English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

00:15

@alphabet yes that's what I was trying to get at to show @CowperKettle the difference. You just don't have apartment highrises like that in a similar commercial area (Boston, Chicago, LA, any US area)

Unless I'm wrong of course.

The Boston clip you gave... Could be a counterexample... But I think that it is too dense to compare with Tyumen

alphabet

@Mitch Exactly; the difference is that in Boston the buildings are more densely packed, without big gaps between them, and they're 4-5 stories, not 10-20.

In most of the city, of course.

Mitch

00:38

More importantly, I just had a square of 100% chocolate.

At first it tasted a little bitter and metallic, and then I passed through the candy-cane forest, dove into the jub-jub cave, traipsed the line at infinity, and a small glass of milk finished it off.

Robusto

My 27-year experience of Boston & Environs was of a general air of shabbiness. Things were old and getting older, and even if they were well kept up they still had a rundown air to them.

Mitch

@Robusto I agree... poor car emissions standards for so long?

Robusto

@Mitch Most of Chicago is not made up of apartment high-rises. The most common living quarters are two- and three-flat apartment buildings, plus three-story courtyard buildings that can house 18 individual dwellings.

Mitch

00:53

To be clear, there is only one line at infinity.

Robusto

Daily Sequence Octordle #742
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🔟🕚
Score: 58

jlliagre

Another Rebel:

David Bowie - Rebel Rebel

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Robusto

@jlliagre A fine one, but for a girl.

@Mitch ^ This is an example of common-wall two-flats on the Near North Side. I happened to live in the one on the left, 2nd floor, quite a while ago when the neighborhood was largely Puerto Rican. I saw a guy shot outside my window there.

Here's a six-flat courtyard.

I lived there as well for a time.

And an 18- or 24-flat. I can't genuinely tell from the picture.

I lived in one of those from birth to about 3-1/2

@Mitch Yeah, but it's a really looooong one. And you have to wait in it for a loooooong time.

Mitch

01:22

@Robusto I lived with n a place like that for a few years

Robusto

@Mitch What part of town?

Mitch

@Robusto Near-North? Like Merchandise Mart area? Or is that River North? What is Near North? Is that west or north of River North?

Robusto

@Mitch Merchandise Mart is downtown. Just outside the Loop.

Across the river, though, so it's probably River North (we didn't have that distinction when I was living there).

Mitch

@Robusto near Broadway and Diverse

Robusto

Well, that's Near North. And it's "Diversey" with a "y" in case you forgot.

It's where Broadway splits off from Clark Street.

The Merchandise Mart is miles to the south.

Mitch

01:34

@Robusto MM is on the north Bank of the east-west part of the Chicago River and I only remember there are mostly highrise apartments for living around there, not the two story apartments in your picture.

@Robusto when in doubt, it's a typo.

Robusto

The Merchandise Mart is near a part of the city that I don't see you living in. East of that, no biggie. But west is very run-down and dangerous.

@Mitch I played the odds.

Mitch

@Robusto what's an intersection near that picture you gave?

Robusto

@Mitch Which picture?

The middle one?

That one is Newport between Halsted and Sheffield. It's an east-west street at 3400 north, midway between Belmont and Addison (quite close to Wrigley Field).

Robusto

02:00

Some things have changed for the worse. The Ravenswood "L" train is now ... the Brown Line. Sheesh.

Dannyu NDos

02:13

I've never seen they frying tofu.

Robusto

Mitch

02:41

@Robusto nah I meant this one, the 'Near North' one

Robusto

@Mitch You mean the one by Diversey and Broadway?

That is a crossroads coordinate.

Mitch

@Robusto The two story with red brick

Robusto

@Mitch It's 2053 N. Seminary, close to Sheffield and Armitage. 2000 north and 1100 west.

Mitch

Got it... Lincoln Park

Robusto

lay->laid, pay->paid, play->plaid?

Mitch

02:51

Near DePaul

Robusto

@Mitch Yes, about three blocks south. Hence "Seminary" ...

Mitch

Leona's

Robusto

But it's not really Lincoln Park, now is it? Too far west, though the realtors do call it that.

