English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

00:07

I love the audiobook The Russian Revolution by Richard Pipes - I wonder if the sequel, Russia Under the Stalinist Regime - could be found online in audio version.

CowperKettle

00:19

I wonder if there's a good AI-based engine online for creating an audibook version of a book

Because I've just found Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime online in print form archive.org/details/russiaunderbolsh00rich

oops it's not available there

Criggie

cat russia-under-stalinist.txt | festival --text-to-speech --output russia-under-stalinist-audiobook.mp3

make any text file an audiobook

Cerberus

Cat?

Criggie

dog !

Cerberus

Yes.

CowperKettle

From his Russia under the Old Regime

CowperKettle

00:46

> There are more than 7,000 “rare” diseases. They affect fewer than 200,000 Americans each, but are collectively believed to affect a total of 25 million to 30 million Americans. The cost of their medical care is estimated to be approximately $1 Trillion per year. insideprecisionmedicine.com/topics/molecular-dx/…

Criggie

01:28

..which is about the cost of a single aircraft carrier, no ?

Cerberus

Trillion, not billion.

By the way, there are many different carriers, with very different prices.

Criggie

01:55

USS Gerald R Ford carrier planned to cost $13 billion USD to build.
Program has blown out to $130 Billion USD.
Carrier holds 90 active planes along with spares, with a cost of $100 M to 125 M each, that's $10 Billion.
Crew on-board is 4539, average US sailor wage is $53,202 so another $250 M there per year, for 50 years is 12 Billion
Operating cost for vessel is 6.5 million a day, over 50 year life is $119 Billion

So yeah around 250 Billion, not a trillion

So:
..which is about the cost of four aircraft carriers.

And $1 trillion / 30 Million people, is around $33,000 per person. About 8 months wages for the average sailor.

Cerberus

I don't think that calculation is a reasonable interpretation at all.

When someone says, "the cost of a ship", that reasonably means the money required to buy one ship and nothing else.

Most especially the whole programme is not part of the purchase price of one ship.

> schip 450 miljoen
vliegtuigen 1,5 miljard
helikopters 500 miljoen
Totaal 2,45 miljard euro.
https://marineschepen.nl/dossiers/Hoeveel-kost-Nederlands-vliegdekschip.html

This is for a smaller carrier.

The ship would cost around 450 million.

jlliagre

02:19

Wow! 80 aircrafts ;-)

2

Cerberus

Yeah, a single ship may have more aerocraften than a middling country.

Criggie

02:59

shrug aircraft carriers can generally defend themselves.

alphabet

03:15

@Criggie We all know the cool kids use < FILE command instead of cat FILE | command

Cerberus

03:26

Carriers are generally accompanied by escort ships for protection.

Criggie

yup - but we're only looking at the purchase cost of a carrier, with no options.
Compared to that, the cost of health-care is ENORMOUSLY more.

@alphabet What can I say - I'm not a cat person.

Cerberus

@Criggie Indeed.

And should it not be so?

Criggie

I was going to say:
> 25-30 million people would prefer healthcare, no ?

But realise now this is one of those chats that never end until we loose sight of the point.
And scrolling back I can't even see what the point was. So we're halfway there.

Cerberus

03:41

I never knew what the point was!

Just wanted to add something about the cost of an aerocraft carrier.

Criggie

aircrafts carrier

@jlliagre THAT's a callback !

Cerberus

04:02

Ouch!

Criggie

04:39

carrier is single
carriers is plural
aircraft is both single and plural
aircrafts is not acceptable
aircraft's (noun) is acceptable.
carrier's (noun) is okay
carriers' (noun) is okay

jlliagre

07:50

@Criggie Aircrafts is taking off. Cruising altitude should be reached in just a couple of millenia, maybe sooner.

SmokeDetector

08:29

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad asn for hostname in body, potentially bad ns for domain in body, potentially bad keyword in body, blacklisted user (75): Bạn biết tại sao học IELTS lại quan trọng không?‭ by My Ngô‭ on english.SE

Vikas

Apparently a bird helped in flag hoisting when it got stuck:

youtube.com/shorts/SFyMJJB56IE

@jlliagre What's this app?

jlliagre

@Vikas Google Ngram

Vikas

👍🏾

jlliagre

@Vikas What would you have said, two aircraft or two aircrafts?

