English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:00

@jlliagre Well, yes. The Cathars, for example.

jlliagre

St. Bartholomew's Day massacre

The St. Bartholomew's Day massacre (French: Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy) in 1572 was a targeted group of assassinations and a wave of Catholic mob violence directed against the Huguenots (French Calvinist Protestants) during the French Wars of Religion. Traditionally believed to have been instigated by Queen Catherine de' Medici, the mother of King Charles IX, the massacre started a few days after the marriage on 18 August of the king's sister Margaret to the Protestant King Henry III of Navarre. Many of the wealthiest and most prominent Huguenots had gathered in largely Catholic Paris to...

Robusto

Yes, and those as well.

Cerberus

Religions are bad.

jlliagre

Albigensian Crusade

The Albigensian Crusade (French: Croisade des albigeois), also known as the Cathar Crusade (1209–1229), was a military and ideological campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, what is now southern France. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political aspect. It resulted in the significant reduction of practicing Cathars and a realignment of the County of Toulouse with the French crown. The distinct regional culture of Languedoc was also diminished. The Cathars originated from an anti-materialist reform movement within...

Affair of the Sausages

The Affair of the Sausages (1522) was the event that sparked the Reformation in Zürich. Huldrych Zwingli, pastor of Grossmünster in Zurich, Switzerland, spearheaded the event by publicly speaking in favor of eating sausage during the Lenten fast. Zwingli defended this action in a sermon called Von Erkiesen und Freiheit der Speisen (Regarding the Choice and Freedom of Foods), in which he argued, from the basis of Martin Luther's doctrine of sola scriptura, that "Christians are free to fast or not to fast because the Bible does not prohibit the eating of meat during Lent." == History == Ul...

What a difference a sausage makes.

Cerberus

It was apparently a big thing there.

Robusto

00:13

It's interesting how the printing press precipitated the turbulence of Reformation by freeing up information (in this case, the Christian bible), similar to the Internet's insemination today, which allows the dissemination of information unfiltered by responsible journalism. A parallel to half a millennium ago.

Cerberus

Quite similar indeed.

Are we the Catholics now?

GratefulDisciple

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Agree with @tchrist, no it doesn't. See this simple chart:

(guess I'm too late)

Robusto

@Cerberus I sure hope not.

Cerberus

You have enough experience with them.

Robusto

@Cerberus Quite enough.

GratefulDisciple

00:33

@Cerberus Should I say "social identity"? Also, probably I should say "Indonesian-born Chinese American Christian" if the Christian identity is the most important. Adjective word order is reversed between Indonesian and English language.

CowperKettle

00:54

The Secret Behind Creative Brains

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CowperKettle

01:16

> It found that a course of beta blockers made it 27 percent more likely that someone would die within 30 days of their heart surgery. That is, the policy which Don Poldermans had recommended using falsified data, adopted in Europe on the basis of his research, was actually dramatically increasing the odds people would die in heart surgery. vox.com/future-perfect/368350/…

alphabet

01:45

@GratefulDisciple That graphic does illustrate the basic problem with this approach: it contains two entries where ride is the main verb of the sentence ("He rides a bike" and "He rode a bike") and then ten where it's embedded in one or more subordinate clauses.

Cerberus

I see no subordinate clauses.

Unless you use an unusual definition of clause.

alphabet

"He was [riding a bike]" has the same structure as "He kept [riding a bike]."

"He will [ride a bike]" has the same structure as "He can [ride a bike]."

("He has [ridden a bike]" is a bit exceptional, since other verbs with past-participial complements have a passive interpretation, but clearly "has" isn't a dependent: in that case, the present perfect would be "He has rides a bike" and the past perfect would be "He has rode a bike.")

Cerberus

I have no idea what that is all about.

GratefulDisciple

02:51

@Cerberus Yes. It made me sad, or bewildered, as I learned more Christian history, how much violence, abuse, wars, and coercion was done in the name of religion. Religions are supposed to help people and become the basis for justice, human rights, and human flourishing; all positive things. There should have been competition among religions on which one is the best to help people to achieve those goals, like competing smartphones, or OS, or cloud services.

