@alphabet I don't know, he probably already knew quite a lot?

I don't remember exactly.

@Cerberus He must have had some reason for being on Grindr in a place where he didn't yet live. Presumably trying to scope things out.

@alphabet no I was just feeling poetic. The Farsi equivalent is "the neighbor's chicken is a swan".

@M.A.R. Do people eat swans?

@Cerberus There will be a new crop of conservatives to supplant them, don't worry.

@alphabet I didn't know you were a people. I thought you were a raccoon.

@alphabet it's probably because they're rare and prettier

@M.A.R. Come to America, where you too can be "randomly selected" by the TSA.

@alphabet Yeah, maybe making acquaintances, seeing what people are like to talk to?

@Cerberus it doesn't take many people to replace ones in positions of power. They will certainly be so irreligious that they would no longer bother with the pretenses.

@Robusto Did you read what comment by MAR I responded to?

Other than that, it's hard to picture reform from the inside, thought that's what I'm hoping for

@M.A.R. Hmm not sure I follow.

But imagine if the generation of Khamenei and Raisi are all gone from politics.

@Cerberus Yes. I still stick by my statement.

@Cerberus I don't recall having many long conversations much there.

@alphabet Oh, why not?

I often do.

Could be hours, days, weeks, years.

@Cerberus if a very small minority supports the current theocracy, then they will be the successors, and nothing much would change in terms of policy. It's just that they will not even bother appearing religious.

@Cerberus I think most people here use it to find hookups. Some of them seem incapable of writing in complete sentences.

America will remain the Great Satan, Russia and China will remain allies, various militia around the Middle East will still enjoy support from the IRGC.

@M.A.R. Indeed. It's quite rare for an undemocratic regime to be ousted by (say) protesters who go on to establish a functioning democracy.

@M.A.R. Why would they not bother appearing religious?

And don't you think eventually other people would take over?

@alphabet Some are incapable.

But anything is possible there.

How do you define 'hook-up'? Why would it not involve talking?

And that's the bubble: Peeple believe that if we stop being jerks to Israel, and switch Satans, then the economy, everyone's main concern, will not go to shit more than it already has.

The trouble with democracy is that is dynamically unstable, as we're seeing today in the US. (And as we say in the 1860s as well.)

@Cerberus they're less religious, just hypocrites, not true believers. And the same will go for their supporters. They will still use verses from Quran to justify poking American bases in neighboring countries, but they won't attend all the Jummah prayers

Ah OK.

Well, I still have hope that things will improve as society changes.

@Cerberus I can imagine a totally secular dictator like Putin running the place in the future, but I can't imagine a shift in policy to be friends to America and Western Europe and less friendly towards Russia and China

@M.A.R. Well, I would be mostly concerned with a more secular society.

It would be nice if that could happen.

@M.A.R. Presumably nobody in the political establishment wants to suddenly be forced to admit that they spent decades fighting the West for nothing.

(That same sort of inertia is also, I think, a force in American foreign policy.)

@Cerberus North Korea's pretty secular, but I don't think that'd be a better future for Iran.

And people seem to want those most of all. Nothing about being allies to China appeals to the significant majority of Iranians. China's public image has been a mass-producer of cheaply made goods, and nothing else. Nobody knows nothing about Chinese tech, or military, or the welfare of the average citizen.

OTOH, America is the big bully, ever more impressive as it shrugs Iran's weak attempts at changing the game, with the highest quality goods, be it drugs or cars, with a frighteningly strong military, and most importantly, with a lax attitude towards food, drugs, sex, you name it.

So we're in love with the American way of life as portrayed on Instagram, Tiktok, and YouTube

@M.A.R. The lax attitude is just a ruse. Our own "mullahs" are seeking to be as restrictive as your own.

@M.A.R. You mean people admire and want the drugs and the cars and the sex, but don't care about the human rights? Or that people resent America out of envy?

@Cerberus The mountain?

@M.A.R. Wait, what part of it? Other than just "having more money."