Vikas

@jlliagre Two aircrafts. But I don't know what's correct.

I sometimes type "I have three softwares in this drive", but I always see a spelling check suggestion and it's marked by red line.

jlliagre

08:45

@Vikas Native speakers believe it's two aircraft but just wait, regularity will prevail!

Vikas

LOL

jlliagre

10

Q: Why does the incorrect plural "aircrafts" seem to be occurring more often?

My first reaction to aircrafts was to think it was a typo, but I just checked usage on NGrams... ...and compared it to usage for the singular / collective noun form aircraft... ...which seems to indicate that the "regular" plural form is gradually being taken up. Does this represent a tende...

Some are blaming Indians :-)

Vikas

@jlliagre Keep them blaming XD

If Chinese population were also as obsessed with English as India, we could see a quick evolution in English grammar.

At least in Asia.

jlliagre

@Vikas Chinese grammar is so different (as I was told) that it would trigger a revolution more than an evolution.

Vikas

10:54

Does anyone know where the Wiktionary get its data from? (i.e., how does it know the meanings of words, there must be some source?)

jlliagre

> Many of the definitions at the project's largest language editions were created by bots that found creative ways to generate entries or (rarely) automatically imported thousands of entries from previously published dictionaries. Seven of the 18 bots registered at the English Wiktionary in 2007[c] created 163,000 of the entries there.[5]

Wiktionary

Wiktionary (UK: , WIK-shə-nər-ee; US: , WIK-shə-nerr-ee; rhyming with "dictionary") is a multilingual, web-based project to create a free content dictionary of terms (including words, phrases, proverbs, linguistic reconstructions, etc.) in all natural languages and in a number of artificial languages. These entries may contain definitions, images for illustration, pronunciations, etymologies, inflections, usage examples, quotations, related terms, and translations of terms into other languages, among other features. It is collaboratively edited via a wiki. Its name is a portmanteau of the words...

alphabet

12:31

Apr 24 at 18:24, by alphabet

facepaw

@Vikas The problem there is that "software" is a noncount noun; "a software" is also wrong, at least outside India. I've noticed, though, that there seem to be a number of nouns that are always noncount nouns outside of India but have been repurposed as count nouns there, giving e.g. "an advice" (meaning "a piece of advice") or "a staff" (meaning "a member of the staff").

Vikas

@alphabet So if I have three apps in a folder, can I say 'I have three "software" in that folder'?

M.A.R.

@alphabet I have two doubts and half about that.

alphabet

@Vikas No. Noncount nouns can't be used with cardinal numbers at all; you need to say something like "I have three pieces of software in that folder" (or more idiomatically "I have three apps in that folder").

Vikas

@alphabet 👍🏾

ryang

12:58

english.stackexchange.com/posts/164317/revisions <------- What actually is being asked in this Question?? (I haven't read the answers, just trying to read the question and its revisions for what it is trying to ask.)

CowperKettle

> A man is in the movie theatre.. and he notices what looks like a horse sitting next to him.
"Are you a horse?" asks the man, surprised.
"Yes."
"What are you doing at the movies?"
The horse replies "well, I liked the book.."

jlliagre

@alphabet So an airplane is a piece of aircraft? That doesn't fly :-)

M.A.R.

@ryang seems to be asking for a word for an atheist who can't rule out the existence of supernatural forces.

@jlliagre Your pun blew me away

CowperKettle

13:14

> It has become increasingly common to see a drone hovering over a building with a delivery order. Customers want things faster these days, and drone delivery offers retailers a great way to meet that demand. fastcompany.com/91173998/…

I wonder if this is true

Walmart drone delivery | by Wing 📦

►

Mitch

13:42

@Vikas Despite @jlliagre informative link, a lot of those definitions seem written by... time-constrained amateurs. ie they did the least they could do, which was very little.