Mitch

I'd call it that

I'm no real estate agent though

Yeah DePaul is getting a little west

I don't know what you'd call that

Robusto

Mitch

02:55

Nice windows

Robusto

Now there's a genuine Lincoln Park address. Arlington, just west of Clark and just north of Fullerton.

I lived there too.

Mitch

Yeah nice

Robusto

It wasn't too nice back when I lived there.

Mitch

Are there any neighborhoods that are -not- gentrifying?

Robusto

All of Lincoln Park has been completely gentrified. I could have bought the two-flat on Seminary for $29,000 way back when. Now I don't think you could touch it for a million.

@Mitch Yeah. The ones that are rotting.

Mitch

02:57

@Robusto which ones are those?

Robusto

Holy Cow, the 2053 N. Seminary address is pegged at $2.1 million according to Zillow.

@Mitch The ones in non-white neighborhoods. And you knew the answer to that one.

Mitch

@Robusto this is what time travel would be good for

@Robusto to be precise, not nonwhite anymore

Robusto

@Mitch Yeah. but I didn't have $29,000 back then.

Mitch

Dang

Robusto

In fact, I laughed at the price. "Who'd pay $29,000 for that thing?" (It was a slum dwelling at the time, more or less.)

But it's gone up, what, two orders of magnitude in the meantime?

Mitch

03:02

Chicago...still cheaper than Boston!

Well maybe not Lincoln Park

Robusto

Well, I'm not so sure.

Dannyu NDos

03:16

I just noticed that I can count laws but I cannot count chaos.

Laurel

03:46

@Robusto $29k for a habitable domicile????

Nowadays that would only make sense as the amount a person pays per year for their rent/mortgage

CowperKettle

04:29

I upped the dose of lamotrigine, and had a dream in which I was inside a Czech children's movie about how some people could fly, if they had a piece of paper with a special spell, which they needed to pronounce; or had a magic object, like a pair of glasses.

The movie was about the Soviet times, but it was shot in the 1990s

Robusto

05:07

@Laurel You must realize that five decades ago I could live on $165 a month working part-time while going to school full-time. That included rent, food, and transportation. You could buy a beer for 50¢ in the city, a pitcher for $2. If you went outside the city you could get a beer for a quarter and a picked egg for 10¢. It was a simpler time, at least monetarily. So $29K seemed like an unimaginable sum.

alphabet

05:24

@Robusto It's not just inflation, of course. $165 in 1974 dollars is $1068 today. Imagine spending that much on rent now and still having money left over.

$29K then is about $191K now. Nowhere near median house prices in the Boston area today.

M.A.R.

05:40

My trustworthy friends in the magic box tell me this is the fall of the western civilization.

Soon, I, by virtue of meekness, will inherit the world.

CowperKettle

They should translate Nate Hagens' YouTube channel into Farsi then, and broadcast him. There's a lot about the fall of civilization

Leon Simons: "Aerosol Demasking and Global Heating" | The Great Simplification #105

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CowperKettle

06:36

Mindscape 265 | John Skrentny on How the Economy Mistreats STEM Workers

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CowperKettle

09:00

Hugo of the day: What is Art?

> L'art, c'est la gloire et la joie.
Dans la tempête il flamboie ;
Il éclaire le ciel bleu.
L'art, splendeur universelle,
Au front du peuple étincelle,
Comme l'astre au front de Dieu.

L'art et le peuple I - Victor Hugo lu par Yvon Jean

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>
Штука — се радість і слава,
Блискавка в бурю іскрява,
Промінь небесний у мглі;
Штука — се ясність всесвітня,
Стежка народів завітна,
Зірка на божім чолі.

In Ukrainian by Ivan Franko

M.A.R.

09:39

Daily Octordle #743
7️⃣5️⃣
8️⃣🕚
🕛🔟
6️⃣4️⃣
Score: 63

Sloppy

M.A.R.

10:02

@CowperKettle they don't like nihilists or alarmists. This Hagens guy looks like he believes in dirty and gross things such as western science and environment and stuff.

Laurel

11:06

@Robusto $165 is an unimaginably small number for me lol. I have a friend who pays 2k a month for rent for a tiny apartment (maybe 700 sqft?), and she's not even in "the city" or any city at all

I'm the only person my age I know who owns something (a condo) and doesn't work at some sort of financial institution

Vikas

One can still live in $165 in India. 1 Room + Food + some transportation + some bill payments. It wouldn't be ideal though.

