from the French clairet, now a rare dark rosé, which was the most common wine exported from Bordeaux until the 18th century.[29] The name was anglicised to "claret" as a result of its widespread consumption in England during the period in the 12th–15th centuries that Aquitaine was part of the Angevin Empire and continued to be controlled by Kings of England for some time after the Angevins. It is a protected name within the European Union, describing a red Bordeaux wine, accepted
22:00
Can you imagine having to work with someone who mispronounced claret?
Noun: clairet (countable and uncountable, plural clairets)
  1. A full-bodied and deep-coloured type of rosé wine from the Bordeaux region.
  2. clairet m (plural clairets)
  3. claret (wine)
  4. an infusion of fragrant plants in honeyed wine
Adjective: clairet (feminine clairette, masculine plural clairets, feminine plural clairettes)
  1. claret coloured
Or valet
Oh, no...
Or aluminum
@Cerberus NEVER! If they said it like char I should never speak with them again.
22:00
Or laboratory
Noun: claret (countable and uncountable, plural clarets)
  1. (chiefly UK) A dry red wine produced in the Bordeaux region of France, or a similar wine made elsewhere.
  2. Synonym: (Australia) traditional dry red
  3. Coordinate terms: hock, sack, tent
  4. The New Sporting Magazine (volume 15, page 23)
  5. The vesper bell had rung its parting note; the domini were mostly caged in comfortable quarters, discussing the merits of old port; and the merry student had closed his oak, to consecrate the night to friendship, sack, and claret.
(2 more not shown…)
Adjective: claret (comparative more claret, superlative most claret)
  1. Of a deep purplish-red colour...
@tchrist Yeah! That's ever lower class than claray.
I don't get why Hite-Jinro doesn't produce any wine.
> The vesper bell had rung its parting note; the domini were mostly caged in comfortable quarters, discussing the merits of old port; and the merry student had closed his oak, to consecrate the night to friendship, sack, and claret.
His oak: a table? Chest?
And what is sack here: bed? Wine bag?
22:03
Writing tablet?
Or musical instrument?
Sack = sherry
Ahh.
@Mitch Could be!
Oak is probably a store of bottles.
@tchrist is 'sack' badly named after some foreign region also?
22:04
Sack is an antiquated wine term referring to white fortified wine imported from mainland Spain or the Canary Islands. There was sack of different origins such as: Canary sack from the Canary Islands, Malaga sack from Málaga, Palm sack from Palma de Mallorca, and Sherris sack from Jerez de la Frontera. The term Sherris sack later gave way to sherry as the English term for fortified wine from Jerez. Since sherry is practically the only one of these wines still widely exported and consumed, "sack" (by itself, without qualifier) is commonly but not quite correctly quoted as an old synonym for sherry...
Sorry for the random weird starring... Typing in a phone and the screen is so tiny I keep pressing the nearby buttons.
Dry sack is a standard term. Goo Glit.
> The Collins English Dictionary, the Chambers Dictionary, and the Oxford English Dictionary all derive the word "sack" from the French sec, meaning "dry".
> Today, sack is sometimes seen included in the name of some sherries, such as the Williams & Humbert brand "Dry Sack"
It also comes in an Oloroso.
Which is medium-sweet, despite being called Dry Sack. :)
I prefer the Amontillado. There's also a Fino. All branded as Dry Sack by W&H.
The Fino actually is dry.
More UATX stuff:
> On Twitter, Weiss's former colleague Nikole Hannah-Jones, along with others, drew comparisons with Trump University.[3][18][16][44][45][46] Writing in The Washington Post, political scientist and journalist Daniel W. Drezner called comparisons between UATX and Trump University "unkind and untrue".[18] John Warner at Inside Higher Ed said "I think it is unfair to call it a scam or grift, because I have high confidence that the intentions behind the project are sincere."
Which kinda says to me it also has a lot of similarities to Trump U.
22:13
aye
The word university is used so lightly.
@tchrist I prefer my Amontillado in casks.
@Cerberus ’tis
@Cerberus the 2024 and incoming student class size is 100. Hard to have more than one college with that.
Does that mean the entire institution will only have 100 students during the first period?
22:15
It'll attract a lot of kids who are ideologically... Outside the Overton window.
@Cerberus yes, in the first year.
Eg highschool bitcoin miners, any randian libertarians, mesiah-Napoleon complexes.
No political correctness would seem a relief from all the drama, but otherwise it doesn't sound great...
@tchrist that seems a little harsh. Maybe just dangle them out there by their feet.
@Cerberus a lot of political correctness or wokeness is simply being polite and not assuming things about others.
Sure there are language policing annoyances, but tolerance and education is good for that
Messiah complexes. Argh.
@Mitch I don't mean that.
I mean that part that riles most people up.