CowperKettle

> Annual U.S. birth numbers have fallen by 17% since peaking in 2007, according to the new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The general fertility rate (births per 1,000 women) has also tumbled by 21% over that time period, the report found. medicalxpress.com/news/2024-08-births-fall.html

Mitch

@Vikas 'Software' (in US and UK English) is just like 'hardware', it's just a collective thing like water.

So in app is a kind of software, but not *'a software'.

Just call it an app, saying something about software doesn't add anything.

@CowperKettle I blame the iPhone.

Also, similar sats hold for most all developed nations.

MetaEd

14:00

"You never gain something but that you lose something." ---Thoreau

ryang

@M.A.R. , In my above comment I'd neglected to mention that the Question title is at odds with the Question body (which itself isn't particularly clear).

CowperKettle

"Let us not play at kittly-benders. There is a solid bottom everywhere." -- Thoreau

Mitch

14:29

"Bleep Bloop Bleep. And I mean it to sting." --ThoreAIu

M.A.R.

@ryang I wouldn't overthink it. They're probably trying to call someone a hypocrite in a debate or something.

@CowperKettle Kept wondering what the heck a kitty bender is.

Vikas

🥰😭🫣👆… #babygirl #babyboy #cute

►

Nice video.

M.A.R.

@ryang the "don't" in the first sentence in the body is probably a typo.

You can't bend kitties. They'll keep stretching ad infinitum.

MetaEd

Wordle 1,158 4/6

⬛⬛🟨⬛🟨
⬛🟨🟨🟩⬛
🟨⬛🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Wordle 1,159 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛🟨
⬛🟨⬛⬛⬛
🟨⬛🟨⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

@CowperKettle kittly-benders?

jlliagre

15:05

Wordle 1,158 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛🟨🟩🟨
🟩🟩⬛🟩🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Wordle 1,159 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟨🟩🟨⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

MetaEd

15:18

ah hah! fellow time traveler

alphabet

@ryang I've rolled back the question to the original.

Since the changes made the question title unrelated to the text of the question in a way that made no sense.

CowperKettle

tickly-bender

Noun: tickly-bender (plural tickly-benders)

(archaic) A hazardous patch of ice that bends under a person's weight.

kittly-benders

Noun: kittly-benders (uncountable)

(obsolete, New England) The sport of running on thin, bending ice.

user 20458579510081670432

You may get blinded by the light.

Blinded by the Light ~ Manfred Mann's Earth Band with lyrics

►

Or, it may gaze back.

😎

🙈

MetaEd

@CowperKettle that was a lovely rabbit-hole.

user 20458579510081670432

Aren't all abyss' lovely...

*abysses

🤭

🙊

MetaEd

16:16

@user20458579510081670432 abyssinians? you might be thinking of angoras

user 20458579510081670432

🤔

Perhaps.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Vikas

Wordle 1,158 5/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟨🟨⬜⬜🟨
🟨🟨⬜🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

ryang

@M.A.R. the "don't" in the first sentence in the body is probably a typo. <------- On the contrary: a careful reading of the OP's original text (without paying attention to the subsequent edits by other users) suggests that they are trying to say that since an atheist might believe in an afterlife, "atheist" isnt the word they are looking for to describe someone who DOESNT believe in an afterlife but is open to supernatural possibilities.

user 20458579510081670432

What are "supernatural" possibilities?

Dreams, fantasies, undiscovered parallel universes...

M.A.R.

16:35

Well now I'm confused

@user20458579510081670432 Eh, if you drop me off in a spooky mansion in midnight where the wind makes funny noises I'd start believing in the supernatural too

user 20458579510081670432

That's akin to torcher, for some people.

But yeah, I get your point pal.

ryang

@user20458579510081670432 Oops, I meant "open to supernatural existence", of course, hehe. Anyhow, the question has now been edited much clearer. Cheers!

M.A.R.

16:51

@ryang I suppose some parts of combinatorics are about supernatural possibilities.

Cerberus

17:11

This is almost Putin-level silliness.

user 20458579510081670432

LoL

🎯💯✅

ryang

@M.A.R. Only if you're counting on ghosts to do the maths!

user 20458579510081670432

The ghosts of departed quantities.