So one of my goals for the rest of my life is to contribute a small part in making religions, esp. Christianity, to at least make sense philosophically and can be plausibly helpful for someone psychologically to deal with his/her life issues. Also to promote greater awareness of how faith, reason and culture (including literature and language resources in this site) can be harmoniously intertwined for the betterment of humanity.

@Robusto I feel it too, among my Christian circles; those movements that are media savvy and led by celebrity leaders may not be responsibly promoting the right kind of Christianity.

@alphabet I'm also confused. What do you think should be a better example?

Vikas

03:08

Cerberus

Haha almost.

@GratefulDisciple Might it not be better to do all this using science and non-supernatural philosophy/psychology?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I would definitely start with science and non-supernatural philosophy/psychology, sure. Until one realizes it's not enough. That's my preferred approach; there's no inherent conflict between those disciplines with theology rightly done. So I will definitely not start with preaching, but trying to see the world from my conversation partner's eyes first.

That's why to me Eleonore Stump's approach is so refreshing, since she starts from the other end: humanity. I'm working through her trilogy right now: Wandering in the Darkness: Narrative and the Problem of Suffering, Atonement, and The Image of God: The Problem of Evil and the Problem of Mourning.

That way I can maximize my common ground with all people, regardless of their view / religion.

M.A.R.

03:25

@GratefulDisciple the issue is of course, that 'realizing it's not enough' will never happen as it goes against the very spirit of scientific enquiry.

GratefulDisciple

Maybe unconsciously my Indonesian background helped a little, since religious tolerance was formally defined in constitution without the nation devolving into atheism or strange religions, via the inculcation of Pancasila since I was in elementary school.

M.A.R.

There is no point at which one can reasonably stop and say "this unexplained but observable phenomenon will never be answered with science."

Explanations of phenomena that aren't observable using available tools are discarded due to the burden of proof.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. Re: "goes against the very spirit of scientific enquiry" Not necessarily, depending on the philosophy of science used. I think through their methods scientists limit the investigation to what can be verifiable, and by this limit, the supernatural are not part of the domain, thus if they are not infected by atheistic philosophy, they should have been agnostic. Catholics (who are among the denomination most friendly to science) have no problem working with atheist scientists.

Cerberus

I like the word "infected".

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple what philosophy of science allows for the application of the scientific method yet the admission that some provable phenomena will never be described using science?

GratefulDisciple

03:30

@Cerberus My co-religionists can be "infected" by fideism too, which grieves me, because they subsume science under faith instead of demarcating domains for maximum reach of what can be discovered using scientific principle. So do Christians promoting Young Earth Creationism.

Cerberus

Alas!

M.A.R.

To the ancient Greeks, lightning and thunder were in some way supernatural. Then science explained them. Should they have ascribed them to a God? They did. What good did it do?

Perhaps the harms of believing in Greek gods are faded but belief in a pantheon of gods never helped anything.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. I don't quite follow here. Who makes that admission, the theologian or the scientist?

@M.A.R. I was very happy when natural philosophy started in ancient Greece with the pre-socratic natural philosophers who were the first atomist like Democritus or the first that proposed water to be the essence of everything like Thales. And for psychology, Aristotle didn't depend on God for his theory. I'm happy because they progressed from superstition into philosophy.

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple You're saying there are philosophies of science that allow for segragating phenomena into the realm of scientifically explainable and eternally supernatural. In other words, how can a scientist ascribe some phenomenon to a supernatural being without contradicting the spirit of scientific discovery -- the attempts to explain that thing through physical laws?

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. "how can .... without contradicting...". One way is to segregate the activities that are "doing science" with "doing prayer" and "doing theology" as 3 activities with 3 mutually exclusive principles. Then a medical doctor who is also a research scientist and who is an avid reader of theology can do all three without internal contradiction, yes?

M.A.R.