CowperKettle

65 square meters is not bad, one can fit a two-room flat into that.

Or even a three-room flat.

I'm having this weird slight numbness in the left part of the mouth and fingers of the left hand and two outer fingers of the left leg, again.

I think it's from some part of the brain being overactive (?) like an epileptic aura (?).

My lamotrigine is currently at 100 mg/day.

I feel more concentrated in my mind.

So it's a bit unexpected to have these symptoms surface again.

jlliagre

12:14

jlliagre

13:12

Don't take all of your furniture with you when you move from Australia to Hong-Kong!

Laurel

13:37

@Vikas If you're an American (or rather just someone working for an American company being paid like an American) you can live in India like you're upper class even if you're making a lower middle class salary by American standards

@CowperKettle It's not a bad place, it's just that nothing about it says "$2k/mo apartment" to me. She has a bedroom, a bathroom, a laundry area, and a wide open kitchen/living room/dining room, plus a balcony

Vikas

13:50

@Laurel Yeah

Also one good way to save on food is, buy items and cook on your own. Rather than ordering online daily.

Laurel

Yeah, that's true here too

One meal at a decent restaurant can be close in price to what I usually pay for groceries

alphabet

@Laurel I spend more than that on an even smaller apartment. Granted I'm in the city.

Laurel

14:13

The other thing is, she still has to drive to work and most other places she would want to go. There are restaurants on the first floor, but the one we went to seems to be like one level in price above Applebees or whatever so it's not even that great to go to lol

But I guess there is a bar there so we could get wasted enough to forget the cost of the apartment for the night and be able to walk back

Robusto

14:33

@alphabet That building is pegged at $2.1 million today.

@Laurel I also had two roommates in the 2nd floor 3-bedroom flat. So my share came out to about $55/mo.

Laurel

Damn

Robusto

Boston housing prices are definitely out of control, though.

Laurel

Housing prices in many places are out of control, some more than others, but it's pretty much across the board

We saw a homeless person a few blocks from my friend's apartment and I said that they might have a job (or several) and still not be able to afford to not be homeless :(

Robusto

Housing prices have always been prodigious, but now more than ever.

Wordle 962 5/6

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It's like Will Rogers said: "Buy land, they're not making it anymore."

M.A.R.

14:50

What's the minimum wage in America again? 30k a year?

Robusto

Min wage? Less than $20k/yr.

Officially it's like $7/hr, but I don't think anybody is getting that. Maybe ag workers, I don't know. But most places are paying probably $12 to $18 per hour at least.

Hourly wages can be approximated at $20k = $10/hr. 10 * 40 * 50 (wages * 40 hours * 50 weeks).

M.A.R.

@Robusto interesting, I think it's the opposite here. Workers in, say, construction work are probably officially paid less than the minimum wage.

Pharmacists are paid less than the official numbers too.

alphabet

The federal minimum wage is about $7.25/hr, but many states set a higher one; here it's $15.

Often people who aren't in the country legally get paid less than minimum wage, since they fear being deported if they report it.

Robusto

@alphabet Which is $30k/yr. Imagine trying to live on that in Boston or Chicago. Or LA or SF or Seattle.

Mitch

15:09

@Robusto Back in my day, the cost of living was so cheap they paid me to live there.

It was a -very- long time ago

Robusto

@Mitch Are you talking about prison wages?

Mitch

Dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

DNA was only just about to twist.

The Bg Bang was more of a whimper

@Robusto I got a lot of exercise there. All the digging through walls and crawling through sewer pipes.

What a time to be alive.

Nowadays, I won't get out of bed without a boba tea and avocado toast fed to me by my robot vacuum cleaner.

M.A.R.

OTOH, pharmacies don't make as much as the official numbers either

Mitch

Pandas trying to make themselves extinct - Funny fails compilation

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Lambie

15:43

@Mitch Isn't that just a tad yucky? Why do dinosaurs always roam?

Laurel

16:05

@alphabet You can also get paid less than minimum wage if you get tips (wait staff) or are severely(?) disabled (handicrafters)

M.A.R.