👻 1 ÷ 0 😱

M.A.R.

17:29

@Cerberus who are these?

It's much more annoying seeing this kind of silliness as someone under Putin or Khamenei's rule, believe me.

Ra'isi used to do this sort of thing annoyingly often.

I know Sholz, the others, not so much

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission.

The man on the left, I have no idea.

The other man must be someone from TSMC, the Taiwanese company.

M.A.R.

Cerberus

She.

M.A.R.

The first Google image result of her

Doesn't look happy

Cerberus

Not everyone can look happy all the time.

M.A.R.

17:38

What about the man who laughs?

user 20458579510081670432

Only the one who laughs last

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

The other man must be someone from TSMC, the Taiwanese company.

user 20458579510081670432

He who laughs last ...

M.A.R.

@Cerberus No I mean he looked happy all the time

Cerberus

All the time?

M.A.R.

17:44

Great toothpaste ad

alphabet

18:05

@ryang Their point is: strictly speaking, neither "there is an afterlife" nor "there is a god" imply each other. "Atheist" means not believing in god(s), regardless of one's position on an afterlife; they're looking for a term that means not believing in an afterlife, regardless of one's position on god(s).

In other words, a term that includes both Richard Dawkins and Spinoza, an atheist and a theist respectively who both deny the existence of life after death.

Cerberus

@alphabet I don't think anyone believes in an afterlife without believing in the supernatural?

Isn't the existence of an afterlife supernatural by definition?

alphabet

@Cerberus It depends on exactly what you mean by "believing in the supernatural." I don't think that Pythagoras saw metempsychosis as anything other than a natural process.

Cerberus

Right, what is supernatural depends on one's knowledge of nature.

Pythagoras didn't know enough about nature.

But in civilised, modern countries, people do.

Even so, what Pythagoras believed could be considered supernatural.

Mitch

18:45

@Cerberus What? Are they burying somebody?

haha actually I don't know why that is supposed to be silly. Don't politicians always do 'first shovel' (or however you say it) at big government supported construction projects?

user 20458579510081670432

Drowning them for discovering the √2

Mitch

@Cerberus by definition, surely.

@Cerberus He didn't know beans.

Alexander

Oh, my biggest life question is as follows: "Can an atheist believe in devil?" I have heard he/she can. It's an opinion though. An atheist does not believe in God, but he or she can still believe in devil, in gnomes, in banshees, in leprechauns, in mermaids...

Mitch

@alphabet At this point it should be obvious to everyone involved that there is no such word that fulfills the desired characteristics.

At some point in intellectual life, people were like "I know this is weird because it's so out there, but what is a word for someone who doesn't believe in a deity?".

user 20458579510081670432

W/O the word does the thought exist.

Mitch

18:50

And then a little later some more people said "wow this is weird, what if some people, admittedly unlikely to exist, aren't atheists but sort of don't exactly believe that there -must be a God?".

And... well... I'm not suggesting there -should- be a word for this new weird unknown concept... just.

user 20458579510081670432

Can that God create a stone he cannot lift.

Mitch

Crap... somehow I wrote myself into a corner I can't get out of.

@user20458579510081670432 What is the land speed of a European swallow... or some bird or something.

user 20458579510081670432

Flying against or with the wind?

Alexander

@Mitch Can we please talk about atheism? If possible.

Mitch

That's a great question, I'm glad you brought it up. The purpose of the question, while ostensibly about logic, really has the import of keeping a lot of people busy at theology school and off the streets where they'd be selling bets to the horse races.

@Alexander Let's instead talk about not-atheism.

About the lack of atheism.

About aatheism.

user 20458579510081670432

18:56

√atheism

Alexander

bolshoyvopros.ru/questions/…

Let me translate.

A few seconds, please.

Mitch

Substitute Teacher - Key & Peele

►

user 20458579510081670432

⏳⌛

Mitch

Jay Kwellin

'All right that's how it's gonna be. I can play that game'

Oh I missed that one... "O Shag Hennessey"

Alexander

Excuse me, but why dissuade anyone?!