03:40

@GratefulDisciple What is the purpose of the prayer, and who shall receive it? God is not observable.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. When I'm praying, I'm not doing science (or in my case, not doing programming or troubleshooting my computer). In my decades of software development, I never once prayed so that my bugs are automagically fixed. But of course, prayer presupposes the existence of a listener. Otherwise, why pray?

As for "God is not observable" part, yes, my theology says God is spirit, so no scientific instruments can be used. The only instrument I can use to "observe" (or more appropriately, "discern" / "listen") is my soul.

M.A.R.

It's like governing your life in two absolutely opposite ways: In all the mundane everyday activities, activities where you can easily decide what wins and what fails, you try things that have been shown to work, or you think will work. Then, in the realm of the spiritual, you abandon all of such logic and mutter words with unknowable effects.

That is the contradiction I'm talking about.

I can't fit faith into my life.

Cerberus

Better mutter a nice sonnet, then.

Or a blasphemous apo...

M.A.R.

God remains elusive for me, and the only reason I'm even considering his (?) existence is because nice people have said he exists before.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. There is much logic in theology. It's just I see spiritual activities as another dimension in my day to day activities involving material things. It's within my soul that the activities are synthesized, because there is only one "me".

Cerberus

03:46

What is the Greek word again, there is something with apo- meaning saying something bad?

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I mean that the normal approach used to explain and teach tense and aspect in English is deeply flawed, based on an attempt to make English look more similar to languages that actually do have (say) a genuine inflected future tense and perfect aspect.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Niceness is not wisdom.

Dannyu NDos

I mean, as a wise man (namely Niezsche) once said, pray if you wanna be happy, but ask if you wanna obey truth.

Cerberus

@alphabet It's fine if you use it correctly, I would say.

@Cerberus I shall ask GPT.

Dannyu NDos

I'm sacrificing my own happiness to approach the truth. That's what scientists do.

M.A.R.

03:49

@GratefulDisciple but, why? What does it help? What does it do? And many people that believe as you do say I will be punished for my skepticism, without ever being persuasive. What's your position on that?

@Cerberus well thing is I haven't heard all that they have to say. What if there's something persuasive other there?

The chances are slim, I admit.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. For Christians, the purpose of prayer are at least three: 1) to act on the impulse to worship a greater being which you perceive with your mind's eye (or heart); 2) to ask for help in making yourself more virtuous / loving; 3) to petition for peace / solution when realizing your mortality / limitations YET there is such need that you yourself cannot do on your own (let's say your plane is going down or you got hit by cancer yet your kids are still small).

M.A.R.

More than slim. Malnourished beriberi 17 BMI slim.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. A million people say a billion things. Why pick one thing that has not resulted in anything tangible despite exhaustive study?

Beriberi?

I only know piri-piri.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus well, I'm just saying my position on the matter. I certainly don't go around every day wondering if God(s) exist(s) any more than how religious people around me force the conversation on me.

I don't fixate on it.

Cerberus

Do you think most of your friends are religious?

alphabet

03:54

@GratefulDisciple It is worth noting that no founder of any major world religion saw what they were doing as "starting a new religion" to compete with others. The idea of religions as a set of discrete entities sharing a common purpose and competing for minds in a sort of free market is a fairly modern Western one.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus no, it's mostly whenever the TV is on.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. When looking at the above 3 needs of prayer; of course science doesn't offer anything. So sometimes religion makes sense only when someone discovered one of those 3 needs. Oh, I remember one other category or a sub-category of #1: when you are so happy of your circumstances (maybe because of fortuitous sequence of events, like meeting the love of your life) that you want to thank someone but no proper beneficiary of your thankfulness.

alphabet

It's a particularly odd fit for (say) Chinese folk religion, where you have a bunch of overlapping kinda-cultural-kinda-religious practices with a lot of syncretism and few clear boundaries between traditions.

Dannyu NDos

As far how my theology goes, there is a proper class of gods, and I pick whom to worship. I cannot choose them all because some faiths are contradictory. Kudos to myself.

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple that's a very common argument and I've found it baseless. If I don't have the impulse to cry God in duress, will I go to hell?

Dannyu NDos

03:57

And I don't understand those who insists gods are people.