@Mitch you're very photogenic

Laurel

@Robusto I know some people who were making $10 per hour :/

jlliagre

@Robusto Pixel art? It looks like some arcade game sprite from the eighties.

alphabet

@Laurel In theory, if your (tipped) minimum wage plus the amount you get in tips is less than the normal minimum wage, your employer is required to make up the difference, so you still get paid at least the usual minimum wage. (In theory.)

Laurel

Yep that's true

jlliagre

16:13

Wordle 962 5/6

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⬛⬛🟨⬛⬛
⬛⬛🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Laurel

And I guess the severely disabled people are getting some sort of other financial support, albeit from the government, not their employer

Mitch

16:40

@M.A.R. What's black and white and red all over?

A blushing panda

@Lambie Poor housing? All those animals out there naked and homeless.

Lambie

16:51

@Mitch Won't you be my dinosaur? [heart emoji]

MetaEd

Wordle 962 3/6

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🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Vikas

17:44

@CowperKettle I found another B12 source for vegans. Heard about nutritional yeast? I read about it today. Thinking to try it.

Vikas

17:55

I am also seeing lot of Indian websites saying pickle contains B12. I couldn't find a single pickle so far on Amazon that contains B12. And some even claim it contains vitamin D. Bullshit?

CowperKettle

@Vikas Yes, I've read about it, and it must be good

> US Interest Payments on National Debt now Exceed US Defense Spending per Annum ($1.025T v. $1.021T)

Lambie

18:20

@Laurel Right, so did you see those answers in comments in that term you just answered on ELL (appear numbered). I tried to tell him and look at what he said there. It's too much. There are cases when it's ok but not in this one, imo.

Laurel

@Lambie I mean, I pretended to not see it when I was posting my answer lol

The tricky thing is that comment (and flag) culture varies by site. And on ELU/ELL it's widely seen as acceptable to leave an answer in the comments if you think the question should be closed (or think it will be closed).

Which is what seems to have happened here.

Unrelated, but it looks like close/reopen cycles are still happening: english.stackexchange.com/posts/618429/timeline. @alphabet, you voted to close this so I'm pinging you. Not sure where my thoughts on this are yet

Lambie

Yes, the close thing is true but ELL has too many close questions. And I happen to know it's because most of the answerers don't speak another language so they have trouble seeing it from the POV of a learner.

Laurel

Do you mean that ELL is closing too many questions?

Lambie

18:35

Yes, I do mean that. //I have never seen maltreat IN my LIFE. Even if it "exists". Sounds so French or Spanish to me: maltraiter and maltratar. It comes from the French in English, I would expect.

Laurel

While I really think OP on ELL should have explained what references they checked, when I looked it up I didn't think the answer was trivial to get from the dictionary considering that 1) the quoted sentence was kinda complicated grammar wise and 2) even after removing all those extraneous parts, the expression did not match what I found in the dictionary because the verb was different

But, unfortunately, there's not a good way to edit that into the ELL question, since I would have to put words in OP's mouth in a way that I'm not really comfortable with, since the answer IS in the dictionary if you're proficient enough to read it

@Lambie That question on ELU could really have used some context at least

Lambie

19:01

@Laurel There was an entire paragraph. It was pretty clear...This is the kind of thing I would not even look up. I know, that's just me.

Laurel

@Lambie I wasn't talking about from the dictionary, which I doubt has anything too useful. I mean why they're asking. Do they want to use a word in their own writing, for example? The type of answer I'd write for that is much different (perhaps a frame challenge) than if they were asking after seeing the word in a book

alphabet

@Laurel I agree with Joachim's comments on that one. If there are subtle nuanced differences in meaning, a dictionary would capture them. Posters on ELL in particular sometimes invent arbitrary nuanced distinctions between words based on their own intuitions, but those answers are purely a matter of personal taste and opinion.

@Laurel The dictionary entry quoted in the comments may or may not have been suitable for OP, but that's not really relevant to the close vote IMHO, since there are other dictionaries.

Laurel

@alphabet I guess the counter argument to that is that words that I know have a distinct nuance have basically the same definition and are listed as synonymous in dictionaries. Check it out yourself

@alphabet I'm not sure what side you're on here

alphabet

@Laurel Strongly disagree. Your perception of these nuances is very likely not shared with other native speakers. It's not a reliable source.