You know, at one time there was a wonderful, highly cultured participant here. Well, I once liked her wise answer: "I don't have to prove to anyone that I'm not a camel."

Your relatives ≠ You.

("And you look like your grandmother. But you're not her!" - there was once such a children's poem in the magazine "Murzilka").

So let them [religious believers] think what they want. You are not obliged to follow their lead, you are not obliged to embrace religion following your dad, grandfather, son-in-law, godfather, godfather, neighbor, director, president...

Mitch

19:02

"Will God be able to come up with a problem so complex that he will not be able to solve it?"

I feel like this is a grown up way of saying "My dad can beat up your dad."

Alexander

@Mitch thanks. Still you are a bit obscure for me but I like you.

Mitch

@Alexander Thanks. Sometimes I don't even understand myself.

Alexander

beat up - is it a phrasal verb?

Mitch

I'm sure I had a point of some kind.

@Alexander Yes, a phrasal verb for what boxers try to do to each other.

Alexander

Which option is correct: "I let my cat in" or "I let in my cat"? Placement of a direct object while using a phrasal verb. I'm so ashamed I am 35 years old but I have never thought of such weird grammar rules.

I think it's the former though. Not the latter.

learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/b1-b2-grammar/…

Mitch

19:09

What I meant by that obscurity about Gods and Dads, was that whatever spiritual reality there might be or not to deities, ascribing features like omnipotence to them is just playing with thoughts, hyperbolizing them beyond reality, which is somewhat similar to boasting about the power of one's father (because unless your dad is a boxer, you probably have no idea about his ability to beat up other people and it's all just hope and faith.

pardon my vocabulary... if you can't use big words here, where -can- you?

@Alexander Both work fine.

but I don't know about all phrasal verbs.

I am a native speaker of English so I can use all these things, like phrasal verbs, very easily, but that doesn't mean I can explain and come up with any examples.

Alexander

@Mitch Thanks a lot. Your vocabulary is very clear and pretty understandable even for me. Very pure and logical words. I still translated you using my GT; I understand it quite well now.

Mitch

@Alexander GT is pretty good. Not always perfect, but you get a lot for free.

Alexander

@Mitch no worries, you are welcome.

Mitch

and a lot of things we say here are word play which GT may not be able to handle.

@M.A.R. Believe all you want, but make sure you don't hide in the basement with all the power tools and pitchforks and rusty metal chopping things are all ready.

Alexander

Dear Mitch, I apologize for changing the topic of our discussion, but I just wish to share a news with you (can I say "a news"? that's a very tough question for me!) that I have found my goddess. I do not need God, I am an absolute feminist. I adore females most of all. She is from Krasnoyarsk. I wonder if in the USA (or in Boston specifically) women are as pretty and as intelligent as her. I think they are!

Also, her English is extremely good. Awesome knowledge. I think she is advanced (A level?.. oh, those grades...).

Sorry, It was C1. I totally confused everything.

I think my level is either B1 or B2. Probably B1.

user 20458579510081670432

19:21

Are you from Russia

Alexander

@user20458579510081670432 I am NOT. I speak Russian. My written Russian is absolutely neat and perfect.

Cerberus

@Mitch American humour can be so slow!

Though not always.

user 20458579510081670432

How can you judge speed with written text.

Perhaps you meant slow to unfold.

jlliagre

@Cerberus The man on the left is Michael Kretschmer, Minister President of Saxony. That was my Google assisted WhenTaken like game of the day :)

Next challenge is to identify the previously hidden unnamed man on the right :) Left as an exercice to the reader.

Mitch

19:40

@Cerberus Wow... that stings.

But I still need the humor explained to me.

I thought the guy on the far left was Mr Bean and that's why it was supposed to be funny. I suppose that's more my speed.

@Alexander 1) changing topic quickly, either switching back ond forth or abandoning altogether, is totally on-topic here.

2) You can't say 'a news'. 'news' is a mass noun like 'water'. You can say 'The news' or Just 'News' but not 'A news'. You can share news with me.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I'd take a sleeping pill to become immune to jump scares. That way the ghost can't get to me

Mitch

I think the kind of goddess you are referring to, while encouraging mystical feelings, is actually of this earth, and not a spiritual relative of ghosts and leprechauns.

