English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:07

@DannyuNDos How does that differ from a mandarin or a tangerine?

Dannyu NDos

Dunno; just looked up to mandarins and tangerines, and they both look like 귤 gyul to me.

Robusto

00:42

@DannyuNDos The text size in chat is so small I thought that was some form of 言.

Dannyu NDos

Lmao

jlliagre

@tchrist Misère? Why not économiseur/économie/œconomia/οἰκονομία?

Robusto

Blossom Puzzle, March 25
Letters: E H I N L O S
My score: 391 points
My longest word: 13 letters
💐 💮 🏵 🌸 🌺 🌻 🌷 🌼 🌹 💐 💮 🏵 🌸

tchrist

01:00

@jlliagre Sure, their respective etyma are both ancient but miser was lifted untouched from Latin, whereas economizer never had a verb to go with oeconomia, oeconomicus, οἰκονομία, οἰκονόμος let alone an agent noun derived from that verb. It didn't need to, because the management bit was in the nomos part of the Greek, and Latin never reverbed this into something new like English et alios have.

jlliagre

@tchrist Sorry, I misread your posting.

tchrist

The other word that the (O)E one always brings to mind is the Ecumen, œcumene, Écoumène, οἰκουμένη for the civilized world. Both start with something from οἰκέω and οἶκος, but the Ecumen never had a Latin version.

So economy > economize > economizer all happened within English.

CowperKettle

@NickAlexeev I don't know where I got it from originally, most likely bought in a store. I haven't been in an obshepit canteen for a long time ))

tchrist

@DannyuNDos Well yes; mandarins and clementines and satsumas are all from the tangerine set not from the orange set.

CowperKettle

@NickAlexeev I'll try a bicycle, I only should order some anti-theft alarm to make hue and cry if someone touches the bicycle

tchrist

01:10

@DannyuNDos The preserved "mandarin orange" segments like @CowperKettle showed are certainly tangerines of one sort or another. In this country, they are usually actually satsumas, originally a Japanese cultivar that's hard to get fresh but easy to get tinned/canned/potted/stuck in plastic for kids.

Satsumas are my very favorite of all citrus, perhaps because of the childhood memories of those little segments available year round, unlike the fresh ones.

Old cold jello molds with mandarin oranges in them for picnics.

Or salads.

But you could make them of any mandarin you please.

Citrus names sometimes get lost in translation.

I have both fresh mandarins sitting on my kitchen table and unsugared preserved ones in little containers in the cupboard.

Dannyu NDos

That said... ever eaten a lemon by its own?

tchrist

Of course.

Dannyu NDos

What about a calamansi?

tchrist

But preferably a Meyer lemon, which is actually half lemon and half mandarin. But then again, a lemon is really half lime and half something else, maybe orange or cumquat.

Dannyu NDos

I've drunk calamansi juice, and it was even sourer than lemon.

tchrist

01:16

@DannyuNDos Not sure what that is.

Oh.

Yes, by accident once.

Dannyu NDos

Triangle of U is almighty, in this regard.

tchrist

It was served to me once with fresh fish in Santa Catarina in far southern Brazil. I mistook its orange color for a mandarin, but it is actually a very sour lime.

> Calamansi is a hybrid between kumquat (formerly considered as belonging to a separate genus Fortunella) and another species of Citrus (in this case probably the mandarin orange).

> Citrus × meyeri, the Meyer lemon (Chinese: 梅爾檸檬; pinyin: méiěr níngméng),[1] is a hybrid citrus fruit native to China. It is not a lemon, but is instead a cross between a citron and a mandarin/pomelo hybrid.[2]

Those are very tasty.

> The origin of the lemon is unknown, though lemons are thought to have first grown in Assam (a region in northeast India), northern Myanmar, or China.[2][failed verification] A genomic study of the lemon indicated it was a hybrid between bitter orange (sour orange) and citron.

Around the world there are countless forms of citrus, but few indeed are available worldwide let alone in every market.

@DannyuNDos Not sure that there are more Brassica or more Citrus.

So many of these come to us out of prehistory, some perhaps from pre-Homo.

jlliagre

@tchrist Right. I wrongly interpreted your 'or' so thought you wrote 'economizer' might have been built from misère, which makes no sense. Economiser was possibly coined by Stirling in 1816 or at least popularized by him although 'economize'/*économiser* have existed for a long time.

tchrist

@jlliagre Oh hahah.

> A change in climate conditions during the Late Miocene (11.63 to 5.33 mya)
resulted in a sudden speciation event. The species resulting from this
event include the citrons (Citrus medica) of South Asia; the pomelos
(C. maxima) of Mainland Southeast Asia; the mandarins (C. reticulata),
kumquats (C. japonica), mangshanyegan (C. mangshanensis), and ichang
papedas (C. cavaleriei) of southeastern China; the kaffir limes
(C. hystrix) of Island Southeast Asia; and the biasong and samuyao
(C. micrantha) of the Philippines.[3][4]

Dannyu NDos

And a fun fact: Triangle of U can occur in animals as well. Pampas fox is one example.

tchrist

01:26

@DannyuNDos What do you mean, that they're polyploid? That's as rare in Animalia as it is common in Plantae. But the South American canid speciation is very interesting.

Dannyu NDos

Ah, sorry, I meant the hybrid of them and dogs, called "dogxims".

tchrist

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3568761

> Relative to other members of Canidae, these species have high diploid complements (2n greater than 64) consisting of largely acrocentric chromosomes.