@Lambie Case in point: I think of "maltreat" as a fairly common word and wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear it. Intuition works like that; it differs too much between speakers to be considered reliable.

Laurel

@alphabet Aha, but that's why "difference between X and Y" can be good questions. However, the answers are often poor because people write mere opinions or cherry pick. However, you can use a tool like COCA to get a more objective answer

alphabet

19:16

@Laurel I'm saying: the problems with the OED entry quoted in the comments aren't relevant to the decision about whether to close it.

Laurel

We might be having a miscommunication because half these chat messages are about an unrelated post on ELL

alphabet

Oh sorry I only meant the ELU post you linked.

Laurel

Oop, the ELL post was closed: ell.stackexchange.com/a/347443/41273

alphabet

@Laurel Ah. That question seems suitable for ELL (but maybe not ELU), since a non-native speaker might not realize that "numbered" is a separate word from "to number" and thus might have difficulty figuring it out from a dictionary.

@Laurel Ah. The OP didn't ask about frequency, though; granted, to me the word seems so commonplace that I wouldn't have even bothered to consider that issue.

Laurel

@alphabet Yep, that's my thought exactly. On ELU, I expect people to be able to read longer dictionary entries and be able to combine more pieces (appear + half of the idiom)

@alphabet Well, I didn't talk about frequency per se either. You can use their collocates feature to uncover some interesting patterns

alphabet

19:21

@Laurel Yeah. There was an interesting ELU post about the phrase "have no truck with looking back" that confused me for a while (from context it sounded like "truck" meant the vehicle) which I think was absolutely suitable for ELU despite "have no truck with" being in the dictionary.

@Laurel Eh, I don't think an objective interpretation of that would even be achievable, much less discovered in the answers, and the salient differences between the words are covered in a much reliable source (a dictionary) anyway.

Laurel

@alphabet That was an etymology question tho: english.stackexchange.com/q/589884/191178

alphabet

@Laurel I meant this one--which I think was incorrectly closed as a duplicate: english.stackexchange.com/questions/606986/…

Incidentally, voting to reopen that

Laurel

@alphabet I think you've never seen a good answer using the collocates data to answer a somewhat subjective question. For example, I was trying to use COCA to answer "does X have racist connotations?" but I never actually got to post the answer sadly

alphabet

@Laurel Subjective questions are inherently unsuitable for this site, and (unlike your example regarding racism) I don't think an objective answer is possible here.

Laurel

The answer to the racism question was yes, though the etymology of the word would give no indication of that (ie, it's not a racial slur and is used sometimes in a way that's not related to race)

@alphabet "There is no real difference" would also be an answer

alphabet

19:29

@Laurel How could you support that, besides just quoting a dictionary or giving personal opinions?

Incidentally, @Lambie, regarding the unreliability of intuitions, maltreat is indeed very common relative to related words: books.google.com/ngrams/…

About 1/4 as common as mistreat at present. The comparison to ill-treat may be misleading since Ngrams can incorrectly misinterpret punctuation.

Laurel

@alphabet Collocate data, showing they're used in exactly the same contexts

alphabet

@Laurel Again, hard to interpret that objectively. Use in similar contexts does not always imply similar meaning, or vice versa.

The words "three" and "four" are also used in similar contexts. Meanwhile "sus" and "suspicious" are used in very different ones.

Laurel

@alphabet I guess the evidence that three and four are not the same comes from the data that shows that they collocate with each other. Probably. You didn't do a collocate search and neither did I, and I wonder which one of us the data would really agree with

I've thought about this quite a bit and this is definitely an issue that I've thought of too, just maybe more for an example like couch/loveseat where the difference is more subtle

Mitch

@alphabet "If there are subtle nuanced differences in meaning, a dictionary would capture them" - I strongly disagree with that.

alphabet

@Mitch I don't doubt that individuals may have opinions about such differences, but I don't think they usually generalize enough to be considered reliable sources of information that would be useful for OPs.

Mitch

19:43

Dictionary entries, even from the best ones, are geared for concision and being 'not wrong', and aren't expressly designed to distinguish with other words.