@M.A.R. I have personally inoculated myself against all jump scares by shouting 'boo' at myself unexpectedly, while holding various sharp kitchen implements while barefoot.

M.A.R.

Buspirone is an anxiolytic that works well towards dispersing any thoughts of the supernatural

Cerberus

@jlliagre Fun game!

@Mitch Sorry.

@Mitch Do you hold them using your feet in order to surprise yourself?

M.A.R.

@Mitch it always comes off as "us betterpeople can also demonstrate our prowess at doing peasant work".

Cerberus

19:48

@Mitch It's not exactly funny, but just so silly, to have politicians holding shovels as though they were building the new factory.

Mitch

@Alexander I don't really know much about the English education system except what I can get from Harry Potter, but I think A-levels are high school proficiency (what you get by 18 years old in secondary school). But that is not very well defined. C1 is another system, pretty fluent.

M.A.R.

I have no idea what American 18 yo say. I'm illiterate like that.

Mitch

@Alexander Here is the classification:

Common European Framework of Reference for Languages

The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages: Learning, Teaching, Assessment, abbreviated in English as CEFR, CEF, or CEFRL, is a guideline used to describe achievements of learners of foreign languages across Europe and, increasingly, in other countries. The CEFR is also intended to make it easier for educational institutions and employers to evaluate the language qualifications of candidates for education admission or employment. Its main aim is to provide a method of learning, teaching, and assessing that applies to all languages in Europe. The CEFR was established by the Council...

@Cerberus That's not a surprise then

Cerberus

But you were trying so hard.

M.A.R.

CEFRL. Sounds like an antidepressant

Mitch

19:53

@Cerberus Oh. They do that -all- the time here in the US. At least in movies.

Cerberus

YMBR.

@Mitch Yeah it's not uncommon here.

Mitch

Of course it seems silly.

But

One gets used to it so it has no impact at all.

Cerberus

But in Holland I suppose they would at least be wearing some accessory like a helmet or boots.

Wouldn't they?

At any rate, it remains silly.

Mitch

@M.A.R. If there were a pill to learn a language it would probably be as ineffectual.

Cerberus

But anti-depressants are not quite ineffectual?

M.A.R.

19:55

Yeah only Cowp loves saying that

Mitch

Not that antidepressants are ineffectual for everyone. Can be a life saver. But sometimes it seems like they hardly do anything, the way people talk.

@Cerberus Usually in American movies they're wearing a construction worker's hard hat.

In the Netherlands shouldn't they be wearing rubber boots?

Cerberus

@Mitch Even when the medicine works to a considerable degree, it probably won't lift the depression completely, and the depressed are prone to seeing the negative side of things, so...

@Mitch Preferably!

Mitch

In case their shovel breaks through a dam or something?

M.A.R.

@Mitch they hardly do anything the first four or so weeks. And that's too long a wait for most people

Mitch

@M.A.R. I hear it elsewhere? I don't know.

M.A.R.

19:58

Buspirone's effects are almost instantaneous though

Mitch

@M.A.R. They should sell that shit on the street then!

M.A.R.

@Mitch no sure, everyone is selling something, so they have to villify the existing standards of treatment. Reasonably speaking, treating 80 percent of people with depression is great, but there's so much more room for improvement. If you're selling something else, you'd focus on the 20 percent.

Mitch

@M.A.R. huh. I didn't think of that as a selling tactic.

I was thinking more like pseudoephedrine for decongestion.

M.A.R.

I'm not saying it's 80 percent, I don't know. I just know that from experience, that treatment failure often happens when people don't comply with how they should be taking the drug.

Mitch

Which after years and years of use, people are finally realizing that it does hardly anything at all.

@M.A.R. That's a general 'thing' though.

Cerberus

20:02

@M.A.R. Oh, that's interesting: they skip doses or something?

M.A.R.

Doesn't take it after breakfast -> the heartburns and stomachaches become intolerable, treatment discontinued

Mitch

Just like stopping taking meds 'because I don't feel bad anymore' is a thing.