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos too much D&D

Dannyu NDos

I mean, there is no reason for physists to reject the idea of this universe itself is a god.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Oh, turn it off.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. No. If you're interested, I wrote an answer based on Eleonore Stump's other interview videos on the proper understanding of "hell". In How Does Salvation Works she explained to Robert about being "in the process" even though you may not realize it.

Cerberus

Why would anyone who doesn't believe in the supernatural want to hear details about it?

It is only interesting if you believe in it. I meant interesting internally, not as a sociological phaenomenon.

M.A.R.

04:01

@GratefulDisciple I don't care about hell, it's always sounded like a place invented out of rancor when Jack didn't like his neighbor Joe. I'm saying I don't see the point of this extra dimension, or talk of souls, or what-not. What does it do?

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Very rude.

It is a very nice place.

You should come.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet True. I'm talking about present reality where there are about 5 major world religions. Still, there is common purpose that religious studies department somewhat agree on, although cannot come up with a definitive definition of "religion". Things like meaning of life, making peace with a greater force, underwriter of a morality, giver of a better life after death, etc.

Dannyu NDos

Heck, I hope scientists will explain what happens after death. The perspective about death as something un-explainable must be overcome.

M.A.R.

There's no karma in this world. People who believe in a religion tend to want to believe that good things will come to them if they're well-behaved. Well, plenty of rich jerks who don't "deserve" it and plenty of miserable people that have had honest livings.

Dannyu NDos

Christian heaven, Buddhist nirvana, Christian hell, or Buddhist hell — All of those idea is to be tested scientifically eventually.

GratefulDisciple

04:05

@M.A.R. In Eleonore Stump's explanation (also C.S. Lewis's conception in The Great Divorce) an occupant in hell creates his/her own hell, and she quotes Milton (or Dante?).

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos we know what happens to the body. We'd have to observe something in the body that we hadn't before, that would persist after death. Proving souls exists is the key to seeing if there's anything after the body stops working.

@GratefulDisciple a common enough position, but it undermines justice.

It's very unlikely that every rich asshole I see is secretly miserable and crying themselves into sleep. They live in their own heaven, and die in their own heaven.

So we circle back into proving unobservable things.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I actually came by this view from a lecture by a college Religion professor, who was making the argument that this view of "five major religions" was (more or less) a Western imposition that failed to explain the role and nature of religion in any society other than our own contemporary one.

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos There is nothing inexplicable about the death of an organism, it is very clear.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Yeah.... I have been brought up in a Western worldview that Chinese folk religions with their syncretism are still somewhat foreign to me. From what I know, their main concern of is The Good Life in the here and now, and they make the supernatural and the rituals a means to that end.

Cerberus

He descends into the underworld.

M.A.R.

04:09

@Cerberus you're biased.

Cerberus

But lovingly so.

Dannyu NDos

@Cerberus Consciousness isn't in the range of studies of organisms.

M.A.R.

> It is correct though, that traditional Christian theology (including Aquinas) holds that once a human being has all the information needed to make a decision (either 'for God' or 'against God' in terms of wholeheartedly being united with God's love), information that of course includes the deep knowledge of who God IS (i.e. Love personified), his/her decision becomes fixed since no new information can change his/her mind.

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos Sure it is!

Neurobiology etc.?

M.A.R.

I would argue that one can never reach this threshold of "all the information needed to make a decision".

Cerberus

04:11

Nay, indeed.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus a link is definitely missing. We can say 'these neurons firing relate to consciousness' but until we replicate it there's a lot we don't know.

GratefulDisciple

@DannyuNDos Those physicists sound Hegelian / Pantheistic. But the criteria for rejection / acceptance wouldn't be science but philosophy.

Dannyu NDos

I mean, theories about consciousness will leave biology and enter physics. All hail Roger Penrose.

M.A.R.

And that brings us back to the beginning. A scientist would never say "consciousness is attributed to a soul" and call it a day. They would explore ad infinitum to find the laws governing it.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. There is always a lot we don't know about anything. But I would say science does study the consciousness of organisms.

M.A.R.