So I think any kind of 'what's the difference between...' is not always answerable by a dictionary. And even if it is, it may be too subtle in the definitions.

alphabet

@Laurel This is a general problem that shows up in machine learning; "increase" and "decrease," despite being antonyms, are used in similar contexts since things that can increase can usually also decrease and vice versa.

@Mitch So what reliable source could answer it? Maybe extensive and careful corpus research, I guess, but even then I'm skeptical.

Mitch

Just because (I'm not speaking to you) the answer is obvious to you doesn't mean it's not a good question. Let somebody answer it, it doesn't hurt you -or- the site..

alphabet

In this case it's the opposite issue; to me it seems obvious that the question, if not answered by a dictionary, is impossible to answer in a way that isn't opinion-based.

Mitch

There are lots of questions that are not explicitly laid out in references already.

alphabet

I'd also be a bit more lenient toward that question if it explained why a dictionary didn't help and asked something more specific.

Mitch

19:50

I feel like this sort of reasoning leads to all questions being closed. Either they're opinions (no reliable reference) or they're LMGTFY.

Just let them lie (or even lay) and let the new people answer them.

alphabet

It's moreso this specific kind of question, ones that (it seems to me) the "answerable by a dictionary" close reason is specifically intended for.

But this one I'm more OK with, since OP at least tried a dictionary and explained why it didn't help:

1

Q: What's the meaning of "sing'lar"?

And a mighty sing'lar and pretty place it is, as ever I saw in all the days of my life!" said Captain Jorgan, looking up at it. The term is mentioned in the first line of Charles Dickens's A Message from the Sea. I know that it's an archaic word but I can't find it in any dictionary.

Mitch

Here's a thing: stop closing questions. If you get the urge to close a question there are some things you can do
1) edit the question to make it better
2) answer the question implied rather than the literal one given. That's what advice columnists do.
3) too much trouble? leave it alone and let somebody else try to answer it.

Laurel

@alphabet But ChatGPT figured it out…

Mitch

People just want to press buttons put in front of them. An active positive choice is to not press the button.

You know what -I'm- upset about?

Laurel

@Mitch I hope you realize how absurd "stop closing questions" is. I don't want a repeat of that Wendy's question. I think you mean "stop closing questions as opinion based" which is a lot more reasonable

Mitch

20:04

The Nicki/Meghan controversty has been supplanted by the Jay-Z/Taylor controversy.

-These- are the things questions should be asked about.

@Laurel Some questions need to be closed, yes.

Laurel

If you look at what "opinion-based" was originally intended for, it's questions like "what's your favorite word?" which have no academic value

Mitch

Wait..which Wendy's quesiton?

M.A.R.

Normal singular controversies don't cut it anymore? People are tag teaming it?

Laurel

Aug 20, 2023 at 3:51, by alphabet

0

Q: When did the wendy's in levittown ny open for the first time?

This wendy's is located in the nassau mall, it used to be a Roy Rogers but i wonder when the restaurant became a wendy's

food

Mitch

@Laurel That's what opinion means

Laurel

20:05

@Mitch That's just your opinion, man

Mitch

@M.A.R. naw man, it's meta-controversies

@Laurel I don't know if I should star that or just a high five

@Laurel 🙌

M.A.R.

No Lebowski jiffs? Come on

Mitch

@Laurel ok yes totally off-topic, not even on the off-on topic dimension

Feb 3 at 20:00, by Robusto

@Idon'tknowwhoIam. I am a reference. But now you're asking me to do some work, and I decline.

M.A.R.

But when did the Wendy's in Lewittown NY open for the first time?

You can't leave us hanging like that

Mitch

@M.A.R. googles

googles some more

one more tiktok

OK I've seen the whole internet and it's not out there.

Ergo it's always been there.

wait let me check the internet again...

...

Nope, still nothing

Wait... it's -Levittown- not -Lewittown.

starts search all over again

I'll be back in a minute, I'm gonna drive down to Levittown and ask around.

M.A.R.

20:13

@Mitch pfft. Pffffft. Back in my day when we googled something we tried to decipher the squiggly and sharp shapes to understand the messages the past had left for the future. Now it's all to go to TikTok or YouTube shorts

Mitch

I've seen -all- the TikTok and Youtube shorts and trust me the answer is not there.