M.A.R.

Doesn't take it for at least three months -> says had no effect on depression symptoms (sleep, appetite etc.)

Cerberus

Ahh I see.

@Mitch Oh, that, too.

M.A.R.

Starts with the wrong dose -> can't effective titrate drug to desirable levels, doesn't improve.

Mitch

20:04

@M.A.R. I've heard at that's a thing too that it's ... depressing to consider oneself dependent on a drug and so out of pride you become unmotivated to take it.

Cerberus

I suppose it can be difficult for people with serious psychological issues to take their medicine correctly.

Mitch

But non-adherence is a general thing with lots of causes.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus that too. I mean, I'm a lifelong drug consumer too. I know all the science and shit. And I also forget doses from time to time. And my drugs aren't of the sort that would talk of a promised land should I make the pilgrimage.

Mitch

like taking dementia meds... I can't keep track!!!

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Umm what did you mean by the last bit?

@Mitch Haha at least those don't really exist yet...

M.A.R.

20:05

Also SSRIs can agitate you a bit in the initial weeks.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Wait... are you saying there -is- such a drug?

Sell that shit on the street!

M.A.R.

@Cerberus the fact that you won't feel any positive changes until months later

Mitch

@Cerberus Sure there are. They don't -solve- the problem, but the mitigate the speed of decline, which is something.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Ah, OK, you mean anti-depressants are like that, which makes them harder to adhere to.

Mitch

Excelon... uh some other drug... I've heard caffeine is actually pretty good early stage.

M.A.R.

20:07

So all in all, if you take the right antidepressant for the right duration the right way, in a few months you are very likely to feel much better.

But people don't. And depressed people are some of the least motivated people to follow up on something for months.

Cerberus

@Mitch You mean something like stuff that improves one's general condition, like the heart and blood sugar and stuff?

@M.A.R. This is good to know.

@M.A.R. Understandable.

Which is when being committed to an institution may help.

Mitch

@Cerberus no, I meant actual meds that help with dementia effects right now today (rather than treating risk factors, like high blood pressure, years before significant signs of decline appear).

@M.A.R. dude help me out here... what are other things like excelon for mild cognitive decline?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus one huge drawback, though, is that rebounds are common. Even if one follows the guidelines to the letter, a reasonable duration of therapy with antidepressants is nine months to a year, and after discontinuing the drug completely there's some likelihood that one's mood will regress a bit.

Cerberus

@Mitch I have only heard of experimental medicine against Alzheimer's, which are being researched and which won't have a huge effect even if they work.

@M.A.R. Hmm doesn't that apply to many medicines / therapies?

Mitch

@Cerberus well I think going to an institution things have to be pretty bad, and not just 'not taking meds regularly'

M.A.R.

20:11

@Mitch memantine, donepezil, and gallantamine are the three other commonly prescribed drugs for Alzheimer's

Cerberus

@Mitch Right, but, if there were plenty of capacity, it would help?

@M.A.R. Do they work?

M.A.R.

For other types of dementia, like vascular dementia (after a stroke) or Lewy body, they're not very effective.

Cerberus

OK new resolution: let's not get dementia, OK?

Mitch

@Cerberus there's all sorts of dementia, and anyway I think you're talking about the Alzheimer's biological process and I'm talking about just the general symptom of cognitive decline.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus no, they're all symptomatic

They can't slow the progress of dementia

Leqembi can, for some subtypes of dementia.

But it has serious side effects.

And brain hemorrhages.

Like being expensive.

Cerberus

20:14

@M.A.R. Do they reduce symptoms by working specifically on the condition of dementia, or do they work by making the body be in better (cardio-vascular) condition in general?

M.A.R.

The future drugs for Alzheimer's would hopefully be "disease-modifying", meaning, they would slow the progression of mental decline.

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't know, I just didn't know there were medicines that worked specifically against dementia without working on the body in a more general way.

@M.A.R. We read about the research in the papers.

Mitch

@Cerberus it would help keep the patient adherent to med taking sure, but at very high expense which shouldn't be necessary if the patient just feels bad like before the prescription. There'd have to presumably be suicidal ideation/serious planning/debilitating effects to warrant institutionalization (ie not taking mds is not the reason to be institutionalized though it may contribute)

M.A.R.