04:14

The view is just incompatible. Either you never stop trying to explain previously unexplained things with science, and you contradict yourself by stopping at some point and saying "well, that's God, we'll never make it that far".

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet I can buy that argument. So the solution is for the Religious Studies department to expand their "collection" to include additional religions. Having lived in Indonesia when I was growing up, one such religion probably is Kejawen.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple No, because that's just taking the Western framework--seeing religions as discrete entities fulfilling a single cross-cultural role--and adding more items to it.

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple how is pluralism ever compatible with like half of Islam, Christianity, and most other religions? Half of Quran is filled with heathens being punished by natural disasters.

Cerberus

And by God. And by people.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. What holds more weight for me personally (about whether I'm hell-bound or heaven-bound) is what Eleonore Stump terms as "willingness to be united with God's love", that he talks in that "How Salvation Works" video and where she spent thousands of pages in her trilogy to expound that concept.

M.A.R.

04:17

So much resentment. "They mocked [Prophet X] but God sure showed them huh"

@GratefulDisciple how is this information of any use to an agnostic?

alphabet

His view was more that we should study the variety of religious practices in their cultural contexts without trying to force that sort of common framework onto them or even clearly delineate "religious" and "non-religious" elements of a culture.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. You may want to review the current scientific options in philosophy of mind and in neuroscience from interviews with scientists, psychologists, and philosophers of all stripes in the Closer to Truth website. The host Robert Kuhn is atheist and is very interested in the nature of consciousness as well. His presentation method is of someone sharing a lifelong journey to find answer, thus "closer to truth". I like the show a lot.

M.A.R.

@alphabet well the discussion wasn't even about that in the first place; it got derailed. It started as my belief in the incompatiility of science and faith.

Dannyu NDos

Heck, too sad most westerners don't know much about Taoism, Buddhism, nor Confucianism.

Cerberus

Buddhism is somewhat popular in the West!

M.A.R.

04:21

@DannyuNDos I only know they vaguely have to do with ninjas.

Cerberus

Christianity is dying, but Buddhism may be rising.

M.A.R.

Taoism, I mean.

alphabet

I think the Chinese Rites controversy is a good example of what happens when you try to force an (early modern) Western model of religion onto a quite foreign cultural context.

M.A.R.

Buddhism is hipness for drug-naive people.

alphabet

@M.A.R. "His view" = "The view of the Religion professor I mentioned earlier" if that wasn't clear.

Cerberus

04:22

@alphabet Religious people make problems out of things that needn't be.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. Personally, I'm ready (with Eleonore Stump too), to make the soul 100% matter (i.e. emergent properties of the brain); that's the extent that I trust science to make the determination. And I adjust my theology accordingly by relocating the things needed for resurrection of the body in God's mind as my soul's "configuration". But I don't need to subscribe to any theory to pray, do I?

M.A.R.

And Confucianism . . . He sounds like a serious and angry man.

@alphabet next time please post your essay in its entirety in a single chat message to prevent confusion

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I'm afraid delivery has upgraded to a subscription plan.

alphabet

@Cerberus Not really, because the sort of "Buddhism" popularized here is mostly a bunch of vaguely spiritual bromides with little relationship to the faith practiced in (say) Thailand.

Cerberus

@alphabet Yes, except the bromide.

Who is to say what the 'true' form of religion is?

M.A.R.

04:24

@GratefulDisciple but you're so picky with your beliefs! Since the brain definitely goes away at death, that would mean no afterlife.

Cerberus

Go wash your mouth!

M.A.R.

You were already throwing half of religion away, you're close to 75% now.

Cerberus

Well, I suppose it's technically not 'life' down here.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. Doesn't an agnostic have loved ones and want to be better lovers? And when searching for "the nature of love" wouldn't he/she want to find teaching on Ideal love, by reading Shakespeare, Bible, etc? And if the way / method the agnostic has selected to help him BE that kind of lover needs a god to be involved, he/she will then become an adherent to the religion under which that concept of god is specified.

Cerberus

Nobody here is really into religion.