That causes drama.
22:25
@Mitch Courtesy is not imposing your feelings on others.
You don't want to make someone uncomfortable.
Agreed.
@Cerberus I have already seen 'claret' used in English but neither claret nor clairet in French. I know clairette (de Die) though.
Clairette de Die (French pronunciation: [klɛʁɛt də di]) AOC is a natural sparkling white wine from the Rhône Valley region in France. It is made from the Muscat Blanc à Petits Grains (75% minimum) and Clairette (25% maximum) grape varieties. It is characterized by its peach and apricot flavours and rose and honeysuckle aromas, and is usually drunk young at a maximum of two years, and served chilled at a temperature of 6°C to 8°C. Crémant de Die from the same area and same producers is a prestige dry, natural sparkling wine of apple and green fruit flavours and fragrance and is vinified by...
Oh, funny.
@jlliagre I bet I actually was thinking of that one because I was thinking of the one you have to drink young.
Notice how historically, people who live on islands with high population density had to be most careful of their manners so as not to inconvenience others. Think of Britain and Japan, at least in the more refined social circles. You can't be flailing your arms all about without often banging into the next person the way you can get away with in the wide open spaces where there aren't likely to be so many people so close to you, like I dunno Russia or Korea. :)
Haha nice pseudo-science.
22:37
I can concoct a Just-So story about just about anything at the drop of a hat.
In science and philosophy, a just-so story is an untestable narrative explanation for a cultural practice, a biological trait, or behavior of humans or other animals. The pejorative nature of the expression is an implicit criticism that reminds the listener of the fictional and unprovable nature of such an explanation. Such tales are common in folklore genres like mythology (where they are known as etiological myths – see etiology). A less pejorative term is a pourquoi story, which has been used to describe usually more mythological or otherwise traditional examples of this genre, aimed at children...
Certain grandfathers are natural story-tellers.
Why is it called that?
@Cerberus Riles up most people where? In your circles? In your country? In typical colleges? It varies quite a lot.
Once upon a time there was an ancient Confusion master named So who would create simple stories about animals that hid a moral lesson within them.
Confusionism has become more and more popular ever since then.
@alphabet Most places.
@Cerberus Most places on the entire planet?
22:47
Do you really think political correctness is not a prominently controversial thing?
@alphabet Places where people are exposed to it enough.
@Cerberus I don't deny that it's controversial, though the nature and scope of the controversy varies widely between what space you're in.
@Cerberus That still isn't specific enough, I think, to determine which aspects "rile most people up."
I'm sure you see people react to it in the media, if not in your circles.
@Cerberus Falling in line with the radicals' imposed lingo is controversial? Imagine that!
In this very chat room.
@tchrist Yeah I can't believe that people do not know this makes lots of others annoyed or angry.
22:51
Putin does this.
Both thought that their definitions were obvious and that they made it clear which parts of "wokeness" everyone was finding controversial. But they were actually quite different!
> Among the general population, a full 80 percent believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” Even young people are uncomfortable with it, including 74 percent ages 24 to 29, and 79 percent under age 24. On this particular issue, the woke are in a clear minority across all ages.
@Cerberus Yes, but there's so much diversity in what people react to that I'm not sure what claims bother "most people."
I think it is obvious enough.
The clarity of enlightenment only ever comes to a slim minority of skinny navel gazers.
22:53
@Cerberus I don't dispute that. But people mean very different things when they try to explain the scope of "political correctness."
The rest all fall asleep.
It seems clear enough.
36 mins ago, by Cerberus
No political correctness would seem a relief from all the drama, but otherwise it doesn't sound great...
@Cerberus I know, of course, the kinds of claims and opinions that people have associated with "political correctness," but some people include, and are bothered by, a much wider range than others.
I feel like I have something to bring to this conversation, but I am not sure what yet, nor am I sure whether the conversation will be improved or worsened by my contribution.
@alphabet The kind that causes drama, which is most of it.
22:55
Hence my asking what people you mean by "most people"; without knowing the exact group (and probably without polls) I don't think I can say much about it.
@SophieSwett Maybe you can whisper it into someone's ear first.
I feel like this is going to again become stupidly ugly, so I'm going to go run up a hot mountain behind my house now to clear my head of this poisonous nonsense before it boils over. "Please" behave in here.
@alphabet I think it is clear enough.
Hermit's privilege.
@tchrist Right, I do not want this conversation either.
22:56
@Cerberus Causes drama among whom? Different things cause drama in different groups. What exactly does "most of it" include?
I will gracefully leave the topic be.
@alphabet Like this!
Deliberately causing harm is not acceptable.
So let's not.
A better topic is, should the AfD be banned?
I really don't want to want it.
But they are so horrible.