@alphabet Ceteris paribus, it is certainly better.

@alphabet people don't know what those rights are. They're just using buzzwords to make their wishes and wants sound important. They've only recently figured some of them out as women were beaten and jailed for not wearing scarfs.

@jlliagre Yes!

@Cerberus In terms of general living standards, I imagine North Korea is much worse.

Again, ceteris paribus.

@alphabet it has a huge overlap with what Americans themselves find appealing in what's portrayed: The shiny, carefree way of life, and being 'applauded' by n people for pursuing it

Except it's the Americans who know how to have such a life. We instead deal here with taxes and rising prices and horribly made cars.

@M.A.R. I don't think most Americans see the American way of life as particularly shiny or carefree. I suppose it is by comparison with Iran.

@alphabet life as portrayed on social media is different from life as we live it, I mean.

@M.A.R. I'm just not sure what social media content portrays life that way. I guess maybe celebrities' Instagram pages.

Asians in general just add the extra connotation that it's only the Westerners that are showing off their cars or jewelry or boyfriend.

I mean, I spend most of my time on YouTube consuming true crime content, which doesn't really make society look good.

I don't think I'm interested in true crime in some other country

@M.A.R. "Asians" is a gargantuan category. Compare dour Cambodia, say, with Japan and its gaudy consumerist culture.

@Robusto well, half of China, most of the middle East and India are most of Asia anyway, so it's a good approximation.

@M.A.R. Huh. I get the sense that in the US--probably more than in some other countries--there's a sort of stigma against excessive public displays of wealth. Celebrities can get away with it.

@M.A.R. Yeah people in China would never, ever do such a thing.

@alphabet And then there is Jeff Bezos's $500-million-dollar yacht. Which, of course, goes under the radar because who actually knows where it is? And the Hawaiian island that Larry Ellison owns, and on and on.

You know what I mean. It's Jason Statham driving the Audi, not Amit or Mohamed.

@alphabet Umm America is known for excessive public displays of wealth.

@Robusto There's a reason they don't publicize those things; they'd be hated, not admired, for it.

Perhaps less so than countries which are even newer money, though.

Like East Asia, Arabia.

This is why people mock Trump's obsession with having everything made out of gold.

But certainly more so than Europe.

@alphabet Look at the gold toilets oil money has bought for the Saudi royalty.

Here there's a stereotype of rich foreign exchange students--mostly from China--who go around driving luxury cars and carrying designer handbags; they tend to be seen as tacky and obnoxious for it.

@alphabet as there should be, but I'm not sure the US is less than elsewhere in that regard. You guys have the biggest hoarders of wealth after all.

@Cerberus Okay but for me, it's an a posteriori clue. I was too confused to even think about that place. I'm still a little surprised about all of those left hand drive american cars.

@jlliagre Hah!

@Robusto that's a cheap ego thing. Yeah golden toilets would remind me of fat rich royalty, but that's never what I would crave anyway.

I think Americans drive on the right?

But I hadn't even looked at the direction...

@M.A.R. The Shah had gold telephones, IIRC.

@Cerberus I do think that America's cultural exports tend to include a fair amount of conspicuous displays of wealth, more than is considered acceptable in America itself.

@M.A.R. Old money does not have golden lavatories, or at least not nowadays...

Particularly if you aren't seen as having obtained that wealth through "hard work."

@alphabet Sure. But still, even then Americans at home are far more about money.

So even "old money" types have to pretend that they got their money by being incredibly industrious.

In any case, gold appliances are the crudest, least sophisticated display of wealth imaginable. It's what you do if you have money and no taste or imagination.

@Cerberus How so?

@Robusto The really rich people pretend to be poor in public.

@Cerberus my point is people not living in areas where Transporter 2 is shot think that looking good while driving an Audi is a thing only for people from such areas

@alphabet That may be an exaggeration. They may do so in absolute public, but not among their peers.

@Robusto Yeah, I mean when not around other rich people.