So why waste your energy?

user 20458579510081670432

04:27

^

and time

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I'm just answering questions and explain a particular point of view. I hope I didn't come across as preaching / evangelizing.

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple no, why would I want to learn how to love? What's ideal love? What's even 'love'? Is it a feeling of selflessness and compassion, or something else?

alphabet

My view is that the term "religion" refers to a somewhat poorly-defined set of beliefs and practices found across various cultures, sometimes organized into the sorts of things we recognize as discrete religions today but quite often not.

M.A.R.

Too many questions.

Dannyu NDos

Here in South Korea, where Christians and Buddhists coexist, there's no religious war. That's a good thing.

GratefulDisciple

04:30

@M.A.R. I would start with Aristotle's observations (which is empirical), that C.S. Lewis describes in his book The Four Loves. I'm sure my audience here agree that loving is natural to being human? Aristotle & Christianity would define love not merely feeling, but primarily a will informed by reason and driven by desire.

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos well that's only because someone or a group aren't using such differences as pretext to start such a war.

user 20458579510081670432

Foreigner - I Want To Know What Love Is (Lyrics)

►

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Agree. Actually my dad has a lot of gripes about it too (he is still more Javanese & Chinese than I am).

Cerberus

@DannyuNDos It is a good thing. But imagine what South Korea would be like without religion.

There is a reason why South Korea has e.g. less acceptance of gay couples than comparable countries.

Dannyu NDos

Yeah...

M.A.R.

04:33

@GratefulDisciple no no, let's backtrack a bit. What definition of "love" are you using? Then we can move on to why it needs to be taught. Then to why such learning requires a creator. You're creating more questions than answers. All I wanted to know is how you reconcile faith with . . . Everything else, every other informed or random decision.

@Cerberus comparable? North Korea?

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Japan, Taiwan.

M.A.R.

Well, I don't know much about Taiwan, but Japan is kinda unique. Even its recent history is unique

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. My life experience is such that I agree with C.S. Lewis's postulation of the afterlife based on the Argument from desire. So if it ends up a pie in the sky, well, at least I have a meaningful life on earth. So religion for me is a "need", YMMV.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Everyone is unique.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus no, seriously, Japan is uniquer. Uniquerer.

Cerberus

04:38

But South Korea is more conservative than you'd expect, probably because it is partially religious.

Dannyu NDos

They say Japan is Asian UK, and China is Asian France.

Cerberus

Minus the humour and the literature.

user 20458579510081670432

India is the Asian US.

M.A.R.

I mean, look at Turkey, for example. Boring history. All these empires and battles and trade routes, it's all pretty routine.

Most countries are like that. Some sea on one side or the other, empires, great figures, great tragedies.

It all feels different when it comes to Japan.

Vikas

@user20458579510081670432 In what field?

Cerberus

04:40

Yeah.

user 20458579510081670432

Technology

Cerberus

Japan doesn't have sea on the side, nor an empire, nor great figures, nor yet great tragedies.

Nor did it have rockets like Mysore.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus or rather, too many to count? Earthquakes, tsunamis and fires have razed their biggest cities multiple times in their height of glory. They just kinda shrug it off.

Vikas

@user20458579510081670432 I'm still enjoying your joke.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. A very deep point.

GratefulDisciple

04:42

@M.A.R. Love has 4 types, that's why it's hard to define in a chat like this, so I pointed to Lewis's "The Four Loves". It doesn't need to be taught, but to be experienced. And then, our mind wants a definition out of that experience, because we are rational beings who love to reflect (using soul, brain, doesn't matter).

But we will soon realize we want to love our loved ones better, so in THAT struggle, that's where we find we need some other power. If you don't find the need to love better, then you don't need faith. But if you do, then there's where the teaching come, in the form of religion such as Christianity.

M.A.R.

It's very hard to tell when you're being sarcastic

Cerberus

Thank you.

user 20458579510081670432

LoL

M.A.R.

But seriously. Iran's history is also boring.

Cerberus

Utterly.

Who would ever want to know anything about it?

M.A.R.