@Cerberus A final word: I'm not going to pretend I don't know which claims people tend to find PC or un-PC. But it's a spectrum, and different people draw the line of what they consider objectionable at very different places along it.
Now I'll shut up also.
A somewhat weak truth?
Yay.
22:59
english.stackexchange.com/questions/204112/… – This question reminds me of how at a recent job, at a company called Medallion, several of my coworkers frequently used phrases such as "some of that jazz" and "all that other jazz"—generalizations of "all that jazz."
I asked who got it from whom, and nobody had any idea. They just thought of it as an ordinary thing; they didn't realize it was a Medallionism.
It is funny how that works!
This can even happen with family slang.
@SophieSwett "Jazz" generalised like "stuff"?
@Cerberus That's a tricky one. No clue. They don't seem much farther to the right than, say, Marine Le Pen's party or Geert Wilders', but...it's Germany. I'd be nervous.
@alphabet I would say they are farther to the right than Le Pen.
And much more so than Wilders.
They actually say Nazi things.
@Cerberus Yeah. Taking the "jazz" in "all that jazz," taking it to mean "stuff," and using it to form other phrases.
Len Pen kicked the AfD out of their European party.
@SophieSwett I suppose it seems like a somewhat natural development to me.
23:06
@Cerberus Ah, didn't know that.
Not all of them are so bad, but enough are, and the radical element seems to have dominance now.
Whereas Le Pen's party has become a bit less radical.
Le Pen Senior was quite radical.
Of course in the US you could never legally ban a political party like you can (under certain circumstances) in much of Europe.
It is not easy here.
You need to show that it is a criminal organisation.
Freedom is speech is a bit less here, but that is still very difficult.
As I understand it, banning parties is possible in those countries because people wanted to be able to stop fascism from reemerging.
Kind of.
I also think we have always had a bit less freedom of speech than you.
In mean in the law only, not in society as a whole.
23:09
Whereas here...well, there was an American Nazi Party (who allied themselves with the Black Panthers, oddly enough) but they never gained much traction.
Democrats like to call Trump a fascist, of course, for the same reason Republicans like to call Kamala Harris a communist.
Parties are usually only banned when they become a threat...
I wouldn't call Trump a fascist.
He has some glorification of masculinity and nationalism, but less of violence and racial purity.
He is somewhat authoritarian but not extremely so.
I mean that, when America was founded, there wasn't a sense that banning parties might be necessary to saving democracy (though there was a view that political parties are intrinsically so evil that the constitution should try to prevent them from forming).
Your system is just far more restrictive.
And that sense never really developed since we never had a party that tried to overthrow the democratic order like the Nazis did.
New parties are just prevented from forming systematically in the first place.
They can't gain any traction.
23:13
@Cerberus He's also not aiming at territorial expansion, which historically has been a fairly crucial element.
Can be!
I'm not entirely sure fascists need territorial expansion.
Arguably the leader closest to a literal fascist today is Narendra Modi, whose party's paramilitary wing was founded by people trying to emulate the Nazis and hasn't changed since.
But it can certainly be part of it.
Does banning political parties actually work? It seems like banning a particular political position will only serve to make the people who hold that position feel like they're being oppressed.
@alphabet Hmm.
He is still a lot less militarist and violent and authoritarian than, say, Putin.
@SophieSwett It is debatable.
In Belgium, the party just rebooted under a new name.
And, yeah, it may make people even angrier.
And it is a great infraction on liberalism.
23:17
@SophieSwett It would work much less well in the US. If you tried to (say) ban the Republican party and any potential successor thereto, all its candidates could run for reelection as independents in their home districts.
See the paradox of liberalism.
Party-list-based systems make it more effective.
Then they can just create a new party.
Banning a party usually comes with banning important figures from politics.
I have some friends that hold some views that certain sectors of society find unacceptable. They haven't changed those views, of course; they just view those sectors of society as a political opponent instead.
Yeah.
But it may stop others from joining.
And it may cause some to be scared and change their views.
23:20
@Cerberus But then you could ban the new party before it gains much traction, no?
And it may make some say they have different views; and saying X repeatedly often makes one believe X more.
@alphabet If everyone know it is the same party, it could gain traction almost instantly.
@Cerberus But if you do it before the next election cycle that would nip it in the bud, no?
Can you see when Vlaams Blok was banned?
@alphabet Maybe if you did it after the ballots had been printed already.
23:56
@Cerberus Make Prussia Germany Great Again! would be more than mildly disconcerting to really a whole lot of people, eh?
A tad!
I actually wouldn't be surprised if some in the Afd said that.
Do you know what AfD hardliners call East Germany?
Maybe you can guess...
Not something referencing Prussia, I hope.
Middle Germany.
So, yes.
Ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch.
Look out Poland. Look out Königsberg. Look out lots of folks.
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