> The Giemsa banding patterns of seven canid species, including the grey
wolf (Canis lupus), the maned wolf (Chrysocyon brachyurus), the bush dog
(Speothos venaticus), the crab-eating fox (Cerdocyon thous), the grey
fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus), the bat-eared fox (Otocyon megalotis),
and the fennec (Fennecus zerda), are presented and compared. Relative to
other members of Canidae, these species have high diploid complements (2n
greater than 64) consisting of largely acrocentric chromosomes. They show

Canidae crosses work much better if their chromosome counts match. Otherwise you have to invoke Haldane's Law.

As we do with these domestic cats they've been crossing with wilder cats.

That's why only the females are fertile.

At first.

Haldane's rule

Haldane's rule is an observation about the early stage of speciation, formulated in 1922 by the British evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane, that states that if — in a species hybrid — only one sex is inviable or sterile, that sex is more likely to be the heterogametic sex. The heterogametic sex is the one with two different sex chromosomes; in therian mammals, for example, this is the male. == Overview == Haldane himself described the rule as: When in the F1 offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the heterozygous sex (heterogametic s...

> Unlike other mammals, monotremes have more than two different sex chromosomes: The platypus has five pairs. Short-beaked echidnas have four pairs plus one female-only chromosome.

> The wolf-like canids are a group of large carnivores that are genetically closely related because they all possess 78 chromosomes, arranged in 39 pairs and are karyologically indistinguishable from each other.[1][2]: p279 [3] The group includes the genera Canis, Cuon, Lupulella and Lycaon.

Canid hybrid

Canid hybrids are the result of interbreeding between the species of the subfamily Caninae. == Genetic considerations == The wolf-like canids are a group of large carnivores that are genetically closely related because they all possess 78 chromosomes, arranged in 39 pairs and are karyologically indistinguishable from each other.: p279 The group includes the genera Canis, Cuon, Lupulella and Lycaon. The members are the domestic dog (C. lupus familiaris), gray wolf (C. lupus), dingo (C. lupus dingo), coyote (C. latrans), golden jackal (C. aureus), African wolf (C. lupaster), Ethiopian wolf...

> When the differences in number and arrangement of chromosomes is too great, hybridization becomes less and less likely. Other members of the wider dog family, Canidae, such as South American canids, true foxes, bat-eared foxes, or raccoon dogs which diverged 7 to 10 million years ago, are less closely related to the wolf-like canids, have fewer chromosomes and cannot hybridize with them.[3] (recently proven, partly incorrect, see pampas fox with dog below)

@DannyuNDos Yes, that's weird and we hadn't thought it possible.

> Crossings between canids of a different genus is extremely rare. In 2021, a female canid with unusual phenotypic characteristics was found in Vacaria City, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil. DNA analysis indicates that the canid was a hybrid between a pampas fox and a domestic dog.[26] Dubbed a 'Dogxim' or 'graxorra',[27] this finding is the first documented case of hybridisation detected between these two species.[26]

> Genetically, the gray fox often clusters with two other ancient lineages: The east Asian raccoon dog (Nyctereutes procyonoides) and the African bat-eared fox (Otocyon megalotis). The chromosome number is 66 (diploid) with a fundamental number of 70.

> The chromosome number ranges from 2n = 34 plus a few B chromosomes in the red fox (Vulpes vulpes) to 2n = 78 in the domestic dog (Canis familiaris) and the gray wolf (Canis lupus).

> The arctic fox has 50 chromosomes (25 per set), and the commonred fox has 38 chromosomes (19 per set). These species can interbreed to produce viable but infertile offspring.

Grey foxes and red foxes just aren't very closely related at all, let alone to arctic foxes.

CowperKettle

@tchrist I also learned that tangerine segments fully stripped of their skin are called supremes.

Supreme (cookery)

The term supreme (also spelled suprême) used in cooking and culinary arts refers to the best part of the food. For poultry, game and fish dishes, supreme denotes a fillet. == Chicken == In professional cookery, the term "chicken supreme" (French: suprême de volaille) is used to describe a boneless, skin-on breast of chicken. If the humerus bone of the wing remains attached, the cut is called "chicken cutlet" (côtelette de volaille). The same cut is used for duck (suprême de canard), and other birds. Chicken supremes can be prepared in many ways. For example, supremes à la Maréchale are treated...

tchrist

01:43

Yes, suprême de volaille was known to me. I don't know that I've seen it in English, though.

Fancy expensive restaurants here that use such terms just leave the French. :)

CowperKettle

Yes. "You can't serve the patron rusks on a plate at $8, but you can serve him croutons for that price easily" (from a Russian comedy movie; a popular quote)

Дефлопе и крутон - официант (О чем говорят мужчины) [+3D]

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tchrist

Just wait till you run into gaufrettes on a menu. :) I mean the pommes de terre ones.

Not to be confused with stroopwafels.

jlliagre

02:00

Hilarious French.

jlliagre

02:17

alphabet

02:55

My Furry Friends.

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CowperKettle

Expression of the day: enshittification of science

M.A.R.

05:14

Trump and Biden seemingly do not even know what they are for. Trump was in favor of banning it on August 6, 2020, and Biden was against banning it on June 9, 2021. It is like a game of musical chairs. — Obie 2.0 7 hours ago

CowperKettle

08:13

I should find some no-skill work in the first half of the day, and do delivery work in the second half. Maybe this way I'll be able to earn enough to stay alive.

CowperKettle

08:28

As it goes, I ordered some medications today, because I've run out of them, and I only have 540 rubles to last until Friday, when the next batch of salary comes.

Dannyu NDos

in The Garbage Collector, 41 mins ago, by Eldritch Conundrum

I call it facade because english doesn't have ç. A word's spelling changes when it's adopted as part of another language

Is this true?

The latter part

CowperKettle