04:44

But Japan's isn't.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. What would you like me to answer regarding "reconcile faith with ..."?

Cerberus

They are practically the same.

They both had an empire that ruled over large parts of its far larger neighbour.

Dannyu NDos

What about South Korean history?

Cerberus

Far smaller empire.

Dannyu NDos

And North Korean history also?

Cerberus

04:46

Yeah, what about it?

user 20458579510081670432

History is written by the conqueror.

Cerberus

North Korea experimented with gas chambers.

If you want a lugubrious quotation from Wikipaedia.

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos has good shows. But still boring. The same charismatic diplomatic dynasty-founding heroes, the same mad kings, the same wars of succession. One highlight is that it's always been surrounded by bully neighbors

Dannyu NDos

True...

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. Talking about Japan, recently I came across a Japanese movie My Tomorrow, Your Yesterday about love that illustrate Christian love very deeply WITHOUT the explicit mention of God / Jesus / Christianity. I highly recommend it.

Cerberus

04:47

giggling

M.A.R.

@GratefulDisciple no thank you. That discussion went nowhere for an entire hour.

Dannyu NDos

This is why I find geographies much more interesting than histories.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus But seriously, Japan's history is crazy.

So much iodine deficiency.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. OK then. Time to sign off. Have a good weekend.

Dannyu NDos

Heck, there are only 17 provinces in South Korea. That's why easier to memorize than the US' 50 states.

Where the heck is Missouri!?

user 20458579510081670432

04:50

Asians are masters at memorization.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. That's very specific.

Why do you find Japanese history so crazy?

user 20458579510081670432

Re: Kumon

M.A.R.

Bald warriors in bath towels and ridiculously sharp swords where a much duller one would have done, having homosexual relationships with apprentices, dying by the thousands in battles because a person exactly like them is their god

Dannyu NDos

@user20458579510081670432 True. The entire periodic table, all the national flags of the world, and 32 digits of pi... These are what I memorized for no specific reasons.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Is that so exceptional?

M.A.R.

04:51

I mean, godkings are not uncommon, but Japan made a tradition of ascending every emperor to godhood

Cerberus

That isn't very uncommon?

They have the longest ruling empire.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I've always found their bluntness about people's worth intriguing. Part of their worldview.

Dannyu NDos

Meiji, Taishou, Shouwa, Heisei, and Reiwa. That's what I memorized about Japanese history.

M.A.R.

Even if Europe and Asia were exactly similar on how peasants and lords lived, they never admitted it brazenly for such a long time.

user 20458579510081670432

They had two atomic bombings of major cities.

M.A.R.

04:54

Though more of an East Asian thing probably, rather than exclusively Japanese.

Cerberus

> Historically, verifiable emperors of Japan start from 539 AD with Emperor Kinmei.

@M.A.R. Didn't many other civilisations of East Asia feel the same way?

A collectivist culture.

user 20458579510081670432

Culture without reference to language?

;-)

M.A.R.

@Cerberus yeah, but I feel like Japan did it most. Must be the iodine deficiency.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Why do you feel that way?

M.A.R.

@user20458579510081670432 well I felt like my extensive knowledge of Japanese is better locked away from prying minds.

Cerberus

04:58

@user20458579510081670432 Each culture has its own language(s), so it's usually not the most useful way to indicate a culture.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus maybe because they were recently more imperialist about it. Up to WW2.

Dannyu NDos

Languages are vital for defining an ethnicity.

That's how Jurchens disappeared.

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos then I have none. I can't speak Persian well, nor Turkish, nor English.

Cerberus

> Most repressive and brutal period in Chinese history? In popular Chinese discourse, that title belongs to Qin Shihuang.

But Mao Zedong would disagree. On being compared to Qin Shi Huang, Mao responded:

"He buried 460 scholars alive; we have buried forty-six thousand scholars alive... You [intellectuals] revile us for being Qin Shi Huangs. You are wrong. We have surpassed Qin Shi Huang a hundredfold. When you berate us for imitating his despotism, we are happy to agree! Your mistake was that you did not say so enough."

user 20458579510081670432