What do you think all those limousines in Manhattan are for? They're a way to insulate the rich from hoi polloi.

For the longest time I had the feeling limousines had something to do with lemons

> < (i) Anglo-Norman and Middle French pompe (French pompe) splendid display (c1165 in Old French), vanities of the world (c1350; chiefly in plural), a solemn procession (a1502), and its etymon (ii) classical Latin pompa ceremonial procession, ostentation, display < ancient Greek πομπή a sending away, solemn procession, parade, display < πέμπειν to send, of unknown origin.

The Farsi import is "limoo", which doesn't help

> < French bombe, < Spanish bomba (see first quot.), probably < bombo ‘a bumming or humming noise’ < Latin bombus. The word is thus ultimately identical with boom. Compare the earliest English instance bome, directly < Spanish; also 17th cent. bombo from Spanish or Italian Variously pronounced: see the rhymes: in the British army /bʌm/ Listen to pronunciation was formerly usual.

So, no.

@tchrist Awww, shucks.

I mean, if a friend of mine got a luxury car because their family's money meant they could afford one, I think we'd all relentlessly mock them for it.

I do think it depends on the region. In California I think they put up with that sort of stuff more.

@alphabet I could drive a luxury car, but I don't. I just don't get any joy from ostentation.

Please don't commit an etymological crime by bombing the Pompidou Center.

@tchrist Noted.

@Robusto Well, yeah, and doing so would be tacky as hell.

@tchrist Can I still set my sites on the CNIT?

Cnidarians need not apply.

@alphabet They talk about it a lot. They consider it more important. They tell each other how much money they make. They love buying things. Etc.

@M.A.R. I got the general point (though not this message haha).

@Cerberus That may be something you only see in the media. In my experience, it's generally considered quite offensive to ask someone how much money they make or even to offer that information unsolicited.

@alphabet I know there is of course variation. But on average the difference is pretty clear.

Watch some videos by Americans who have moved to Europe, for example.

It is the whole society.

Even De Tocqueville already noticed this in the 19th century.

@Cerberus I dunno. Maybe it depends on where you're from in the US or something. I think there's kind of a taboo against talking too much about your financial situation, especially if you're rich.

@alphabet Again, that does not contradict what I said.

It is about more v. less, not black versus white.

Yes, Americans are by and large materialistic, and large swaths of the society do measure their worth by houses and cars and the like. But that is not all Americans.

Of course.

Just as there are plenty of materialistic Europeans.

Though American influence plays some part in that, we have always had our own nouveau riche too.

And espère-riche...

@Robusto Maybe it's just that I reflexively dislike those people so much that I end up in social circles with relatively few of them.

That would seem quite likely.

I am the same.

People who play those sorts of status games mostly succeed in making themselves look incredibly dumb. Especially when they try to make shows of erudition.

@alphabet You are fortunate to live in the state that has the smartest people in the country. They do pride themselves on their homes and, privately, their wealth, but they're less likely to do so with crude ostentation. They're just more sophisticated about it is all.

@Robusto Yeah, I do think that that sort of "crude ostentation" is somewhat rarer here than in other parts of the country.

And it's always worse in certain ultra-wealthy suburbs.

@Cerberus They do. I mean American branded cars built for wealthy people living in some part of the left handed Commonwealth.

OK.

@jlliagre You mean Ireland?

@Robusto I don't think there was that much American cars in post-war Ireland. They were too wide for the narrow roads there.

Breton verb of the day: gregachiñ. To speak unintelligibly. Lit. to speak Greek.

@jlliagre So what other left-side-of-the-road-driving countries are there in the Commonwealth now since Brexit?

@Robusto Brexit had no effect on the Commonwealth. Many of the current Commonwealth countries still drive on the left side of the road, a notable exception being Canada.

Commonwealth

Yeah.

I didn't know Papua New Guinea was in the Commonwealth.

@jlliagre Yeah, I was talking about Europe vs. Britain, but I guess I spaced that one.