@Cerberus they only ever help with the worst symptoms of dementia. Besides statins I don't think there's a 'wellness' drug

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah I know it is too expensive.

Mitch

20:16

@M.A.R. the difficulty with statins is that they don't do anything that makes you feel better right then and there.

Alexander

@Mitch my grandma has the worst dementia in the world. She is 87 now. She constantly calls (phones) my father (who also is her son as well) and asks him: "What do I have to do?", even if he is at home. Who knows: is there a cure, a medicine for such a terrible disease?

M.A.R.

The way I see it people can educate themselves easily about the flu or obesity or things like that, but they're very uneducated about dealing with depression, which often is as a result of modern life, myself included

Alexander

Oh sorry, I think I pinged wrong person @M.A.R.

M.A.R.

And there's a rift between psychologists and the rest of the medical community that definitely doesn't help.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Hmm but people who are depressed will undergo behavioural therapy, which is meant to teach them just that?

@M.A.R. What rift?

M.A.R.

20:22

@Cerberus we can't understand each other. They feel like mind-body dualists and we're hardcore materialists

Or um, who were the -ists that believed everything in the world is physical?

Cerberus

Hmm I see.

Mitch

I hope Rob is OK.

Cerberus

You can say materialist.

Or perhaps reductionist. Or monist.

Mitch

@M.A.R. nobody says 'monist'

Cerberus

@Mitch I haven't seen him in a few days: do you have any reason to suspect anything?

Mitch

20:23

it would make life more balanced but there it is.

M.A.R.

@Alexander I'm sorry to say, at that point there probably isn't out there that can help. You can definitely optimize the treatment for her anxiety and/or depression though, which is the tougher challenge

Cerberus

Perhaps also physicalist.

Mitch

@Cerberus not at all just the lack.

I just noticed it.

there's always vacation

Alexander

@M.A.R. It is the worst dementia I have seen in my life. My father is so angry now. I don't currently know what medicaments he gives to her. He is mad, he is furious. They live in a separate apartment apart from ours. My mother and I live in a different street, slightly different city district.

Cerberus

> materialism: the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.

> reductionism: the theory that every complex phenomenon, especially in biology or psychology, can be explained by analyzing the simplest, most basic physical mechanisms that are in operation during the phenomenon.

> monism: 1b. (in metaphysics) any of various theories holding that there is only one basic substance or principle as the ground of reality, or that reality consists of a single element. Compare dualism ( def 2 ), pluralism ( def 1a ); 3. the reduction of all processes, structures, concepts, etc., to a single governing principle; the theoretical explanation of everything in terms of one principle.

> physicalism: a doctrine associated with logical positivism and holding that every meaningful statement, other than the necessary statements of logic and mathematics, must refer directly or indirectly to observable properties of spatiotemporal things or events.

Mitch

20:29

as you said, I think physicalism fits in there too. with subtle differences.

oh.

Cerberus

@Mitch Most probably!

Mitch

I didn't know it was a term in philosophy of logic

where did you get those definitions?

Cerberus

Dictionary.com.

I'm simple like that.

Some might say, simplistic. Others, reductionist.

Mitch

The Stanford Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a book length article on each, as the TLDR.

Cerberus

Of course.

M.A.R.

20:32

I have tied a knot to sleep earlyTM. So I'm calling it a night

That's all folks

Cerberus

TM?

I'm proud of your early sleep.

alphabet

23:53

@M.A.R. Y'know what helped me with that? Having a condition that could land me in the hospital and/or cause serious injury if I missed a couple doses. 100% would recommend.

I really like it when the pharmacy decides to take its sweet time refilling my prescriptions.

@M.A.R. We need a reverse LSD for the people who get a little too "out there."

tchrist

> Favorite Tolkien name fo the day: Nolondil (translation self-evident)

Criggie

not self-evident to me, sorry.

tchrist

A handy text message I received this evening. The "translation self-evident" cracked me up.

Criggie

no long dill ? -->> short-dick ?

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