Laurel

@M.A.R. I can't believe you would ask a new question like this when we haven't even resolved the one about Levittown

Mitch

You're welcome.

Laurel

There are several Levittowns too

Mitch

@Laurel My mind just stopped

M.A.R.

20:16

@Laurel he was Lewit before he got all rich and snobby

jlliagre

20:44

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Robusto

@jlliagre Haha, I didn't notice. But you're right.

jlliagre

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Robusto

@jlliagre I hope it's that easy today.

M.A.R.

@Robusto if you're lucky it is.

Robusto

Luck always plays a part.

jlliagre

20:57

In everything.

Robusto

I skipped the Worldle today, because I'm not interested in flyspeck islands.

M.A.R.

Well, I mean it's fixated on a couple of letters.

Robusto

Hmm, NYT SB accepts coiffed but not coiff or coiffe.

Robusto

21:22

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I fucked up.

Mitch

@Robusto Did you try 'coif'?

Robusto

There you go!

A whole point.

jlliagre

> Let's quaff carouses to this gentleman.

Robusto

Pretty clouds on my ride today.

@jlliagre Sounds like Falstaff.

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Ho-hum. Not my day.

jlliagre

21:42

@Robusto Close, from Kiss me, Kate inspired by The Taming of the Shrew: And quaffe carowses to our Mistresse health.

Robusto

@jlliagre Nice.

jlliagre

@Robusto It's darker here:

Robusto

Definitely Falstaffian.

@jlliagre That's what you get for living ~100° of longitude away from me.

‘The situation has become appalling’: fake scientific papers push research credibility to crisis point

@Mitch ^

jlliagre

@Robusto Yes, I'm convinced one day some paper will promote Oreo as a treatment.

Robusto

Too late.

jlliagre

21:52

@Robusto My hour will come!

Robusto

@jlliagre Tout à l'heure pour moi !

M.A.R.

@Robusto I've seen these 'paper mills' shamelessly advertised in the city center

Robusto

22:16

@M.A.R. And it's only going to get worse with AI getting into the mix.

Mitch

22:34

@Robusto It's complicated.

MetaEd

some of us can see in the dark

Robusto

@MetaEd Yeah, but it's all pixelated.

MetaEd

@Robusto that's how you know it's a simulation

Robusto

Thought it was a STEM at first.

Mitch

Outline of my TED talk:
- the Sokal Hoax 1996 - a paper intentionally written as a hodgepodge of postmodernist phrasings unknowingly accepted for publication
- '75% of all medical paper results false' Ioannidis 2005 the start of the replicability crisis
- Chinese and Indian no-peer-review 'academic' journals proliferate
- computer generated paper unknowingly accepted for publication in a CS journal 2005
- "More than 120 bogus scientific articles have been published in peer-reviewed publications) from 2008 to 2013" (2014)

But the organization of vetting for academic papers (journals and conference papers) should prevent a large change in scale for what academics accept. The papers still have to go through people and the scale of that hasn't changed. Will the AI-produced papers fool the reviewers more now? Possibly, and maybe moreso in the humanities, but not by a lot.

There -will- be a glut of papers on the web by sources that aren't well known. Things like H-index for individuals and impact factor for a journal should make people more likely to listen to papers written by real people.

But that won't stop people who don't know what's going on (journalists, randos on the web who 'do their own research') from being substitute hypemen for charlatanry, like the ivermectin-Mr. Pillow guy.

Robusto

22:55

Those people ruin everything.

Mitch

A possible fallible intermediary gatekeeper might be science journallsts who have two competing self interests: 1) reliability (so that people will trust them and want to read them, and 2) popularity (eg science clickbait, if it yells it sells)

I think most of the scandal will come from academics getting tenure because of their publication record and then Ben Ackman doing a deep colonic on their past and finding out everything was computer generated.

Ben Ackman essentially got Claudine Gay (president of Harvard) to resign this way, for having plagiarized some passages in her PhD.

MetaEd

23:51

@Mitch So all I need to do is write a bogus paper and I can get a deep colonic from Ben Ackman?

"This paper is a lie."

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